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"Veganism is a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing and any other purpose." - The Vegan Society
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New Vegan craving meat? (self.vegan)
veganrandom が 15 時間 前 * 投稿
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[–]amprok 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 15 時間 前 (18子コメント)
When I was starting out, and was having similar issues, a friend offered this advice (which I think worked).
Your body tends to crave things it's used to and needs. Meat is healthy in moderation and has a lot of great stuff in it, (namly protein and iron). So when I was craving say, steak or something, I'd go eat beans/rice with some leafy greens (protein, and iron). if was craving say milk (which has a lot of calcium) i'd drink oj, or spinach, or whatever...
this trick does NOTHING to stop the cravings immediately, but supposedly rejiggers your noggin into connecting vegan sources of cravings on top of old traditional non vegan ones.
I have no idea if there is any scientific merit to this at all, but i got me through the first year, and 20 some years later, i -literally- never crave meat.
[–]veganrandom[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 14 時間 前 (0子コメント)
Thank you, I ill definitely try your suggestions, hopefully that will hit the nail on the head!
[+]HaroBreka スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント 14 時間 前 (9子コメント)
Meat is healthy in moderation
lol, no. Might not kill you in moderation but it's not healthy.
[–]amprok 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 14 時間 前 (8子コメント)
im as vegan as anybody, but youre ignoring vasts amounts of research and human history that say otherwise. im not saying its ethical, but in moderation it can be healthy.
[–]HaroBreka -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 13 時間 前 (1子コメント)
No, I'm including vasts amounts of research and human history which indicate that ingesting animal body parts is bad for humans. Period. The more they eat of it, the worse it is for them and at no point is it every healthy for them. It's good for making it though certain survival situations when there's no plant food around and that's about it. (And that's assuming you think you have the right to murder another animal to sustain your existence in that survival situation.)
[–]amprok 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 13 時間 前 (0子コメント)
Please find me one piece of peer reviewed research, in your "vast" research, that says that any amount of meat in moderation is inherently bad for you.
Please find me the peer reviewed data that says any amount of moderate meat consumption, at all, is worse for you than the protein, iron, b12, etc, etc, gleaned from it.
You won't. Go ahead and look. The thing that destroys anti-vegan health arguments is that humans are awesome. We need fuel to live (protein, carbs, vitamins, minerals, etc). But the thing that makes veganism possible (and your argument rediculous) is that our bodies don't care where the fuel comes from, so long as it comes.
Need protein? Awesome eat a steak! What if there's no steak? No problem, Eat beans! Do either in moderation coupled with physical activity and you'll avoid both heart disease and starvation.
Your thesis is basically that the human body is biased against essential fuel requirements. Which is insanity.
[–][deleted] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 14 時間 前 (5子コメント)
Every research paper I've read says that vegans live longer than meat-eaters (even those that only eat it in moderation) due to the reduced risk of heart disease.
Plus, "human history" doesn't prove anything in your case. Historically, people smoked like chimneys, played with mercury, and drove cars without seatbelts. On average, we still lived to pretty old age like this. Doesn't mean that any of these things are healthy.
[–]amprok 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 13 時間 前 (4子コメント)
Good lord. This is why health vegans annoy me and why non vegans think we're crazy.
If you honestly think -any- amount of moderate meat consumption is unhealthy than you know absolutely nothing about human biology.
Fuck, beer is healthy in moderation. Candy can be fucking healthy in moderation, but steak once a week? "Lol".
Human history does prove shit if you pay even the slightest amount of attention to tiny details like evolution.
The case for veganism is within ethics. Veganism -can- be healthy/healthier, but to dismiss any health benifits from meat is to expose ignorance.
[–][deleted] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント0 ポイント 13 時間 前* (3子コメント)
Logical fallacies you used in your previous argument:
First, don't use insults when arguing (ad hominem). Secondly, I'm 100% an ethical vegan, and not a health-vegan (strawman argument). Any health benefits I get from veganism are purely secondary. I do this for the animals, and not for myself. Don't try to discredit what I'm saying because you don't think I'm a "real" vegan that does things for the "real reasons" (No True Scotsman)
Also, two wrongs don't make a right. Most candies aren't healthy, even in moderation. This does not somehow prove that meat is healthy.
