Why Men Don’t Understand Sexism In Partner Dancing

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confused-man-by-david-goehring-flickrSome of the male responses to my articles mentioning sexism perplex me.
These men outright deny that sexism exists, or that it’s a problem. I admit I have trouble understanding why anyone would take that stance.
I talked with my husband. He’s good at explaining what it’s like to be a man in partner dancing. He’s also non-white, so he has insight into the minority experience as well.
Together, we discovered some sticking points that make it harder for men to unravel the puzzle of sexism.
I failed to see these as sticking points because I experience life as a woman. To me, these are so foundational they don’t need to be said. That makes it more difficult for me to explain the sexism I experience in the dance community.
First, let’s define sexism as it relates to partner dancing.
Sexism is when men act subtly, overtly, or systematically to limit the choices of women.
Overtly: “You can’t do that because you’re a woman.”
Subtly: “It’s better for you to do this because you’re a woman.” Or, “It’s weird/uncomfortable/abnormal when women do that.”
Systematically: “This is what women do, because that’s how it works.” Or, “Men on this side, women on that side.”
Don’t think the above things are bad? Don’t think they are ingrained in partner dancing? Here are three things that may be limiting your appreciation of the burden of sexism on women:

1) Referring to men and women as their dance roles.

When trying to understand sexism, calling men and women leads and follows (respectively) adds a layer of obfuscation.
You give the men and women labels. Then you impose sexist structures on the labels. Therefore, you believe you are not being sexist because you’re applying the structures to labels and not real people. Saying, “Follows can only be creative within the structure the leads give,” is much more palatable than, “Women can only be creative within the structure men give.”
You can defend the first by saying, “That’s how the dance is defined.” But you know the second is just plain vulgar. You might protest that women can learn to lead if they like…
Point of information: The vast majority of dancers conform to the dance role that is expected of them. Women make up a higher percentage of doctors and engineers in the U.S. than leads in the lindy hop community. There is a greater percentage of male nurses than male follows.
Lead and follow roles in partner dancing come with more gender baggage than being a doctor, an engineer, or a nurse.
If sexism isn’t a huge problem, where are all the women who specialize in leading? Where are all the men who specialize in following? Why are gendered dance roles still taught and defended with fervor?
How are men and women going to choose anything else when choosing a dance role is like choosing a gender?
woman-doctor-by-department-for-international-development-flickr
When you are trying to undermine sexism, reduce the gender baggage associated with the roles. And acknowledge that anyone can dance any role they please.
But when trying to understand sexism in partner dancing, remember that the vast majority of follows are women in real life. The vast majority of leads are actually men. Don’t call us by our dance roles and use that to justify the status quo.
You could say, “We teach follows to be submissive.” But in real life, that plays out as: “We teach women to be submissive.” And, “We teach men to be in charge while dancing.” Yuck.

2) Inability to imagine what sexism feels like.

White people can hardly imagine regularly being followed by cops. We can’t imagine being denied housing based on the color of our skin. We absolutely can’t imagine having 10% of our brothers incarcerated.
In the same vein, I have trouble imagining a common fear men suffer from: Being perceived as weak. As a woman, I thought that fear was silly until I talked with men who experience it. Turns out it’s not so silly. It’s a limiting factor in the choices men feel they can make.
Want to know what sexism feels like in partner dancing? Imagine these things happening to you on a regular basis:
  • You’re expected to be submissive to your opposite-sex partner. What you wish to do is not as important as what your partner wants.
  • You’re taught that your creativity is entirely dependent on what your opposite-sex partner allows.
  • You get dirty looks from your opposite-sex partner when you’re experimenting with creativity.
  • Your opposite-sex partner does the same move over and over again until they can make you do it.
  • When your opposite-sex partner can’t get you to do what they want, they use more force. Often this is uncomfortable.
  • Some opposite-sex partners grasp your wrists or other body parts to get more control.
  • You don’t get asked to dance again when your opposite-sex partner can’t get you to do what they want.
  • Your opposite-sex partner dips you uncomfortably or dangerously and expects you to enjoy it.
  • Your opposite-sex partners use mistakes as condescending teaching moments (even when you’ve been dancing for a decade).
  • You receive significantly less attention in classes, which are mostly taught by the opposite sex.
  • Above all, you are criticized and/or belittled by the opposite sex for pushing back against gender disparities such as the above.
If you can imagine these things, then you can imagine what it feels like to be a woman in partner dancing. Though some women manage to avoid the worst aspects, I hear complaints like these over and over again.
And that’s not even getting into all the ways women are expected to conform to gender expectations in partner dancing (skirts, sexy movement, always saying “yes,” etc).
These are examples of how men limit women’s choices. Men expect to control the structure of the dance. Whether from a misguided sense of benevolence (“so my partner can let go”) or out of a need for dominance, it has the same effect. In partner dancing, men are taught to control women.
That’s called sexism.

3) Defensiveness against impending change.

Defensiveness is one reaction to the perception of being attacked, which is how some men feel the moment they hear the word “sexism.” Defending your position is fine if you use logic and facts. On the other hand, defensiveness conveys an anxiety to avoid blame at all costs.
I understand that men feel blamed for sexism. I’d like to suggest that there are other ways of dealing with your feelings besides defensiveness. Defensiveness is ineffective.
For example, some retorts I’ve heard from men who feel defensive about sexism in partner dancing:
“That’s how partner dancing works.”
This is poor logic for at least two reasons:
A) Even the most rock-star-ish lead on the planet has not swung out as many times in the follow role as I have (or any follow of a few years experience). As actual follows, we have more authority to define our role than any lead.
B) Moreover, everything changes over time, often profoundly. Men commonly argued against women’s suffrage by saying women already had a voice in politics. It was thought that “her ability to reform society would be impaired.”
The anti-suffragists were wrong. Politics have only been improved as women have gained more control over their role, and what that role means.
Luckily, women don’t need to start over learning the lead role in order to be equals to men. Women can choose to participate equally in whichever role they like.
“If you don’t like it, get out.”
This is not appropriate. I finally have the experience, confidence, social standing, and investment in the dance community to challenge sexism. You know I’m not leaving. “Get out,” is akin to saying, “Shut up and deal with it.”
