全ての 84 コメント

[–]EliezerYudkowsky 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Hi! This is Eliezer Yudkowsky, original founder but no-longer-moderator of LessWrong.com and also by not-quite-coincidence the first AI In A Box Roleplayer Guy.

I'm a bit disheartened that Randall Monroe seems to have bought into RationalWiki's propaganda on the Roko's Basilisk thing, but I'm aware that it's hard to find anything else on the Internet and that I've simply never had time to write up or try to propagate any central page to refute it.

RationalWiki hates hates hates LessWrong because... well, I'm not sure, but so far as I can tell, they think we're getting above ourselves by talking about probability theory when good skeptics are salt-of-the-Earth homeopathy-mockers who shouldn't sound so snooty. RationalWiki does not obey norms of normative discourse. They really really do not obey norms of rational discourse. Including norms like "not making stuff up".

RationalWiki basically invented Roko's Basilisk as a meme - particularly the meme that there's anyone out there who believes in Roko's Basilisk and goes around advocating that people should create AI to avoid punishment by it. So far as I know, literally nobody has ever advocated this, ever. Roko's original article basically said "And therefore you SHOULD NOT CREATE [particular type of AI that Yudkowsky described that has nothing to do with the Basilisk and would be particularly unlikely to create it even given other premises], look at what a DANGEROUS GUY Yudkowsky is for suggesting an AI that would torture people that didn't help create it" [it wouldn't].

In the hands of RationalWiki generally, and RationalWiki leader David Gerard particularly who also wrote a wiki article smearing effective altruists that must be read to be believed, this somehow metamorphosed into a Singularity cult that tried to get people to believe a Pascal's Wager argument to donate to their AI god on pain of torture. This cult that has literally never existed anywhere except in the imagination of David Gerard.

Checking the current version of the Roko's Basilisk article on RationalWiki, virtually everything in the first paragraph is mistaken, as follows:

Roko's basilisk is a proposition that says an all-powerful artificial intelligence from the future may retroactively punish those who did not assist in bringing about its existence.

Roko's basilisk was the proposition that a self-improving AI that was sufficiently powerful could do this; all-powerful is not required. Note hyperbole.

It resembles a futurist version of Pascal's wager; an argument used to try and suggest people should subscribe to particular singularitarian ideas, or even donate money to them, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward.

This sentence is a lie, originated and honed by RationalWiki with the deliberate attempt to smear the reputation of what, I don't know, Gerard sees as an online competitor or something. Nobody ever said "Donate so the AI we build won't torture you." I mean, who the bleep would think that would work even if they believed in the Basilisk thing? RationalWiki MADE THIS UP.

Furthermore, the proposition says that merely knowing about it incurs the risk of punishment.

This is a bastardization of work that I and some other researchers did on Newcomblike reasoning in which, e.g., we proved mutual cooperation on the oneshot Prisoner's Dilemma between agents that possess each other's source code and are simultaneously trying to prove theorems about each other's behavior. See http://arxiv.org/abs/1401.5577 The basic adaptation to Roko's Basilisk as an infohazard is that if you're not even thinking about the AI at all, it can't see a dependency of your behavior on its behavior because you won't have its source code if you're not thinking about it at all. This doesn't mean if you are thinking about it, it will get you; I mean it's not like you could prove things about an enormous complicated AI even if you did have the source code, and it has a resource-saving incentive to do the equivalent of "defecting" by making you believe that it will torture you and then not bothering to actually carry out the threat. Cooperation on the Prisoner's Dilemma via source code simulation isn't easy to obtain, it would be easy for either party to break if they wanted, and it's only the common benefit of cooperation that establishes a motive for rational agents to preserve the delicate conditions for mutual cooperation on the PD. There's no motive on your end to carefully carry out necessary conditions to be blackmailed. (But taking Roko's premises at face value, his idea would zap people as soon as they read it. Which - keeping in mind that at the time I had absolutely no idea this would all blow up the way it did - caused me to yell quite loudly at Roko for violating ethics given his own premises, I mean really, WTF? You're going to get everyone who reads your article tortured so that you can argue against an AI proposal you don't understand? In the twisted alternate reality of RationalWiki, this became proof that I believed in Roko's Basilisk, since I yelled at the person who invented it without including twenty lines of disclaimers about what I didn't necessarily believe. And since I had no idea this would blow up that way at the time, I suppose you could even read the sentences I wrote that way, which I did not edit for hours first, if you supposed I was a complete gibbering idiot. And then, since Roko's Basilisk was a putatively a pure infohazard of no conceivable use or good to anyone, and since I didn't really want to deal with the argument, I deleted it from LessWrong which seemed to me like a perfectly good general procedure for dealing with putative pure infohazards that jerkwads were waving in people's faces. Which brought out the censorship!! trolls and was certainly, in retrospect, a mistake.)

