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A community vote on OppaWumboStyle (self.pokemon)

wtfRedditGiovanni does not like you asking questions[M] が 投稿 - stickied post

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[–]AbsentmindedAssholePeace is a lie, there is only passion 61 ポイント62 ポイント  (54子コメント)

I AM AWARE THIS IS AN UNPOPULAR OPINION, BUT I BELIEVE I HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOICE IT

I am sorry, but this is a terrible decision. Not only re-instating him but also the vote.

First, he goes behind your back and unbans someone after they were banned for a reason. Then he basically rises his own personal army in the subreddit by making a post and acting like the victim. He abused his power as a moderator to back the leaker, which still hasn't been proven as true. Moderators should NOT take objective views in things like this. He unbanned the fellow because he was already personally invested in the leak, in both contact with the leaker and the actual video that he produced.

If Wumbo is actually going behind the other moderators backs and unbanning people and such, they he isn't following the same agenda as the rest of the team. I'm not saying he is bad. I'm not saying he shouldn't have a moderator position. I am saying he shouldn't have a moderator position with the current moderators of /r/Pokemon.

Second, a vote this close to the drama is probably not a very good idea. People are still not stepping back from the situation and having a look at the full story. They are emotionally invested in the story still and will vote which way because of that.

To quote Abraham Lincoln from the Lego Movie "A house divided against itself... would be better than this!"

[–]wtfRedditGiovanni does not like you asking questions[S,M] 48 ポイント49 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I respect your opinion, but I would like to clarify a few things.

Then he basically rises his own personal army in the subreddit by making a post and acting like the victim.

He is entitled to his side of the story, and much of what he said is accurate yet embellished in some parts. He didn't 'raise an army', people just upvoted his post because they thought he was unfairly removed.

Second, a vote this close to the drama is probably not a very good idea.

And what would the option be? Allow the drama to fester and hold a vote in a week when everyone is resentful of the mod team? I decided to hold the vote now so that we can focus on ORAS and not let this distraction take over the sub.

If Wumbo is actually going behind the other moderators backs and unbanning people and such, they he isn't following the same agenda as the rest of the team.

This is a valid point, and if he gets added back we will make it very clear to him that this will not be tolerated and that we has to consult the other mods before reversing a ban.

[–]FreshLime 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He is entitled to his side of the story, and much of what he said is accurate yet embellished in some parts.

That's true. However your original story was really enough when it stated that "His style of moderating didn't work well with the rest of the team". There was no need for him to make a new thread about how he is the victim when this is the truth anyway.
Besides for what purpose? He wasn't ridiculed when he was demodded. If he had the community in mind he would have left the mod team without making a massive shitstorm.

And what would the option be? Allow the drama to fester and hold a vote in a week when everyone is resentful of the mod team?

The opinions change very quickly. Just look at the change already. I doubt users would "resent" you if you guys waited a little longer. The users would most likely care less actually and make better choices, instead of being clouded by emotional investment and surprise.

This is a valid point, and if he gets added back we will make it very clear to him that this will not be tolerated and that we has to consult the other mods before reversing a ban.

What is the point in having a a mod which you guys distrust and need to keep on a tight leash? The tone between the mods will not likely improve after this anyway. Besides I don't think such a community vote is a good idea anyway.What does that say about you? That the people that are chosen to moderate can't make a good decision on their own. It also gives the impression that you can get remodded if you whine enough.
Final question: Do you go by a say 60/40 vote for, or to they need a supermajority? I personally don't think it is a good reason to mod someone if they are that controversial, since you guys think the community is suited to chose mods anyway.
Sorry if this come off as agressive. That's not my intention but I do think this was a bad solution.

[–]ceol_ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is literally nothing you can do that will please everyone. As moderators, your job is to keep the silent majority in mind, and I can tell you they don't give a rat's ass about any of this. The drama would have been forgotten in a week, tops, especially when ORAS is released.