Not the most respectable response, is it?
angry-kid-graeme-mclean-flickr
“Being called sexist pisses me off.”
“Sexist” is not an insult. It’s not a personal attack. “Sexist” is a descriptor of a thing you do, not who you are. Doing sexist things doesn’t make you a bad person. It means you have room for improvement. Join the club! There are approximately 7 billion members already.
Men who do not wish to be called sexist can stop doing and saying sexist things, bit by bit. As a result, they’ll enjoy greater respect and empathy for themselves, and a better relationship with women.

Conclusion

More and more women are tired of being dance props, tired of being “protected,” tired of playing second fiddle, tired of being expected to please men. We want equal opportunity to dance our chosen roles in a way that works for us. We want freedom from the oppression of gender expectations.
Equal-opportunity connection is one way of getting there. You can download a whole course on treating your partner as an equal and improving your dance conversational skills.
If you don’t like it, you could get out. But you could also just keep dancing the same way you always have. So long as you don’t argue (either subtly or overtly) that others should conform to sexist expectations, I respect your role in the community.
P.S. I’m not exactly sure why some women deny sexism. But this article on Harvard Business Review has an important clue.
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  • Avatar
    Abigail Browning a year ago
    Brilliant. Concise. Excellent.
    Next up---sexism in judging and competition scoring?
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      Sarah a year ago
      I hope that men reading this article are able to hear you. It was certainly very jarring for me when I began actually listening to the experiences of people who were not white, straight-passing, and cis (as I am). But the lived experiences of oppressed groups must be listened to, so I appreciate the way you've clearly articulated to men what the lived experiences of many women in the dance community are.
      On a related note, removing gender-based baggage from Lindy Hop isn't solely about women, but also intersects with homophobia. For example, a tumblr post about Gio and Andreas's Pro Am at ILHC was mostly met with positivity, but there were also a few homophobic comments.
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        Joseph a year ago
        I appreciate the care you have taken to write such a broad article on the expression of sexism in the dance community. I'm trying to help our local community shake some of these habits and am relying on your perspective (among others) to encourage those efforts.
        I'm trying to think of ways to motivate behavioral changes. When trying to incite a change, I find it useful to understand where the original behavior came from. In your article, you indicate that "Men expect to control the structure of the dance." (Stepping away from the implication that men are a homogenous group with identical opinions.) You give two reasons for this; the first making men out as stupid and the second making men either villainous or socially maladapted. Though these can explain some cases, I feel like there must be other options given the generally not-stupid and not-mal-adapted group I see coming out dancing. Can you think of other explanations that more benign in origin, despite yielding the same negative consequences? If the *only* explanations we can offer for an existing negative behavior are "you're dumb" or "you're socially maladapted," then there is a lot of personal blame and guilt involved...issues that are hard to work through in the course of a few hours of dance lessons.
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            Rebecca Brightly > Joseph a year ago
            Hey I appreciate your response! I've specifically heard men use the reason of being either (a) the protector/giver, or (b) afraid of losing control. My phrasing in the post is certainly female-centric; perhaps this is better?
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                Joseph > Rebecca Brightly a year ago
                Though the rephrasing is less aggressively blame-oriented, the root question I was pondering is more like "Are there any other options?" I have felt the idea of "protector" while leading, but from the perspective of "watching out for other couples" and I hope my partner does the same for me. Not the "minute by minute must provide" connotation I feel here.
                So I've been trying to find another explanation for the observed behavior (not that I don't think it should change, but just trying to find an origin that isn't "boys are so dumb"). A while back I had a friend who went to Europe with is wife. After they got back, I heard his wife telling a story about how they went to a beach...which being the Mediterranean was topless. His wife was not bothered, but she was very amused at her husband's comment that he was "unsure where it was safe to look." She said many negative things about him in this context, like "Jeeze, they're just boobs, half the world has them." Though her statement is true, I can empathize with her husband. He had been taught for 40+ years that he should only being seeing his wife's boobs naked. He was confronted with a situation which his social scripts told him was wrong and couldn't provide a simple resolution. His response didn't deserve derision. I can only think of one or two dance classes that talked explicitly about the idea of an equal opportunity connection. That is a bad thing and needs to change. But, it provides an explanation for why leads might think that as if their role is to be active to a passive following counterpart. Furthermore, because this is an implicit lesson, there is a low ability to articulate the "why" of their own behaviors and probably even resist changes. I have danced with many beginner follows that responded very positively to what I consider an overly pedantic leading. Our beginning leaders are learning with and from those same followers. Though some leads probably have a latent desire to protect and some probably have a latent "need" to dominate, most are probably just doing what they've learned without really reflecting. Would you say that all follows either "need" to be dominated or have a misguided sense of vulnerability when they act passively? If the problem lies in implicit cultural education we absorb, then there is a real need for supportive education to change both sides of the relationship. Leads legitimately need to relearn and unlearn some things, but not because they are stupid or socially maladapted, in fact their intelligence and social adaptation help them learn the lessons that they are acting out.
                To sum up, I would add to your list:
                (a) acting out the social roles they've learned without critical reflection, (b) the protector/giver, or (c) afraid of losing control. The first probably reenforces the other two when present, but may be sufficient explanation in its own right in many cases. Furthermore, the first is something that we, as community members, can actually work with, while the other two are probably are better left to professional counselors (especially the third).
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                    Rebecca Brightly > Joseph a year ago
                    If we must pay someone to talk about what scares us, perhaps our community is in more trouble than I thought!
                    "Acting out the social roles they’ve learned without critical reflection" is a step removed from what is needed to inspire change. People aren't motivated merely by intellectual analysis. They must connect emotionally with the problem and the goal. It's too easy to believe you've done enough "critical reflection" when you haven't. This is evidenced by the many intellectual defenses of sexism you can see in previous posts. Those defensive responses have fear dripping from their every word, cloaked in anger, sophisticated language, and cheap shots at me personally.
                    When I've heard men reflect more deeply, it always comes back to these fears and anxieties over their role in society. I phrased it the way I did not to call men dumb, but to make them realize those expectations are dumb. No one should be expected to have control all the time (or even most of the time), and no one should be expected to protect a whole gender (or a whole dance role). I do think that intellectualizing the issue without acknowledging the anxiety and fears men have is... less productive, at best. Emotions are harder to deal with, but ultimately essential.