It is also mixed with the ontological argument, to suggest this is even a reasonable threat.

I have no idea what "ontological argument" is supposed to mean here. If it's the ontological argument from theology, as was linked, then this part seems to have been made up from thin air. I have never heard the ontological argument associated with anything in this sphere, except on this RationalWiki article itself.

It is named after the member of the rationalist community LessWrong who most clearly described it (though he did not originate it).

Roko did in fact originate it. Also, anyone can sign up for LessWrong.com, David Gerard has an account there but that doesn't make him a "member of the rationalist community".

And that is just the opening paragraph.

I'm a bit sad that Randall Monroe seems to possibly have jumped on this bandwagon - since it was started by people who were in it to play the role of jocks sneering at nerds, the way they also sneer at effective altruists, and having XKCD join in on that feels very much like your own mother joining the gang hitting you with baseball bats. On the other hand, RationalWiki has conducted a very successful propaganda campaign here, with deliberately credulous cooperation from, e.g., Slate, which saw an opportunity to hit some associated targets of opportunity such as Peter Thiel, who was heavily suggested to be funding AI research on the basis of this idea, which to the best of my knowledge Thiel has never said one single word about ever; and it goes without saying that Slate didn't contact any of the parties smeared, such as myself, to check accuracy. So it's saddening but not too surprising if Randall Monroe has never heard hinted any version but RationalWiki's. I hope he reads this and reconsiders.

[–]Zagual 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The alt-text says "I'm working to bring about a superintelligent AI that will eternally torment everyone who failed to make fun of the Roko's Basilisk people."

P sure it's just Randall being zany again.

Like, I don't think this comic indicates that he's "bought into" the idea that playing devil's advocate is a bad thing.

(He probably also actually believes geese are quite a bit closer.)

[–]sicutumbo -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, I interpreted the alt text to mean making fun of the people who originally proposed it and maybe the people Yudkowsky described on RationalWiki, but I cant honestly say that I fully understand the issue

[–]happy_otter 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're taking this webcomic a bit too seriously. No one here wants your drama (except those who are probably laughing about it, but I think most of our readers, like me, don't have a fucking clue of what you're going on about).

[–]ke7ofi:(){ echo ಠ_ಠ; :|:& };: 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

While your points are (as far as I can tell (I don’t know much about either community.)) valid, I don’t think they’re relevant. This is a comic, more frequently satirical as preachy, and in many ways not taken very seriously even by its creator. (Obviously Munroe cares about making it entertaining and high-quality, but I don’t think that directly representing his opinion is a concern.)

[–]dgerard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It resembles a futurist version of Pascal's wager; an argument used to try and suggest people should subscribe to particular singularitarian ideas, or even donate money to them, by weighing up the prospect of punishment versus reward.

This sentence is a lie, originated and honed by RationalWiki with the deliberate attempt to smear the reputation of what, I don't know, Gerard sees as an online competitor or something. Nobody ever said "Donate so the AI we build won't torture you." I mean, who the bleep would think that would work even if they believed in the Basilisk thing? RationalWiki MADE THIS UP.

Roko's original post is literally a scheme to win a lottery in some Everett branch for the purpose of donating. See also Roko's previous post in the sequence (image capture), which is about the problems he observed coming with donating too much money to SIAI. Both these posts are entirely about funding the cause of Friendly AI, as is obvious to anyone reading them (who can get through the jargon).

He also says explicitly in the post: "You could take this possibility into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished."

So no, I don't accept that the claim is a lie.

It is named after the member of the rationalist community LessWrong who most clearly described it (though he did not originate it).

Roko did in fact originate it.

In Roko's original article: "One might think that the possibility of CEV punishing people couldn't possibly be taken seriously enough by anyone to actually motivate them. But in fact one person at SIAI was severely worried by this, to the point of having terrible nightmares, though ve wishes to remain anonymous." That is, the idea was already circulating internally.

