9 clueless things white people say when confronted with racism
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Daring to talk about
Iggy Azalea’s racism and cultural appropriation doesn’t make me a racist.
But judging from the tens of thousands of Web comments,
tweets
and Facebook
posts about the piece, “How to talk to white people about Iggy Azalea,” those of us who dare criticize appropriation in hip-hop are part of the problem for “making this about race” and halting society from true progress on racial equity. Nothing could be further from the truth.
It’s about time we unpack all of the clueless vitriol that often comes from white people when we dare to talk about
race.
Unfortunately, this episode reinforces a dismal reality in our racial climate: We still haven’t arrived to a point where we can have an open, honest and productive conversation about
racism. And, generally speaking, it’s really not anyone’s fault.
Unless you’ve gone to a
university
or a high school where the issue of privilege—racial and otherwise—has been the subject of a school workshop or a classroom discussion, reading articles about it on the Internet may very well be the first time you encounter the subject matter. And no one’s faulting you for that, because there’s even something to be said about the
educational privilege
that corresponds with having opportunities to access
intellectually rigorous academic settings.
But now that we have the
Internet, we have a community-sourced space to have these discussions organically. Because of the immense amount of information available, not just those long lists of
cat GIFs, there’s not too much time left for excusing people who aren’t using it as a resource to learn about racial prejudice and
white privilege.
It seems as though, when the conversation isn’t as clear cut, such as when whites use the n-word or refuse services based on skin color, just bringing up racism puts many on the defensive or prompts the angered denial of its existence. That’s the reaction many black and people of color are absolutely tired of receiving from so many people who have racial privilege, all of whom will never have any tangible idea of what it’s like to experience the daily social and institutional indignities of being non-white in America.
Many people of color want the space to discuss these issues within a culture where white voices are hyper-amplified––to have their voices heard and respected, even if the emotions come from a place of pain.
As people who benefit from racial privilege, whites can support the leadership of people of color by first challenging these deeply-ingrained myths about racism before entering into a conversation about it, especially with people of color:
1) “You’re racist for making this an issue of race.”
More often than not, when a person of color brings up racism, chances are there’s something problematic happening. It’d be naive to assume that people of color simply exist as opportunists who pounce on any single chance to make a big deal about racism. If you’re tired of
hearing about racism, how tired do you think people of color are from having to live surrounded by racism in the first place?
2) “I don’t see race. I only see the human race.”
While this may sound revolutionary, so-called color-blindness is actually
part of the problem. Not “seeing race” is simply a lazy coded phrase for deliberately ignoring the lingering elements of racism that actually need to be fixed and reinforces the privilege of being able to bypass the negative effects of racism in the first place. As the saying goes, “You can’t erase what you cannot face.”
3) “Talking about issues in terms of ‘white people’ and ‘white privilege’ is reverse racism.”
About that reverse racism thing... it doesn’t exist. It’s no secret that it is humanly possible for a person of color to be prejudiced against whites. Sometimes, it’s an attitude that develops over time because their experience with racism has drawn them to the conclusion that no “good” white people exist in the world. And although there’s a lot of healing that needs to happen in that much more seldom instance of prejudice, the attitude itself doesn’t come with an entire system of benefits and institutional power that being white affords in America. That’s the difference between racism and prejudice, because racism at its root is about supremacy.
4) “You [person of color] clearly don’t know what racism is. According to Webster’s Dictionary...”
Don’t do it. Step away from this infantilizing situation to avoid being a white person dictating how racism works to a person of color, despite their actual lived experiences with it. As for how Webster’s and other dictionaries defines the issue? The oversimplification is a topic that merits an entire thesis.
5) “You [person of color] said something about white people doing racist things, so I demand you explain this to me right now.”
People of color are not on-demand racial justice educators, especially if they have no relationship or affinity with someone seeking the knowledge. In the age of the Internet, if you don’t know someone from a particular community you can speak with, you can likely find those voices on
blogs, on
Twitter, or even in columns and news articles, talking about the very things you’re seeking to understand. Instead of taxing the already tapped reserves of people of color when dealing with racism, try self-educating before knocking on someone’s door.
6) “But my [person of color] friend said it was OK if I did it [racially problematic thing].”