                    Here's an example for me: I was afraid of being called a bitch. For a long time, that fear made me deal with a lot of inappropriate behavior I shouldn't have. When I finally realized what I was afraid of, I didn't feel stupid. Instead it made me realize how stupid other people are. Why on Earth should I care if I'm called a bitch? Why should I care what those people think?
                    Society puts a lot of unfair pressures on men. Parting from those expectations takes a lot of courage. If you're not going to acknowledge the fears standing in your way, it's going to take a lot longer to conquer them.
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                  Mary a year ago
                  Ugh, this article is so perfect. So, so perfect. I'm in the process of starting a swing dance club at my university, and I'm going to try my damndest to kick sexism's ass. There's only so much I can do as a young, non-leadership member of my local dance community, but as a founder, teacher, and leader of this new club, I'm hoping that I can really make a difference.
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                      Zachary Malone a year ago
                      I am sad that this is the prevailing image that so many, or in fact any, women have of the dance relationship. It is irresponsible for anyone to subjugate others in such a communal and seemingly free/open activity.
                      I do want to ask, given the stance and flow of your article what are ways that would begin to resolve such grievances? There is a large amount of definition of the problem, yet I am at a loss as to how we as dancers should move forward.
                      It would most likely be a boon to both sides of this issue if the discussion evolved into how we can create a better society, as a mere focus on definition usually leads to further fighting and divide between the parties involved.
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                          Rebecca Brightly > Zachary Malone a year ago
                          Good question. I think acknowledging the problem is really, really helpful. And it's really easy. I get super excited when a dude posts an article about sexism on Facebook. Or when someone says, "Hey that thing you said was kind of sexist." Or even, "It really sucks you have to deal with that." For me, it's like, 'Wow! We get to talk about this now? What a relief!'
                          I know there are lots of more specific things, but frankly I'm impressed and hopeful by the mere fact this comment section hasn't turned into a cage match already. It really, really helps. "Okay, I hear you. What now?" is such an empowering thing for me to hear. Thank you.
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                              phoenix > Zachary Malone a year ago
                              haha, that is a more concise and readable version of my massive post. At least on one of the points I have. I guess my point is that with the definitions of this article, I could still be considered to be acting sexist/furthering sexism, despite my best efforts and an ingrained desire to promote gender-neutrality/gender equality. I simply cant imagine what can be done to fix the problem if it simply exists no matter what I do.
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                                Parvic a year ago
                                Your definition: Sexism is when men act subtly, overtly, or systematically to limit the choices of women.
                                So therefore I guess racism is defined when white men....
                                You're an idiot.
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                                    Mary > Parvic a year ago
                                    How is she an idiot? If we're comparing the two, her definition still holds up. "Racism is when one race subtly, overtly, or systematically limits the choices of another race."
                                    That's only part of racism, and "one race" usually does mean white people as white people are usually the ones to establish systems of racism (see segregation and apartheid), but essentially that holds up as being true.
                                    And regardless, this post is talking about sexism and her statement is absolutely true regarding the experiences of women in the dance community.
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                                        Bandm > Parvic a year ago
                                        How about actually telling us what is wrong instead of implying that “Racism is when one race subtly, overtly, or systematically limits the choices of another race” is not true, because that seems like a big part of racism to me.
                                        Calling someone an idiot while not actually articulating your problem doesn't help them understand anything, merely puts them on the defensive. It also doesn't make anyone listen to you.
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                                            Rebecca Brightly > Parvic a year ago
                                            It's worth noting that personal attacks are definitely in violation of the comment policy. I keep hoping people will train themselves; perhaps I should link to it more prominently.
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                                                Gabriel > Parvic a year ago
                                                Wow.. way to loose track of the argumentation. You should have finished your real line of thought instead of starting with the insults.
                                                With that said, yes the wording is incorrect. Sexism is NOT defined as the subtle overt or systematic actions to limit the choices of WOMEN. I will accept the limiting of choices part for the sake of it but sexism can be conducted against anyone based on their GENDER, not only women.
                                                With that said, sexism is most certainly more aimed at women and in this post it is this part of sexism that is discussed so I can see why this definition is used.
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                                                  phoenix a year ago
                                                  Ok, I'm slightly confused on this and I would like to understand. (long comment incoming)
                                                  to explain my perspective:
                                                  I am a gay, cis, male dancer (I say dancer because do both, though my affinity, talent and skill lies more on the side of being a follow). Some things you say, I can understand, as I tend to come from a feminist perspective, and I've spent a good deal of my college focus in courses revolving around gender, sexuality, feminism, and women studies. I compete both as a lead (Int)and a follow (when allowed) with comfortable success in each and still progressing (my highest follow achievement so far is placing 4th in an open-level strictly of ~30 couples, Champs included, but with the limitation that two champs couldnt dance together). I social dance frequently in both roles.
                                                  OK, so primarily, I'm having trouble shedding the "but that's the way the dance is structured" argument. In my mind, there is the lead role, and the follow role. To me, gender doesn't matter who fills the role, but the role exists regardless. (I know this may be different between my theory, and actual practice in the real world). I teach my classes as lead-follow, not men-women (but generally everyone automatically divides themselves according to "tradition" regardless of whether I tell them what tradition is or not). To me, the lead role is a structure: lets say, "waterslide". The follow is the water. The leads job is to guide the water (the water has plenty of space to "flow" wherever they want within the given structure of the waterslide). What's not allowed, however, is for the water to simply up-and-jump clean out of the waterslide. though its CAN run up the edges a little and influence the waterslide to reformat the structure it provides and chart a new path.
                                                  That's what the upper levels of this dance are to me, back and forth conversation, but with emphasis on lead being the structure (an inherently dominant role), and the follow meandering about that structure, but "limited" to the space allotted by the structure. (If someone asked you what your favorite movie was, it would be inappropriate and unproductive to answer with your favorite food).
                                                  I hope you follow so far. Here's where we tie in and i get a bit confused: You speak of Lead/Follow roles, if I am interpreting correctly, that they are inherently gendered and sexist. that is, lead == male, follow == female, and thus even referring to the roles in relation to dominance/submission, active/passive, etc... is equivalent to using gender in relation to those things? As in, I am still enforcing sexism when referring to roles, not genders? I'm having trouble grasping that part.