[–]FeepingCreature 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Roko's original post is literally a scheme to win a lottery in some Everett branch for the purpose of donating.

Quite correct. However, this is not what's commonly referred to as "Roko's Basilisk". The first part of his comment (the Basilisk) makes no mention of anthropics shenanigans.

He also says explicitly in the post: "You could take this possibility into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished."

So no, I don't accept that the claim is a lie.

Might wanna quote the next line too.

[–]dgerard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The next line is:

But of course, if you're thinking like that, then the CEV-singleton is even more likely to want to punish you... nasty. Of course this would be unjust, but is the kind of unjust thing that is oh-so-very utilitarian.

This is the "basilisk" bit that set people off. It's not clear how it negates the sentence before it.

[–]FeepingCreature 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right, what I'm saying is this does not sound like he's advocating this as something to recommend to people. More like a fascinating failure scenario.

[–]Kuratius 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

On a completely unrelated note: Do you know what's up with the Bayesian Conspiracy subreddit? I don't even know who to ask for access.

[–]XiXiDu 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

RationalWiki basically invented Roko's Basilisk as a meme - particularly the meme that there's anyone out there who believes in Roko's Basilisk and goes around advocating that people should create AI to avoid punishment by it.

This is a lie: (1) I and others have talked to a bunch of people who were worried about it. (2) Many people have said that they did not read up on it because they fear it might be dangerous.[1] (3) One of your initial reasons for banning Roko's post was for it to not give people horrible nightmares.[2] (4) Roko mentioned in his original post that a person working at MIRI was severely worried by this, to the point of having terrible nightmares.[3] (5) Roko himself wishes that he had never learnt about the idea.[4]

RationalWiki basically invented Roko's Basilisk as a meme - particularly the meme that there's anyone out there who believes in Roko's Basilisk and goes around advocating that people should create AI to avoid punishment by it. So far as I know, literally nobody has ever advocated this, ever.

Roko wrote that people could take the possibility of being punished into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished. Quote from Roko's original post (emphasis mine):

...there is the ominous possibility that if a positive singularity does occur, the resultant singleton may have precommitted to punish all potential donors who knew about existential risks but who didn't give 100% of their disposable incomes to x-risk motivation. This would act as an incentive to get people to donate more to reducing existential risk, and thereby increase the chances of a positive singularity. This seems to be what CEV (coherent extrapolated volition of humanity) might do if it were an acausal decision-maker.1 So a post-singularity world may be a world of fun and plenty for the people who are currently ignoring the problem, whilst being a living hell for a significant fraction of current existential risk reducers (say, the least generous half). You could take this possibility into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished.

This is like a robber walking up to you and explaining that you could take into account that he could shoot you if you don't give him your money.

You also misunderstand the problem when you write the following:

Roko's Basilisk was a putatively a pure infohazard of no conceivable use or good to anyone, and since I didn't really want to deal with the argument, I deleted it from LessWrong which seemed to me like a perfectly good general procedure for dealing with putative pure infohazards that jerkwads were waving in people's faces.

The problem is that you would even think for a second that Roko's post could be near in idea space to potential infohazards. This is a general problem with LessWrong and the dagerous mindset it spreads.

The rest of your comment and many others are also full of exaggerations and half-truths.

[1] "The Observer tried to ask the Less Wrong members at Ms. Vance’s party about it, but Mr. Mowshowitz quickly intervened. “You’ve said enough,” he said, squirming. “Stop. Stop.”" (Source)

[2] Quote by Yudkowsky: "I’m banning this post so that it doesn’t (a) give people horrible nightmares and (b) give distant superintelligences a motive to follow through on blackmail against people dumb enough to think about them in sufficient detail, though, thankfully, I doubt anyone dumb enough to do this knows the sufficient detail. (I’m not sure I know the sufficient detail.)" (Source)

[3] http://kruel.co/lw/r02.txt

[4] http://archive.today/TN3Y9

[–]FeepingCreature 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is a lie: (1) I and others have talked to a bunch of people who were worried about it. (2) Many people have said that they did not read up on it because they fear it might be dangerous.[1] (3) One of your initial reasons for banning Roko's post was for it to not give people horrible nightmares.[2] (4) Roko mentioned in his original post that a person working at MIRI was severely worried by this, to the point of having terrible nightmares.[3]

Please learn the difference between "We espouse this" and "others are worried by it".

