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109 women prosecuted for false rape claims in five years, say campaigners
Charity accuses authorities in the UK of pursuing cases against rape complainants more aggressively than other countries
At least 109 women have been prosecuted in the last five years for making false rape allegations in the UK, according to campaigners who are calling for an end to what they claim is the aggressive pursuit of such cases.
On Tuesday, the charity
Women Against Rape
(War) is taking its campaign to the House of Commons, where some of those who have been jailed for lying about rape allegations will speak out against their treatment by the authorities.
The vast majority of the convictions in the last five years, 98 out of 109, involved prosecutions for perverting the course of justice – which carries a maximum life jail term – rather than the lesser offence of wasting police time, which has a maximum tariff of six months in prison or a fine.
A US law professor, who will be speaking at the Commons, said the UK’s stance on false allegations is more aggressive than in countries such as the United States, Canada and Australia. Prof Lisa Avalos, of the University of Arkansas, said false allegations in the US were dealt with as a misdemeanour offence, not a felony – and most women were not jailed if found guilty.
“In the course of my research I have not found any country that pursues these cases against women rape complainants in the way the UK does. The UK has an unusual approach and I think their approach violates human rights,” she said.
In 2012/13 there were 3,692 prosecutions for rape in England and Wales, resulting in 2,333 convictions.
War says it is supporting several women who say they were forced into retracting their rape complaint by police and then told they would be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice.
But Prof Claire Ferguson, a forensic criminologist from the University of New England in New South Wales, Australia, said it was not the norm to prosecute women for false allegations and that only those in the most egregious cases were charged, often where the accused man had spent time in custody.
“There have been cases in Australia where people have been accused, then nothing ever happens to the accuser, even though the police believe the report is indeed false.
“This can be hugely problematic and has led to many personal and professional issues for the accused [including suicide], even when the police have proven that they did nothing wrong and are not a sex offender,” she said.
Sandra Allen’s daughter
Layla Ibrahim
was seven months pregnant when she was jailed for three years for perverting the course of justice, after reporting a sexual assault by two strangers. “My daughter still maintains she was attacked,” said Allen, who will be addressing the public meeting. “We found out that within days of her reporting the attack the police started investigating my daughter.
“The police trot out these words that victims will be believed but I don’t think they ever bothered investigating what Layla was saying from the beginning. I will fight for her innocence to my dying day. What happened to her was beyond horrific, she suffered that night, she suffered in prison and she is still suffering.”
Ibrahim’s lawyer, Nigel Richardson, is preparing to submit her case to the Criminal Cases Review Commission, which pursues miscarriages of justice.
He said: “These cases seem to be pursued with a particular vehemence by the police and CPS [Crown Prosecution Service]. It’s as though lying to the police, as they would see it, demands a really heavy reaction. There comes a moment when the woman goes from being a victim in the eyes of the police to a suspect. She may not even know that has happened.”
Recent figures from Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, the police watchdog, revealed that more than a quarter of rape and sexual offences were not being recorded as crimes by forces and rape is a hugely under-reported offence.
Campaigners say that context has to be taken into account when police and prosecutors decide to pursue women for apparently lying about sexual attacks.
The director of public prosecutions, Alison Saunders, is scheduled to publish a statement on the case of Eleanor de Freitas, a rape complainant who killed herself on the eve of a prosecution for perverting the course of justice.
Lisa Longstaff, from War, said: “It’s appalling that when over 90% of rapists are getting away with it and two women a week are killed by partners or ex-partners, women who report violence are being imprisoned.
“From Rotherham to Westminster, police dismiss victims and press them to retract their allegations.
“We have repeatedly raised with the former and present DPP that biased and negligent rape investigations result in miscarriages of justice.”
The CPS said it did not collate figures on how many individuals have been prosecuted for allegedly making false rape allegations. A CPS review over 17 months from January 2011 to May 2012 revealed there had been 44 individuals prosecuted for perverting the course of justice or wasting police time, out of 159 charging decisions.
A spokeswoman said: “Cases of perverting the course of justice that involve allegedly false rape allegations are serious but rare. They are usually highly complex and sensitive often involving vulnerable parties, so any decision to charge is extremely carefully considered and not taken lightly.
“Such cases can only be brought where the prosecution can prove that the original rape allegation was false and the relatively few cases that are brought should not dissuade any potential victim from coming forward to report an assault.”
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49 people, 58 commentsBobSW1Recommend1811Of course they should be prosecuted, their names published and their reputations and careers destroyed - exactly the same as happened to the person they accused.
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ThatAncientSerpent BobSW1Recommend582This moving 'letter you always wanted to write' was in The Guardian on Saturday:
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jungle_economist ThatAncientSerpentThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs. -
mboy ThatAncientSerpentRecommend129I notice you have no recommends (until mine) for the link to that fascinating and moving letter. Brave of the Guardian to post that letter, and I suspect this horribly biased write-up today is a response to hostility from "War" and the like from posting it...
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chry5anth BobSW1Recommend54Of course they should be prosecuted, their names published and their reputations and careers destroyed - exactly the same as happened to the person they accused.But what if the false rape claim was made because the person was suffering from a mental illness? That requires some other kind of process, surely.
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RadkaVarhanova mboyRecommend152agree, that letter is one of the most valuable things ever posted on the guardian. I bet it annoyed a huge number of people and NGOs
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TurboMuncher chry5anthRecommend62The law already provides for this situation for any crime one might be accused of when suffering a mental illness, including false rape allegations - even killing somebody; sometimes referred to as diminished responsibility.In such situations, the person accused of lying (and only if the CPS decided there was enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury with sufficient prospects of a conviction that they had lied) would be assessed by mental health professionals for their fitness to stand trial / whether they have responsibility for their own actions.
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notdrowningjustwavin Slo27Recommend86If it turns out they are not lying, then it is a miscarriage of justice.This is not cases of one persons word against another, this is only in cases where it can be proved beyond all reasonable doubt that the complainant not only lied or exaggerated, but did in fact intend to deliberately pervert the course of justice and knowingly send an innocent person to prison.Perverting the course of justice applies to all false allegations with the same burden of proof.Mental illness should be treated better within the criminal justice system. To many genuinely ill poor people in prison and too many wealthy people can use it as a defence..... Not a reason to change the law.
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BobSW1 ThatAncientSerpentRecommend117It's tragic isn't it. Two kids lives messed up for no reason. Over the last 10 or so years we've become a society obsessed with black and white legal definitions of sex - one minute it's an evil act - the clock strikes twelve and it's what a lovely couple. Of course we need guidelines, but not the hysteria that pretends these things are written in stone.
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EarlyVictoria ThatAncientSerpentRecommend45That was incredibly sad. The girl who made the accusation was only 13.
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Drunken_Begger BobSW1Recommend62And serve the same sentence as what the person would have got if found guilty
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Speenhamland ThatAncientSerpentThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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Miguel Lobo chry5anthRecommend52But what if a rapist suffered from a mental illness? Arguably they all do. You can even argue that any criminal act is in some sense a mental disease. That does not mitigate the need for prosecution and penalties -- although, and this applies even for the most horrific crimes, we should be putting much more emphasis on rehabilitation and, when not possible, protection of the public rather than "retribution".
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davelon BobSW1Recommend103exactly right... I'm an Italian man in my early 40. In Italy, when I was about 23, a girl of my same age claimed that I raped her, in front a lot of friends of mine, even these was completely false allegations I never completely recovered, and now I still have problems in dating a lady.
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cannedmockduck mboyRecommend52I hate to say it, but if you have sex underage, and you're the guy doing the penetration, it constitutes rape or something almost as bad.
The girl of 13 may have been just as clumsy and awkward, but the bottom line is, if you're underage you've got too much weight against you, if you're the drunk guy.Yes it was a good letter. But his entire life, he says, has been ruined, and can now only trust male partners.I'd say there were lots of other things going on in his psyche. His sex life now- being with men, is nothing to do with her accusation.The police were probably heavy handed, and the two of them should be give compassionate counselling. But he WAS 15 and she was 13.13 years old. She's get branded a slut if she got pregnant at that age, and he gets branded a rapist if he has sex with her at that age. Take your pick and choose to not do something so stupid. His life story is not her fault. -
tarbrush Slo27Recommend54The issue is the name of the accused is always published, regardless of if they are innocent or guilty. Reputations and careers are ruined. Adoption prospects, working with vunerable people or children would be difficult/impossible. If the accused is in a profession where a CRB has to be filled in, this false allegation will result in the court case being revisited and reinvestigated by each new employer. The accused career and character will be destroyed with whispers within the workplace to colleges sharing newspaper articles, as well as female staff being over cautious around the innocent man.Using your argument, if a male is found guilty of rape by a court of law (on evidence supplied by the police), and is later found to be innocent should the accuser and police have their names released?I am not quite sure what this charity is saying....should false rape accusations not be prosecuted? in my opinion in rape cases, cases against the accused and the accuser should be investigated equally as aggressively, anyone who thinks otherwise cannot empathise with the innocent man who's life has been destroyed.
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ScotsExpat2014 ThatAncientSerpentRecommend21Very sad letter - I hope the girl who falsely accused him of rape reads it and feels ashamed of what she done.Women who falsely accuse someone of rape should be charged if it can be proven but not if there was any evidence (even it was not enough to secure a conviction) or if mental illness was a factor.That said, women need to feel confident enough to come forward when they have been raped.
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19lux cannedmockduckRecommend57It was statutory rape in the eyes of the law. The issue of whether the 13-year-old consented or not does not even qualify.
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sqrl BobSW1Of course they should be prosecuted, their names published and their reputations and careers destroyed - exactly the same as happened to the person they accused.I guess you don't believe in any rehabilitation component to criminal justice. Even Chris Grayling is in favour of that, if it can be delivered by private companies.
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Teotwawki BobSW1Recommend19Of course they should be prosecuted, their names published and their reputations and careers destroyed - exactly the same as happened to the person they accused.Agreed, and I can't help thinking that a lot of the destroyed reputations etc could be ameliorated somewhat if the alleged offenders weren't allowed to be named out of court until they were proven guilty and convicted. Of course the same anonymity should be granted to alleged false accusers until convicted.
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Lucysarah tarbrushRecommend23Of course it's important to remember that innocent in the eyes of the law doesn't necessarily mean innocent. Someone is found innocent if their guilt cannot be proved beyond reasonable doubt. It has to be that way or we'd be sending lots of innocent people to prison. However just because you can't prove something beyond reasonable doesn't mean it didn't happen. So lots of people found innocent in the eyes of the law will still be guilty. And given rape is so difficult to prove you would have to assume that many men accused of rape and found innocent are actually guilty. You certainly couldn't go assuming that in all these cases the woman was lying.
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Anteaus BobSW1This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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BobSW1 EarlyVictoriaRecommend39When I was 12/13 I was hauled into the headmasters office for calling a girl in my year a little slut. My mother was there, her mother was there, she was there. I was hauled over the coals for it. Then I was asked why I had said it. It was simple, she'd phoned me out of the blue the week before and asked me to lick her out. The headmaster turned to stone. He knew me well enough to know I didn't lie. The girl burst into tears. My mother burst into tears. I never heard another word about it!
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Pfutsch EarlyVictoriaRecommend13We have to stop branding children sluts.I'd be in favour of not branding anyone a slut. The word has no significance outside of a religious/moral framework that itself is irrelevant in our society.I can see the problems in convicting false rape accusers, because it's as difficult to prove that someone wasn't raped as the contrary. However when an alleged rapist serves jail time unjustly, it's perfectly acceptable to jail his accuser.But how do we prove any of this? The Cosby case has demonstrated that a large factor is one person's word against another, and how can we expect to reach the truth 30 years later?The judicial system is a mess when it comes to dealing with intimate matters between private individuals, and we should be looking at ways to improve that.
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onetoomanygrapes cannedmockduckRecommend20More than anything else that story screamed BAD parenting to me, from start to end! How come no one saw the psychological damage that would cause him and got him some help? Honestly, I'm even tempted to think it is not real.
Using this 13 year-old girl as the personification of a false rape accuser says a lot more about the people who're doing it than I suspect they would wanted to.. -
GabrielTheToad BobSW1Recommend32
Not for "no reason". For the reason that the girl falsely accused the boy of raping her.It's tragic isn't it. Two kids lives messed up for no reason. -
BobSW1 LucysarahRecommend16You also cannot go assuming that because someone accused someone, it is true. We have the court system which makes a decision based on the evidence. It's not perfect of course, but you have to accept the decisions unless further evidence comes to light or there is evidence of a miscarriage of justice. Or do you think innocent people should be persecuted until we get the result you agree with?