                                                  as noted in your bullet points, regarding follow experiences (and I feel I have the clout to respond to this on an equal grounding, as I am truly a follow at heart and in practice, regardless of how society limits that effort):
                                                  "You’re taught that your creativity is entirely dependent on what your opposite-sex partner allows." This statement and some others, I have trouble resonating with as a follow. I can almost see how it is demeaning (esp. with the connotation that "opposite sex" ie. MAN), but at the same time (sans "opposite-sex"), that is somewhat truthful
                                                  statement in my eyes. A follow's creativity IS dependent on what the partnership allows. I can be as creative as my imagination will let me be, but I have to do it within the structure that my partner has laid out for me. If I break that structure, or stress it too far, the dance simply won't work. The communication won't be there.
                                                  I can absolutely be active as a follow, and influential to to the dance, and express my creativity, but I can't do it in a way that inhibits my lead from maintaining his job as the structure. I can syncopate, I can style, I can accelerate/decelerate patterns do height changes, but it still needs to conform with the lead's general idea so at the very least they can react to it. Let me change gears, I'm about to fall into a rant about "influencing a pattern/dance vs hijacking".
                                                  Many of your other bullet points are spot on, but they apply to same-sex partnerships as well. It's the turbulent dynamic of lead-follow. they try to lead, you try to follow, if you don't quite follow it, the may try it again, and possibly more forcefully. Is the issue there a power/privilege dynamic that is invisible to me since I am male? is it simply the credentials of the partnership that makes it an issue? ie, when a man does it to a woman, it's sexist, but when a man does it to another man it is not, because of the power imbalance that is currently perceived in the sexes?
                                                  my post is running very long at this point, and i definitely dont mean any offense if i've created any. I'm simply trying to understand, because as I can interpret it from your explanation, there is no escape or solution to the sexism. It is simply inherent and there, and can't be taken away. I guess that is what I have the most confusion with. My perspective is having trouble perceiving many of the issues as being sexist, because I ship gender-neutrality to the highest degree, but apparently the roles themselves are sexist? i hope some degree of my madness made some sort of sense :)
                                                  Phoenix Grey
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                                                      phoenix > phoenix a year ago
                                                      aaaaaaaand look at what randomly commenting on a blog gets me into :P I just noticed this is a Lindy blog (I'm a WCS dancer), but the information is at the generality that it applies to most dances. Also gonna take the time to read a few other articles, like the equal opportunity connection one. might clear up a few details for me.
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                                                          Bandm > phoenix a year ago
                                                          Perhaps it is different in different scenes? Where I am, some of the scene leaders are pretty strongly against women performing as leads, and some male scene leaders won't dance with male follows, or not dancing in the same way, or not taking it seriously. And then in some classes women leading is kinda ok, but men following is not.
                                                          There is also the issue that for all of the Beginner and Intermediate and some Advanced classes, there is a strong emphasis on the follows just following. No instruction on that, no encouragement to play with it, no room for the follows to participate fully, they are restricted to being something the lead moves around the dancefloor with no autonomy, often with limited in class feedback for the follows.
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                                                              phoenix > Bandm a year ago
                                                              could be. Discrimination on gender is BS.
                                                              In my scene (Portland), we are pretty lucky. MOST of the instructors (West coast swing, BTW) here actively try to shift to lead-follow terminology (some need some time getting used to it, from their long years of always saying man/woman). none that i know would be caught dead telling a student that they CAN'T be a male follow or female lead. there is an aura around here that still guides you to conforming to gender roles, but if you dont, you wont be killed, and wont be called out or embarrassed on it (beyond what is expected when people try to get used to new ideas).
                                                              If i were to emphasize one followers "just following" then its because I want the leads to feel the baseline and figure out how to lead it themselves rather than have it done for them. if a follow has the skill to modify and style without interrupting that baseline flow for the lead, have at it :)
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                                                                Rebecca Brightly > phoenix a year ago
                                                                Hey Phoenix. The roles were originally based on submissive-dominant gender stereotypes. Perhaps hundreds of years ago, a woman could not dance without a man leading her around. Today, two people dancing together do not require hierarchy. But these outdated expectations are still enforced on the majority of dancers. Hence, 99%+ of follows are women, who are then taught to be submissive in the dance. And 99%+ of leads are men, who are taught to be dominant in the dance.
                                                                Even if you could somehow make everyone learn both roles, those roles would still be based on gender stereotypes and thus marginalize the needs of many dancers. In today's world, people express gender in such a huge variety of ways. The way we teach beginners dance communication is far, far behind the times. I can go from being dominant to passive in just 3 minutes without changing roles, as in any other conversation. How feminine am I? How masculine am I? Who cares? It's just a conversation, and the people I dance with seem to be able to handle it just fine.
                                                                I have a really crazy analogy. Today we design robots that look like humans. Suppose one day we evolve to look very, very different. But in this imagined future, our robots are still made to look like the humans of 2013. One could fairly suggest we re-design our robots to look more like our evolved selves.
                                                                This analogy isn't perfect. But it's incredibly clear that times have really changed since partner dancing caught on in those old European ballrooms.
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                                                                    phoenix > Rebecca Brightly a year ago
                                                                    I sorta get what you're saying, but I'm still having hiccups.
                                                                    I do see what you mean with the status quo being a VAST majority of dancers confirm to traditional gender roles, but I don't see that as justification to assert lead/follow at it's essence to be sexist in contemporary times. even though the roles may have originally been influenced by ancient gender roles, i would see the sexism in modern day to be when genders are assigned to the roles, not the roles themselves.
                                                                    I'll take a crack at a baseball analogy (fair warning, i know next to nothing about baseball): 2 teams, one is at bat, one is in the field. each has the same ultimate goal: a good game. (yes, obviously each side wants to win, but that falls a bit out of the analogy).
                                                                    Team A is in the field, and is expected to do "in-the-field" things. Team B is is expected to do "at bat" things. Team B players cant hit the ball if team A never throws the ball. Team A cant throw the ball around and get players on Team B "out" without Team B playing along and doing their part. when the ball is thrown, Team B tries to hit the ball, succeeds or fails, the game continues.