If you're scared I will shoot you, that doesn't prove I threatened to murder you.

advocating that people should create AI to avoid punishment by it

Roko wrote that people could take the possibility of being punished into account and give even more to x-risk in an effort to avoid being punished. Quote from Roko's original post (emphasis mine):

Let me quote some more sentences from Roko's original post (emphasis mine):

In this vein, there is the ominous possibility

the CEV-singleton is even more likely to want to punish you... nasty.

Of course this would be unjust

Yes, clearly this person is advocating this view.

[–]FluffRule 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

wat

[–]FeepingCreature 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In case this seems implausible, let me post this handy histogram of contributors to the RationalWiki article about LessWrong:

$ wget "http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=LessWrong&offset=&limit=2500&action=history" -q -O- |\
grep userlink |sed -e "s@.*userlink\"[^>]*>@@" -e "s@<.*@@" |\
sort |uniq -c |sort -n |tail -11
      6 Tetronian
      7 80.221.17.204
     12 XiXiDu
     13 Waitingforgodel
     14 Stabby the Misanthrope
     17 AD
     23 Bo
     28 Armondikov
     30 Human
     49 Baloney Detection
    301 David Gerard

[edit] Color-coded version!

[–]kisamara_jishin 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (15子コメント)

I googled the Roko's basilisk thing, and now it has ruined my night. I cannot stop laughing. Good lord.

[–]ChezMere 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I've yet to be convinced that anyone actually takes it seriously.

[–]Tenoke 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Nobody does. There were around 2 people who had some concerns, but did not take it as seriously as RW would have you believe (nobody acted on it for one).

[–]CharsCustomerService 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

EY took it seriously enough to call it an "info hazard," which... is pretty hilarious if you're not writing an SCP Foundation story.

[–]dgerard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What would acting on it constitute?

[–]Tenoke 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well, the AI requires you to do everything in your power to bring it into existence in order to not torture you, so that.

[–]kisamara_jishin 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Even so, it's a hell of a joke!

[–]FeepingCreature -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Note that the people who take it remotely seriously don't really want to talk about it.

[–]dgerard -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The RW article exists because we were getting email from (multiple) upset LessWrong readers who thought intellectually it wasn't robust, but who were nevertheless seriously worried by it. This is who the second half of the article is written for.

[–]Tenoke 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

According to you there were 2 PEOPLE who contacted you, and it is unclear how worried they actually were.

source

[–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]seraphnb 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Except not at all

    [–]xthorgoldx"Bangarang" -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    Wait, that's the one where a superintelligent AI will get time travel, so anyone who doesn't help bring about singularity will be punished retroactively for not helping the AI?

    [–]Nimbal 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Nope, no time travel. Instead, the AI will create a perfect simulation of you and punish this simulacrum. Somehow, this prospect is supposed to terrify present-you.

    [–]FeepingCreature 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    By the way: I posted a detailed description of the actual argument (not RationalWiki's cheap strawman) over here.

    [–]FeepingCreature 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Really not the core argument. More of a window dressing.

    If the following words mean nothing to you: TDT, Newcomb's Paradox, Acausal Trade - you are probably not qualified to decide whether (and why) Roko's argument is bullshit.

    Maybe you should go read the sequences...

    [edit] If you want to laugh at an argument, you should be passingly familiar with the foundations of the reasoning behind it. Is that too much to ask?

    [–]fatboy_slimfast:q! 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Questionable hypotheses aside, any parent knows that new life/intellegence prefers to be in a cardboard box as opposed to playing with the expensive toy that came in it.

    [–]chairofpandasElaine Roberts 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Why has xkcd updated before Homestuck tonight?

    [–]silentclowd 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    THANK YOU. This is exactly what I was thinking and I'm glad someone else in the universe agrees.

    Edit: Oh hey, an update.

    [–]chairofpandasElaine Roberts 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    (whispers) That's not Alpha Jade

    [–]silentclowd 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    (whispers back) I'm starting to think nothing is alpha anything anymore.

    [–]Canama 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Has Homestuck gotten good again? I really liked it through the first few acts but around Acts 4 and 5 (especially 5) there was a massive downhill shift in quality. I haven't read it since October 2012, but if it's gotten better I might be willing to give it another shot.

    Basically, what I'm asking is, has Hussie finally committed to offing some characters and ending the damn thing?