Like the others have said: Allowing the community to vote on this will only serve to make more people upset. Folks will say the voting period didn't last long enough or it was brigaded, no matter the outcome.

[–]AbsentmindedAssholePeace is a lie, there is only passion 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He didn't 'raise an army', people just upvoted his post because they thought he was unfairly removed.

I'm aware that it wasn't on purpose and sorry if that wasn't clear. But by making himself out as the victim he has done exactly that. The post and downvote brigading showed that.

And what would the option be?

Honestly, I am not sure anything needs to be done. Wumbo screwed up and has divided the team. If he gets put back, what will happen? There will always be that tiny pang of resentment, possibly on both sides. He has shown he doesn't want to cooperate and isn't afraid to just deny a consensus.

[–]koarandy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He did "raise an army" though... I skimmed over the sticky and found his post first, read it, and came here because he mentions the poll at the end of his post.

[–]FUCK_MY_PROLAPSE -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're a good guy.

[–]PandaStyle00 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you made the smart decision. If you didn't hold a vote now or at least figure oyt a solution to the problem, then all the hype over the thing OWS got banned for would be gone because everyone would be arguing. At first when i read his side i started feeling like you mods were being dickish, but you seem like a fair level headed bunch of people.

[–]PandaStyle00 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think you made the smart decision. If you didn't hold a vote now or at least figure oyt a solution to the problem, then all the hype over the thing OWS got banned for would be gone because everyone would be arguing. At first when i read his side i started feeling like you mods were being dickish, but you seem like a fair level headed bunch of people.

[–]CaptButterToast3497-1391-7701 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Agreed, whenever you make a poll like this; it never ends well.

No matter what, DO NOT ask the community to make a staffing decision no matter what the circumstances, because once you do that, you create a community mindset that believes it is part of the staff itself. This is not a sign of a healthy community, and will cause more problems than good in the long run.

[–]jensenj2I want to know what a 'Trainer' is. 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Unfortunately, our hands are rather tied on the matter. It's not a perfect solution but it's the only one that's going to be seen (by the community) as universally fair!

[–]CaptButterToast3497-1391-7701 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I understand. I'm just speaking from personal experience as ex staff of the MCGamer Network; a Minecraft hub server with a current player base of ~8,000,000 since our launch 3 years ago.

This exact same situation happened for me twice. People started a petition on our forums to get someone fired for something that never happened. We, the Sr. Staff, knew that the person never did what they were being blamed for doing, but the community was following someone who had a personal grudge against us and faked evidence to say they did. Once the petition reached it's goal, the person had enough of the hate and stepped down, letting the community win. For the next 3 months; every time a new staff member was hired, a petition was held to get them fired because someone decided they didn't like them.

[–]jensenj2I want to know what a 'Trainer' is. 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

To be completely honest, I'm not the biggest fan of this solution either. But my personal opinion on the matter is wholly irrelevant.

Mod teams are a democracy, (as I have no doubt that you're aware of, given your previous position) and we must make decisions as such. This poll, imperfect a solution as it is, reflects that sentiment!

[–]CaptButterToast3497-1391-7701 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Trust me, I know how that feels >.< Just remember to respect the opinions of your fellow staff members, you already know that, but there was one Sr Moderator hired around the same time as I (Sept. 2013) who's vote was overruled in a Sr Staff meeting on a specific subject.

He left mid-meeting, left the staff skype chats, permabanned himself, and has not been seen since.

Don't be like him xD

[–]Wild_Shiny_Eevee -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is why my modding and main accounts are separate in communities where it's possible

[–]FistingAmy 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think the community should be involved in "staffing." As well as we should be informed. While I agree the ultimate decision should lie with the rest of the moderators, I believe we should have voice in the matter. And that voice should be taken into consideration.

[–]CaptButterToast3497-1391-7701 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

While it is good to have a word in the discussion and decision, giving the community the final word is never a good idea.

[–]Naive_RioluBetter than the hasty sort 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I applaud you from behind my computer screen.