Still, it’s not the best idea to apply that relational dynamic with one friend to an entire group of people, many of whom have a different relationship with certain words, phrases or actions. Would you touch the hair of a black female stranger just because your black female friend allows you to touch hers?
7) “Stop attacking me for having privileges just because I’m white. It’s racist and hurtful.”
When people critique racism and white privilege in America, they’re speaking generally
about a system
and not the individual. Unless, that is, an individual instance merits the person being held accountable for their actions (i.e. Donald Sterling,
Paula Deen,
Iggy Azalea).
8) “I’m sick of pretending that [people of color] need special rights and programs just because they aren’t white. We have problems too, you know.”
To have problems in life is an inherent part of the human condition. But it takes humility, grace and empathy to take the time and space for reflection and self-examination to truly understand that some of us have it much better than others—despite our often
half-hearted efforts
to ensure equal opportunities
for everyone, especially blacks
and people of color. Yes, whites can be poor, or female, or
LGBT, or immigrants, or have white skin but actually be multi-ethnic, the list goes on. That’s why intersectionality matters, and it includes an interrogation of racial privilege.
9) [Insert tear-filled expression of white privilege guilt or denial here.]
First, it’s okay to have emotions and to feel genuinely remorseful when it’s clear that a cruelly reprehensible system has been perpetuated in a word or an action. Emotional policing isn’t cool, and people of color know it all too well. However, more often than not, when the
tears flow, they correlate with an outright rejection of the idea that whiteness in America is privileged and normalized in virtually every social and institutional structure. In this instance, instead of centering the many, intensely hurtful experiences of people of color, the person has
derailed the conversation
and made it completely about them.
It not only shifts accountability in a way that’s been historically dangerous, it also reinforces the very privilege being interrogated: Because these white tears and white feelings are often prioritized above the lived struggles of non-white people.
Derrick Clifton is a NYC-based journalist and writer primarily covering race, gender and LGBT issues, and their intersections with politics. Follow him on Twitter, on Facebook, or visit derrickclifton.com for more information on his work.
Photo via Iggy Azalea/YouTube
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Perhaps we cannot ease the current conditions for people by adding more words to it... so maybe those of us living life from the privileged configuration really need to stop trying to say so much, even with our best intentions, and really just listen and get that whatever is being said comes with an experience of life that keeps getting the above reactions instead of just being gotten. I will try to listen from a place of love and caring, and really just hear what is being said, feel the person's experience, and get there is a commitment behind their saying it that likely has nothing to do with us personally.
As long as the black community thinks they are victims they will be. There are too many successful black people in the world to say they lack opportunity. Let's move on.
While that is true in some respects there are also way more black people being killed in astronomical numbers because of their skin color. How can you refrain from being a victim when your judicial system continually defends other races when they are blatantly wrong. The system is rooted in racism and has been formed to deny the black races of their rights and opportunities. I thank god that some black people have become successful, but due to the scarcity in school supplies in black neighborhoods and programs to keep the students involved in their learning those numbers will dwindle down. And let me tell you "we" as a black community have to deal with the notion of not being TOO successful placed on us by white supremacy.
Respectfully, the system wasn't formed to deny the black races of their rights and opportunities. That aspect of the system came about due to the beliefs and customs of the time and, sadly, in many ways has been continued through the generations, intentionally by a few, by ignorance and disinterest by others.
Certainly it doesn't change how people feel today, but I think we need to acknowledge the more realistic truth of history. And that the greatest damage is not caused by those who are vicious and hateful, but by those who are apathetic, those who dismiss the importance of things because it does not immediately impact their personal world.
I would like to thank you for acknowledging that there is work to be done within the black community on the self perceptions that were taught, in many cases literally beaten into, generations ago that have been handed down from parent to child to this day.
It doesn't matter how much others might change, until the inner heart is ready to hear and see those changes, none of it will matter.
This is why I believe that the true heroes in the communities are those who teach the children to have pride in themselves, and how to recognise and share their strengthes, and how not to give power to those who would hold them back, or lead them to detrimental things. So much is lost when even one child can not recognise their full potential, for so many to not even realise they have potential in one community is a tragedy.
What is successful ? Making money bound by a contact and aggreement that limits your ability to make statements, donate to causes of your choice , disconnect from things you have done all your life. To "please" the people who are paying you . Get over that. None of the above excludes you from racism or personal mental anguish you have to deal with from many of the above noted situations
This article is race-baiting bullshit. I hope you enjoy what you have created, a civil war where blacks will be annihilated by everyone else who is not black.
