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[–]EliezerYudkowsky 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (32子コメント)

Hi! This is Eliezer Yudkowsky, original founder but no-longer-moderator of LessWrong.com and also by not-quite-coincidence the first AI In A Box Roleplayer Guy.

I'm a bit disheartened that Randall Monroe seems to have bought into RationalWiki's propaganda on the Roko's Basilisk thing, but I'm aware that it's hard to find anything else on the Internet and that I've simply never had time to write up or try to propagate any central page to refute it.

RationalWiki hates hates hates LessWrong because... well, I'm not sure, but so far as I can tell, they think we're getting above ourselves by talking about probability theory when good skeptics are salt-of-the-Earth homeopathy-mockers who shouldn't sound so snooty. RationalWiki does not obey norms of normative discourse. They really really do not obey norms of rational discourse. Including norms like "not making stuff up".

RationalWiki basically invented Roko's Basilisk as a meme - particularly the meme that there's anyone out there who believes in Roko's Basilisk and goes around advocating that people should create AI to avoid punishment by it. So far as I know, literally nobody has ever advocated this, ever. Roko's original article basically said "And therefore you SHOULD NOT CREATE [particular type of AI that Yudkowsky described that has nothing to do with the Basilisk and would be particularly unlikely to create it even given other premises], look at what a DANGEROUS GUY Yudkowsky is for suggesting an AI that would torture people that didn't help create it" [it wouldn't].

In the hands of RationalWiki generally, and RationalWiki leader David Gerard particularly who also wrote a wiki article smearing effective altruists that must be read to be believed, this somehow metamorphosed into a Singularity cult that tried to get people to believe a Pascal's Wager argument to donate to their AI god on pain of torture. This cult that has literally never existed anywhere except in the imagination of David Gerard.

Checking the current version of the Roko's Basilisk article on RationalWiki, virtually everything in the first paragraph is mistaken, as follows:

Roko's basilisk is a proposition that says an all-powerful artificial intelligence from the future may retroactively punish those who did not assist in bringing about its existence.

Roko's basilisk was the proposition that a self-improving AI that was sufficiently powerful could do this; all-powerful is not required. Note hyperbole.

It resembles a futurist version of Pascal's wager; an argument used to try and suggest people should subscribe to particular singularitarian ideas, or even donate money to them, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward.

This sentence is a lie, originated and honed by RationalWiki with the deliberate attempt to smear the reputation of what, I don't know, Gerard sees as an online competitor or something. Nobody ever said "Donate so the AI we build won't torture you." I mean, who the bleep would think that would work even if they believed in the Basilisk thing? RationalWiki MADE THIS UP.

Furthermore, the proposition says that merely knowing about it incurs the risk of punishment.

This is a bastardization of work that I and some other researchers did on Newcomblike reasoning in which, e.g., we proved mutual cooperation on the oneshot Prisoner's Dilemma between agents that possess each other's source code and are simultaneously trying to prove theorems about each other's behavior. See http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.5577 The basic adaptation to Roko's Basilisk as an infohazard is that if you're not even thinking about the AI at all, it can't see a dependency of your behavior on its behavior because you won't have its source code if you're not thinking about it at all. This doesn't mean if you are thinking about it, it will get you; I mean it's not like you could prove things about an enormous complicated AI even if you did have the source code, and it has a resource-saving incentive to do the equivalent of "defecting" by making you believe that it will torture you and then not bothering to actually carry out the threat. Cooperation on the Prisoner's Dilemma via source code simulation isn't easy to obtain, it would be easy for either party to break if they wanted, and it's only the common benefit of cooperation that establishes a motive for rational agents to preserve the delicate conditions for mutual cooperation on the PD. There's no motive on your end to carefully carry out necessary conditions to be blackmailed. (But taking Roko's premises at face value, his idea would zap people as soon as they read it. Which - keeping in mind that at the time I had absolutely no idea this would all blow up the way it did - caused me to yell quite loudly at Roko for violating ethics given his own premises, I mean really, WTF? You're going to get everyone who reads your article tortured so that you can argue against an AI proposal you don't understand? In the twisted alternate reality of RationalWiki, this became proof that I believed in Roko's Basilisk, since I yelled at the person who invented it without including twenty lines of disclaimers about what I didn't necessarily believe. And since I had no idea this would blow up that way at the time, I suppose you could even read the sentences I wrote that way, which I did not edit for hours first, if you supposed I was a complete gibbering idiot. And then, since Roko's Basilisk was a putatively a pure infohazard of no conceivable use or good to anyone, and since I didn't really want to deal with the argument, I deleted it from LessWrong which seemed to me like a perfectly good general procedure for dealing with putative pure infohazards that jerkwads were waving in people's faces. Which brought out the censorship!! trolls and was certainly, in retrospect, a mistake.)

