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not christian, just curious (self.TrueChristian)

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[–]Assemblies of Godeddrix 21 ポイント22 ポイント  (26子コメント)

[Romans 1:26-27] seems to portray it negatively.

[–]light_of_the_world 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (25子コメント)

1 Corinthians 6:9 also states this pretty clearly.

Homosexuals are not righteous people.

[–]Evangelical Anglicanflabbergaffe -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (24子コメント)

Language like this is really not helpful. What do you mean by 'homosexual'? Orientation? Sexual practice? What do you mean by 'not righteous people'? Not saved? Sinful by nature?

[–]CowboyBigBoss 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Language like that is what the Bible uses.

[–]Evangelical Anglicanflabbergaffe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (17子コメント)

I disagree. The bible condemns as sinful lusts of the heart and sinful sexual activity, which includes both heterosexual and homosexual types. That doesn't mean somebody who has a certain orientation, i.e. proclivity for temptation towards a particular kind of sin is in a special category of being 'not righteous'. You or I are just as separated from God without the cross as somebody who identifies as gay.

When we say 'homosexuals = sinners' we are implying something beyond what the bible teaches. Of course homosexual individuals are sinners, just like you and I are. But just by virtue of having a proclivity for one type of sin over another does not make them less righteous than I am for having a proclivity towards heterosexual lust.

According to the bible those who practice homosexuality are guilty of sin which must be addressed by the blood of Christ to be sure, and if someone like that were to become a believer we would counsel them to change their behaviour and examine the lusts of their heart, but we would not claim that they must change their 'orientation' in order to be reconciled to God. For some this might happen, God can change people miraculously, but for many, even most perhaps, this won't happen, and claiming that it always will is claiming more than the Bible does.

[–]CowboyBigBoss 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (12子コメント)

You're assuming it's genetic.

[–]Evangelical Anglicanflabbergaffe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I'm not basing my argument on whether or not it's genetic. I'm basing it on the language the bible uses. And I'm not assuming orientation is genetic. The evidence suggests a variety of contributing factors, including genetics, epigenetics, environment (nurture), and choice. It's so complicated that we don't really know.

My point is that we, as Christians who hold a conservative view on the bible's teaching on homosexuality, need to recognise that it is a complex issue with nuance. I'm not saying we fudge what the bible says, rather the opposite; that we look closely and fully understand what it is saying in the fullness of the narrative of grace. When we draw black and white lines that condemn people without unpacking it, and offering biblical explanations that make sense and hold up to scrutiny, all we are doing is playing to the stereotype of the church as a conservative backwards institution that hides behind religious teachings to push a bigoted worldview. How could you ever communicate to someone who identified as gay, that they can be saved if the message is simply "you're gay therefore you're damned". Well my message to you is "you're straight therefore you're damned", since without Jesus, your thoughts and actions are no more pure than that gay person.

Edit: Rearranged last sentence for clarity.

[–]CowboyBigBoss 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Fair enough.

Scripture says there's a difference between struggling against a sin and embracing a sin.

[–]nagrd 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not commenting on the argument, but I want to read the verses, could you tell me the reference please?

[–]Evangelical Anglicanflabbergaffe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Agree! That's exactly the kind of distinction that I'm suggesting you should be making but are not when you say something like "homosexuals are not righteous people".

[–]CowboyBigBoss 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I didn't say that. The poster above me did.

I simply said that verbatim that is what the Bible says.

And there's a difference between a homosexual and a person with homosexual temptations.

[–]light_of_the_world 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

The Bible clearly states, multiple times, that all forms of homosexuality are sinful. Moreover, look to the Sermon on the Mount - even if a person does not act upon his or her sinful desires, the mere presence of such desires is a sin in itself.

The focus of Christianity is reigning in the errant mind and bringing oneself to repentance through Christ. To this end, homosexuals fail because they are not repentant people. Some are in denial of God's word, while others believe that there's at least one sin not worth giving up for Him.

And to address accusations of elevating one category of sin above all others, it is not Christians who have done this - the blame here lies with society. Society has brought the issue of homosexuality to the forefront of religion, to the forefront of politics, to the forefront of entertainment, and so on. Homosexuality is the major issue of this decade, and we as Christians need to take a strong stand by adhering to the Scriptures, even when it is socially unpopular to do so.

[–]Evangelical Anglicanflabbergaffe -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

homosexuals fail because they are not repentant people

I know several people who have denounced their homosexual desires, and are repentant, who fight against their sinful desires, but have not experienced any change in their orientation, and do not experience desires for heterosexual sex. They honour Jesus with their lives, and are prepared to forsake acting on homosexual desires for the sake of the Lord. Are you saying that such a person is not 'repentant'?

To make such a claim would similarly condemn any other Christian who is in the process of regeneration after claiming Christ as lord but who still struggles with sin in their life. The desire for sin is not their core desire, so it is no longer them who sin but sin that dwells within them. Yet they still occasionally behave sinfully, or have sinful thoughts. Is this person not 'repentant'?

This is the kind of distinction that you are not making clearly when you condemn 'homosexuals'. 1 Corinthians 9

1 Corinthians 6:9English Standard Version (ESV)

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[b]

It does not say men who are homosexual or men who fail to practice heterosexuality.

[–]light_of_the_world 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

These people still need to renounce their homosexual orientation, which is simply a social construct and is not a scientific diagnosis.

[–]Evangelical Anglicanflabbergaffe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Certainly, but we need to recognise that actual sexual preferences may not change, or change slowly, and that this doesn't mean that such a person is not repentant or not welcome in church. If persistent sin after conversion disqualified a person from these things, then we'd all be out on the street. The question is does the individual defend or tolerate their own sin, or do they actively denounce it and fight against it?

The reason I'm making a big deal is because while some Christians may consider orientation only a social construct, it is still the prevalent understanding of sexuality in western society. Unless we change our language to more clearly communicate the distinction we are making between the sinner and the sin, we lose the attention of the listener before they've heard the message since our position is written off as 'bigoted'.

Am I making any sense?

[–]Free Will BaptistL3ADboy 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

[Romans 3:10]

[–]ChristianVerseBot 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Romans 3:10 | English Standard Version (ESV)

[10] as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;

Source Code | /r/VerseBot | Contact Dev | FAQ | Changelog | Statistics

All texts provided by BibleGateway and TaggedTanakh

[–]Evangelical Anglicanflabbergaffe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Precisely my point.

[–]cantbebotheredwithit 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You make it sound like lgbt people are somehow less righteous than everybody else.

[–]Evangelical Anglicanflabbergaffe 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is the exact opposite of my argument.