We're tired of you.
I'm going to try to express this from a different perspective.
1) “You’re racist for making this an issue of race.”
I've never heard this said to anyone, though I can see how it could be. I don't know when it happened that everything became about race. It's not. But I am sorry that in the world of so many it has become that.
Just try to understand that when I say no to you. Or when I have to refuse to give you something you've asked for. I am doing it not because of your skin colour, but because I don't have it, or don't want to do what you want, or can't give you want you want because my boss says so.
2) “I don’t see race. I only see the human race.”
I've heard this said by white people, black people, mixed people, etc. More often than not, it is said by someone who is attempting to cross the divide that is between races. They are saying 'I see you as my equal'. Now, of course I see race, it's an integral part of a person, it's a descriptive. But I certainly don't judge you by your skin colour, or heritage.
3) “Talking about issues in terms of ‘white people’ and ‘white privilege’ is reverse racism.”
Nope, sorry, speaking of white privilege is not reverse racism. But saying 'you white people' is. It would never occur to me to say 'you black people'. I don't lump people in groups to judge them. Nor should you.
As to white privilege... yes, it exists, but it's hard for many to recognise, even harder to understand when we've watched others receive benefits for no other reason than their skin colour. I've wondered how is that fair? How can you feel good getting something just because of how you look? That's when I realised that's how so many have felt in the past. But please don't judge me because of the privilege I was born to. I've never consciously used it. I never realised it was happening. Now that I can see where it might have happened, I hate that it did. Like you, I want to be judged on my actions and who I truly an, not what I look like.
4) “You [person of color] clearly don’t know what racism is. According to Webster’s Dictionary...”
Okay, a really dumb thing to say, but please don't presume that I haven't experienced racism just because I look white. You don't know my history, and different things happen in different places, different countries.
Do what you want me to do. Stop. Listen. Try to understand.
5) “You [person of color] said something about white people doing racist things, so I demand you explain this to me right now.”
I'm not going to comment on this because I've never run into it. But I would hope that instead of that someone would say 'I'm sorry, I don't understand. I want to, could you please explain what you see that I can't.'
6) “But my [person of color] friend said it was OK if I did it [racially problematic thing].”
~sighs~ yep, clueless, but the friend isn't so swift either for letting them perpetuate the troubling action.
7) “Stop attacking me for having privileges just because I’m white. It’s racist and hurtful.”
I hear that you're upset, angry, hurt, it scares me, hurts me. I didn't do anything wrong I was just born with this skin colour. I didn't know what it would give me. I didn't know that it gave me anything. I can't see what you see unless you show me.
8) “I’m sick of pretending that [people of color] need special rights and programs just because they aren’t white. We have problems too, you know.”
You tell me that it's wrong for me to benefit because of my skin colour, but it's okay for you to benefit from yours. I don't understand this. I don't understand how you'd want it. How is it any better to take from me to give to you than it was for people in the past to take from one to give to another? It just sounds like revenge to me. I want to understand how you see it differently, but I can't without your help.
9) [Insert tear-filled expression of white privilege guilt or denial here.]
I hear that you're angry. I hear that you're hurt. But I don't understand what I've done wrong. I'm trying to listen, I'm trying to hear you, but I can't when you're angry, when you come at me with all the weight that's been laid on your shoulders and carried from generatoin to generation. I know it's a lot to ask, in light of what I know of history, but for me to even begin to understand how you feel, I need to hear your voice calm and clear. I need you not to judge me for things done by people who look like me. Give me a chance.
I have racial bias. Plenty of others as we'll... I actively try to recognize them and work hard to correct my thinking. Sorry though, I cant take responsibility for "society" and will not be sorry or ashamed of who I am
@Eric Roseberry
Consider race does not exist, and therefore by deduction racial bias cannot exist.
the problem we face today is how racism presents its self. not as apartheid or Jim Crow but as a system that makes everything that much harder where things don't quite match in terms of percentages of demographics who have power in economics in politics in everything, and the percentages of the demographics who live in the world. if we look at south Africa we can see the problem at its height. Black people are in government yes but the power is held by a few corrupt men who are in the pocket of rich white men.