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HarryOfO LucysarahRecommend12However just because you can't prove something beyond reasonable doesn't mean it didn't happen. So lots of people found innocent in the eyes of the law will still be guilty. And given rape is so difficult to prove you would have to assume that many men accused of rape and found innocent are actually guilty. You certainly couldn't go assuming that in all these cases the woman was lying.Of course! But this isn't what we're talking about. Lack of evidence supporting an allegation does not equate to the presence of evidence that the allegation was fabricated and malicious, and in order to secure a conviction for perverting the course of justice you need the latter, not the former. You need to persuade a jury beyond reasonable doubt that the accuser did pervert the course of justice with a false allegation.
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BobSW1 GabrielTheToadRecommend13She doesn't live in a vacuum tho. I doubt the pressure to accuse the boy of rape came from her. It's pretty obvious it came from the parents or the police, who couldn't accept that the little angel perhaps wasn't such a little angel. I'd guess she was shamed into it. She's as much a victim of the situation as the boy. These things should never go to court.
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surfcat ThatAncientSerpentIndeed, and the guardian didn't have the guts to open comments, no doubt because disagreement with the usual narrative would follow.
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Snowhare BobSW1Or maybe the way rape cases are handled should be changed? The eye for an eye argument never loses popularity apparently, but it is possible to think of this outside of what currently happens. Perhaps the identity of the accused should be withheld until after prosecution, for instance.The problem is that women still are reluctant to report rape. If a woman is afraid of not being believed, the added threat of prosecution for not being believed is a major disincentive for reporting the rape. Women back out of prosecution for various reasons, but if a woman does back out, we shouldn't assume it's because she made it up. Basically, what I'm saying is that this suggestion of yours is worse than what already happens.
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oneladwithanopinion cannedmockduckImagine that the letter was from a rape victim who now says that she can only trust female partners.
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TheGreatRonRafferty 19luxRecommend19It was statutory rape in the eyes of the law. The issue of whether the 13-year-old consented or not does not even qualify.I guess you are American.There's no such thing as statutory rape in England.
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SoberThirdThought oneladwithanopinionRecommend18Sorry, but how would that help the boy who was falsely accused? It sounds like you only care about innocent victims when they are women (or girls).
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DavidBates 19luxRecommend13Statutory rape generally refers to an adult raping a minor - in this case they were both minors. It's also not a term used in many countries, including the UK as far as I'm aware.
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FoolsDream Slo27No. In the same way we wouldn't expect that for any wrongful imprisonment by the police.
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Imhavingafag surfcatAs far as I'm aware the Guardian never opens comments on "A Letter To........". No need to feel so hard done by.
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secretpeople BobSW1This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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peteran SnowhareThe problem is that women still are reluctant to report rape. If a woman is afraid of not being believed, the added threat of prosecution for not being believed is a major disincentive for reporting the rape. Women back out of prosecution for various reasons, but if a woman does back out, we shouldn't assume it's because she made it up.Okay, this point has been covered in previous posts, but it's worth repeating as you seem to have missed it. There is no added threat of prosecution for not being believed. Nobody assumes women who back out of rape prosecutions do so because they made up their allegations.For a charge of perverting the course of justice to succeed, the police would need to have evidence that the accused both actively lied (wasn't just mistaken or later became unsure) and intended to do so. The CPS would have to believe that there was a better than 50/50 chance that that evidence would result in a conviction. And a judge and jury would have to accept that evidence beyond reasonable doubt.That's a high burden of proof that would need to show deliberate and malicious lying. The fact that a rape accuser backed out of an earlier trial would be neither here nor there.
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oneladwithanopinion SoberThirdThoughtYou really did not get my point which was that rape affects people in a strong way. I was arguing against the idea that the boy in the letter should be unaffected in later years, hence my point that if you change the gender and it is a woman who says that she has trust issue after being raped then it is taken a lot more sympathetically.
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AGlassDarkly BobSW1exactly the same as happened to the person they accused.I forgot British justice operates under a principle of lex talionis.
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Gerald Bell chry5anthPerhaps, but how does that help repair the damage that's been done?
There needs to be a full public disclosure to exonerate the person falsely accused in the National Press for a start. -
Hedropsforglory onetoomanygrapesWTF? Bad parenting??Did you actually read the letter?Including the various references to foster placement?!
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toadwarrior chry5anthArguably anyone who commits a horrific crime is mentally ill. As an example someone who is sane doesn't think it's a good idea to kill someone.
Show 55 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 9:43pm -
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4 people, 4 commentsbulldogclipRecommend395said false allegations in the US were dealt with as a misdemeanor offence, not a felonyAnd therefore doesn't show up in crime statistics.
Clever.-
TurboMuncher bulldogclipRecommend625"said false allegations in the US were dealt with as a misdemeanor offence, not a felony"The term also massively downplays the consequences of the subject matter. Use your mobile whilst driving and hit a bollard - likely fine. Do the same and injure a pedestrian, possible short jail sentence, certain lengthy ban and large fine. Do the same and kill a toddler and a guaranteed manslaughter conviction / sentence - and rightly so.Our justice system is designed in part to reflect the consequences of ones actions. If I lie and say Mr ABC next door scratched my car I'll be wrist-slapped for wasting police time. If I lie and say he raped me, thereby resulting in him suffering a breakdown, having to resign his teaching job because of the gossip and parents asking to have their kids pulled from his class, etc. then I deserve a VERY long sentence.
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sambeckett2 bulldogclipRecommend217Prof Lisa Avalos, of the University of Arkansas, said false allegations in the US were dealt with as a misdemeanour offence, not a felony – and most women were not jailed if found guilty.This is quite shocking when you consider the consequences of their actions on the victims and their lives if that innocent person was found guilty. You really want a situation where people can make vindictive and false claims knowing they wont be jailed if they are found out? It sounds like other countries should catch up with the UK, not the other way round.It's ironic that it's Women Against Rape who are demanding change here, given that false claimants absolutely undermine their aims. And why is an anti-rape group demanding this in any case? Does believing that false claims should be aggressively investigated mean that you are somehow pro-rape, or at least unconcerned about it? I would have thought, ideally, all crimes should be aggressively investigated (would this group object to rape being treated investigated aggressively?).I think we can file this under the 'women can do no wrong even when they do wrong' school of feminism.
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NomChompsky bulldogclipWhich is pretty bullshit, considering that, in many parts of the US, people can be charged with criminal defamation for saying nasty things about a corporation, a fictitious person.
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29 people, 36 commentstriantafillosRecommend103which carries a maximum life jail term – rather than the lesser offence of wasting police time, which has a maximum penalty of six months in prison or a fine.our judicial system has this "weakness" of sending people to jail at the drop of a hat, for stealing a bottle of water, for example.We hold first place in Europe. The Islamist Government in Turkey holds second place.
I wonder sometimes whether this country is a breeding ground for criminals, or is just the legal system that makes it look that way.-
Arapas triantafillosRecommend14I wonder sometimes whether this country is a breeding ground for criminalsSometimes it looks that way !
Flagships of crime, like The Yorkshire Ripper, the Great train robbery, etc point to your point.
Nevertheless, you are going to find quite a few rotten apples in a box of 60 million. -
Abertawe triantafillosRecommend560A woman who makes a false allegation of rape should face the same penalty as the man she accused would have received had he been found guilty.
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Slo27 AbertaweRecommend87A woman who makes a false allegation of rape should face the same penalty as the man she accused would have received had he been found guilty.
So, you think that saying it is equivalent to doing it? You think the anguish of someone saying you raped them is the same as the anguish of actually being raped?How far are you willing to take this analogy? For example, it turns out that Blair is not a war criminal, should all the loud accusers get the same penalty, life in jail, as he would? -
Florence5 AbertaweRecommend49Yes, of course, but I don't think these are all malicious lies against the (alleged) rapist - often charges are dropped because the authorities don't think they can successfully prosecute for lack of adequate evidence - does that mean the woman was lying about being raped?
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Abertawe Slo27Recommend172
Yes, I do. The trauma of being unjustly accused of rape is undoubtedly as great as that of being raped, and the stigma many times worse.You think the anguish of someone saying you raped them is the same as the anguish of actually being raped?A woman who knowingly makes a false allegation of rape should be jailed for a long time. -
Superelastic Slo27Recommend42A strong deterrent against false accusations should, in theory, mean that reported crimes are more likely to be prosecuted fairly.Ascertaining consent when there are no witnesses can often be problematic and won't be helped if a jury thinks someone has little to lose by making a false allegation.
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nomdeplume2 Slo27This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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SofaActionary Slo27Recommend109So, you think that saying it is equivalent to doing it? You think the anguish of someone saying you raped them is the same as the anguish of actually being raped?For the victim of a false accusation, yes it is. They face the potential destruction of their private and professional life. They also face a custodial sentence. Or would you take delight in seeing your life crumble around you, and detention at Her Majesty's pleasure, labelled a rapist)?
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caerperis triantafillosRecommend21Minor point of correction: Turkey has been a secular state since the 1920's.
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vigdis Slo27Recommend165My ex was accused of a crime less serious than rape - GBH - against a woman he'd never met. And it wasn't even her that accused him - it was a policeman who noticed scratches on his face (the woman attacked had scratched her attacker) - scratches gifted to him by our sweet little cat. It wasn't that long before he was able to establish his innocence - as he was actually piloting a boat on the river at the time of the attack.
But this I can tell you, the trauma, the fear and panic whilst being questioned by the police about a crime he did not commit was so intense and terrifying that it actually changed him; and he never quite got over it. Can you then imagine what it must be like if you are falsely accused of rape by a woman - at least the police officer had some grounds for suspicion which my ex was able to appreciate afterward.
So with all due respect, I think you should look at it from the view of a falsely accused man.
Rape is a dreadful crime and as a feminist, I believe it should often attract a much harsher sentence than it does. But if we really want society to take rape seriously and regard it for the vile act that it is - then we have to recognise that women who falsely make such accusations are doing a great disservice to the actual victims of rape, as well as the men who they are accusing.
Unless a woman is completely unbalanced and mentally ill, then false accusations of rape should be punished to the full extent possible. -
Speenhamland caerperisRecommend18Turkey Secular? It may have been, but it doesn't look like that now.
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Cynicalwolf vigdisRecommend23Tremendous post, Vigdis, seriously. If it's not a Guardian pick, they should have a word with themselves.
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BobSW1 vigdisRecommend24The police can be dreadful. Years ago a friend and me were attacked by a gang of teenagers in the street for no reason - just stupid drunk kids. It was central London. I wasn't particularly hurt but my friend was - he'd been hit over the head with a bottle and needed stitches. It was a gang of black boys - 10 or so of them all pretty much under 18. I told that to the police and told them which direction they had gone - it only took 5 mins to find a policeman. To my horror, they hauled over a black couple (man and woman) of about 30 and asked me if it was them. Sometimes you just can't believe these things are happening.
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SirDesmond Slo27Recommend17I would rather be raped than convicted of rape. Many people feel the same.
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BuftyLopez AbertaweI have to say that I don't think false accusations of rape are as bad as actual rape - and therefore I think rape should carry a harsher sentence.I do, however, agree that there should be severe consequences to false accusations of rape. It's a vicious attack on someone, even if it's not physical. The idea that pursuing false accusation is wrong, because it in some way prevents victims from reporting crimes - which I take to be the point of the article - seems motivated by crass partisanship. Literally nothing more dignified than 'girls v. boys'.
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Badjohana AbertaweThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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BobSW1 SirDesmondRecommend29That a pretty silly thing to say, I assume you have experienced neither.
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vigdis BobSW1Yes, that's an awful experience for that couple and, the thing is, it can - and does - happen to anyone, anywhere and at any time.
I think perhaps it is impossible to understand what it is like to be falsely accused of something unless it has actually happened to you - unfortunately. I know the police have a job to do but sometimes I wonder at the mindset. -
yeokat SirDesmondRecommend16Of all the silly things I read on these comment feeds, this is one of the silliest.
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SirDesmond BobSW1Yes to the first, no to the second. I wouldn't trade places with a falsely accused man for anything less than £1m.
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Ezra85 AbertaweRecommend13Yes, I do. The trauma of being unjustly accused of rape is undoubtedly as great as that of being raped, and the stigma many times worse.Absolute rubbish. Whilst I agree that being falsely accused of rape is bad and does negatively affect someone's life it is no where near as bad as being raped. Believe me there is a stigma attached to being raped, it affects your whole life.
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SirDesmond yeokatRecommend10Being a rape survivor sucks, but there's an enormous diversity of experiences. Some people are repeatedly brutalised over many years by powerful people from whom they cannot escape, others just have a bad experience with a random person they never have to deal with again if they don't want to. For me, going to prison or even just being falsely accused would have been much worse.
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paulnadirehs triantafillosMore criminals in prison mean less on the streets, isn't that a good thing?And since when was the Turkish government islamist? Turkey is one of the most secular muslim countries in the world.
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IthinkthereforeIsew SirDesmondPresuming you haven't been raped, I don't know how you could possibly predict what being raped is like and how it would affect you and I think it is crass and insensitive to speculate about it.