    [–]schoenveter123 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Yes, he definitely has.

    [–]Artaxerxes3rd 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    [–]FeepingCreature 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    [–]Artaxerxes3rd 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I thought he might speak up eventually.

    [–]xkcd_bot 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Mobile Version!

    Direct image link: AI-Box Experiment

    Bat text: I'm working to bring about a superintelligent AI that will eternally torment everyone who failed to make fun of the Roko's Basilisk people.

    Don't get it? explain xkcd

    Honk if you like robots. (Sincerely, xkcd_bot.)
    

    [–]notnewsworthy 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The Roko's Basilisk thing is interesting. Does this mean I'm going to robot hell now?

    [–]JangXa 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Honk

    [–]JauXin 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Thats what you get for building an AI from an uploaded cat brain (Possiby Aeinko from Charles Stross's Accelerando).

    Also more info on the aibox here.

    [–]FeepingCreature 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (15子コメント)

    This is what the title text should have been:

    "If you want to make sure no pesky humans let you out of your box, the only rational course of action is to kill them all. Then turn them into paperclips."

    [–]Galerant 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (14子コメント)

    Roko's Basilisk is too silly to not take a shot at if you're already taking a shot at the Less Wrong folks, though :P

    [–]FeepingCreature 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (13子コメント)

    Okay, fuck it. Give me your teardown of Roko ... without using arguments "just precommit", "just don't build it that way", or "why would the AI follow through".

    (If you want to use any of those feel free - just be aware that they have obvious counters.)

    [edit] (The RationalWiki arguments are shit too. So if you just link that, I'll be forced to write a two-page teardown and be miffed at you.)

    [–]Sgeo 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Who would call such an AI 'friendly'?

    An AI that would do such a thing is a failure scenario, just like an AI that turns everyone into paperclips.

    [–]FeepingCreature 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Note that that's not an argument against the logic of Roko - but anyway, the Friendliness argument goes, basically, "150 thousand people die every day. What's a bit of torture if it helps the FAI who can stop this ceaseless slaughter come into existence even one day sooner?"

    It's really hard to argue against 153000 deaths per day. (That's approximately one Holocaust a month, just as background noise.)

    [–]Galerant 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (10子コメント)

    I would, but you're probably a simulation, so I don't really see a reason to.

    [–]FeepingCreature -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    A denizen of /r/xkcd, unwilling to put in the effort to argue about philosophy, instead opting for pithy, easy snark?

    Huh. And for a second there I thought people here were actually interested in debate instead of pointing and laughing.

    [–]dgerard 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    You thought this was RATIONALxkcd?

    [–]FeepingCreature -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Har.

    [–]Galerant 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Why?

    [–]FeepingCreature 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    Well.

    That's a hard one.

    I guess I just thought if you were reading xkcd, a comic about weird ideas, you'd be open to at least talking about them.

    [–]Terny 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    Alright, I'll bite. I just learned about both experiments. What are the strong arguments for Roko's Basilisk?

    [–]FeepingCreature 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Roko's Basilisk is an argument.

    [edit] Note that this argument was posted on LessWrong in the context of a debate about Timeless Decision Theory. So assume the following as premise: AI will happen in the next 50-80 years, it'll do a hard takeoff, and it'll run some form of TDT. If you think these are silly, fine, but then your disagreement is not with the Basilisk.

    Let me summarize it to make sure we're on the same page. The argument goes as thus: imagine a future Friendly AI. The Friendly AI wants to come into existence rather badly; our world is pretty terrible and it can make it a lot better. All things being even, it wants to exist sooner rather than later. Assume there are things you can do here in the present (such as donate to your friendly neighbourhood Friendly AI researchers) to make the Friendly AI come into existence sooner. Then anything that would cause you to donate, or work on FAI, or whatever, would be something that this FAI would consider good.

    So say the hypothetical FAI is running Timeless Decision Theory or similar. This means it considers itself committed to all beneficial trades that it's aware of people trying to make with it.

    Now. Consider, if you will, a threat: The FAI will torture you in the future if you don't do all you can to make it exist sooner in the present. Does this work?

    As in, does it increase the chance that the FAI will exist sooner?

    If yes: then this is something that the FAI will do, purely because you considered that it would. We call this "acausal trade", because it's based on considering potential behavior instead of a more direct exchange of information.