                                                                    the important thing here, is that each side has to do their defined part for the game to work, for it to progress, for the game as a whole to succeed.
                                                                    I guess what i mean to say, is that one side kinda has take the dominant role, one has to take the submissive role. if both dancers are dominant, they fight each other and you get nasty looks from both sides. if both are passive, you both end up waiting around for nothing to happen. I guess it's just that I consider leading to be an inherently dominant "act". You have the first call on decisions. following is more reactive (which I would consider to be a more submissive act). from there, you can elaborate on the leads design. but the pitcher has the throw the ball for the whole game to start.
                                                                    I also agree that you can swap activity levels in the dance. If i have a playful follow (when I'm leading), I relax things up, essentially making my waterslide wider, and giving them more room to be creative, but i still dont entirely give up my "dominance". I'm still laying down the tracks, as broad as they may be. perhaps its just an argument of dominant/submissive vs Active/passive actions.
                                                                    I know as a follow, when i unleash my particularly spectacular ideas, I am painstakingly aware of how much control i take away from the lead. If I take all control, all the time as a follow, leading becomes a drag. They might as well be a stationary pole and let me do my work.
                                                                    ... you know what? i think i'm starting to get what you mean. slightly. From a lead perspective, it's no fun when a follow chooses not to follow and gets carried away with the creative. If I have nothing to do with making those neat patterns happen, it's a wash. That follow can dance by themself, I'll wait at the juice bar till they're ready to dance WITH me. from a follow perspective, a lead that pipelines me (waterslide is so narrow i have nowhere to go but EXACTLY where they want) is a bit less than desired. I have no space to express myself in the dance. Team A just rigged the game from the first pitch.
                                                                    but now i just realized another thing: I'm talking lead-follow dynamics. and gender hasnt even crossed my mind in those dynamics. I think I'm back to square one again...
                                                                    maybe it's that in my mind, I am living in a slightly more perfect world where the roles are simply roles, without gender connotation. at least, that's the world i would like to see. dominant and submissive, active and passive doesnt mean anything in relation, because i dont see them as having gendered meanings. I know that dominance and active is SEEN as masculine by the current population, but i see them as adjectives. I dont see sexism in saying that leading is a dominant role/job. i see sexism in saying leading is a man's role. that dominance is a man's trait.
                                                                    I'm so sorry if i'm being confusing. my brain is running for a loop right now.
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                                                                        phoenix > Rebecca Brightly a year ago
                                                                        I guess, the root of it, in regards to your robot analogy, is that my perspective of what dance is, is in pace with modern times. I dont think the robot needs further change, the way people look at the robot does. My idea of dance is gender inclusive, and role based. I dont care where the role came from, or what it's original connotations were; it was an elegant solution: someone leads, someone follows. and in that respect, it works. what needs to change is the idea that leading can only be achieved properly by XY, and following by XX. whoever has the mindset for what the job entails, picks up the job and does the work.
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                                                                            Rebecca Brightly > phoenix a year ago
                                                                            I think the dance hierarchy and gender stereotypes happen to fit some people really well. Those people probably don't feel the pressure I feel. But it directly affects me. Men expect me to be submissive when I'm dancing. They think they control me (not possible; I move my own body). They get irritated if I make changes or have ideas they don't know how to respond to.
                                                                            The solution for men is pretty simple. Treat your partner as an equal. Learn to be responsive. (And for women, learning to take initiative.)
                                                                            Also--remember that when you say lead and follow, in reality that means men and women. We are actually people, not idealized dance roles. There is no way to cleanly separate the roles from the people who dance them.
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                                                                                phoenix > Rebecca Brightly a year ago
                                                                                I'm sorry for your experiences, rebecca. I guess this is a situation where i simply cannot have the same experience as you, as our upbringings and experiences in regard to our sex give us a completely different perspective.
                                                                                I think we are somewhat on the same page in regards to initiative and responsivity, except I see those as contemporary features of dance (my style of dance, at least). All of the best follows take on an "alpha" personality and influence the dance from their end, the leads become responsive to those changes. In my experience, that already happens. Thats what the upper level of dance is; very two-way communicative. the beginners have to adhere more firmly to what is apparently sexist outlines, simply on the basis of the need to make the dance work. when both parties knwo what theire doing, the playing field becomes far more even. I consider it to be a n issue of skill and comfort with a dance, not an inherent battle of the sexes. as soon as a follow knows how to create style and be creative in a way that doesnt inturrupt the flow of the lea'd half of the dance, all is good, and i would never dream of belittling a follow for being creative.
                                                                                I do have to disagree that lead and follow actually means men and women. perhaps that's the popular opinion, but I dont think t is an absolute truth. I consider Lead and follow to mean men OR women (or anyone who lies anywhere on or off the gender spectrum). Leading is TRADITIONALLY a mans role, but today, it doesnt have to me. strength, dominance, power are TRADITIONALLY male traits, but we are slowly learning that they dont have to be. it isnt men and women behind the role, it's people behind the role.
                                                                                I know my idealized view isnt the status quo, but I make sure it is the status quo in areas where i have enough influence to make it so. it may be small-scale, but I, personally, can easily and cleanly separate gender from the roles. the trick is to get everyone else to do it too.
                                                                                I'm sorry to be a nuisance on your blog, I'll shut up if you like.
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                                                                                  Natasha > Rebecca Brightly a year ago
                                                                                  Dear Rebecca, I am greatly inspired by your writing, and have a concrete question for you (and others?): When one teaches beginner's levels of dance, WHEN is the right time to show them they can exchange leading and following? I am not referring to a whole dance being exchanged permanently, more of a dialogue of swaps.
                                                                                  I find this to be the key question that would deserve a lot of attention and would actually change our perception A LOT, even if we would never point out the debate on sexism. The whole flow of dance, and our roles, would change.
                                                                                  But I am clueless how to get there. I was taught that lead and follow are un-interchangeable, so I would need a lot of know-how and courage to step into new territory.
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                                                                                      Rebecca Brightly > Natasha a year ago
                                                                                      Hey thanks! The answer to your question depends on a lot of things. But mostly, I think it depends on your confidence as a teacher. Meaning, (a) are you proficient in the skills you want to teach? And (b) are you confident you can teach the concepts clearly?