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therebythegrace AbertaweThe trauma of being unjustly accused of rape is undoubtedly as great as that of being raped, and the stigma many times worse.This is just a lie.I know a woman who has been raped and also a man who was falsely accused - and sentenced - for rape (he definitely did not do it).There is absolutely no question in my mind - or his either, in case you want to know what someone who has experienced this feels - that the actual trauma of rape is far, far worse than being accused of a crime you didn't commit.The man I know found it very upsetting, yes, but has now put it behind him and moved on. The woman was absolutely destroyed by the rape and unable to move on.A violent physical attack is not comparable to being accused of something you know you are innocent of.
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AGlassDarkly AbertaweA woman who makes a false allegation of rape should face the same penalty as the man she accused would have received had he been found guilty.Why? Has she violated someone else's bodily integrity? Has she proven herself capable of committing violence against another person? Because a man found guilty of rape has done so. And you think they should receive the same penalty.It's pretty terrifying that you should get so many recommends for a suggestion which has no legal precedent and makes no sense at all in a consistent justice system.
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toadwarrior Slo27Considering you've probably ruined any chance of them having a normal relationship ever again then yes it's pretty much the same.You're implying that the very brief physical attack is some how worse than an attack on someone's mental state.I'd say the worst part of being raped or being accused of rape is the years of remembering the event, the destroyed trust and all those things you have to live with forever.As far as Tony Blair, you're implying he some how even notices or cares what people say while he sleeps on his fat stack of money and he'd never be found to be a war criminal because the US and UK have veto power in the security council so your example isn't a very good one because it basically requires the judge to pass judgement on himself.
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FooBar21 Slo27No, it's not the same. It can actually be a lot worse. With a bit
of therapy and the passage of time, one wound can heal and leave few repercussions. Certainly no official records. But
someone who has been (falsely) branded a rapist and done hard time for it - that someone will be hounded by that injustice
for the rest of his life, shunned by potential lovers and even
friends and family, often unable to get a job, and leading truly,
severely marginalized, ruined lives - until they die. So you're right, the two are not quite the same. Your analogy with Blair btw is too absurd. Obviously no plain Joe Does' accusations
are ever going to ruin Blair's privileged life, who is still thoroughly embraced by the power establishment.
Show 33 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 10:10pm -
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23 people, 26 commentsAlbert RaveyRecommend1222Hang on - these women have deliberately lied and tried to ruin the lives of others and have, quite rightly been prosecuted. A charity which campaigns against rape is complaining that this has happened. Something is very wrong here. We live in a society where rape is taken extremely seriously. As such, falsely accusing another of rape in an attempt to destroy their life should also be taken seriously. If not enough rapes are being followed up, the charity is right to complain about this, but comments like:“It’s appalling that when over 90% of rapists are getting away with it and two women a week are killed by partners or ex-partners, women who report violence are being imprisoned.give the impression that the charity in question doesn't care whether the rape took place or not. That probably wasn't their intention, but I think they have been foolish here and not done their cause any good.
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genericID Albert RaveyRecommend43It does seem an odd stance, since the women imprisoned weren't actually reporting "violence". I'd suggest that there are probably a number of wrongful convictions for perverting the course of justice and wasting police time, but whether that is as serious a problem as wrongful conviction for rape and/or sexual assault (or any other crime, TBH) I wouldn't like to speculate.
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simonk Albert RaveyRecommend111I assume their underlying point is that the fear of being prosecuted for a "false accusation" might be one of the many disincentives for women who have been raped to report it to the authorities.
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DanielCormack Albert RaveyRecommend211Every false allegation of rape casts doubt into the minds of juries when they are considering the evidence in a rape trial and make it more likely they will give the accused the 'benefit of the doubt'.As such, rape charities should make it their business to adopt a robust approach against those who abuse the criminal justice system in this way.It's odd they should say that 90% of rapists are "getting away with it", Presumably this is based on the assumption that 100% of complaints are genuine. I'm sorry to say that we live in the real world here, however inconvenient that may be for some.
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femalelefty Albert RaveyRecommend55I think that because it often difficult to prove cases of rape and sexual violence, women may discouraged from reporting it as they may fear that they could be accused of lying and potentially go to prison.Obviously we should not allow people to deliberately lie about rape, but the punishment should not be so that actual victims are put off coming forward.
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Variant47 femaleleftyRecommend57Obviously we should not allow people to deliberately lie about rape, but the punishment should not be so that actual victims are put off coming forward.But given that it is a serious crime in and of itself, it does need to be punished in an appropriate manner - and some seem to think that any punishment at all is too much....
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TheSpecialWon Albert RaveyRecommend92Certainly, you would think that a charity campaigning against rape would take a dim view on false rape allegations. Seeing as they are a massive hindrance in getting police/courts to take actual instances of rape seriously.
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SofaActionary femaleleftyRecommend70Obviously we should not allow people to deliberately lie about rape, but the punishment should not be so that actual victims are put off coming forwardWhy should a liar receive a more lenient punishment? The victim of their lies has to live with the fallout from the false accusation.
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dingied femaleleftyRecommend53The police would need evidence they lied. I don't think anyone is being prosecuted for 'he said she said'. It's 'she said and he had a cast iron alibi'.
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ID5252799 femaleleftyRecommend46Why should rape, or alleged rape, be a special case?If someone attacks me in the street and beats me up badly should I therefore not report it in case I am not believed?The onus is to prove guilt – in any crime. And perverting the course of justice applies whatever the crime also.
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BkAv DanielCormackRecommend23It's odd they should say that 90% of rapists are "getting away with it", Presumably this is based on the assumption that 100% of complaints are genuine. I'm sorry to say that we live in the real world here, however inconvenient that may be for some.Here’s a fairly comprehensive report compiled last year by the Ministry of Justice, Home Office & the Office for National Statistics. Page seven shows data relating to the number of crimes committed and the number of convictions for these crimes. The figures are based on three year averages.Number of victims of sexual offences: 430,000-517,000
Number of convictions for these offences: 5,620Number of victims of rape: 60,000-95,000
Number of convictions for these offences: 1,070 -
WritesPosts BkAvRecommend21You're making the mistake (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) of assuming there's an offender for every victim, when these (well all, but especially crimes of this nature) are rarely a one-off, but instead committed by serial offenders.
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tarbrush simonkRecommend13I am sure women only get convicted if their if there is evidence beyond reasonable doubt that they falsely accused an innocent man. Using the stats the charity used there were approximately 3692 prosecutions, with 2333 convictions. That means 1359 men were found innocent, although there were only 109 cases against women who made false allegations- that is less than 10%!
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TerribleLyricist BkAvRecommend22Those are some seriously depressing stats. Getting on for 1,400 sexual assaults per day, but only about 100 convictions per week.Who are these men - this army of men? With numbers like this, we must all know an abuser.Just a tad more serious than the 20 women a year who make (deplorable) false accusations of rape.
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Badjohana Albert RaveyRecommend12Unfortunately, rape is not taken seriously in the UK.....by and large, men have a license to rape, it should not be, but that is the reality.....
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tarbrush tarbrushRecommend18Sorry the figures I gave were wrong- 1359 innocent men each year, in 5 years extrapolated to 6795 men falsely accused of rape, with their life and career destroyed. In 5 years only 109 cases against women falsely accusing men of rape....seems like the courts only convict the people where there is beyond reasonable doubt that they lied.
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periwinkle27 Albert RaveyRecommend17As long as the cause of feminism is being advanced, harming men is ok. They are the oppressors, after all.
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Hans_Moleman BadjohanaRecommend30No, that is not the reality and you know it isn't. Ridiculous comment.
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___pyth tarbrushRecommend17In many of these cases, the accused are not found innocent, but as mentioned in the article, the victims are pressured into withdrawing their case by police or by threats/abuse from people siding with the accused. A large amount of cases are dropped because of insufficient evidence, as rape often doesn't leave large amounts of evidence.
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VolcanicRock TerribleLyricistReally?I think they are both equal. Take a case by case basis,) as all investigations shouldPut yourself in the shoes of the innocent, trying to prove they are innocent.Just because there are not that many willing to tell lies does not make it any less serious.
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PeteTaylor TerribleLyricistWho are these men - this army of men? With numbers like this, we must all know an abuser.You're making the assumption that for every rape there is one man, as apposed to one man doing multiple rapes. Which would bring the numbers down...by how much would be interesting to find out.
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therebythegrace tarbrushRecommend10Yes, because British law only convicts people if it is beyond reasonable doubt they did it.You'd rather that we convicted people because we thought there was a small chance they might have done it???
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suhi89 femaleleftyThen charities such as WAR should make it clear that you are only likely to be sent to prison if you can be proved to be lying beyond reasonable doubt (which I hope is actually the case and see no evidence to suggest otherwise. Around a hundred cases is a tiny percentage of total reported rapes).The only way rape victims are going to get the impression that reporting their rape is likely to lead to them going to jail is if that's what is portrayed in the media and as such I think WAR, by falsely pushing this narrative, are doing victims of rape a disservice and potentially making them less likely to come forward.
Show 23 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 10:09pm -
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8 people, 8 commentsandrewmcneilisRecommend701As long as potentially innocent accused do not get anonymity then there needs to be an equal deterrent for malicious agregious accusations.Rape is a vile crime. So is deliberately falsely accusing one of it.
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RadkaVarhanova andrewmcneilisRecommend82the massive and disproportionate response when a rape claim is made these days (as clearly set out in that letter published here a few days ago), means that a false accusation should also lead to a massive and disproportionate response. Otherwise it will get more and more difficult to prosecute rape.
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chry5anth andrewmcneilisRecommend15I agree, but in the case in question, it looks like the person was suffering from psychosis, so there is definitely a possible alternative explanation than malice.Additionally, if someone makes such an accusation, they'll often be extremely vulnerable anyway. Often people who have been raped or suffered sexual abuse as children (whose numbers we know are huge), will accuse someone innocent, later in life.
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AView RadkaVarhanovaRecommend25But the system is already rigged against victims. We have one of the lowest conviction rates for rape among westernised countries. Similarly time and time again the police have been shown to dismiss people coming forward.I am not saying it's ok to make false claims. It is an absolutely disgraceful thing to do. It ruins lives.That being said, this article provides yet more evidence that our judicial system is far more willing to assist the accused more than the accusers. It's rigged.If I were a woman and had been raped, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't bother reporting it. So little are the chances anything good would come from it.
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turkey1 andrewmcneilisRecommend13I'm not sure the penalty should be 'equal', it should simply fit the enormity of the crime involved. A false accusation of rape is equivalent not to rape but to attempted or actual conspiracy to kidnap and hold someone against their will. When you falsely accuse someone of rape you attempt to cause armed men to abduct the individual, men who will beat him with batons if he resists, to cause those men to imprison him and hold him in a small cell against his will for years. All we need to do is ask what penalty we would look for if someone hired a bunch of gangsters to do the same. The fact that an individual attempts to use the national legal apparatus and our police to carry out the same end result does not make it any less deplorable than if they were to hire thugs for the purpose. If anything, it makes the crime worse.
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StanOne andrewmcneilisCertainly, one of the issues to consider is should alleged perpetrators be named if:1) the alleged victim is not prepared to proceed with a formal complaint.
2) there is not equal publication.In Canada. we are presently being served the drama of 2 Members of Parliament who are alleging misconduct by members of another party. The accused were named and dismissed from their positions while the accusers are unnamed and, more critically, have not filed formal complaints for charges to be brought.
This is absolutely a disservice to the dispensation of justice. If you feel you have been maligned, then file. Otherwise, we should not be bandying peoples' names about. Period. -
GabrielTheToad RadkaVarhanova
I'm not sure I buy that slippery-slope argument there. The number of false rape accusations is minuscule compared with real ones, and it is often necessary to make the accused's name known so that independent witnesses can come forward.the massive and disproportionate response when a rape claim is made these days (as clearly set out in that letter published here a few days ago), means that a false accusation should also lead to a massive and disproportionate response. Otherwise it will get more and more difficult to prosecute rape. -
Happytravelling AView'But the system is already rigged against victims. We have one of the lowest conviction rates for rape among westernised countries.'The 'system' is one based on evidence and I don't think anybody would seriously argue otherwise. Sadly, with regard to sexual assault, given very few instances are undertaken in the presence of witnesses and most evidence can also be the result of consensual sex, conviction rates are always likely to be lower than other crimes.Further, it's incorrect to compare the UK, which has different laws andand, more importantly, different definitions of the offence.It is correct to ask if the authorities are doing enough to gather evidence to convict but setting arbitrary rates of conviction is the antithesis of justice.