Derick thank you, it just happened to me an hour ago, exactly those explained by you. That is why I started to Google and found your blog.
I was at a car rental place in my hood and I was asked for first for major debit card, I said yes and this evil girl goes on asking me if I used the card to pay utilities and said yes. I asked for black SUV and she was fast to say we do not have black SUV. Now it become clear to me she do not want me have what I want which is typical supremacy attitude. I was laughing while she was grilling by her own idiot superiority ego. Now I said it is ok I will take any color.
She said wait and let me talk my manager and you know they talk as usual and I was making myself ready to answer her rejection. She said , sir you are required to have good credit , major credit. Now I said, are you asking me because I am Brown, I did not use black international. She exploaded and that was my target. And she also used " I see a person not a color" which is dismissive of my identity and typical way to hide on sand like an ostrich. I told her she is recist and gave her my cc with I'd, she started typing burnung. After she finished checking and left with no execuses , I told her I do not need her service and left her grilled.
Therefore, it is in every day life. Everywhere.
My message is " recism is real but it hurts the recist" especially if you expose and challenge the recist.
Let's all fight and expose recism left and right.
God bless me and give me the strength.
This is one of the most ignorant articles I have ever read regarding race.
1) “You’re racist for making this an issue of race.”
I live in NYC and face down racism from blacks, unprovoked. The word racist today is synonymous with white on black racism. The angriest people are younger black folks, who never faced won anything compared to their ancestors. Stop playing a victim.
2) “I don’t see race. I only see the human race.”
You utter fool. There is noting inherently racist about this. I am supposed to recognize what? That whites are racist and blacks are not? Go back to sleep.
3) “Talking about issues in terms of ‘white people’ and ‘white privilege’ is reverse racism.”
Affirmative action has disqualified more qualified whites--who scored higher test grades --so there can be a quota. This is not racist? Fool!!! What about judging the individual? Right, that only applies for a black person.
4) “You [person of color] clearly don’t know what racism is. According to Webster’s Dictionary...”
Well this makes no sense either.
5) “You [person of color] said something about white people doing racist things, so I demand you explain this to me right now.”
You invent things to become racist and live in a world where coded racism surrounds you. If I say its been a dark day metaphorically, you say I am systemically racist. If I make any reference to darkness in a metaphor--you say I am brainwashed. When God breathed into the darkness, He was apparently racist too? You are a complete fool!!
6) “But my [person of color] friend said it was OK if I did it [racially problematic thing].”
Does your friend give a pass when you crack jokes about whitey? You are never racist. You know why whites stereotype blacks? Because blacks comprise 13% of the population yest account for 90% of the prison population. Maybe if you stop glorifying gangster rappers, busting a cap in someone's ass, commit armed robbery, murder and commit acts of criminal violence--not to mention the knockout game--a black game invented to hurt whites.
Take responsibility--you have the same opportunities everyone has--but you fail to take advantage thinking you are always a victim. Grow up; really as a race--grow up.
7) “Stop attacking me for having privileges just because I’m white. It’s racist and hurtful.”
The fact is that the people with the least amount of rights is the white male. I'm not
talking about rich white people--I;m talking about the average white male citizen.
We have to get through all types of quotas to be treated equally in vying for a job.
White males are routinely bashed on TV. White males are the only group who is
not protected by a group of people. If you act like a thug, glorify the gang-banger lifestyle,
wear your pants like you're a prisoner (low)--expect to be stopped and frisked.
Its the track record, stupid. You are so FOS--and live in a black tunnel world.
8) “I’m sick of pretending that [people of color] need special rights and programs just because they aren't white. We have problems too, you know.”
How many more advantages do you need? You do not have to score as high on a test for a job as a white person does!! To me this is systemically racist. How is this equal that a white who gets a 90 on a test is equal to a black who gets 75? You all talk about oppression your forefathers suffered, but not you. You were born into a world where you never faced down any real racism. Shut up. You are making a fool out of yourself.
9) [Insert tear-filled expression of white privilege guilt or denial here.]
Boo hoo-- poor black of 2014 is so oppressed!! You hear how stupid you sound? You have had every door opened for you because of the color of your skin and when you fail to take advantage its somehow whitey's fault.
Summary:
You are an embarrassment--inn an abyss of stupidity and victim-hood status. Take individual responsibility for your lives and stop casting blame on people who were not even born when your forefathers and not you faced down real racism.
