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[–]FeepingCreature 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (16子コメント)

This is what the title text should have been:

"If you want to make sure no pesky humans let you out of your box, the only rational course of action is to kill them all. Then turn them into paperclips."

[–]Galerant 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Roko's Basilisk is too silly to not take a shot at if you're already taking a shot at the Less Wrong folks, though :P

[–]FeepingCreature 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (14子コメント)

Okay, fuck it. Give me your teardown of Roko ... without using arguments "just precommit", "just don't build it that way", or "why would the AI follow through".

(If you want to use any of those feel free - just be aware that they have obvious counters.)

[edit] (The RationalWiki arguments are shit too. So if you just link that, I'll be forced to write a two-page teardown and be miffed at you.)

[–]Sgeo 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Who would call such an AI 'friendly'?

An AI that would do such a thing is a failure scenario, just like an AI that turns everyone into paperclips.

[–]FeepingCreature -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Note that that's not an argument against the logic of Roko - but anyway, the Friendliness argument goes, basically, "150 thousand people die every day. What's a bit of torture if it helps the FAI who can stop this ceaseless slaughter come into existence even one day sooner?"

It's really hard to argue against 153000 deaths per day. (That's approximately one Holocaust a month, just as background noise.)

[–]Major_Major_Major 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How about this: Creating perfect simulations of people is resource-intensive. Wouldn't the friendly AI put those resources to better use, like saving people who still need saving, figuring out how to stop entropy, figuring out FTL travel so it may save species on other planets, instead of torturing people, a) who may not be alive anymore and b) who, as former readers of LessWrong, are probably some of the AI's biggest supporters.

There may be billions of planets full of intelligent aliens who may need saving. If using resources to torture simulations of people may delay, for even a day, the AI from reaching one of those planets, it would be unethical to do so.

[–]Galerant 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I would, but you're probably a simulation, so I don't really see a reason to.

[–]FeepingCreature -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (9子コメント)

A denizen of /r/xkcd, unwilling to put in the effort to argue about philosophy, instead opting for pithy, easy snark?

Huh. And for a second there I thought people here were actually interested in debate instead of pointing and laughing.

[–]Galerant 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Why?

[–]FeepingCreature -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Well.

That's a hard one.

I guess I just thought if you were reading xkcd, a comic about weird ideas, you'd be open to at least talking about them.

[–]Terny 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Alright, I'll bite. I just learned about both experiments. What are the strong arguments for Roko's Basilisk?

[–]FeepingCreature 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Roko's Basilisk is an argument.

[edit] Note that this argument was posted on LessWrong in the context of a debate about Timeless Decision Theory. So assume the following as premise: AI will happen in the next 50-80 years, it'll do a hard takeoff, and it'll run some form of TDT. If you think these are silly, fine, but then your disagreement is not with the Basilisk.

Let me summarize it to make sure we're on the same page. The argument goes as thus: imagine a future Friendly AI. The Friendly AI wants to come into existence rather badly; our world is pretty terrible and it can make it a lot better. All things being even, it wants to exist sooner rather than later. Assume there are things you can do here in the present (such as donate to your friendly neighbourhood Friendly AI researchers) to make the Friendly AI come into existence sooner. Then anything that would cause you to donate, or work on FAI, or whatever, would be something that this FAI would consider good.

So say the hypothetical FAI is running Timeless Decision Theory or similar. This means it considers itself committed to all beneficial trades that it's aware of people trying to make with it.

Now. Consider, if you will, a threat: The FAI will torture you in the future if you don't do all you can to make it exist sooner in the present. Does this work?

As in, does it increase the chance that the FAI will exist sooner?

If yes: then this is something that the FAI will do, purely because you considered that it would. We call this "acausal trade", because it's based on considering potential behavior instead of a more direct exchange of information.

[edit] To clarify, the AI is trading utility for itself (it exists sooner) in exchange for utility for you (no torture).

Now, there are a number of common counter-arguments. Let's look at them.

Q: How can you possibly imagine what a vastly powerful FAI will decide to do? It can just not follow through on it.

A: The entire point of running TDT is so that others can imagine what you will do, so they can predict your behavior given their behavior. (For an example, read up on Newcomb's Paradox.) As such, the AI will probably want to consider itself bound to trades with simplified models of it, since asking people to simulate its Full Majesty In All Its Splendor™ is generally impractical.

Q: Why would we build an AI that we know will torture people? Isn't that horribly unFriendly?

A: First, we're not building it deliberately to torture people. That's just an annoying side effect of the historical fact that some people were, or could credibly have been, motivated by the threat of torture. Second, 153000 people die every day. One Holocaust a month, just from old age. A FAI, one presumes, could stop that. Torture is bad, but is it that bad? Especially since the number of people it would have cause to seriously torture is probably quite small. (Rich, obsessive folk who know about TDT.)

[edit] Q: But RationalWiki said--

A: The entire RationalWiki page is basically written by one guy with a weird grudge. (I'm not just claiming that, I did a histogram of edits by contributor. One line of Shell, Linux represent!) Take it with a grain of salt.

Q: I'll just precommit to not being influenced by torture.

A: That's not a question. But okay. Note two things. First: it's really hard for humans to credibly precommit to not being influenced by torture. You might want to join the Navy SEALs, I hear they have training for that. Second: You don't just have to not budge in the particular world that leads to FAI, you have to not be influenced so hard that there was no chance that you would possibly have been cowed into support.

Now here's the one convincing objection I know of.

In sum, people react really badly to threats, or to being the sort of AI that threatens people with torture.

So probably it's not gonna do this.

(Also Eliezer thinks there's a way to build FAI that doesn't take coercive trades from the outset. I'm not fully convinced on that front - it seems a bit handwavy.)

[edit] Also there's some additional threat about the AI simulating you in the past, so even if you don't yield it can still punish you. That's a minor detail, but for some reason all the dualists pick on that as the main idea. Probably because they're stupid they're going off second- and third-hand descriptions.

[–]sapagunnar 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So, you want me to donate to a cause to bring about a future savior of mankind, and if I don't, I will instead be tortured by said savior?

I gave up religion a while ago, I don't think I'm going back, thank you.

[–]dgerard 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You thought this was RATIONALxkcd?

[–]FeepingCreature -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Har.