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 6:31pm -
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9 people, 12 commentsBettyWindsorRecommend484In the UK people are innocent until PROVEN guilty
unfortunately there is no anonymity for the accused, so folks can suffer damage to their reputations, jobs, lives because of an unproven allegation - matters not what the allegation was
it is only reasonable to prosecute those making false allegations - no matter what the alleged crime-
hugin1 BettyWindsorRecommend74In the UK people are innocent until PROVEN guilty
unfortunately there is no anonymity for the accused, so folks can suffer damage to their reputations, jobs, lives because of an unproven allegation - matters not what the allegation wasYes, but there has to be a balance otherwise victims of crimes will never dare report the crimes. If every victim have to carefully balance the prospect of getting the (alleged) perpetrators convicted against the risk of being convicted of lying about the crime then people will simply stop reporting crime as it becomes much too risky.Only in cases where a sane person can be proven to have lied with the intention to damage others reputation is it reasonable to prosecute false allegations.This article just points out that this crucial balance seems to be lacking in UK, where the police's failure to prove a crime quickly can turn into an accusation the victim is lying. Notice that failure to positively prove a crime does not at all rule out that the crime happened...... it's often very very difficult to prove rape as the perpetrator will usually just say it's consensual.... so it's word against word. -
Bjerkley hugin1Recommend121This article just points out that this crucial balance seems to be lacking in UK, where the police's failure to prove a crime quickly can turn into an accusation the victim is lying.The balance seems to be okay. There are about 14 - 15,000 reports of rape of women a year. There are about 2,300 successful prosecutions. About 20 women a year have been prosecuted for false allegations. It's very unlikely to happen.
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MarkTG BjerkleyI tend to agree. However, the piece of information that appears to be missing from the report is the level of investigation (rather than conviction) of accusers who's case does not go to trial or is not proved.Given the difficulty of proving rape convictions, and the obstacles that are presented to women in reporting such crimes, I think the likelihood of false allegation is pretty low. I would therefore hope that the police are only investigating the possibility of false allegation in a way that would cause the complainant any distress in cases where there are clear indications that the allegation is false, rather than simply in the majority of cases where there is not enough evidence. However, there seems to be nothing in the article that shows that one way or the other.
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Bjerkley MarkTGThat's true, yes, the article isn't clear whether there were 109 prosecutions or convictions.I know that the police overstate the number of allegations they don’t believe to involve any crime, but I’ve not seen anything on the number of people charged with an offence as a result. However, the CPS guidance on this is that caution is to be taken given that often those making a false allegation are mentally ill or the like, and that it’s only where there’s a clear malicious intent would it be appropriate. -
martinrichard hugin1Recommend12Yes, but there has to be a balance otherwise victims of crimes will never dare report the crimes.Bollocks.If every victim have to carefully balance the prospect of getting the (alleged) perpetrators convicted against the risk of being convicted of lying about the crime then people will simply stop reporting crime as it becomes much too risky.How about just not lying.
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MarkTG BjerkleyIt's 109 convictions. They say "at least 109 prosecutions" because they don't have a number for prosecutions, but that's the number you'd really want to use if you had it, because the convicted women probably were making false allegations, whereas the bigger part of the issue is how many real victims were subjected to the further trauma of an investigation as to whether they lied.
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Bjerkley MarkTGYes, you're right.Although someone elsewhere posted to stats as to charging and 121 were charged for a false allegation of rape between January 2011 and May 2012. Of those, 35 were prosecuted: 25 for
perverting the course of justice and ten for wasting police
time.Given that the number of false allegations are estimated at around 3% or so, less than a third of those are likely to be charged, so it doesn't seem disproportionate on that basis. -
tarbrush BettyWindsorRecommend10innocent in the eyes of the law. Guilty in the eyes of the public and work college, just by the fact you are accused. Name and photo published in the paper. Still need to fill out the details of your court case on crb forms for employment. Still need to inform an adoption service that you were prosecuted, albeit foubd innocent, for the act of rape. Accusations hang around the necks of the accused for life, for a crime they dos not commit. For example look at the court cases against the men ACCUSED of grooming girls...are they portrayed as innocent until the verdict issued by a court?
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franhunny BettyWindsorShould not the answer to the problem be rather to keep the anonymity of the accused until proven guilty?
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SoberThirdThought hugin1If the rape victim is telling the truth, the police would have no grounds, and even less evidence, to prosecute, let alone get a conviction, for making a false accusation.
Show 9 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 7:15pm -
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7 people, 12 commentszwickyRecommend181Rape is bad and perverting the course of justice is bad. Why do there need to be a false dichotomy between prosecuting them?If there are unsafe convictions or biased investigations for either of them, of course that needs to be fixed.
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BlackChineseMan zwickyRecommend82I am really glad that this article came out because I have mentioned several times that false race claims are a real problem but people try to castigate me for making such comments rather than addressing it.Clearly men that abuse and rape women MUST face the law and be put away . So how about the women making the false rape allegations against men? these men are victims and these women have ruined their lives or tried to ruin it.I have a female friend that falsely accused an older man of rape. I asked her why she did it and she told me "its because he used his power and influence to lure me and seduce me into sex then left me."Many women will then say " ok but these are rare cases!" well...
my question is: how rare are these cases really? are they really rare ? or common? -
AView BlackChineseManRecommend30I'm calling you out on what you claim your friend says. You should have faith it your argument rather than making up some story to somehow add weight to your words. The irony of talking about lies then writing what you just wrote...
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BlackChineseMan AViewRecommend28I'm calling you out on what you claim your friend says. You should have faith it your argument rather than making up some story to somehow add weight to your words. The irony of talking about lies then writing what you just wrote...1) you must understand the concept of mutual exclusive events. My comment AND my friends statement can both be true and occur in one sentence. It is called giving an example. Otherwise the word "example" would not exist if people never use it.2) You are implying that I am lying . What evidence do you have to disprove my statements? or is this projection (psychology) ? are you projecting your lying ways onto this?
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IdiomSavant BlackChineseManRecommend10I have mentioned several times that false race claims are a real problemYou're actually neither black, nor Chinese?
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AmandaLothian BlackChineseManthey are frighteningly common and one of the reasons why there is a low conviction rate for rape, the thing that nobody is allowed to say is that many women lie about rape.
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IdiomSavant AmandaLothianRecommend10why there is a low conviction rate for rapeIt's about 58%, same as most other crimes.It's the attrition rate that sucks; it's an unfortunate consequence of the often he-said/she-said nature of rape that many cases don't make it to court.
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Mipsie BlackChineseManMy understanding is that the rate of false accusations of crime runs at between 6% and 8%. That's for all crimes, rape is no different.
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BlackChineseMan IdiomSavantI have mentioned several times that false race claims are a real problem
You're actually neither black, nor Chinese?does it matter? from many of the posts here...one can clearly see that there is no sympathy for men falsely accused of rape.It appears that feminism has taught many to hate men and send innocent them to lions den . -
IdiomSavant BlackChineseMandoes it matter?Not really. It was a just a joke about a typo.from many of the posts here...one can clearly see that there is no sympathy for men falsely accused of rape.Yeah, but that's demonstrably a load of bollocks though, isn't it? The clear majority of comments are sympathetic, and rightly so.It appears that feminism has taught many to hate men and send innocent them to lions denGo grind your axe on someone else, buddy.
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BlackChineseMan IdiomSavantGo grind your axe on someone else, buddy.we men are victimised and attacked by combatant feminists all the time...ok :-)
Show 9 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 9:31pm -
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7 people, 8 commentsLePharaonRecommend213Prof Claire Ferguson, a forensic criminologist from the University of New England in New South Wales, Australia, said it was not the “norm” to prosecute women for false allegations .....etc .............people have been accused, then nothing ever happens to the accuser, even though the police believe the report is indeed false.“This can be hugely problematic and has led to many personal and professional issues for the accused (including suicide), even when the police have proven that they did nothing wrong and are not a sex offender,” she said.==================================--
This is (unusually) a very balanced view of a rape-related matter. More like it, please. I suppose it had to be a female professor - a man would get pilloried for presenting the same facts.-
JoannaDark LePharaonRecommend58Talking of facts, the article says:In 2012/13 there were 3,692 prosecutions for rape in England and Wales, resulting in 2,333 convictions.Where do these "90% of rapists are getting away with it!!!" and "rape conviction rates are appallingly low" statistics that are so often chucked around come from? Does anyone have to hand the reasoning employed that gets us from about 2/3 to 1/10 or less?
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Flyswot JoannaDarkRecommend24I would assume it comes from the difference between the number of complaints made to the police and the number of convictions. I do not know what those figures are.The CPS (even if the case is put to them by the police, who will apply their own coarse filter first) will only bring a prosecution if they consider there is admissible evidence that is reliable and credible and provides a realistic prospect of conviction. Therefore the numbers of prosecutions for all offences are much lower than the number of complaints.
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DrMaybe JoannaDarkFigure 1.1 in this government document.https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/214970/sexual-offending-overview-jan-2013.pdf
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sebastian24 JoannaDarkRecommend14Does anyone have to hand the reasoning employed that gets us from about 2/3 to 1/10 or less?
You do know most crimes are not prosecuted? -
oxygen84 JoannaDarkAre you ok?What is meant is probably that 90% of rape complaints made to the police are not taken any further. The complains which are result in prosecutions tend to result in convictions (2,333 out of 3,692).
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elfwyn oxygen84Recommend14This is usually due to lack of evidence that will secure a conviction. Unless there are witnesses, or the victim has been physically assaulted, it's generally a case of one person's word against another.There is some evidence that some men are playing the system.She later discovered that he had been accused of rape four times previously: twice not charged, and twice acquitted by a jury.
A look at this article might prove salutary: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2007/feb/01/penal.genderissuesAnother study, in the US, concluded that a substantial minority of men would rape if they thought they could get away with it, and men who did rape and got away with it were very careful to select victims who were less likely to be believed.
http://www.davidlisak.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/RepeatRapeinUndetectedRapists.pdfA tiny minority of women falsely report rape. That should not be used as an excuse to assert that most rape reports are false. -
JoannaDark sebastian24And you do know the difference between allegation and fact; that, because someone responds to a survey that a crime was committed against them, it does not mean that they are correct, nor that there is a separate guilty party for each respondent?So when WAR says:It’s appalling that when over 90% of rapists are getting away with itthey are assuming that every single one of those people was definitely raped, each by a different individual; and seems to be implying that somehow the CPS and police don't really care and aren't making an effort to bring rapists to justice. This seems unfair on the authorities, who have to investigate and prosecute what is an incredibly difficult crime to investigate and prosecute. What are they supposed to do, short of introducing a presumption of guilt and overturning the entire liberal legal system?
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 6:54pm -
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7 people, 7 commentsabominablevoleRecommend365“The UK has an unusual approach and I think their approach violates human rights.”Of course. Isn't the right to lie in a criminal case enshrined in law codes throughout the world?
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JoannaDark abominablevoleRecommend180Yes, "WAR" seem to be trying to conflate:- Making an report which doesn't result in a conviction because of lack of evidence.and- Having been found to have deliberately lied in a court of law.If we were jailing people for the first, it would be a violation of their rights. Jailing people for the second is about as uncontroversial as law can get.
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RadkaVarhanova JoannaDarkRecommend58look, they're an NGO desperate for funding. Of course they have to try and scare people into funding them
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Nepthsolem JoannaDarkRecommend36I think what they are doing is much more sinister. They correctly note that wasting police time is less serious an offence than perverting the course of justice, and so are trying to have it that making a false rape allegation is the former and not the latter. The reality is that in some cases it will amount to one and in some other cases it will amount to the other. Each case will turn on its own facts. The sentence, where warrant, will turn on the facts.
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Rabscuttle NepthsolemRecommend28Absolutely. Falsely claiming to have been raped by a person unknown could reasonably be treated as wasting police time. Falsely accusing a named individual of rape is attempting to pervert the course of justice, & throroughly deserves to be prosecuted as such.
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zurgleflip RabscuttleRecommend17The Daily Mail report of the court case cited (not the Guardian one) makes clear that 4 young men were arrested, invasively examined, held in custody, one attempted suicide, and continued to be abused in the street. They may object to the concept that the main issue was wasting police time.
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oneladwithanopinion abominablevoleExactly, since when was it a human right to falsely accuse someone of rape?
Show 4 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 7:00pm -
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5 people, 5 commentsID8246338Recommend386'War' must be full of idiots.Perverting the course of justice is appropriate for making serious false allegations in a case of alleging a crime against the person. It is not the same as someone claiming someone stole a tenner - which is wasting police time.Lisa Longstaff, from War, said: “It’s appalling that when over 90% of rapists are getting away with it..." HOW THE HELL DOES SHE KNOW?Unless there are mitigating circumstances such as mental health problems there is no reason whatsoever why these women should not face the full force of the law.
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simonk ID8246338Recommend24Perverting the course of justice is appropriate for making serious false allegations in a case of alleging a crime against the person. It is not the same as someone claiming someone stole a tenner - which is wasting police time.No, this is wrong. The difference between the two offences is not the seriousness of the allegation made but the effect of the fabrication. The vast majority of false reports count as wasting police time because they don't otherwise interfere with the administration of justice. PtCoJ cases usually involve a more systematic fabrication.What appears to be being argued by War (and I have no personal view on the merits of their argument) is that some women are being accused of PtCoJ when their case would either merit being accused of wasting police time or when their case is not even demonstrably false.