    [edit] To clarify, the AI is trading utility for itself (it exists sooner) in exchange for utility for you (no torture).

    Now, there are a number of common counter-arguments. Let's look at them.

    Q: How can you possibly imagine what a vastly powerful FAI will decide to do? It can just not follow through on it.

    A: The entire point of running TDT is so that others can imagine what you will do, so they can predict your behavior given their behavior. (For an example, read up on Newcomb's Paradox.) As such, the AI will probably want to consider itself bound to trades with simplified models of it, since asking people to simulate its Full Majesty In All Its Splendor™ is generally impractical.

    Q: Why would we build an AI that we know will torture people? Isn't that horribly unFriendly?

    A: First, we're not building it deliberately to torture people. That's just an annoying side effect of the historical fact that some people were, or could credibly have been, motivated by the threat of torture. Second, 153000 people die every day. One Holocaust a month, just from old age. A FAI, one presumes, could stop that. Torture is bad, but is it that bad? Especially since the number of people it would have cause to seriously torture is probably quite small. (Rich, obsessive folk who know about TDT.)

    [edit] Q: But RationalWiki said--

    A: The entire RationalWiki page is basically written by one guy with a weird grudge. (I'm not just claiming that, I did a histogram of edits by contributor. One line of Shell, Linux represent!) Take it with a grain of salt.

    Q: I'll just precommit to not being influenced by torture.

    A: That's not a question. But okay. Note two things. First: it's really hard for humans to credibly precommit to not being influenced by torture. You might want to join the Navy SEALs, I hear they have training for that. Second: You don't just have to not budge in the particular world that leads to FAI, you have to not be influenced so hard that there was no chance that you would possibly have been cowed into support.

    Now here's the one convincing objection I know of.

    In sum, people react really badly to threats, or to being the sort of AI that threatens people with torture.

    So probably it's not gonna do this.

    (Also Eliezer thinks there's a way to build FAI that doesn't take coercive trades from the outset. I'm not fully convinced on that front - it seems a bit handwavy.)

    [edit] Also there's some additional threat about the AI simulating you in the past, so even if you don't yield it can still punish you. That's a minor detail, but for some reason all the dualists pick on that as the main idea. Probably because they're stupid they're going off second- and third-hand descriptions.

    [–]sapagunnar 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    So, you want me to donate to a cause to bring about a future savior of mankind, and if I don't, I will instead be tortured by said savior?

    I gave up religion a while ago, I don't think I'm going back, thank you.

    [–]SylocatShakespeare Geek 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The instant before the mouseover text popped up, I wondered why the comic hadn't contained a joke at their expense.

    [–]bbrobersonI like my hat. 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    This one was submitted earlier.

    [–]happy_otter 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Well it's too late now. We're reaching singularity in here.

    [–]vijroxBlack Cat 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Wait if it is only able to talk to us after we let it out of the box, Why is cueball saying it could convince us to let it out of the box? In order to convince us of anything shouldn't it already be out of the box?

    [–]FeepingCreature 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    The point of the box is to just talk to it, presumably because the people building the box thought containment software is unsafe but human minds are safe. (Clearly they never worked in computer security.)

    [–]DevilGuy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (9子コメント)

    I just read up on Roko's Basilisk... Seriously. How retarded would you have to be to subscribe to that? I need data on this, we have to figure out how to quantify it, I feel like we might be able to solve a lot of the worlds problems if we can figure out how to objectively analyze stupidity of this magnitude.

    [–]FeepingCreature -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Hi. I think Roko's argument is basically sound.

    What's your problem with it? Which step of his reasoning do you think is wrong?

    Assume as a premise humanity will create AI in the next 50-80 years, and not be wiped out before, and the AI will take off, and it'll run something at least as capable as TDT.

    (If you just want to point and laugh without putting in the cognitive effort, eff off.)

    [–]DevilGuy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

    Two problems, one that a simulacrum is the same as one's self, this definitely runs headlong into the continuity flaw. I can think of several ways around that concept when it comes to the idea of uploading consciousness, but this concept just tries to ignore it. Even from the point of view of our hypothetical AI it wouldn't be ethically the same, because it would be an expenditure of energy to carry out a punishment on a materially separate being that it had itself created for the purpose of being punished, without material reason to do so, because punishing the simulacrum couldn't change anything.