The only problem I have with this is that many of the 'general' population right now, with the greatest percentage of people being 18-34 did not grow up in a culture of racism. Generalizing is what brought about the problems in the first place. It is offensive when I ask someone to stop cursing at me and they call me a racist. It makes no sense that when I tell an 11 year old they have to do their homework I am called a racist. We are hiding behind a word that has become an excuse when really its not so much of a skin color but instead a battle of culture. I'm just not sure you represented both sides equally which negates your argument because it lacks unbiased perspective. Can we see races as cultures? Because that is the problem.
And yet we are all not the same and prejudice exist because of it. And white folks are the dominate around the world. I saw more discrimination in Europe with people that are black and born in Africa than i have ever saw in my life. This is not just in the states it is world wide. It it sucks and we all need to stand up and say this is not okay for anyone.
Look, Black people are not "African Americans," they're freakin AMERICANS, and you can call them black, because white people are WHITE. Us Asians? You can call us yellow but it doesn't sound right, so Asians it is. But damn, WE ARE ALL AMERICANS.
@Ed Fan
Awesome, finally something here that makes sense. There may be others this is the first one that I can recall. Thanks
I'm not really concerned with slavery. It was a dark time in our nation's history. There's no point to "reparations". As horrible as it was, it's in the past and there are no former, legal slaves or slave owners alive today. Modern racism is what concerns me. White privilege is a thing. Whether you're racist or not, if your skin is white, you do benefit from it. Blatant racism is also a thing, and far more common than most white people realize. Just try to be a little sensitive. Understand that cultural differences have arisen between whites & blacks, precisely BECAUSE blacks were so badly treated for so many years. Learn about white privilege. Find out why you can do things that a black man may very well be taking great risks in doing.
The United States was born out of a need for individual freedoms, yet at the same time, in an incredibly insensitive form of compromise, it denied these basic freedoms based upon the color of a person’s skin. How could such greatness have emerged including such an evil practice? It is difficult to understand. Yet, as I’ve studied history, and people in general, I’ve come to a belief that it is not proper, or just, to place our modern day understanding and enlightenment upon those who came before us; especially hundreds of years before us. It was a very different time.
Although, when assessing the history of our nation, I believe that it is critical to point out that the United States did NOT bring slavery to this continent, but it DID eventually end it.
No, our history is not perfect. And yes, we could spend all day focusing on where we have been, instead of how far we have come -- and where we are going. Through long fought conflicts on the battlefield, and in the legislature, we have finally come to a place where, at least on paper, all people are guaranteed those God given inalienable rights that were spoken of so long ago in the Declaration of Independence. America, in its simplest form, is a work in progress.
The government cannot end racism! I am sorry, but this is simply impossible! The only thing the government can, and must, do is ensure that every citizen has proper recourse when they are discriminated against for any reason. That’s it! It is not against the law, nor should it ever be, to hate someone for any reason. If you want to hate someone because of his or her skin color, be my guest. If you want to hate someone because of his or her financial status, go ahead. Maybe they stole your girlfriend or that million dollar idea you had. In some way or another, we all experience hate. Maybe you hate someone because their ancestors owned slaves. Should that hatred be eliminated by law as well? Absolutely not! One thing I have learned in life is that if you look hard enough at anyone for a reason to hate him or her, you will find it, regardless of skin color. Another thing is that you can’t legislate emotions.
Does “white privilege” exist? Absolutely. Does the playing field still need to be leveled? Obviously. Can a white person ever fully understand the systemic obstacles and double standards that people of color deal with every day. Of course not, and it’s unbelievingly insulting to think we ever could. We simply do not know what we do not know.
The best thing we can do today is to shut our mouths, listen to the experiences of others and see the truth that is all around us. Then, maybe, we will have the seeds of understanding necessary to push forward and plant a new society together.
One thing I can tell you for sure is this; if human beings are still alive and kicking 10,000 years from now, I doubt they will have this problem. By then, we will be one big blended “mocha” colored community… and much the happier for it.
I love it how certain groups/races feel like they're the ONLY ones to be treated poorly. Its not like Slavs were slaves for hundreds of years, or jews in captivity for thousands of years. I don't see too many groups asking the Romans (Italians) for special considerations (even though they enslaved half the known world at the time), I don't see Jews asking the Egyptians for reparations. What I see consistently is a group of people (not all) that demand some sort of retribution for a slight that didn't even occur to them personally but to their ancestors.