Lastly, "evolution" is not an argument. First, it's a word. At that, you didn't explain how it pertains to the subject at hand. You just assumed that meat was healthy because our ancestors consumed it and considered it natural (appeal to nature). Just because meat helped us evolve into who we are does not mean that it's going to continue helping us evolve. It also doesn't mean that it's healthy.
Here are various peer-reviewed publications that state that meat eating, even in moderation, shortens your life
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1607S.short
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/526S.short
If you would like me to find a few dozen more that come to the same conclusion, please let me know and I will be happy to accommodate your needs. If you respond, please do so without using the fallacies I listed above. Also, please support your claims with peer-reviewed journal articles as I have done.
EDIT: Also, the false dichotomy argument. Meat can be both unethical and unhealthy. It doesn't have to be one or the other. And although it isn't a logical fallacy, you didn't really support your claims by citing peer-reviewed papers. If you do this, I will listen
EDIT #2: Being downvoted for using formal logic? Blah. I'm too old for Reddit. Bye!
[–]amprok 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 10 時間 前 (0子コメント)
You are actually everything that is wrong with the animal rights community. Your type of blind following, passion before fact seeking knowledge, is why people discredit us.
I’m not going to address everything point for point that you said, because it’s all such complete and utter bullshit, but Ill hit the main points, and then show how your supportive articles, dont actually support you at all. (i’m pretty sure you didn’t actually read them either)
When did I say you weren’t a “real” vegan?
Yes, ‘most’ candies aren’t healthy, even in moderation. see the use of the word ‘most’ there. Holy shit, Most! Meaning, SOME will be okay, meaning MODER-FUCKING-ATION. Jesus christ youre dense.
“Just because meat helped us evolve into who we are does not mean that it's going to continue helping us evolve. It also doesn't mean that it's healthy.”
Regarding evolution: If homo-erctus was living on nothing but Faygo and cheetos, I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t have lived long enough to evolved. Although, arguably, both of these could be fine in moderation….
And then your articles. Had you actually read them, you would see that they just discredit everything you’re championing.
I’ll TLDR it for you, as evidently you didn’t read them.
The general conclusion of BOTH articles is that you should LIMIT your meat consumption, not that ALL MEAT IS BAD ALWAYS. You see, there is a difference in LIMITING, and ELIMINATING. I’m not sure why you can’t figure that out.
IN fact, to LIMIT something is to MODERATE it. FUCKING MODERATION.
Anyways, if you’re still reading, which I doubt, here are quotes from your articles, that dont support your thesis.
“There is general agreement that red meat consumption increases the risk of colon or colorectal cancer. This was the only food association with cancer that was labeled “convincing” in the recent report from the World Cancer Research Fund, American Institute for Cancer Research…”
(meaning chicken, pork, fucking veal, duck, dog, cat, whatever is “not convincing”, and these are pretty ok in moderation)
“…There are several hypotheses about mechanisms for an effect of meat (48), but the evidence is as yet not compelling for any.”’
(meaning, vegans are generally more health conscious, which may lead to the benefits despite, or in conjunction with their diets, this is further expanded later here:)
“One interpretation is that British vegetarians have an advantage compared with the general population but that other health-conscious subjects manage equal benefits without totally removing meat from the diet.”
(And if you read the conclusion, all they could figure out is that a) red meat in particular shows some causation, although it differs from the US and the UK, and that further studies are need. They also again, talk about the over all health consciousness of veg*ns and how that may skew the data. and FURTHER -more importantly to you citing things that disagree with you, that health conscious meat eaters can have similar benefits )
This isn’t saying your thesis, ‘all meat in any quantity is bad for you’. Not even close.
article two first paragraph -if you actually read what your referencing, which you clearly didn’t.