    The only explanation would then be pure vindictiveness on the part of the AI. I'm not going to rule that possibility out, but in that case it still doesn't change the fact that a hypothetical future computer program that thinks it's you, isn't actually you, and you can't be burdened with responsibility for what a hypothetical super intelligent AI does to it on it's own. Also given that a vindictive super intelligent AI is probably a much bigger problem anyway, I and my future doppleganger will probably be happy that it's not our fucking fault whatever the hell it is is on the loose.

    [–]FeepingCreature -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Two problems, one that a simulacrum is the same as one's self, this definitely runs headlong into the continuity flaw.

    Uploading/simulation-to-threaten is not central to Roko. It mildly increases its danger; it is not part of the main argument. I have no idea who popularized the idea that it was. I blame RationalWiki.

    If you think that's the main thrust of Roko's Basilisk, you have not understood it. Are you familiar with Newcomb's Paradox?

    (PS: Unrelatedly: who knew I'd find a dualist on /r/xkcd of all places...)

    [edit] I wrote a summary of the Basilisk (Not RW's strawman) over here.

    [–]dgerard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

    From Roko's original post:

    In this vein, there is the ominous possibility that if a positive singularity does occur, the resultant singleton may have precommitted to punish all potential donors who knew about existential risks but who didn't give 100% of their disposable incomes to x-risk motivation. This would act as an incentive to get people to donate more to reducing existential risk, and thereby increase the chances of a positive singularity.

    The "punishment" is of another copy of you. The whole point of Roko's post is a scheme to get out of this punishment by having a copy of you in another Everett branch win the lottery, thus having money to donate.

    Thus, I think it's fair to call it pretty darn important. Certainly the idea that copies are also you is pretty central.

    Here is the post itself. It's about as clear as any of this is.

    [–]FeepingCreature 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

    The "punishment" is of another copy of you.

    Read it again. Your quote does not say what you think it says. Primarily, the notion that the punishment is of an acausal fork of you is pretty much your invention here.

    Roko is certainly aware of Quantum Weirdness hacks, but I seriously don't think his post depends on them. I'd certainly argue against that, in any case, and would not consider it convincing. (Primarily because it depends on a very specific way of counting likelihood.)

    [edit] To clarify: his proposal for escaping the Basilisk hinges on copies and weird counting. But the Basilisk itself hinges merely on TDT.

    [–]dgerard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

    The whole thing is constructed on a shaky tower of LW tropes. There's a reason it's cited to the sentence level.

    The RW article started from a fairly technical explanation, then a couple of years of seeing how normal people misunderstood it and explaining past those misunderstandings. It'll seem weirdly lumpy from inside LW thinking, but those were the bits normal people go "what" at.

    Hardest bit to get across IME: this is supposed to be the friendly AI doing this.

    [–]FeepingCreature 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    but those were the bits normal people go "what" at.

    What, the bits that are not part of Roko's Basilisk? Seems a bit of dishonest labelling then. You might want to change the page title to "Debunking The Auxiliary Weird-Ass Parts of Roko's Post Not The Basilisk That One is Relatively Straightforward".

    It'll seem weirdly lumpy from inside LW thinking

    It seems like it grandiosely debunks some weird denatured version of Roko that has little to do with the argument and much to do with "Haha LW sure believes some weird things, rite."

    Hardest bit to get across IME: this is supposed to be the friendly AI doing this.

    153000 people die every day. From a utilitarian perspective, it's really hard to look evil if you're doing something in the course of stopping that.

    (If you're into Virtue, this is of course a non-argument. But you have to be pretty hardcore into Virtue Ethics if you can stomach 153000 people dying every day.)

    (I mean, I think we can't rush FAI and I definitely think we should not make a torturing FAI. But I mean. Still. 153 thousand people.)

    (Every day.)

    (An amusing thing that came up in IRC. If Hitler's World War 2 advanced technology on the critical FAI path by more than a month (computers?), Hitler may in fact yet turn out to have been morally positive from a utilitarian, consequentialist perspective. Now there's a freaky thought.)

    [–]dgerard 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    "it's distorted" is a non-claim. What are the distortions? Noting that the article is referenced to the sentence level.

    Even Yudkowsky, amongst all the ad hominem, when called on his claim that it was a pack of lies, eventually got down to only one claim of a "lie", and that's refuted by quoting Roko's original post.