The next argument of course will sound something like 'YOU DON'T SEE IT WITH YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE". More than half of this country is filled with immigrants (some white some not) whose families arrived here long after emancipation. What do they owe you? What special treatment are they required to give you? What is unbelievably annoying is the inherent belief that the white man (I dont even know who that is any more considering lots of different cultures and races spawn white skin color) owes you something. Owes you some sort of acknowledgement that they have it easier then you.
I work with plenty of people of various races and religions. I treat them all like I feel they should be treated. If he's an asshole I'll treat him as such, if he's a nice guy I'll treat him accordingly. If these race baiters and I am specifically referring to the author of this worthless article and half of these annoying commentators stopped perpetuating this feeling of being owed something maybe people would stop looking at you like your in any way different.
That however wont happen since its far more fun to get up on that soap box and ask for pity. So have it - continue writing these worthless pieces about how people are appropriating this culture or that culture.
Quite frankly - most of the people who do perpetuate it, use it as a crutch to explain away their miserable failures and shortcomings.
You know the argument you thought people would come back with (the "you don't see it with your white privilege" one) is more relevant than you think. And don't you think since you've heard it so many times than there is some truth to it?
You don't see it because of your white privilege. We live in a world of patriarchy and white supremacy. And you're a white male. I bet you never even knew race was an issue until you had your first coloured friend. The ignorance with thinking that coloured people just want to complain for fun is the biggest part of the problem. You also stated how you treat everyone the same more on their personality than on their race. Well what do you want? A pat on the back? You're one of those white people who believe race isn't a problem in America just because you work with a black guy and you get on pretty well. And like I said before, you don't see it because of your white privilege. You were never made to grow up thinking you were less beautiful, less worthy or even LESS OF A HUMAN BEING because of the colour of your skin. It's easy for you to ignore the Mike Brown cases sitting on your green grass and then turn around like "what race problem?". You're dripping with ignorance.
What a way to waste 200 kilobytes. Can't you just shorten this shit show to - WAAA RACIST WAAAA?
@Zachariah Europeans were not stolen from their homeland, beaten, raped, murdered, stripped of their languages, heritage and culture. I am tired of the same broken record of excuses and tired tropes of 'I have black friends'. That does not give you a magic pass to feign ignorance when confronted with your privilege. If those people are actually your friends you should attempt to address and understand the issues you are complaining about. The vast majority of Europeans came here willingly and of their own volition. Do not dare to attempt to equate their struggle with African Americans/ Caribbeans/ South American . After a couple of generations those same Europeans have fit nicely into the inequality status quo, and if you're any indication have no trouble upholding said status quo. Go take a seat.
Actually Europeans were stolen from their homes, beaten, stripped of their heritage, and just about everything else that you've pointed out. The problem is the lack of actual historical knowledge people display concerning this issue. Are you aware that the Irish were being brought to the colonies as slaves at the same time the Africans were? And in greater proportion? And that's just one instance. Europeans have been enslaving each other since well before there was anything called Europe.
The vast majority of early immigration was also not as voluntary as one would think. War, famine, destitution, and other factors played a large role in moving the population along. White Europeans arriving after the Dutch and English were indeed just as downtrodden and mistreated as blacks were.
The Irish again had the worst of it. They first arrived at the new colonies as shave stock to be bred with African slaves. The second wave of major Irish immergration was spured by famine. When they arrived on these shores after fighting English land owners guns were placed in their hands to fight in the American civil war.
Please go ahead and Google everything I've just said. The information is readily available for anyone willing to put aside their bias and actually research the topic instead of just supporting a popular narrative. Next time learn what your talking about before correcting people or just shut up.
@Nuit Noire
Romans, Vikings, Did you know the word slave comes from Slav, which is a white ethnicity? Look I understand your upset, this stuff isn't easy to discuss, but you'll have to face it, this history isn't limited to skin color. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't assume I'm just coming up with excuses, because your right, there are no excuses. But facts are facts, people are people, history is history, today is what today is. What's tomorrow going to look like? I don't know, but I don't like my friend feeling pressured to conform any more than I do. And I can't stand the idea of our kids going through it either.
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