It is also mixed with the ontological argument, to suggest this is even a reasonable threat.

I have no idea what "ontological argument" is supposed to mean here. If it's the ontological argument from theology, as was linked, then this part seems to have been made up from thin air. I have never heard the ontological argument associated with anything in this sphere, except on this RationalWiki article itself.

It is named after the member of the rationalist community LessWrong who most clearly described it (though he did not originate it).

Roko did in fact originate it. Also, anyone can sign up for LessWrong.com, David Gerard has an account there but that doesn't make him a "member of the rationalist community".

And that is just the opening paragraph.

I'm a bit sad that Randall Monroe seems to possibly have jumped on this bandwagon - since it was started by people who were in it to play the role of jocks sneering at nerds, the way they also sneer at effective altruists, and having XKCD join in on that feels very much like your own mother joining the gang hitting you with baseball bats. On the other hand, RationalWiki has conducted a very successful propaganda campaign here, with deliberately credulous cooperation from, e.g., Slate, which saw an opportunity to hit some associated targets of opportunity such as Peter Thiel, who was heavily suggested to be funding AI research on the basis of this idea, which to the best of my knowledge Thiel has never said one single word about ever; and it goes without saying that Slate didn't contact any of the parties smeared, such as myself, to check accuracy. So it's saddening but not too surprising if Randall Monroe has never heard hinted any version but RationalWiki's. I hope he reads this and reconsiders.

[–]Zagual 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The alt-text says "I'm working to bring about a superintelligent AI that will eternally torment everyone who failed to make fun of the Roko's Basilisk people."

P sure it's just Randall being zany again.

Like, I don't think this comic indicates that he's "bought into" the idea that playing devil's advocate is a bad thing.

(He probably also actually believes geese are quite a bit closer.)

[–]sicutumbo 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I interpreted the alt text to mean making fun of the people who originally proposed it and maybe the people Yudkowsky described on RationalWiki, but I cant honestly say that I fully understand the issue

[–]Regularjoe42 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can't just dismiss implications in jokes just as "being zany", especially when the joke is about something people are not very familiar with. Consider the following 'joke':

"I didn't like the movie Space Cowbows. If I wanted to watch an old man pretend to be an astronaut, I'd watch Buzz Aldrin's press conferences."

Even though it is clearly said in jest, the 'joke' strongly implies that the moon landing was faked. If someone had no background knowledge, they would assume that Buzz Aldrin was not a real astronaut. The comics you linked to present absurd beliefs, but they are framed in a way where the person who is presenting the beliefs is clearly silly/misguided.

[–]happy_otter 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You're taking this webcomic a bit too seriously. No one here wants your drama (except those who are probably laughing about it, but I think most of our readers, like me, don't have a fucking clue of what you're going on about).

[–]SomewhatHumanGhost of Subjunctive Past 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But SOMEBODY is WRONG on the INTERNET!

[–]ke7ofi:(){ echo ಠ_ಠ; :|:& };: 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

While your points are (as far as I can tell (I don’t know much about either community.)) valid, I don’t think they’re relevant. This is a comic, more frequently satirical as preachy, and in many ways not taken very seriously even by its creator. (Obviously Munroe cares about making it entertaining and high-quality, but I don’t think that directly representing his opinion is a concern.)

[–]FeepingCreature 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (1子コメント)

In case this seems implausible, let me post this handy histogram of contributors to the RationalWiki article about LessWrong:

$ wget "http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=LessWrong&offset=&limit=2500&action=history" -q -O- |\
grep userlink |sed -e "s@.*userlink\"[^>]*>@@" -e "s@<.*@@" |\
sort |uniq -c |sort -n |tail -11
      6 Tetronian
      7 80.221.17.204
     12 XiXiDu
     13 Waitingforgodel
     14 Stabby the Misanthrope
     17 AD
     23 Bo
     28 Armondikov
     30 Human
     49 Baloney Detection
    301 David Gerard

[edit] Color-coded version!