                                                                                      If a teacher is lacking confidence with either, then it's better to test out the concept on intermediate+ dancers. If the teacher is confident in both, then they should be able to easily teach beginners any skill.
                                                                                      The role of a teacher isn't to make sure students never fail or always have an easy time learning. The role of the teacher is to facilitate the students' natural learning process; to give students just enough information to see the big picture and some of the steps along the way. Students want to figure things out for themselves.
                                                                                      All this is to say, I think we do a little too much hand-holding in partner dancing. We need to push the baby birds out of the nest more often. :-)
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                                                                                          Rebecca Brightly > Natasha a year ago
                                                                                          By the way, you can download a course I wrote about learning initiating and responding skills. It explains (in clear language, I hope) the exact concept I'm trying to get across: http://rebeccabrightly.com/onl... (Equal-Opportunity Connection)
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                                                                                          Jason Baggett > phoenix a year ago
                                                                                          To be fair, I've seen the EOC principles Rebecca describes practiced WAY more in WCS than in Lindy Hop. (Though they may not call it that.)
                                                                                          That may be why it's so difficult for you to grasp what Rebecca is getting at.
                                                                                          Also, you've expressed a belief that each individual in the partner ship must be EITHER submissive or dominant, usually aligning with the traditions of their choosen role. And that the dance doesn't work if both partners are dominant or both are submissive. I agree, but I'd offer the suggestion that those aren't the only options. I'd advocate each partner aim more for cooperative, not dominant or submissive. Both partners can be cooperative in their choosen lead/follow roles, which leaves room for each to both initiate and respond. Again, I see this practiced more in WCS than Lindy Hop. Maybe the reason you don't see the same problem is because the WCS world already rewards and encourages the behavior Rebbecca is advocating. (Though again, I doubt they think of it quite the same way. The results are quite clear though. Just watch thru the most recent champ j&j for both if you disagree.)
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                                                                                              Michel > phoenix a year ago
                                                                                              I like the way you are getting about this issue. One thing I think is that 'dominance' could be better expressed as 'initiating' and 'submissive' as 'reactive'. These terms for me describe the roles better and have a lesser '*ism' connotation. A lead initiates some moves and a follow reacts to that. More like call-response then dominance.
                                                                                              Sometimes(?) more beauty/satisfaction comes from a nice reaction then from a proper 'following' action. I have seen some demonstration from a couple (Andrew and Sandrine) to show just that. The lead initiates a move and the follow picks up on it and gives it more momentum or whatever (like a totally unexpected response) to spice it up.
                                                                                              The hard part is of course to still make it a partner dance and not a show off on what you can do.
                                                                                              ( I just read the musicality post and was a bit confused about what would constitute sexism and what was SPECIFICALLY meant by it, like the post described the fuzz about what musicality is.)
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                                                                                                functor7 > Rebecca Brightly a year ago
                                                                                                What about the female follows that follow everything extremely well but contribute absolutely nothing to the dance? Pure vanilla. When I dance with them, I am automatically expected to be in a domination mode. This attitude certainly does not help fix the issue of sexism in Lindy, is more prevalent that you'd think and has received no comment from the Gender-Equality Lindy troupe.
                                                                                                You want to dance with people that you can communicate with, but you feel like you're constantly expected to be submissive? I get it! I want to dance with people the will communicate with me, but I feel like I'm constantly being expected to be dominating!
                                                                                                Most girls I talk to are happy with the submissive role and when I suggest they try and add something here and there, they say "You expect me to do some thinking? I'm just along for the ride!" Both men and women are guilty of the spread of gender inequality, and both men and women do not recognize sexism when they see it. Not all men are not guilty. Not all women are not innocent.
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                                                                                                    Rebecca Brightly > functor7 a year ago
                                                                                                    "I want to dance with people the will communicate with me, but I feel like I’m constantly being expected to be dominating!" I totally know what you mean! It's part of the reason I don't dance the lead role that often. I'm not feeling those black-and-white expectations. Relationships are much more nuanced than that.
                                                                                                    I do think it's an overly-high burden for leads. It's incredibly unhelpful if you partner pins the success of the dance on you (because conversely, they will blame failures on you as well). My big idea is treating your partner like an equal and taking responsibility for your own movement and enjoyment. If your partner's not on the same page in this regard, oh well. Can't mesh with everyone. Hopefully you can find another partner who shares your values.
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                                                                                                        Fred Ramos > Rebecca Brightly a year ago
                                                                                                        Trading roles as dominate or submissive merely means that the follower (woman) is allowed to dominate occasionally (infrequently). This is certainly not what you're seeking. By removing the language (sexism, racism, whateverism) perhaps you'll see what's hidden from you by your self imposed blinders. The lead can create situations that encourage / allow / permit the follower to improvise. The problem I find (especially among Lindy Hoppers) with most dancers is that they preform routines and don't really lead or follow. As one musician stated in a discussion regarding the difficulties with playing for (or dancing with) Lindy Hoppers is "They just don't get the improvisational nature of Jazz". They generally prefer records over live music. Many excellent musicians that over the years that have played for Lindy Hoppers have all expressed surprise at the ridiculous and generally ignorant requests made to them. Seems to me that followers that are in just for the ride, just don't get it either. Perhaps that's because they have learned that it's too painful otherwise, but they also don't wish to lead because they don't feel they can lead a "follower" that doesn't follow and doesn't know the "leader's" routine. Since neither actually leads or follows they're stuck simply preforming routines they've learned, which generally means the follower (women) must do their best to follow a leader that's not leading, hence the painful hand holds. Occasionally some guy will have a routine that's relatively straight forward which the women can anticipate and mimic, and he's branded as a good leader even though he's not actually leading. Any great musician well tell you that technically proficient musicians that don't get it are no fun (and pointless) to play (jam) with. So instead of seeing sexism as the problem you should see the failure of learning to lead and follow as the problem. Sexism is only the symptom not the underlying problem. Most men (leaders) will deny they're sexist because their heart is good and will reject a label that's loaded with negativity. Perhaps they'll concede the results but look for an explanation that doesn't brand them. By reaching outside your experience as a dancer and seeing that which all great Jazz musicians know you'll realize that to see one dimension there must be two. I don't feel any pressure as a leader because I've learned to follow (read) the follower. Most of my energy as a leader is spent following which allows me the bring out the follower's unique style. Having thus liberated the follower (and more importantly I've liberated myself) from my domination then I can engage them in a real two way conversation. Mind you I rarely dance as the follower as I don't feel that adds anything to the conversation. Being dominated by a woman that's "leading" is not something I'm interested in. Dancing with a women that have something to say and not something to prove is certainly a more enjoyable conversation. So, yes there's sexism (and many other 'isms) in Dance (and life) but that's not the problem, the problem is that there's not enough dancing (improvising = leading + following) in dancing. Running through routines is merely athletics (a workout) not dancing. I'll suggest that revisiting the initial article from the point of view of a jazz musician that's accustomed to improvising and you'll see that sexism is not the problem, it's just the symptom.