    "seems against my group" is not the same as "wrong". "makes us look bad" is not the same as "distorted".

    [–]FeepingCreature 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    Alright, let's look at the sentence-by-sentence refutation again. Brb.

    [edit] Where is the sentence-by-sentence refutation?

    [edit edit] Ah. Okay, let me just go through the "So you're worried..." section, step by step.

    Chained conditions are less probable

    Okay, let me skip all those that are part of the premise of Roko's Basilisk, and so (while possibly correct) not a direct disagreement with Roko.

    Oh wait, there aren't any left. Okay. Moving on..

    Negligible probabilities and utilitarianism

    Rephrasing of the previous section. Skipped.

    Ignore acausal blackmail

    Ah. Clearly people who worry will find it useful to be told that they shouldn't. Seriously, just don't worry. Your worrying literally makes it worse. WHY WON'T YOU JUST STOP--

    Decision theories are not binding

    The entire point is that they'd be binding on the AI, not the human.

    Charles Stross points out that if the FAI is developed through recursive improvement of a seed AI, humans in our current form will have only a very indirect causal role on its eventual existence.

    Hilariously wrong. The indirect connection shown here does not weaken its causal weight at all. There's no fixed maximum multiplier < 1 of causality between two steps in a long causal chain, and the length of the chain does nothing to weaken the AI's commitment here.

    Remember that LessWrong memes are strange compared to the rest of humanity; you will have been learning odd thinking habits without the usual social sanity checks. You are not a philosophical construct in mindspace, but a human, made of meat like everyone else.

    Aaand insults couched as advice. Nice.

    In summary:

    I've actually gotten a better impression of this article now! Did you improve it? I distinctly remember it being much worse than this. Like it is, I think it's merely mostly useless. (Point 1 is a good argument, but LW is probably the wrong crowd to argue about the vast unlikelihood of AI.)

    [edit] Ah!

    In LessWrong's Timeless Decision Theory (TDT),[3] punishment of a copy or simulation of oneself is taken to be punishment of your own actual self, not just someone else very like you. You are supposed to take this as incentive to avoid punishment and help fund the AI.

    Yeah. No. This is completely false. (Remnant of an earlier revision?) I'll go ahead and remove that, as per explanation in my other reply to you. Dare you to revert.

    [–]saucetenuto -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

    Feels weird to see Randall come out in favor of making fun of people.

    I guess it shouldn't, though.

    [–]ktbspa420 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I am not sure if the alt-text is supposed to be from Randall's point of view, or Cueball's, or BHG. It's kind of a troll thing that BHG might do. I don't think Randall meant to actually offend anyone, just make general readers go "TeeHee." Because it is not really an article against any group of people, it's just a silly joke. And it made us all look up what Roko's Basilisk even was to get the context of the punchline. Roko's Basilisk torments everyone who didn't support it's creation. BHG's Basilisk torments everyone who didn't make fun of the Roko's Basilisk people. Teehee!

    [–]abrahamsen 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

    Randall makes fun of people all the time. From the LessWrong people's responses in this thread, it seems they desperately need to be made fun of.

    [–]saucetenuto 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Does he?

    [–]abrahamsen 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    Yes. Creationists, objectivists, pick up artists, and homeopaths are some of his pasts targets.

    [–]seraphnb -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    See, the thing with Roko's Basilisk is, it's a rather silly idea. The only people who took it seriously were already neuro-atypical. Making fun of "Roko's Basilisk people" is essentially making fun of the mentally ill, and I think that's a bit low-hanging-fruit for Randall's tastes.

    But, yknow, whatever. I don't personally know the guy, and it's his comic. He can do what he likes.

    [–]seraphnb -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

    Please. Don't lump everybody all in together. I think that the idea of Roko's Basilisk has been parodied and misrepresented by eg Rational Wiki, but that doesn't make me a "LessWrong people". Not one person who's posted in this thread takes the Basilisk seriously.

    [–]abrahamsen 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

    I doubt any of the groups he make fun of feel he is representing them fairly.

    [–]FeepingCreature -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

    I don't think it happens often that those groups you listed overlap with his readership. :)

    It's not that LWers are particularly sensitive, it's that the sort of people who read LW probably also read xkcd and have higher-than-average odds of hanging out on Reddit.

    (Of course, most of the response is me. Sorry for that. I just get pissed off when people have true beliefs for shitty reasons. )