[–]DrPolarBearMD 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Agreed

[–]scorpzrage 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

The problem in the first place was outright de-modding him.

Why wasn't the issue resolved beforehand?

From what I could gather, he tried to tell them that he thought they did something wrong and got frustrated when he didn't get an answer, so he did something that pissed them off which made them revoke his mod status.

Everyone makes mistakes. Give him a warning that what he did was not agreeable and if he acts like that again he has been warned and then gets de-modded.

That being said, I probably don't know the full story and definitely don't know if something had happened beforehand to warrant this instant action, so I'll stay away from this poll.

Either way, all the best wishes to the mod team and Wumbo.

Edit: There's something else I don't quite understand regarding that whole fiasco. If the mods decided they aren't in a place to say if a leak is legit or not, why would that even be an issue at all? Just let the supposed leaker post and the community discuss?

[–]AbsentmindedAssholePeace is a lie, there is only passion 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

got frustrated when he didn't get an answer

He gave them two hours. Two hours to respond isn't enough when you are discussing overturning a decision that was made by everyone else.

Either way, he went against the wishes of all the other moderators. If you start splintering your moderator team, you end up with what happened to /r/WoW the last couple days. A moderation team being destroyed because of the decision of one moderator.

[–]scorpzrage 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

He gave them two hours.

Yeah, I know.

Two hours to respond isn't enough when you are discussing overturning a decision that was made by everyone else.

But this is what I don't know. I don't know how much time the mods invest in modding and how much time usually passes before they answer each other. Yet another aspect of why I don't think I can objectively judge this situation.

Either way, he went against the wishes of all the other moderators. If you start splintering your moderator team, you end up with what happened to /r/WoW the last couple days. A moderation team being destroyed because of the decision of one moderator.

I don't know what incidents like this do to the morale of a mod team, but it can't be nice to know you'll get thrown out if you mess up once (if that was a first), without the issue being thoroughly discussed beforehand.

As I said, I don't think I know enough to vote on this poll.

Fair points either way.

[–]Deathmask97Gen 3 for Life -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't know what incidents like this do to the morale of a mod team, but it can't be nice to know you'll get thrown out if you mess up once (if that was a first), without the issue being thoroughly discussed beforehand.

This is what ultimately made me think this whole thing was either personal or just unwarranted. If there were any prior offenses, now is the time to bring them up. There were silent about this and one of the mods merely mentioned an unrelated incident in another sub as an aside, so I don't think that should count.

The fact that this all went down in so little time makes it feel all rushed and like someone has been pushing the decision for a while now, possibly being against Oppa before he even became a mod (which was also stated in the comments by /u/Thundergrunge).

I'm happy they let the community have a voice on this because honestly the whole thing has seemed fishy from start to finish. Even if Oppa isn't granted his mod status back because the results of the poll were too low, I'd be happy with that decision because both sides of the story have been laid out and Oppa has been judged accordingly and not because of other questionable factors.

[–]_Vote_EXTEEEEEERMINATE 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

+1

[–]pokemaniacausMake it Rain Baby 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (20子コメント)

The leaker is legitimate mate, have you seen all 17 photos?

Irrefutable, almost impossible to fake.

[–]ZhadebladeInkay kawaii desu. 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (10子コメント)

Irrelevant. The mods made a group decision, and Oppa refused to accept it.

[–]rawbeee 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Agreed, who cares if the leaks were legit or not, they got the best of him and he went behind their backs.

[–]PandaStyle00 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Everyone should care because the whole point of this sub is to be about pokemon, and now we aren't focusing on the pokemon aspect. We are becoming /r/drama. If the leaks are real then Oppa was right, and the mod team was wrong (not that i dont respect the mod team).

[–]pokemaniacausMake it Rain Baby -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Not irrelevant when the poster states

He abused his power as a moderator to back the leaker, which still hasn't been proven as true

Just responding to the poster's claims

[–]ZhadebladeInkay kawaii desu. 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Key phrase in the sentence being "He abused his power". Until the game comes out, the leaks won't be proven correct or incorrect.