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                                                                                                    Sid Hetzler a year ago
                                                                                                    Rebecca,
                                                                                                    Some great ideas here that very much interest me as I attempt to discover more about the old, very old, pre-1800 ways partners dancer the waltz and turning dances in Austria and especially Vienna, where the fast, close (apparently) new turning dance forced a togetherness that did not allow much time for what we now think of as lead/follow mode. My article/book about this is called "In Search of the Lost Art of Waltzing." You might know a waltz/dance teacher friend of mine there in Seattle, Zach Cassady, who is exploring similar ideas, especially no lead/no follow dancing and making some progress I believe. One of his partners, and fellow teacher, is Linda Townsend and she's also curious about the same issues. Keep it up! Regards, Sid
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                                                                                                        Sid Hetzler a year ago
                                                                                                        Also, I forgot to mention a new book that touches on the same issues in equality, fairness and sexism, Stanford dance historian and dance guru Professor Richard Powers' "Waltzing: A Manual for Dancing and Living." It's on Amazon. He and I produced waltz weekend at my NW GA movement studio/ballroom and farm for about ten years, until the studio and home burned in 2007.
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                                                                                                            Randall a year ago
                                                                                                            These situations go far beyond dancing. There are no rules and the roles of men and women are truly liquid right now. Open the door for one, she appreciates it, the next resents it. Lead in the traditional way, and get dance partners. Often a new partner will not even try to follow, or is not able to follow, so the lead takes it down a little, and your partner resents it. Life is an ever changing collision of new and old behaviors. The only solution I know is to be kind and supportive and hope for similar treatment.
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                                                                                                                Stuart a year ago
                                                                                                                Hi there,
                                                                                                                I think Rebecca, Randall and Phoenix have some great points and as far as this dance goes I can see some areas that I wholeheartedly agree with and some that I take issue with, but ultimately I have to agree with Randall's comment - As far as I see it this is not about dancing, this is about sexism (and all sorts of other discrimination). Defining someone by what they do is the key, not what they are - If a male lead is 'crappy' to somebody and gets 'forceful/annoyed/disrespectful' then what they are is crappy to somebody and 'forceful/annoyed/disrespectful'. The same for a female lead who does the same things - the same for a person who acts that way in any instance in life.
                                                                                                                I'm not saying don't voice your opinion or even that it isn't correct, but what I think is paramount is to talk about how to improve a situation rather than pull it down. Yes, it's not ideal to refer to people as their dance role but 'lead' and 'follow' are *NOT* genders even if they are percieved as such. I agree that follows should be inputting to the dance, just as leads should - because it's a partner dance. It doesn't work without the other person no matter what sex/age/race/height/weight/ability/shoe size/hair colour, and for me that's the most important thing. I'm trying to dance with people, I've danced male-male in both roles, I've danced as a male follow with a female lead and I dance primarily as a male lead. Did I choose that role because thats the role I was socially primed to choose? Probably. Do I have a problem how other people choose to dance or what roles they choose? No. So why does my motivation matter? What matters is what I'm doing now and how I affect the other people around me - Am I being shitty to them and overriding them or someone else in order to make myself feel good? I really hope not.
                                                                                                                I have found the Lindy Hop dance scene to be very welcoming and accommodating, I hope it gets more so - but then I hope that the world gets more tolerant of everyone in it too.. I guess I'm just a bit of a softy and I want everyone to just get along.
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                                                                                                                    Fred Ramos a year ago
                                                                                                                    fredjramos@aol.com. Last summer (2012) at an outdoors dance I asked a attractive young woman to dance. She was from Zimbabwe and said she didn't know how to swing dance, only knew "traditional Zimbabwean dance. I told her not to worry about it and that when I made it clear to her, she should do her traditional dance. My approach was to provide a structure within which she could flourish. She was very tickled that though having never Swung Danced before she was able to do so not only effortlessly but well enough that other dancers that had previously ignored her then came flocking around and asked her to dance. Her dance style was unique and it lend itself to some interesting dynamics. Of course most men then tried to dance with her behaved in the typical "lead" role and dominatedher because they didn't know how to not do so. Needless to say she said she enjoyed dancing with me more so than the others. My favorite dance partners always take the lead various times during a dance and I find it much more entertaining than trying to dominate the dance. With newer less experienced dancers I'll use a strong lead to contain their exuberance which usually just noise on the dance floor, but as they learn to contain themselves I'll temper my lead to allow (encourage) them to express their creativity. Likewise I also appreciate dancing with someone who doesn't dominate me by expecting me to hold them up due to improper balance or using improper (usually painfull) hand holds. Many (inexperienced) women have questioned why I don't allow (tolerate) poor dance style (or handholds) that other men not only allow but expect. Only a few women are usually sufficiently aware to learn why their attempt (intentional or unintended) to dominate me will not only restrict me but also themselves. So I would suggest that most of the domination occurring is simply the result of inexperience and poor dance techniques (taught by poor and inexperienced dance Instructors). A dance style that I found interesting and fun is Zydeco. Perhaps it's because as someone once described it as " it's like dancing together with someone but apart". It allows both moves together with your partner but moments where you'll break from your partner where you move independently from your partner. Outside of Zydeco and Argentine Tango, I usually don't experience this in other dance styles except with exceptional dancers. I was fortunate to have attended most of the dances at Sid's Farm in NW Georgia where Richard Powers frequently taught. So I'll end by stating that by learning not to dominate my partner I have a better experience (and more interesting), but by learning how to provide a strong lead I'm also able to dance with many experienced dancers that would swear they've never danced before. The secret to providing a strong lead was by connecting with my partner so I can understand (follow) what they're doing sufficiently to suggest (lead) a new (different) move at the appropriate moment, but accepting that should she miss the suggested move it was probably something we didn't want to do anyway.