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TheYoungerMouse Severus1Recommend19In effect, her argument is that a few cases of false accusations ought to be winked at, provided they improve the 'rapist getting what they deserve' side of the statistics. But 'ideally' the false accusations, whether prosecuted or not, should add to the number of 'rapists' getting away with it' figure. Does she really support the idea of men falsely accused of rape being convicted and sentenced just to make up for those not be prosecuted?
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Anteaus ID8246338This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 6:02pm -
12 people, 19 comments
Guardian contributor
kizbotRecommend282If the allegation can be shown to be malicious and false it should be prosecuted given the damage it does to women as well as the men accused.
An allegation of sexual assault that cannot be proven does not mean it's false, though.-
YorkerBouncer kizbotRecommend181False rape accusations also devalue actual rapes and make convictions for them less likely.If anything, and if they were doing their job properly, WAR should be supporting a tough stance against false claims as it would suit the agenda they claim to be pursuing.
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Markmarkmark56 kizbotRecommend70Just something that annoyed me about your comment.......given the damage it does to women as well as the men accused.Surely that should be "...given the damage it does to the man accused as well as women."If is is a malicious falsehood shouldn't the direct victim be first in the sentence (and therefore in its implication) and the general term second?
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Markmarkmark56 Markmarkmark56Recommend13P.SLook at me mom, you're little boy grew up to be a pedant!
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Arapas YorkerBouncerRecommend11False rape accusations also devalue actual rapes and make convictions for them less likely.We discussed RAPE here in the past, and in great detail.
The law is such, that anyone can file a rape allegation, including a wife, sometimes maliciously.
The girl in question here found it too hard to face the consequences and killed herself. We are talking about a young person that made a serious mistake. But young people do make serious mistakes, and surely there should be a way of dealing with this sort of cases.
Even murderers do not lose their lives these days. -
TurboMuncher kizbotRecommend32These 2 issue are constanly being conflated on CiF in particular - the Graun more generally.If a person accuses somebody of rape and the case fails, this emphatically does NOT mean the accuser would be found guilty of lying. In fact, even if, on corss examination, the accuser was found to be a poor, unreliable witness who had fabricate some of the account, it doesn't mean the presiding judge will pass sentence on them.In order to convict somebody of a false accusation, they would need to be subject to a separate trial themselves on the charge of lying, which would need to be proven beyond reasonable doubt like any serious crime should. (Please, boring pedants, we all understand about certain terrorist offences, etc.)So the law would protect women and men who make a legitimate rape accusation but where their own case fails.
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kizbot Markmarkmark56Recommend29semantics.. It makes no major difference which way round you say it. The point is that even the most militant feminist misandrist SHOULD support prosecuting false allegations as it makes a mockery of rape and victims of rape.
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kizbot TurboMuncherRecommend30I know this.. I'm pointing it out to the usual suspects who try to claim that any allegation of rape that is not prosecuted or does not lead to a conviction is therefore false
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Woolchin Markmarkmark56If is is a malicious falsehood shouldn't the direct victim be first in the sentence (and therefore in its implication) and the general term second?
no. -
TurboMuncher kizbot"I know this.. I'm pointing it out to the usual suspects who try to claim that any allegation of rape that is not prosecuted or does not lead to a conviction is therefore false"Fair enough. Although in fairness, I have not seen any comments suggesting this. Most people recognise that a verdict of not guilty in any crime is simply a statement that the accused's status remains "innocent" with respect to the accusation because the case was not strong enough to prove. I've not seen any comments suggesting that somebody found not guilty menas they definately did not commit the crime.However, I have seen comments on this very thread and in this very article which seem to suggest that suspextedd false accusations should be very mildly pursued (if at all) because it might otherwise criminalise women who have made genuine accusations. This is patently not the case - whilst accepting that you personally did not mean that of course :)
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YorkerBouncer ArapasRecommend32Even murderers do not lose their lives these days.Weasel words, you're trying to make out that this woman was killed for her actions rather than she killed herself because she couldn't face up to what she did.People make mistakes all the time. Most of the people convicted of death by dangerous driving probably didn't intend on killing anyone, but they made a mistake. They were tried for it, convicted and punished. Why should we treat malicious rape accusations any differently?
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MarkTG kizbotAnd this is the difficulty, and what is not made clear in the article. Are the police working on the assumption that a rape allegation that fails in court, or doesn't make it that far, must be false, and therefore creating further distress for thousands of women a year who were raped but couldn't prove it, for the sake of 20 convictions a year? Or are they pursuing a small number of cases, where the investigation into the rape allegation gave clear indications that the complaint was false, for a high % conviction rate?I would say that the former was doing more harm than good, but the latter was justified, but there seems to be little way to tell, from the article at least.
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VSLVSL kizbotRecommend11A sensible response to a serious problem.Failure to properly investigate and prosecute rape allegations is not a reason to not prosecute false allegations: it is a reason to improve an unsatisfactory process.WAR seem to be on the wrong side on this issue, and the treatment of offenders in other countries is evidence of their failure to treat a serious crime properly rather than an example we should follow.There is no quid pro quo here - we should improve investigations and prosecute false allegations.
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bananamanrules kizbotyes it does, we call it due process over here. police investigate and the state prosecutes. innocence until proven guilty. you've got it all backwards. where are you from?
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Alex40 kizbotRecommend14You are right: an allegation that cannot be proven, doesn't mean it isn't true. That is why the police doesn't prosecute women that make allegations that cannot be proven.Three are about 15,000 allegations of rape a year, leading to about 2000 convictions (13%). A report a few years back estimated that about 3% of allegations is false and malicious. So about 400x a year someone goes to the police trying to actively destroy another person's life. About 22 of them are prosecuted and 18 are convicted (5%).The very high conviction to prosecution rate suggests that the police only pick out the most blatant cases where there is almost undeniable evidence that a crime was committed.The fact that only 5% of cases comes to a conviction shows that it is in fact the women who are getting away with it, here.
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snoozeofreason kizbotIf the allegation can be shown to be malicious and false it should be prosecutedThe actual guidance given to prosecutors is here.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/perverting_the_course_of_justice_-_rape_and_dv_allegations/It does say that prosecution should be more likely if the allegation is malicioius, but other factors tare taken into consideration as well. For example prosecution is less likely if the suspect of the original allegation is not charged. I can see the logic of that, but it does have the rather odd consequence that someone who walks into a police station and makes an allegation that can easily be shown to be false is less likely to be prosecuted since, if the original allegation is obviously false, the person accused is unlikely to be charged. -
jonfanning ArapasRecommend12actually the police didn't think she had lied, it was a private prosecution filed by a rich man, this case is nasty and shouldn't have been allowed, but it does not support WARs contention, and has nothing to do with the overall question of the article. Everyone expected the case to be thrown out by the judge, but the girl broke before it went to court.
Show 16 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 5:09pm -
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12 people, 14 commentsGladiatrixRecommend93I notice that neither WAR nor the Guardian has acknowledged Andrew Economou's interview in the Mail at the weekend, I think the DPP is probably going to have to comprehensively rewrite whatever she was going to say about the de Freitas case.It is not clear that Eleanor de Freitas was the subject of a wrongful attempt at prosecution by the police and CPS, but that rather no-one in authority noticed she was clearly ill and the police and CPS failed properly to investigate Economou's alibi evidence. If they had investigated it properly at the time things would never have progressed as far as they did, however Eleanor de Freitas does appear to have accused Andrew Economou of something he simply didn't do.
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kizbot GladiatrixRecommend56You do not know whether she made a false allegation or not. She died before it could come to court. She can never be convicted of anything.
Had it been the other way round and Economou had been the one to die would you then say that he WAS a rapist or think anyone had the right to say as much even though he would never ever be convicted?
Thought not.... -
feministe NuRealityRecommend31If a man was accused of rape and had been found to take his own life then of course there would be a strong suspicion that he was guilty and had taken his own life.Not necessarily. A while back I read something by a psychologist who said that the innocent were most likely to committ suicide because a false accusation comes as a huge shock. The guilty from the moment of their crime prepare for the possibility of accusation which always hits them less hard.
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SleepingGimp kizbotRecommend33Was Jimmy Saville a paedo? He was never charged or convicted as one, but from the details that are in the public domain, I think it's fair to assume he was. Unless you want to loudly proclaim his innocence in the absence of any conviction.Assuming a few of the details in this case are true (the footage from Ann Summers the day after the alleged rape, the text messages she sent to friends saying how wonderful she thought he was, after he allegedly raped her etc), I think it's reasonable to surmise that her accusations were false.If, on the other hand, there was evidence to suggest that he had raped her but he killed himself before going to trial, then it would be reasonable to assume he was a rapist.
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notdrowningjustwavin kizbotRecommend24Hitler took his own life, maybe he was a misunderstood innocent trying to keep a lid on things.
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mcmcfmcfcok NuRealityRecommend11Absolute bollocks. What if a man with a history of mental illness is wrongfully accused of rape, there is no evidence to support his innocence and can see no other way out?
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Nepthsolem GladiatrixRecommend11A couple of points, not addressed to you specifically so much as the conversation generally.Firstly, it is simply not possible to infer guilt or otherwise from suicide. Secondly, in the event of a trial, "mental illness" (being a broad, non specific term) is of itself highly unlikely to excuse an offence having been committed, but may in some circumstances be enough to mitigate the sentence.
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dinkydexy kizbotRecommend39''You do not know whether she made a false allegation or not.''I do know that she sent a friend a text saying that she'd had 'the best sex of her life' the morning afterwards, that she was captured on CCTV in an Ann Summers shop buying sex toys with her victim and kissing and cuddling at length with him the same day, and that, unbeknownst to her father, she regularly advertised on Sex websites as a 'masseuse' wearing lingerie and high heels, laid out on a bed. (The ads are still online, if you dispute this).To use this woman as a poster girl is an insult to genuine rape victims everywhere.
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MrJoe kizbotRecommend13You do not know whether she made a false allegation or not. She died before it could come to court. She can never be convicted of anything.
Had it been the other way round and Economou had been the one to die would you then say that he WAS a rapist or think anyone had the right to say as much even though he would never ever be convicted?
Thought not....The evidence that her accusation was false is overwhelming; the open question is whether her behaviour was malicious or the result of mental illness.Had it been the other way round and Economou had been the one to die would you then say that he WAS a rapist or think anyone had the right to say as much even though he would never ever be convicted? Thought not....
Luckily we don't have to guess - we have examples of exactly that. Jimmy Saville - a man never found guilty in court, yet the evidence he was a rapist and sexual predator is overwhelming. Plenty of people have voiced this opinion. -
jonfanning dinkydexyThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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Gladiatrix kizbotThe IPCC is currently investigating the Met's failure to take account of Economou's evidence from the outset. Once they were forced to do so a decision to charge Eleanor de Freitas was made. If she had been prosecuted her mental health would have been taken into account, but she would still have been guilty. It is a sad fact that suicide is still taken as an admission of guilt in many circumstances. If Economou had taken that route even with his alibi evidence the Met and CPS would still be in trouble.
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IthinkthereforeIsew dinkydexyNo, do you know what is an insult to rape victims? Assuming that someone's previous sexual behaviour has any bearing on whether they have been raped or not.
Show 11 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 8:28pm -
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11 people, 17 commentsYorkerBouncerRecommend242If they've committed a crime, why shouldn't they be pursued by the law?Once again it's all about double standards.
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nondescrpt YorkerBouncerRecommend54If you read the article then you might understand that, for some reason, this country is more aggressive in its treatment of women who make false allegations.This could lead to a reluctance in rape victims to come forward and report rape. Bearing in mind that, if they are convicted of perverting the course of justice, they run the risk of a life sentence, as opposed to six months for wasting police time.Double standards isn't applicable to the debate.
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YorkerBouncer nondescrptRecommend82If you can't do the time then don't do the crime. And if the victim has evidence then it's not going to be an option. And given that without any evidence it becomes a "he did, she did" thing anyway, then a conviction isn't going to happen anyway.Deliberate false accusations damage the potential for real genuine rapists to be convicted, that alone is reason enough to crack down hard.
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Bjerkley nondescrptRecommend53But isn't there a danger that in vastly overstating the likelihood of being prosecuted for making false allegations (averaging 21 prosecutions per 14,700 reports), that in itself will put women off from making reports?
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pikeamus nondescrptRecommend47It's not very clear in the above article, but the third paragraph references 98 convictions from the 109 prosecutions (the remainder could have resulted in convictions as well from the wording). Assuming that isn't a balls up in the article, that sounds like an astonishing conviction rate. To me, that implies that prosecutions are only being made where they are very confident of a conviction, much more so than for other crimes. This seems to run directly counter to the claims made by the complainant parties in the article.