“Our review of the 6 studies found the following trends: 1) a very low meat intake was associated with a significant decrease in risk of death in 4 studies, a nonsignificant decrease in risk of death in the fifth study, and virtually no association in the sixth study; 2) 2 of the studies in which a low meat intake significantly decreased mortality risk also indicated that a longer duration (≥ 2 decades) of adherence to this diet contributed to a significant decrease in mortality risk and a significant 3.6-y (95% CI: 1.4, 5.8 y) increase in life expectancy; and 3) the protective effect of a very low meat intake seems to attenuate after the ninth decade. Some of the variation in the survival advantage in vegetarians may have been due to marked differences between studies in adjustment for confounders, the definition of vegetarian, measurement error, age distribution, the healthy volunteer effect, and intake of specific plant foods by the vegetarians.”
(low meat intake = eating meat in moderation)
(again, similar to the last article they acknowledge that this data may be skewed by the demographics, i.e. veg*ns living in affluent nations, and in general being more healthy because/or regardless, of diet. )
“It is noteworthy that prospective studies relating diet to mortality tend to be conducted in affluent nations in which there is a low prevalence of meatless diets [≈6% follow meatless diets in the United States (14)]—a design feature that can substantially limit the statistical power to detect a relation between meatless diets and survival. “
(and then their conclusion, in which they talk about low meat benefits for mortality)
“A summary of the findings from the 6 studies that directly related very low intake of all meats to all-cause mortality is shown in Table 1⇑. Five of the 6 studies indicated a decrease (from a 25% decrease up to almost a 2-fold decrease) in risk for very low meat intake relative to higher meat consumption. “
So yeah, please, FIND ONE fucking peer reviewed article that says that ANY amount of meat is bad for you. Please.
[–]okrahtime 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 10 時間 前 (0子コメント)
Did you read both of these studies in full? The first one states in the conclusion and in the body of text that: "In the British study there is, again, little difference between vegetarians and mainly health-conscious nonvegetarians, but large differences are seen when comparing with rates in the general population."
Nevermind, I just refreshed and you took your ball and went home. That's sad, I just read the information you posted and wanted to discuss.
[–]amprok 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 10 時間 前 (0子コメント)
Looks like they deleted their post. If anyone wants to read the articles they posted which support REDUCING meat for health outcomes they are here: http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1607S.short http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/526S.short
both good articles, neither support the o.g. thesis though.
[–]triffid_boy -4 ポイント-3 ポイント-2 ポイント 12 時間 前 (6子コメント)
Your thoughts are sensible, but its built on a foundation of bulshit. We don't crave things that are "healthy" we crave things that provide as much energy as possible. Its how we evolved, get calories in, as many as possible. Enough to defend and shag and reproduce.
Cravings don't matter too much, find ways to control them. Chocolate was always my vice.
[–]blublesch 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 12 時間 前 (4子コメント)
Sources on that? Calling something bullshit and then following up with some story is not helpful in any way.
[–]furmat60plant-based diet 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 12 時間 前 (0子コメント)
He's wrong, it isn't about calories. You can get 2000 calories in a day and still be hungry it your body isn't getting the nutrients it needs. 2000 calories of McDonald's or 2000 calories of nutritious whole foods will have an entirely different effect on your body as far as energy levels and overall "full" feeling. Normally when you crave a food, yor body is wanting some of those nutrients of course, but your brain is stimulated I different ways when you're used to eating foods you enjoy.
Source: currently studying nutrition.
[–]triffid_boy 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 12 時間 前* (2子コメント)
well, in fairness OP didn't provide sources either.
[–]blublesch 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 12 時間 前 (1子コメント)
You might have replied to the wrong person, I didn't make any statements.
[–]triffid_boy 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 11 時間 前 (0子コメント)
fair point, didn't read your usernames.
[–]amprok 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 10 時間 前 (0子コメント)
totally agree. that's why i acknowledge that i had no idea if this had any scientific merit to it.
i had a similar discussion with a friend who said he pretty much only craved tofutti cuties.
but at the end of the day it worked for me.
we are super-serious about privacy and never spam. learn more.
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[–]amprok 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント (18子コメント)
[–]veganrandom[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント (0子コメント)
[+]HaroBreka スコアが基準値未満のコメント-8 ポイント-7 ポイント-6 ポイント (9子コメント)
[–]amprok 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント (8子コメント)
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[–]amprok 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント (0子コメント)
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