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                                                                                                                        Samuel a year ago
                                                                                                                        I agree that there is sexism in Lindy Hop - just as there is racism, rudeness, extreme arrogance, and any other human failings. We bring our faults to the dance floor. I would go even further and agree that the traditional structure of men lead and women follow is sexist - and that as a result often the way lead/follow is taught is sexist. This is bad and should be stopped.
                                                                                                                        However, the traditional structure of lead/follow is not sexist. It just a thing. And it's not the only thing either. There are dances that don't have lead/follow or that have a different type of lead/follow, and you could probably modify Lindy Hop to have a different type of lead/follow (though then it would be a different dance). None of these things are good or bad. They just are.
                                                                                                                        Phoenix did a very good job at explaining this idea so I won't repeat what he said, but here's something I've been noticing in my own dancing (I’m usually a lead). More and more I think about how the lead must follow the music. Just as a follow is constrained by the lead, so the lead is constrained by the music. The lead can choose to leadjack the music, so to speak, but it doesn't look as good or work as well.
                                                                                                                        In your EOC post you said in one of the exercise descriptions to always (as initiator) know what you're going to do a few beats ahead of time - and I do at least half of the dance. I have some good moments with that in mind too. But more and more, the best moments, the moments that a follow compliments me on are those moments where I'm not thinking - not planning, not leadjacking the music. Those moments where I do something and I think what did I just do? Those moments feel exactly like when I'm following and I'm lead through something I've never done before.
                                                                                                                        Ironically, the constraint imposed upon me by the idea that my lead is subordinate to the music does bother me occasionally when I realize that I can't do what I want to in a song because if I do it will 'mess the dance up.' As Nina said in one of her classes - it should hurt you to do swingouts to this song. Sometimes now it does. So I go a song without swingouts. But I (try) to give control of the dance up to the music because that creates the moments that I'm looking for.
                                                                                                                        The music is not somehow 'male' or 'dominating'. The music is not sexist. And my choice to follow the music and give up that control is not an insult to equality. It's just lead/follow.
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                                                                                                                            Jason Baggett a year ago
                                                                                                                            Props!
                                                                                                                            I've really enjoyed your writing over they last few months. It's like you are reading mind and writing about exactly what the biggest issues are for me. I'd thought about starting a blog myself to start expressing these ideas, but now I don't have to! I can just direct people here and say, "what she said!".
                                                                                                                            As I stated on an earlier article, I advocate for the same changes as you. Motivation is different though. I don't disagree that sexism is important to address, but for ME, it's really easy to advocate EOC just because it's more FUN! Fighting sexism is just a bonus!
                                                                                                                            Maybe that's just because I'm a man and will never fully understand what it is to be a woman in a sexist world, but the end result is the same.
                                                                                                                            This may be the key to sidestepping the defensiveness from men about sexism. You don't even have to say that word. You could just say "this is the most fun way to do it, gives you the most options, and it's what you see in the top leads and follows (even if they don't call it that)
                                                                                                                            Of course, you don't get the satisfaction of men understanding and agreeing with your position on sexism (which may or may not be possible), but you also get less resistance to EOC, which I THINK is your goal.
                                                                                                                            Please, keep it up!
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                                                                                                                                Fred Ramos a year ago
                                                                                                                                Perhaps it's about age(ism) as Lindy Hop draws a younger and less experienced crowd and WCS usually draws older and more experience dancers. Also I find that certain types of music seem to drive the dance style more so than other styles.
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                                                                                                                                    Tahlia a year ago
                                                                                                                                    Hi, Rebecca!
                                                                                                                                    Thank you for another considered and well-written article. I appreciate your point of view on this topic. I have experienced all of these aspects of instituted sexism in dancing (Lindy Hop and other dances) and also in non-dance contexts. It's frustrating. And as a female dancer who splits her time almost equally between leading and following, I get the institutionalized sexism in both roles.
                                                                                                                                    As a female lead I hear/have heard "You lead like a girl" (this has been both a compliment and a put-down, varying by who was saying it and the context in which it was said.) "Your body doesn't work right for leading because you're a girl."
                                                                                                                                    As I write these things down, I realize it's never "You lead like a ..." Lady, Woman, Female-- it's almost always you lead like a "GIRL". wow. It's also rarely phrased as "you lead like a beginning lead" - my mistakes are attributed to my gender, not my point of development in a skill set.
                                                                                                                                    So! skipping past all that-- I agree with you that gender inequality and stereotypes exist. I agree that they are both individual expressions and ingrained cultural tropes.
                                                                                                                                    I also agree that they are frustrating, and that when seen as a Rule of behaviour or a Rule of biology, they are limiting and sexist.
                                                                                                                                    My own belief is that sexism (probably also racism, classism, religionism (is that a word? well you know what I'm aiming at, I hope) is rarely a one-way street. If one side of the experience is feeling disempowered through the cultural expectations, my bet is that the other side feels some pressures too. Not the same pressures, maybe, but pressures nonetheless.
                                                                                                                                    And questions that I often ponder are: what are the gender-imposed pressures that male swing dancers feel? As a lead? as a follow? What are the stereotypes that you feel you have to live up to, or that you have to avoid? What are the gender-imposed benefits that you don't want to give up? What would true equality (in the dance, in the world) really mean, really look like?
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                                                                                                                                        Sam a year ago
                                                                                                                                        I second the idea that you can sidestep a lot resistance by leaving the sexism debate out of the EOC debate. I'm not an activist. I dance to have fun and not to make some sort of social or political or philosophical statement. I know that this is going to come off as annoying or even offensive to people who care deeply about about these issues, but I think discussions about sexism (or any sort of -isms, for that matter) bring with it a lot of baggage and actually discourage me from dancing. If you say that one style of dancing is less sexist than another, then I'd rather stay out of it. But if you say one style of dancing is more fun for me and my partner than another, well now you've got my attention.
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