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trazer985 nondescrptthis conclusion could only be drawn if we knew what the circumstances were in the middle area of rape claims that arent prosecuted but arent taken to court. We only know the police are more aggressive in this than in other crimes.Perhaps if some groups werent so keen to demonstrate how awful the police are at investigating sex crimes, they wouldnt be so keen to make a clear point in the other direction.
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simonk YorkerBouncerThe argument is not that they 'shouldn't be pursued by the law' but that the definition of perverting the course of justice is being interpreted by the authorities in such a way as to lead to a disproportionately high level of prosecution by international standards. Given that legal definitions of PtCoJ are broadly similar in the international comparisons cited, this might imply that some of those convicted of PtCoJ in the UK may have been guilty of a lesser crime or no crime at all. Where there are such disparities they are worthy of comment, especially if they have wider implications as in this case.
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FFC800 nondescrptRecommend30It's pretty hard to be convicted for perverting the course of justice unless you are lying, and provably so, though. So the only people deterred by this would be women who are thinking about lying about being raped. I would like to see those people deterred.
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MarkTG FFC800If you were a woman who had been raped, first of all you will be concerned about being believed in the first place. Then you will be worried about having to relive everything and face your attacker during a trial. You then have in most cases a fairly small chance of a conviction because of the large number of cases that are one persons word against another. If you are then faced with the possibility that if you don't get to court or get a conviction, the police could potentially start investigating you as a potential liar, you don't think that could add to your reluctance to report the crime? And that's before you think about the possibility if being convicted. Do you also think in that state of mind you're going to have such unshakeable faith in the justice system as to be convinced that you'll not be found guilty even if you are innocent?The fundamental question is not about how many people are prosecuted, it's about what is the threshold for women being investigated in these cases. If there are clear reasons to believe that the allegations are demonstrably false, that's fine. If the investigations happen simply because of lack of enough evidence to secure conviction, then given the low conviction rates for this crime i would say that was going too far.
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pikeamus MarkTGBalls up in the article then I'd say. It uses prosecuted in the title and in the first paragraph, which leaves more room for doubt that these were actual crimes that had been committed.I'm inclined to believe that it's just sloppy journalism, though it could be an intentional misdirection for the purposes of an agenda.
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MickGJ pikeamusRecommend13
Yes--it would imply that the authorities aren't being very aggressive at all and could in fact be launching many more convictions--one would estimate that there were several hundred more cases where the probability of conviction was 75% or more.To me, that implies that prosecutions are only being made where they are very confident of a conviction, much more so than for other crimes. This seems to run directly counter to the claims made by the complainant parties in the article.It's a bit bizarre to suggest the authorities stop pursuing an offence on the basis that people are actually convicted of it. Arguably they are turning a blind eye to the offence in most cases.If there had been 109 prosecutions and 11 convictions this would indeed be a scandal. -
MarkTG pikeamusI think it says prosecuted so they can use "at least", because they have no figures bar the number of convictions, and they want to imply a higher number of prosecutions. So "at least 109 women have been prosecuted" is factually correct as by definition all the women convicted must have been prosecuted. But without knowing the actual gap between the two numbers, the article struggles to make it's point as to whether this is heavy handed policing of potential rape victims or not.
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oneladwithanopinion nondescrptIt is our judicial system, so we can pursue the crimes that we believe need pursuing. In the judicial system of other countries they pursue what is important to them. What other countries do should have no bearing on what this country does.
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rainyjaney MarkTGAnd, if I were in that situation, which of these statements do you think would be more likely to put me off and give me the fear of reporting?'this conviction rate for false allegations is incredibly low, and most likely suggests that it is not a path that is pursued very often, but should be pursued if women have deliberately made damaging false allegations, as it harms both men and genuine victims' (lots of the comments in this thread)OR'“It’s appalling that when over 90% of rapists are getting away with it and two women a week are killed by partners or ex-partners, women who report violence are being imprisoned." (War).By vastly overstating the problem and suggesting that women, in general, risk being relentlessly pursued by the police for accusing someone of rape, War have made the same mistake that many organisations do, which is creating a mentality of fear or drama to pursue an agenda. I just don't know how that's supposed to help, to be honest.
Show 14 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 8:44pm -
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5 people, 11 commentsmarginpantsRecommend191Why would any woman not support the agressive prosecution of a woman who has made a false accusation of rape ?Do they not understand these false accusations are the reason rape law is so complicated.Any woman who make a false accusation should have the full weight of the law throw at her just as a rapist should.But yet again women are the victim always the victim, men are the strong predator always the predator.The entire narrative of a woman's role in society is to be the victim, ever femanists insist women are always the victim and never strong enough to be the perpetrators .
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Bjerkley marginpantsRecommend41Do they not understand these false accusations are the reason rape law is so complicated.It's not though. False allegations are relatively rare in the context of overall allegations, and so in themselves shouldn't be a reason for disbelief or difficulty in prosecuting actual rapes.
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marginpants BjerkleyRecommend26Rare or not the fact they do happen means all alight ions of rape have to consider that possibility.Also the figures around false allegations are very suspect, hardly any man who has been found not guilty of rape had gone on to take out court action against their accuser.
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Bjerkley marginpantsRare or not the fact they do happen means all alight ions of rape have to consider that possibility.Only to the extent of testing the evidence as to whether a prosecution should be made. But it doesn't make the law more complicated to do so.Also the figures around false allegations are very suspect, hardly any man who has been found not guilty of rape had gone on to take out court action against their accuser.Why are they suspect?
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Buckster69 BjerkleyI'm not sure if you can confidently state that.Convictions surrounding false allegations are rare in the context of overall allegation but we don't know how many allegations are dropped and other scenerios where men are unjustifyably accused. Agreed, it is still low compared to the overall rape conviction rate.109 recorded convictions does seem low (unless you are one of the falsely accused of course) but if the percentage was negligiable then, I agree with the original poster, that genuine convictions would not be as difficult to secure.In short, there needs to be better protection for all those concerned.
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Bjerkley Buckster69Recommend11I'm not sure if you can confidently state that.I couldn't state that as an irrefutable fact, but there has been a lot of research into this, reliable research, which provides persuasive estimates as being around 2-3%.If anything, it's this insistence that false allegations are likely to be substantial that undermine rape trials as much as anything, but I would say the real difficulty in prosecuting rape is partly the he said/she said aspect, as well as a certain culture which holds many victims partly culpable for their fate, together with a misunderstanding of what the law actually is.
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trazer985 BjerkleyRecommend12because to prove it was a false claim, he has to prove it was consensual (without a witness or video that's fairly hard) or prove he was in a different postcode that night.I would imagine that the vast majority of not guilty cases, would mean that sexual intercourse had occurred, but whether consent was or was not given was the grey area.
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bananamanrules Bjerkleyfunny, seems to be a case in the paper at least once a week. they're just the ones i know of.
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bananamanrules bananamanrulesdidn't you say there were rare? new york times, washington post. you have to do your research. try reading different newspapers. obviously this paper doesn't cover every false allegation as if were news.
Show 8 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 4:43pm -
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3 people, 3 commentsJamesPrimRecommend173False claims make it so much harder for real victims to get justice.We should all welcome the fact that this tiny minority is prosecuted.
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Daniel Bird JamesPrimThe problem is though sometimes genuine rape victims get prosecuted. For example Sara Reedy.
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Heisenberg22 Daniel BirdAs horrible as it is for a woman to be made a victim of twice. Miscarriages of justice are undeniably present in any type of crime.Does that mean if a particular crime had the highest rate of miscarriages of justice then the police should no longer take that crime seriously.
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6 people, 8 commentsSeverus1Recommend299Heavens! You mean women that make false accusations (remaining anonymous throughout the proceedings while the man they've wrongly accused is named and shamed) thus making it harder for real victims to be taken seriously, wasting police time and public money and possibly committing perjury in the process....are actually being prosecuted? And just because they broke the law?Outrageous!
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Hmmmmnn Severus1If you are so offended by the naming and shaming you could always stop shaming people before they are convicted. Prosecutions are made public not to shame but as a method of guaranteeing transparency in the judicial process (secret trials is a scary road to start down).The authorities make the trial public, if shaming follows it is down to the rest of us not waiting for the trial before we start passing judgement.
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RayMullan HmmmmnnRecommend12... if shaming follows it is down to the rest of us not waiting for the trial before we start passing judgement.For heaven's sakes, the public cannot be blamed for the shame of an innocent party's prosecution when that prosecution is very obviously down to the lies of a vindictive accuser.Reading above the line there is no issue with victim's who are ultimately unable to prove rape due to lack of sufficient evidence but the issue is i fact to do with people abusing the legal process purely out of malice or spite.In which case they deserve all they get for the damage done to another's reputation for starters and the disastrous effect this brand of easy slander has on the entire issue of rape in any public forum.I'm shocked that the UK's judicial approach is not representative of the norm elsewhere in the world -- and appalled that WAR thinks it's appropriate to make a noise about this. They're overstepping their remit to advocate such a fundamental reversal of justice and doing fuck-all for any necessary advances they should make on public perception and handling of rape.
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Oliver23 sallyo57I agree with both points: anonymity for the accuser is necessary and open justice is important - but these two conflicting points demonstrate that there are degrees of openness that need to be considered.Not that I'd have a clue what to do about it. The media and the narratives it creates worry me far more than the system itself, but then if you change the system to protect against media chatter, you may well actually be a part of that same problem: media sensationalism driving political agenda.
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StanOne HmmmmnnProsecutions are made public not to shame but as a method of guaranteeing transparency in the judicial processIf that's the case, why is one side protected by anonymity? As a corollary, why is sex considered such a toxic subject, from which so many must be protected? We use it in everyday situations with wild and free abandon, but when it happens ( and I'd like to see an honest study of the proportion of accusations that amount to poor judgment and buyer's remorse) , it suddenly reverts to a shameful secret.It might be healthier if we could view it as a transaction, sometimes in the context of an affective relationship, sometimes because there's nothing good on the telly, and not get twisted into such a knot when, upon reflection, we decide it hadn't been such a great idea.Omitting acts of aggression and unequal power plays, could we try to steer people in general towards a more mature understanding of sex, and to encourage us all to consider why we engage in it, and to be sufficiently self- assured to extract ourselves from situations we have doubts or unease about. Instead of playing along and then tearing ourselves up about it.
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 6:47pm -
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7 people, 8 commentsamritRecommend49Some of you are getting it wrong.One is whether police is pursuing the rapists.Other is those who have been raped but they retracted this claim because police cajoled them and then police went on to prosecute them. I believe this is where problem is.Next is that some women just lied and tried to frame others. These should be prosecuted
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TurboMuncher amritRecommend22With respect to your second point, the CPS would still need to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt to a jury that the accuser had lied. Given how difficult that is to achieve, (as we see from the number of cases which fail in all crimes where the balance lies on one witness' account against another's) then only those people against whom overwhelming evidence proves they lied would be found guilty and punished.
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Hmmmmnn TurboMuncherWith respect to your point, that is exactly what happens with rape allegations too.
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pikeamus FeedtheSquirrelsThe article didn't give any examples, it just quoted someone from WAR saying that there are some.Also, we have no reason to believe that anyone from that catagory is in the 109 people that the headline figure refers to, since that figure seems to be the number convicted (i.e. have been found guilty at trial).
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happytourist Severus1The article does mention the case of Layla Ibrahim, and links to a more detailed article written at the time of her prosecution. Not that you can extrapolate much from a single instance, but this particular one broadly fits into the second category.
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 5:36pm -
5 people, 9 comments
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trazer985 DeemackRecommend32Just because it's called that, doesnt mean it's what it does. In fact, I would imagine this would fit well into the law of putting something nice in your title means you definitely don't do that. Case in point, the DPRK, DRC, PETA etc.Read what they're saying. All women that claim to be raped are raped, and courts that dont convict someone accused of rape are failing their victims/promoting rape culture.That's not quite the same as being against rape. Sure they are against rape, but take it a little bit further.By taking the stances that they do, they do more harm than good to rape cases. By making a song and dance about a case which is looking quite clearly to be the police were in the right, isn't going to bring about positive change.So, I stand by my comment, they are good for absolutely nothing.
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Deemack trazer985"… more harm than good to rape cases"? Really? You think a group of women campaigning against the epidemic of male-on-female sexual violence do more harm by championing accusers over rapists in a system that has for years (and continues to) done the complete opposite. I stand by my comment - you're a misogynist!
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trazer985 DeemackRecommend14See everyone elses thoughts on the matter above. Its not what they are campaigning for, its how they go about it which is destructive.Now to be really provocative. If women campaigning against rape was enough to fix it, it would have been fixed by now, wouldn't you think? Given that these organisations have never had more funding, influence or publicity (and conversely patriarchy has never been weaker) and rape rates are increasing (even the always reported stranger with a knife style cases), you MIGHT think that maybe, just maybe, they're doing something wrong.Crazy idea, from a misogynist too.
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SoberThirdThought Deemack(that campaigning women are responsible for the increase in rapes)That's not what he said!