Edit: grammar

[–]pokemaniacausMake it Rain Baby -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The leaks were literal pictures of the area nav

I'm willing to give you gold for a year if the area nav turns out to be fake.

[–]ZhadebladeInkay kawaii desu. 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Does the phrasing "Won't be proven incorrect or correct" work better for you? It's ambiguous right now, even if the leaks have been announced previously. They're still irrelevant to Oppa's mod status.

[–]ZeroTheSaviorWHY U NO MISSINGNO 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

How is it impossible if people can hack the ORAS roms and change the text?

[–]pokemaniacausMake it Rain Baby -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because people can't back new mauville into the demo

[–]AbsentmindedAssholePeace is a lie, there is only passion -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

No, I haven't seen them sorry. But even if they were, it was for his own, rather than the moderators as a whole, gain by unbanning the supposed leaker.

[–]sable-kingUse Flare Blitz! 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

What did he have to gain by unbanning the leaker? He wanted the community to see these pics.

[–]ZhadebladeInkay kawaii desu. 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Popularity! That's what this is all about anyways. What did he have to lose? Nothing that immediately occurred to him. So, he contradicted the other mods.

[–]AbsentmindedAssholePeace is a lie, there is only passion 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Please read their side of the story

It was discussed with the mods that Throwaway was most likely the throwaway account from a month ago. Throwaway was banned for spreading misinformation, claiming to be an employee of Nintendo. He also harassed Thundergrunge.

[–]needude72 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

things shouldn't be done for the mods. they should be done for the readers of the subreddit, which they were

[–]AbsentmindedAssholePeace is a lie, there is only passion 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Definitely shouldn't. But making their own job harder for a few leaks isn't worth it.

[–]Rockslicer747Soo... Whatcha gonna do? -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I know that this is random, but do you have a link to those leaks?

[–]AverageAnon2 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

I think he definitely needs to go for a while. I saw a similar thing happen in another sub; a mod made a mistake, so he was removed from the mod team. He didn't argue against it, admitted his mistake, and continued to be active. A few months later, he was put back on the mod team. The whole thing had no drama.

[–]FifthDragonI'm getting there -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with you wholeheartedly on all accounts, except that he shouldn't be reinstated. He did do something he shouldn't have, and instead of owning up to his mistake, he tried to dodge the bullet, but he's also done a lot of good things. I believe that this is a punishable offense, but he should also get another chance.

[–]dcopupp -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Alright, a couple things I find problematic with this. First, I don't think you understand what an objective view is. An objective view is unbiased, not based on your own personal opinions or views. What you meant here was they should not take subjective views. Which for the most part I agree with. I don't think he did it because he was personally invested in the leak however. I mean, I wouldn't have given him credit for the leak, I would've just been like "Oh this mod is posting stuff from a guy who is leaking stuff". I don't think he should have done that stuff without further discussing with the rest of the mods. We could have waited a bit until he did do so. I also don't think the rest of the mods should have kicked him out for it tho, in the end he was doing what he thought was best. I don't think he was doing it for his own personal gain. I'd do a TLDR but, I feel like this is all necessary info.

[–]AbsentmindedAssholePeace is a lie, there is only passion 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sorry, the first is a grammatical mistake. Still not very good with my English.

The second I think was covered by /u/_Vote_. There has been previous incidences of Wumbo making power grabs, and then cracking it when he doesn't get his way. He was heavily invested in the leaker, so that clouded his judgement.

Thanks for the reply though.

[–]pokemaniacausMake it Rain Baby -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

This post right here completely changed the nature of the poll

You've got reddit eating out of the palm of your hands ;)

[–]rawbeee 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Reminds me of a certain explanatory thread last night, hmm

[–]loveyouinblue -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

LOL so true

[–]MathiaSSJ18 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Relvant username