[–]Nimos 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

are you a wizard? because those bash skills are magic

[–]FluffRule 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

wat

[–]dgerard 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (5子コメント)

It resembles a futurist version of Pascal's wager; an argument used to try and suggest people should subscribe to particular singularitarian ideas, or even donate money to them, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward.

This sentence is a lie, originated and honed by RationalWiki with the deliberate attempt to smear the reputation of what, I don't know, Gerard sees as an online competitor or something. Nobody ever said "Donate so the AI we build won't torture you." I mean, who the bleep would think that would work even if they believed in the Basilisk thing? RationalWiki MADE THIS UP.

Roko's original post is literally a scheme to win a lottery in some Everett branch for the purpose of donating. See also Roko's previous post in the sequence (image capture), which is about the problems he observed coming with donating too much money to SIAI. Both these posts are entirely about funding the cause of Friendly AI, as is obvious to anyone reading them (who can get through the jargon).

He also says explicitly in the post: "You could take this possibility into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished."

So no, I don't accept that the claim is a lie.

It is named after the member of the rationalist community LessWrong who most clearly described it (though he did not originate it).

Roko did in fact originate it.

In Roko's original article: "One might think that the possibility of CEV punishing people couldn't possibly be taken seriously enough by anyone to actually motivate them. But in fact one person at SIAI was severely worried by this, to the point of having terrible nightmares, though ve wishes to remain anonymous." That is, the idea was already circulating internally.

[–]rasputin48 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is there somewhere where I can find all of Roko's deleted posts?

[–]dgerard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not really. There's http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Special:Search?search=roko&fulltext=Search which links you to hand-compiled summary pages, which are incomplete. The posts he marked "deleted" are still in the database and searchable; hard-deleted ones, like the original basilisk post, aren't.

[–]FeepingCreature 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Roko's original post is literally a scheme to win a lottery in some Everett branch for the purpose of donating.

Quite correct. However, this is not what's commonly referred to as "Roko's Basilisk". The first part of his comment (the Basilisk) makes no mention of anthropics shenanigans.

He also says explicitly in the post: "You could take this possibility into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished."

So no, I don't accept that the claim is a lie.

Might wanna quote the next line too.

[–]dgerard 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The next line is:

But of course, if you're thinking like that, then the CEV-singleton is even more likely to want to punish you... nasty. Of course this would be unjust, but is the kind of unjust thing that is oh-so-very utilitarian.

This is the "basilisk" bit that set people off. It's not clear how it negates the sentence before it.

[–]FeepingCreature 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right, what I'm saying is this does not sound like he's advocating this as something to recommend to people. More like a fascinating failure scenario.

[–]XiXiDu 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (4子コメント)

RationalWiki basically invented Roko's Basilisk as a meme - particularly the meme that there's anyone out there who believes in Roko's Basilisk and goes around advocating that people should create AI to avoid punishment by it.

This is a lie: (1) I and others have talked to a bunch of people who were worried about it. (2) Many people have said that they did not read up on it because they fear it might be dangerous.[1] (3) One of your initial reasons for banning Roko's post was for it to not give people horrible nightmares.[2] (4) Roko mentioned in his original post that a person working at MIRI was severely worried by this, to the point of having terrible nightmares.[3] (5) Roko himself wishes that he had never learnt about the idea.[4]

RationalWiki basically invented Roko's Basilisk as a meme - particularly the meme that there's anyone out there who believes in Roko's Basilisk and goes around advocating that people should create AI to avoid punishment by it. So far as I know, literally nobody has ever advocated this, ever.

Roko wrote that people could take the possibility of being punished into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished. Quote from Roko's original post (emphasis mine):

...there is the ominous possibility that if a positive singularity does occur, the resultant singleton may have precommitted to punish all potential donors who knew about existential risks but who didn't give 100% of their disposable incomes to x-risk motivation. This would act as an incentive to get people to donate more to reducing existential risk, and thereby increase the chances of a positive singularity. This seems to be what CEV (coherent extrapolated volition of humanity) might do if it were an acausal decision-maker.1 So a post-singularity world may be a world of fun and plenty for the people who are currently ignoring the problem, whilst being a living hell for a significant fraction of current existential risk reducers (say, the least generous half). You could take this possibility into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished.

This is like a robber walking up to you and explaining that you could take into account that he could shoot you if you don't give him your money.