Show 6 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 7:25pm -
6 people, 8 commentsSilversunpickupRecommend195The WAR organisation should be ashamed of itself for defending the actions of women who falsely claim to have been raped. Their agenda to try and persuade the public and government that fake rape claims are in any way acceptable is absolutely shameful.It is organisations like WAR who create more problems than they fix. No one should be defending people who make false rape claims, and WAR's speculative assertions that punishing these people makes real rape victims less likely to come forward is absolute nonsense. What an odious inversion of common sense.
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Deemack SilversunpickupRecommend66You really have twisted what has been said in this article. WAR are not saying false allegations of rape are acceptable. Their issue is with police aggressively pressurising accusers into retracting statements and then pursuing a prosecution for perverting the course of justice.
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TurboMuncher DeemackRecommend32If women really are being aggressively pressured into dropping claims and the police have no reason to believe they are lying then that is a very bad thing and should be tackled. Nowhere have I seen evidence this is the happening. Very often in the course of an investigation, and in interviewing witnesses, those investigating (who are trained to spot subtle signals in body language, changes in version of events, holes in stories, etc.) will come across something which gives cause to change their focus - or at least check out whether they're being lied to.Think of the sheer number of family members / community members who have appeared in news conferences for missing child searches who later end up on trial for murder. The police have spotted holes in their stories previously and deliberately put them out there in front of the cameras - it is a tactic used to draw out the gaps in a witness' reliability.The police would only be incentivised to charge somebody who they thought a case would succeed against, that is to say enough evidence they lied which would prove beyond reasonable doubt to a jury that they lied. An accuser who is telling the trust but who simply doesn't have enough evidence to pursue the rape claim would emphatically NOT be pursued as a lier.
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blackbroom TurboMuncherRecommend14If women really are being aggressively pressured into dropping claims and the police have no reason to believe they are lying then that is a very bad thing and should be tackled. Nowhere have I seen evidence this is the happening. Very often in the course of an investigation, and in interviewing witnesses, those investigating (who are trained to spot subtle signals in body language, changes in version of events, holes in stories, etc.) will come across something which gives cause to change their focus - or at least check out whether they're being lied to.But police, whether trained or not, aren't always very good at spotting whether someone is lying. Police were convinced that many of John Worboys's victims were lying, because the story of a cab driver plying a fare with champagne seemed to them far-fetched and time and again they were prepared to put the word of a licensed black cab driver over that of a woman who admitted she had been drinking. Admittedly, none of his victims was ever actually charged with making a false allegation, but it does demonstrate that police can't always accurately spot the lie.I also don't think you can compare the behaviour or family/acquaintances of missing children and that of alleged rape victims - the very trauma of rape can distort victims' memories of the event and it's not uncommon for genuine victims to tell an inconsistent story (especially in cases where drugs or alcohol - whether self-administered or administered by the rapist - are involved).
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TurboMuncher blackbroom"I also don't think you can compare the behaviour or family/acquaintances of missing children and that of alleged rape victims - the very trauma of rape can distort victims' memories of the event and it's not uncommon for genuine victims to tell an inconsistent story (especially in cases where drugs or alcohol - whether self-administered or administered by the rapist - are involved)."I wasn't saying they're exactly the same, simply that the investigators often have to change focus if they believe they're being lied to. There is no incentive to aggressively pursue an alleged rape victim as a lier unless the evidence is strong. The CPS won't take on any case which did not have cast iron evidence the alleged rape victim was making it all up and deliberately attempting to damage the alleged rapist. In fact were they to do so, it simply makes their own stats look worse when the case is not successful.The police are not infallible. They may well suspect a nervous alleged rape victim of lying through misreading her trauma symptoms but that would only result in some additional enquiries to ascertain whether their suspicion was merited or not. NOTHING will get to court unless the evidence is very substantial indeed.
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ID5252799 blackbroomYou're ignoring the fact that rape cases will also usually include physical signs of rape. It isn't only down to testimony and one person's word against the other.This might also explain why falsifying rape is so rare.
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dazedandconfused2 TurboMuncherNowhere have I seen evidence this is the happening.Well, it certainly used to happen and apparently Thames Valley police are so extremely keen that we don't get to know about it, it is very difficult to find the footage now...Given the pressure on the police to keep the stats low, I would be amazed if it does not still happen.
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 5:25pm -
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4 people, 5 commentsMarkmarkmark56Recommend83These cases seem to be pursued with a particular vehemence by the police and CPSAs well they should be. I mean imagine being falsely convicted of rape! That doesn't go away if you're vindicated and released, you become an object of suspicion for the rest of your life. Not to mention what happens to rapists in prison. Rape is the worst crime, bar murder, a man can commit on a woman, a false accusation of rape is the worst thing a woman can do to a man.
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RadkaVarhanova Markmarkmark56This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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alex13 Markmarkmark56Not to mention what can happen to the accused on the outside, I have heard of people giving a good beating to the person. Now I do not know if they are guilty or not. That being said I would presume that most reported ie 97%+ of reports the person is genuine in their belief of being violated. With out some form of 100% accurate truth detector we can never fully tell. I am not sure about the public naming of people, but I think it does in some cases get other victims coming forward.
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Markmarkmark56 alex13Indeed. I remember reading once about a falsely accused landlord, he was accused of murder by the Sun a few years ago mainly because he was odd looking. Anyway, he didn't do it but it ruined his life. I mean it doesn't matter how many people read the story that prooves you innocent because there will always be some violent numbskull dying to take the law into his own hands. Now for rape I'd imagine that that is 10 times worse.
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SoberThirdThought Markmarkmark56I would imagine that having once been charged with rape is enough to forever bar you from working in any position requiring a police record check -- school teacher, care worker, etc.
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 7:29pm -
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2 people, 2 commentsangryboyRecommend193"Lisa Longstaff, from War, said: “It’s appalling that .................. women who report violence are being imprisoned."I don't think that it is a case of women being imprisoned for reporting violence but that a court of law has decided that the women concerned made false allegations of violence. If Lisa Longstaff doesn't understand the difference then she shouldn't be in her job.
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viewfromairstripone angryboyRecommend10angryboy said: If Lisa Longstaff doesn't understand the difference then she shouldn't be in her job.It's not really a proper job, though, is it. As someone with a close relative who suffered the anguish of a false accusation of rape, I find her hysterical ranting offensive. Give yourself an organisational name and suddenly you get a bit of cred.But it must be said that the police in my relative's case (which involved two teenagers) were very sensitive, and offered him victim support after the charge was dropped.
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Tom_NightingaleRecommend66Rape is a very serious crime, so I think it must follow a false accusation is a serious crime.False claims may make it less likely that genuine claims will be investigated...a bit of a "cry wolf" effect.If a woman killed herself as consequence of a false claim of rape she had made, tough.
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2 people, 2 commentsID9552055Recommend148So 'Women against rape' are supporting women who went all out to completely destroy the life of another person - and by association to destroy the lives of the male and female members of their families.
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Nepthsolem ID9552055Not quite. They are using dubious comparisons to suggest that women who make false allegations in this country are pursued more ferociously than women in other countries.I call the comparison dubious, on the basis that they fail to make clear that a perjury conviction in the US can see you in prison for a very long time.
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5 people, 9 commentsHeywoodJRecommend158Couple of corrections;
Should read; Sandra Allen’s daughter Layla Ibrahim was seven months pregnant when she was jailed for three years for perverting the course of justice, after falsely reporting a sexual assault by two strangers.Sandra Allen’s daughter Layla Ibrahim was seven months pregnant when she was jailed for three years for perverting the course of justice, after reporting a sexual assault by two strangers.
Should read; Recent figures from Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, the police watchdog, revealed more than a quarter of alleged rape and sexual offences were found to be not crimes and were recorded as 'no-crimes.'Recent figures from Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary, the police watchdog, revealed more than a quarter of rape and sexual offences were not being recorded as crimesIt's just that without these corrections, they mean something entirely different and entirely inaccurate.-
headinthesandman HeywoodJRecommend37Another error (less serious than the ones you point out, but all the same you have to ask what kind of reporting this is):... to the Criminal Cases Review Commission, which pursues miscarriages of justice ..No it doesn't. The CCRC reviews the evidence (including new evidence) in cases where it is claimed that there has been a possible miscarriage of justice. If it concludes that the evidence suggests there may have been a miscarriage of justice, the commissioners refer the case to the Appeal Courts. The CCRC does not pursue anything or anybody.
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EarlyVictoria HeywoodJfound to be not crimes and were recorded as 'no-crimesNot sure if you would be saying that if you'd been burgled and it was "no-crimed". Because that happens all the time.
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HeywoodJ EarlyVictoriaRecommend11I'm not sure how you know that something which is deemed to be not a crime, actually is a crime and that this is happening "all the time" - but for the sake of answering your question - yes I would be saying that because If I'd been burgled and it was reported as 'no-crime,' it wouldn't alter the rape and sexual assault allegations which were found to be not crimes and reported as 'no-crime.'If the wrong conclusion is arrived at in an investigation, it doesn't automatically follow that the wrong conclusion will be arrived at in a different investigation.
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Evonne Marie HeywoodJHave you read the previous Guardian article on the case. Sounds truly bizarre: http://www.theguardian.com/law/2011/aug/12/layla-jailed-after-reporting-sexual-assault
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HeywoodJ Evonne MarieIt is a very bizarre story but the Guardian's sentence is worded as if the woman was jailed for (or despite) reporting a sex attack which is - at best - highly misleading.
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EarlyVictoria HeywoodJYou obviously haven't followed the debate about "no criming". The point is that when complaints are "no crimed" there IS NO investigation. There is a national scandal about how some police forces massage their figures by excessive levels of "no criming", and the government has frequently promised to do something about it.
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HeywoodJ EarlyVictoria
That's a logical contradiction; if there was a national scandal about police massaging their figures then it wouldn't be a debate, it would be a conclusion. And you're right - it is a debate - and unless a conclusion is arrived at which proves that police massage their figures, it remains a debate.You obviously haven't followed the debate about "no criming"...There is a national scandal about how some police forces massage their figures by excessive levels of "no criming"
Correct. How it works is that the police have to accrue evidence regarding an allegation which they forward to the CPS, who decide if there's sufficient evidence to prosecute. The police can't forward an allegation with no evidence. They might forward an allegation with evidence and find that the CPS still won't prosecute because the evidence is insufficient.The point is that when complaints are "no crimed" there IS NO investigation.In both instances the allegation is 'no-crimed,' because an allegation isn't a crime.If you're alleged to have committed a crime and no evidence is found to forward the allegation to the CPS for prosecution, then you won't be recorded as a criminal or receive a criminal record, as the allegation will be recorded as 'no-crime.'
Show 6 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 6:02pm -
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Michael GinerThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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5 people, 6 commentsdourscotRecommend93So in the last year there were 3,692 prosecutions for rape and 109 for alleged false accusations of rape.Using what measurement is this a sign of the "aggressive pursuit" of false allegations? That's a ratio of almost 34:1.
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MistahKurt dourscotRecommend68Actually its 109 prosecutions over 5 years, ie just over 20 per annum. So the ratio is 175:1
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Bjerkley MistahKurtIt will be even higher, since someone can be prosecuted for making a false allegation (i.e. a report which may not lead to a prosecution for rape), so the starting figure is as high as 14,000 or so.
Show 3 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 4:57pm -
BjerkleyRecommend35Lots to unpack here. There are around 14-15,000 reported rapes of women per year. So, that means that there have been prosecutions for false allegations in about 0.14% of cases (figures by no means exact).The Home Office report a few years indicated that probably around 3% of allegations are false (and up to a maximum of 9%), so it's difficult to see this as being an over-zealous approach to prosecution unless the argument is that no one should be prosecuted at all, and I don't see the reasoning why this in particular shouldn't be a crime.The CPS have good guidance on the need for caution in prosecuting such crimes where there are issues such as vulnerabilities or where other crimes may have been committed against the person who made the allegation.The real issue is the still ongoing scepticism at the reporting stage which leads to a more allegations being marked as a no crime where that's unlikely to be the case, but I think focusing on actual prosecutions is the wrong approach.
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MartinRDBThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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2 people, 2 commentsgopro38Recommend58Nobody is being prosecuted for failure to prove rape, the handful that do are prosecuted because there is evidence they made it up.
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SolarDeathRayTower gopro38Recommend17because there is evidence they made it upbecause the police (in the first instance) and ultimately the CPS (and please bear in mind that some people in the police believe that it's an acronym for "Couldn't Prosecute Satan") believe that they can prove beyond all reasonable doubt that they made it up.And I think it's the case that all prosecutions relating to false accusations of rape have had to be referred to (and be signed off by) the Director of Public Prosecutions personally since 2010.
Having your files scrutinised by the uber-uber-uber-uber-boss is quite a disincentive to prosecute at all, if there is even the slightest doubt in the mind of the (junior) CPS people who are putting the files together. It's not as if there are many alternative employers for prosecutors in this country.
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hamptoncourtThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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Severus1Recommend173Lisa Longstaff, from War, said: “It’s appalling that when over 90% of rapists are getting away with it and two women a week are killed by partners or ex-partners, women who report violence are being imprisoned."Except the women in these cases aren't reporting violence are they, Lisa? They're lying. That's why they're being prosecuted.I hope that clears up any confusion you have about this subject.
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7 people, 7 commentskoolkarmaukRecommend25The patriarchal UK justice system in action, pouring countless resources to tackle a tiny issue. The reality is somewhat different though."The Crown Prosecution Service is investigating whether thousands of suspected rape cases have been wrongly discontinued over the last two years because police forces or its own lawyers are misinterpreting official guidelines.Since 2011 the number of rape cases referred by the police to the Crown Prosecution Service for charging decisions has fallen by a third – despite a 3 per cent rise in reported rapes over the period. The number of people charged with rape by the CPS over that period has fallen by 14 per cent."http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/revealed-thousands-of-rape-cases-thrown-out--as-charges-fall-following-new-cps-guidelines-9105454.html
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voiceofapeople koolkarmaukRecommend27Utter rubbish, if someone will maliciously destroy someone's life then they deserve to face the law to its full extent. Why are females and female led organisations so blind to the full effects of this to the victim, who in many cases, is now the man.With have this furore about one unfortunate woman, who alone knows whether her accusation was malicious or not, taking her life, when there's no recognition to the amount of men who take their lives after a false accusation.Believe me, I now no longer indulge in one night stands with women, regardless of the invitation, because I don't want to be in the position where I'll be fretting whether my willing sexual partner would suddenly change her mind because I'm not willing to see her again afterwards.I now only have sex with partners I've been with for over two weeks and have had a chance to evaluate their character. Women are complex people as much as men, and sometimes I just don't know what motivates them. I see them fall over themselves to get close to footballers, then sell their stories in the media, then complain that they don't want to be objectified, I just can't explain them.
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Salcombe voiceofapeopleRecommend10As a 26 male I absolutely concur.It's appalling the lack of understanding from some women (and it is a minority, but a hugely vocal one) of the incredible damage a false rape accusation can have on a man. Both emotionally, personally and professionally.People who make up false rape claims and can be proven to have done so should be pursued as vehemently as rapists.
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onetoomanygrapes koolkarmaukI suspect your comment is going to go conveniently overlooked by a lot of people commenting here..
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SoberThirdThought koolkarmaukIt's not a "tiny issue" if an innocent person's life is destroyed by a false accusation -- regardless of the sex of the accuser and accused.
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therebythegrace voiceofapeopleI now only have sex with partners I've been with for over two weeks and have had a chance to evaluate their character. Women are complex people as much as men, and sometimes I just don't know what motivates them.Ooh you sound like a charmer. Your two week self-imposed ban must be an absolute loss for all those 'complex' females.And how kind of you to suggest women could be 'as complex as men' - I mean I always thought we women were so simple compared to those deep men!
Show 4 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 8:20pm -
3 people, 3 commentsaarthoorRecommend96WTF? Of course they should be prosecuted. I can't think of much worse than being falsely accused of rape.Maybe they should put their efforts into teaching women that it's an extremely bad and unfair thing to do?
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3 people, 4 commentsqueequeg7Recommend25The reasons for a false allegation of rape are often complex and confused. Sometimes there is even uncertainty in the mind of the victim. The police need to be aware of this and deal with complainants with a degree of sensitivity. The number of unreported and unpursued cases of rape far outnumber allegations which are malicious.
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toadbrother queequeg7Recommend21And how should the legal system deal with those who are victims of false accusations of rape?
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queequeg7 toadbrotherRecommend12For what it's worth, my own view is that rape cases should be dealt with by an examining Magistrate who has responsibility for determining the likely truth. I don't think the jury system is the best way of protecting victims, or arriving at a correct verdict. I think this way of dealing with rape would also afford a degree of protection to those against whom false allegations are made.
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MarkWE queequeg7Recommend10The reasons for a false allegation of rape are often complex and confused. Sometimes there is even uncertainty in the mind of the victim.Should we be quite so forgiving of those who commit other crimes? Or is it just making false accusations that can ruin the life of the victim that we should just write off
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4 people, 4 commentsEmily AlgarRecommend44I think the argument WAR is making is that a lot of these women go the Police when they are attacked and are persuaded by the authorities to drop their claims, and are then prosecuted. I don't think WAR are suggesting that women who maliciously claim to be have been raped should not be prosecuted but rather those who have retracted claims based on Police coercion should not be prosecuted.
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mesophyll Emily AlgarRecommend16If someone is being prosecuted, would it not make sense in the absence of other evidence to assume the reason they were "coerced" into retracting their complaint was because the police had enough evidence to prosecute for a false claim?WAR's claim requires an extraordinarily malicious police force in comparison - extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and they have provided none. The reasonable conclusion is they have simply decided all claims are true, and contradictory evidence, like successful prosecutions, is filed under "conspiracy".
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crystaltips2 Emily AlgarYou seem to be working on the assumption that dropping or retracting the accusation is alone sufficient grounds to secure a PCJ conviction from a jury. Is this correct?
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3 people, 3 commentssmokedherringRecommend30I am somewhat right wing, and have no problem with a range and severity of punishments that would horrify many readers of this newspaper. I also consider rape to be amongst the vilest crimes - something that makes me feel sick and furrious and ashamed of my gender. In my universe, those of my fellow males proved to have committed it would wish that they had been born cockroaches. I do not exaggerate. But by those same tokens, I have no doubt at all that false accusations should be prosecuted and punished on every occasion.
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bananamanrules smokedherringThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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JoannaDark smokedherringTypical directionless, angry, slightly weird UKIP rant, full of fantasies of violence against others.
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7 people, 7 commentsranelagh75Recommend132
No, what's appalling is that this woman assumes that every accusation of rape is a cast-iron example of a crime. Those accused of rape but not convicted are not automatically 'rapists' who have 'got away with it'.It’s appalling that when over 90% of rapists are getting away with itApparently she's never heard of the bedrock legal principle of our society: the accused are innocent until proven guilty, regardless of their gender or that of the accuser.-
Rhapsodin ranelagh75Recommend38Besides, it seems to becoming regrettably fashionable for someone to cry rape when a relationship involving sex goes wrong.
Very soon it will be necessary to have a triplicate set of consent forms just to be sure one is "covered". -
Woolchin maryjane01Recommend14maryjane01 said: Any statistics to back that up?
No, of course not silly. You dont't need statistics for an armchair rant. -
RadkaVarhanova Rhapsodineven that doesn't help, because a woman can withdraw consent at any time.Imagine if a guy sweet talks a lady into signing a consent form, giving her consent on video etc, then brutally rapes her every which way. Do you think she'll go to the police? Would it stand up in court?
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caerperis maryjane01Don't be ludicrous. Who on earth goes around collecting statistics for sex that goes wrong? It's not even mentioned in the main but most of us with common sense and life experience know that consensual sex can, and does, go wrong and one or both partners to the act has/have feelings of shame or doubt their self-worth.
Show 4 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 4:11pm -
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retariusThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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2 people, 2 commentsEmily AlgarRecommend27War says it is supporting several women who say they were forced into retracting their rape complaint by police and then told they would be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice.This seems to be part of the text that a lot of readers are overlooking. Though to be fair the article doesn't actually get to this point until halfway down.
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Salcombe Emily AlgarRecommend10Several women. In my mind that is between 2 and about 8.
If it is the case that they were pressured into dropping their (legitinmate) claims and then charged then it is a worthy cause to champion and get to the bottom of.However what about the other 100 prosecuted for proven false rape claims? Why does War think these should not be pursued?
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3 people, 3 commentsRhapsodinRecommend10There are probably more false allegation cases where justice has failed because, in the final analysis, it's a he-said-she-said issue, so I think every case should be investigated and prosecuted if a result seems possible.
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onetoomanygrapes RhapsodinOf course, because we all know that that he-said-she-said has always favourited women..
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catsbody RhapsodinNo. It is a " His DNA/ Her DNA " issue if it is promptly reported. And that would resolve it. But waitng a few days, then realising he has other girl friends and deciding to take revenge when he prefers another, doesnt convince a jury. Either it was rape at the time, and remains rape ,or the jury is going to consider the accusers` motive. and the reason for the delay. Its not a criminal offence to have several girl friends and like another better. You cant be a little bit unwilling anymore than you can be a little bit pregnant, and you are not allowed to decide afterwards.There is always he HIV defence..Tell him you havent been able to get a boyfriend since you were first diagnosed with HIV. Might save both of you a lot of trouble.
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jim2509Recommend19Erm excuse me that's less than one in two hundred and doesn't include those the Police suspect but can't prove it.So it's okay for a female to falsely accuse people of rape which gets proven, destroying their lives and then walk away scott free?What the hell is up with these people, liberals are a danger to society and common sense.Never mind about the victims of such disgusting 'proven' false allegations eh.
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4 people, 4 commentsshervGRecommend73Obviously they should be jailed, false rape accusations could destroy a man's life!!
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toadbrother shervGRecommend10But you read the article. Some of these false accusers are "vulnerable."
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trazer985 toadbrotherRecommend21what percentage of rapists are mentally ill (drug abusers or paranoid schizophrenics?)Are they vulnerable too?
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SolarDeathRayTower toadbrotherRecommend15But you read the article. Some of these false accusers are "vulnerable."By the time the falsely accused have been dragged as far through the legal process as it takes for the falseness of the accusation to be established (the longest example that I can find is from the US, where an innocent man was prosecuted, convicted and served nineteen years in prison (particularly unpleasant if you've been labelled a sex offender)before his "victim" confessed that she'd been an entirely willing participant) it wouldn't be unreasonable to describe the victims of these false accusers as "newly vulnerable".
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3 people, 3 commentsHeywoodJRecommend80
Leaving aside that she couldn't possibly know what percentage of rapists are getting away with it, her logic seems to be 'some men are getting away with rape, why should women be punished for falsely accusing some other men who didn't rape?'Lisa Longstaff, from War, said: “It’s appalling that when over 90% of rapists are getting away with it and two women a week are killed by partners or ex-partners, women who report violence are being imprisoned.-
SoberThirdThought ID7776906What insults this reader's intelligence is WAR's twisted logic in defence of people who are proven in a court of law to have falsely accused someone of a serious crime.
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8 people, 8 commentsdyspraxicroseRecommend20This is so true. A false allegation is taken far more seriously than rape.This is still a country run by, and for, men. In other cultures rape is taken far more seriously- as it should be.It is a crime against women AND a crime against society, since it undermines the mutual trust between men and women, as well as attacking the self-confidence and self-esteem of its victims.
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McHenry dyspraxicroseRecommend27In many cases the false allegation is far more serious than the alleged offence.
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pg89019 dyspraxicroseRecommend45This isn't an article about how seriously rape is taken; nor does anyone here need the consequences of rape to be explainedThis is an article about false accusations, which should absolutely be seriously pursued and punished. False accusation is also a crimes against society, undermines the mutual trust between men and women, as well as attacking the self-confidence and self-esteem of its victims.
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crystaltips2 dyspraxicroseIt is a crime against women AND a crime against society, since it undermines the mutual trust between men and women, as well as attacking the self-confidence and self-esteem of its victims.Yes. And so is rape.
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bananamanrules dyspraxicroseThis comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our community standards. Replies may also be deleted. For more detail see our FAQs.
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Odradek_ dyspraxicroseYou could just as easily argue that false accusations are a 'crime against society'. The results are exactly what you've described.
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 01 December 2014 6:47pm -
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4 people, 4 commentsoffshoretomorrowRecommend101One of the least likeable characteristics of the Guardian is its eagerness to encourage wildly one-sided polemics - on very serious subjects that demand scrupulous and rational examination.
See also Gary Younge on 'race'.-
ID7776906 offshoretomorrowRecommend31I agree and it is sensationalism journalism. Mr Young has an axe to grind and often insults our intelligence.
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3 people, 3 commentspikeamusRecommend75women who report violence are being imprisoned.Are they? I thought this was about women who had falsely accused someone, and who had then been found guilty of doing so in a court of law.Also, 109 prosecuted in five years vs 3.692 prosecutions for rape in 2013 alone. Proportionately, that is an extremely small number. I'm surprised that anyone would find it worryingly or off-puttingly large. If the prosecutions were legitimate, it would suggest that ~0.5% of reports of rape were maliciously false. I've no idea if that is ballpark correct, but it doesn't sound improbable.
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JakeSERecommend37Perverting the course of justice is a crime that will always be pursued. Attempting to warp the mechanisms that protect us as individuals for your own benefit in that manner is a bad thing, m'kay.It's not just reserved for false rape claimants. Try lying in court and see where it gets you.I suspect these people confuse advocating women on the grounds of equality with simply advocating women.
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