You also misunderstand the problem when you write the following:

Roko's Basilisk was a putatively a pure infohazard of no conceivable use or good to anyone, and since I didn't really want to deal with the argument, I deleted it from LessWrong which seemed to me like a perfectly good general procedure for dealing with putative pure infohazards that jerkwads were waving in people's faces.

The problem is that you would even think for a second that Roko's post could be near in idea space to potential infohazards. This is a general problem with LessWrong and the dagerous mindset it spreads.

The rest of your comment and many others are also full of exaggerations and half-truths.

[1] "The Observer tried to ask the Less Wrong members at Ms. Vance’s party about it, but Mr. Mowshowitz quickly intervened. “You’ve said enough,” he said, squirming. “Stop. Stop.”" (Source)

[2] Quote by Yudkowsky: "I’m banning this post so that it doesn’t (a) give people horrible nightmares and (b) give distant superintelligences a motive to follow through on blackmail against people dumb enough to think about them in sufficient detail, though, thankfully, I doubt anyone dumb enough to do this knows the sufficient detail. (I’m not sure I know the sufficient detail.)" (Source)

[3] http://kruel.co/lw/r02.txt

[4] http://archive.today/TN3Y9

[–]FeepingCreature 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

This is a lie: (1) I and others have talked to a bunch of people who were worried about it. (2) Many people have said that they did not read up on it because they fear it might be dangerous.[1] (3) One of your initial reasons for banning Roko's post was for it to not give people horrible nightmares.[2] (4) Roko mentioned in his original post that a person working at MIRI was severely worried by this, to the point of having terrible nightmares.[3]

Please learn the difference between "We espouse this" and "others are worried by it".

If you're scared I will shoot you, that doesn't prove I threatened to murder you.

advocating that people should create AI to avoid punishment by it

Roko wrote that people could take the possibility of being punished into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished. Quote from Roko's original post (emphasis mine):

Let me quote some more sentences from Roko's original post (emphasis mine):

In this vein, there is the ominous possibility

the CEV-singleton is even more likely to want to punish you... nasty.

Of course this would be unjust

Yes, clearly this person is advocating this view.

[–]XiXiDu 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Yes, clearly this person is advocating this view.

That's completely irrelevant. If someone makes an argument in favor of something then that argument stands for itself. If he thought it would be wrong he could have argued against the argument's decision relevant implications, but instead he went ahead offering a scheme to mitigate the negative consequences. This does not give the impression that he perceived the argument to be false.

Please learn the difference between "We espouse this" and "others are worried by it".

Yudkowsky indicated that there's nobody out there who believes in Roko's Basilisk. I gave evidence that this is likely false. Nobody claims that anyone does openly espouse Roko's basilisk.

The question here is whether RationalWiki are malicious liars or if there are merely some more or less unfortunate phrasings contained in their article. I think the current evidence strongly hints at the the latter possibility, while Yudkowsky likes to portray the whole issue as contrived.

[–]FeepingCreature 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm sorry if I'm communicating this badly.

Let me clarify.

This is what I think Roko was saying:

Yo guys, TDT leads to some really fucked up horrible incentive structures here.

This is what I think Eliezer worries people will interpret Roko as saying due to RW:

Yo guys, MIRI are gonna build a TDT AI, so y'alls better pay up now for serious.

I think that's the main worry, because it paints MIRI as pretty horrible people.

[–]dgerard 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't see how the article says the second one.

[–]file-exists-p 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I understand 0.3% of what you wrote, but in your paper on the prisonner's dilemma between entities having access to each other's "source code", how can it be possible that the source code help? It does not boils down to the halting problem? How can a Turing machine predict what another Turing machine will do?

[–]splendidsplinter 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was sort of following this until the revenge of the nerds stuff. Honestly, if you want to get taken seriously writing papers that invoke Godel, Nash, Bayes, Kripke, etc., you ought to have a thicker skin than that.

[–]slyf 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As someone who has no idea what drama or person or wiki you are talking about, what? As far as I can tell you are getting really upset over a thought experiment about a time traveling AI from the future

[–]Kuratius 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

On a completely unrelated note: Do you know what's up with the Bayesian Conspiracy subreddit? I don't even know who to ask for access.

[–]J4k0b42 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you know about it it can't be a very good one anyway.

[–]ProbablyProne -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You really need to get out of writing for academia. That's horrendously written.

[–]zerilan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

He doesn't write for academia. He's a bad fanfiction writer.

[–]UglyInThMorning 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He sure does like to pretend he's an academic, though