全ての 34 コメント

[–]WalterSear 12 ポイント13 ポイント * (2子コメント)

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Jarod Lanier is an ass who can't recognize that

A) We are a culture in flux, not one at equilibrium. We are still searching for consensus on the way to reward intellectual property creators.

B) People are still willing to pay for things of value, just not necessarily the way they have in the past.

C) We are seeing last year's sacred cows tossed from their pedestals. So no, Jared, no one is going to pay to read your blog: why would they want to, when so many others have better things to say, and are doing so for the sake of their own edification and to further the conversation.

D) The barrier to entry has dropped and consequently the amount of published creativity has risen, but so has the amount of crap, so naturally search systems and taste makers have risen in power.

E) Creative work has always been fetered by economics: just as bach and mozart who's bitch they were - their music relied on the patronage of kings and other monied folk. For that matter, ask anyone who couldn't get a recording deal in the 70s, and consequently couldn't record.

F) Society MUST ultimately pay for intellectual property if it wants to be created. However, first, the former monopolisers of public discourse must finally die, and the guardians of old ways of thinking must be circumvented. They say it takes about a generation's worth of time before a theory can be overturned in physics because adherents to the old ways need to die first.

G) The technology isn't there yet, in part because the old guard know that remunerating IP creators in an egalitarian manner would be worse for them than piracy.

[–]liveart 0 ポイント1 ポイント * (1子コメント)

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I think a major crux of the issue is this:

The problem in each case is not that you stole from a specific person but that you undermined the artificial scarcities that allow the economy to function.

The more technology advances, the less scarcity there is. As you've said, the barrier to entry has dropped. Not only that, but we now have tools that make creating quality art, music, movies, ect easier to the extent where you can get sufficiently good/useful results with a few months practice rather than years of toil.

The experts still require years of practice to get where they are and, rightly, demand the highest pay; but they can no longer compete in the 'good enough' category for output:pay ratio, creating an abundance in the supply of talent for too little demand. We need to adapt and learn to deal with these changes rather than condemn them. This type of 'share and share alike' attitude is a good thing and will not be contained to the digital for long.

There are already advances being made in home fabrication and once the technology gets sufficiently advanced we will see the decline, but not immediate death, of major manufacturing. When you can build it at home, physical patents will suffer the same fate as copyright: an unenforceable set of rules that run at odds with progress.

We need to learn to adapt to a new economic model, ideally one not based on an artificial scarcity and reliant on excessive consumption. An economic system based on new found abundance, ease of replication, and freedom of information. It's happening now, like it or not. Be prepared.

[–]WalterSear 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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An economic system based on new found abundance, ease of replication, and freedom of information. It's happening now, like it or not. Be prepared.

The only way to be prepared is to get involved.

http://bilconference.com/

http://www.convergence08.org/

http://www.foresight.org/

http://www.opencog.org

http://singinst.org/

http://www.methuselahfoundation.org/

[–]Patriark 11 ポイント12 ポイント * (7子コメント)

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I've actually written my bachelor's thesis in social psychology on this topic. It illuminates the different sides of the arguments in much greater detail, and focusing more on the evolution of norms of prosocial or antisocial behavior and cognition than "gift culture" as such.

You can read the thesis from here, it's about 20 pages packed with empirical research and detailed references. I got an A grade, so I think it has some merit: http://home.online.no/~c-robak/skoleprosjekt/Bachelors-thesis-in-social-psychology.doc

Note that the document is copyrighted by my university, but sharing is caring innit?

Edit: FYI, I repeatedly reference 4chan and Anonymous throughout the text to exemplify my position.

[–]mercerist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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I'm definitely going to read this! Hope it's worth it ;-).

[–]Patriark 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Hehe, hope so myself ;)

The first four pages or so are mostly a review of old research, so those can easily be skimmed through as fast as possible. The rest of the text, however, is serious fuckin business.

[–]berlinbrown 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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"In this view, the “crowd” can be perceived to have a single “mind”, which in later literature often got labeled “collective mind”, or more derogatory “hivemind”; a state of mind where the individuals of the crowd lost sense of themselves as individuals and thus were thought to act uninhibitedly, irregularly and irrationally. The end product of which often was violence. This sort of “deindividuation” later became a unit of analysis by itself, which resulted in a fruitful and defining research paradigm in social psychological studies."

Awesome. Also, do you feel that there is a connection between the real world and the anonymous Internet world. And is it bad. For example, Facebook and other social groups are converging. You have meetup.com. First you build a group online and then you start to meetup together.

I have found this is horribly bad, because now the group is a hive mind, meeting face to face. For example, if you disagree with the group, you are immediately attacked online and in person. (In terms of debate).

[–]Patriark 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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For me, there's no distinction between the "real world" and the Internet. It's definitely connected, because it's the same world, ontologically speaking. But of course, people behave differently when using information communication technologies, than when communicating face to face.

What definitely is happening is that it's getting easier to be connected with other people now, for good and bad, and as such people are getting more and more interconnected. This a two-sided beast, as it's very nice for getting to know new people, getting connected to interest groups despite spatial separation etc, but there's less room for privacy now.

I've already read some people who've argued that the time of privacy is over, we're now entering a time where people have to cope with information about them being publically available to others at all times etc. It's not easy to give clear cut answers.

From my own experience, I consider it mostly a positive trend, as the negative trends can to a large degree be offset by rapidly finding new groups to belong to if one gets exluded from one community. There's certainly room for a lot of subcultures on the Internet, it doesn't seem to move towards one centralized norm, it seems to go towards accentuation of different subculture norms. At least that's my perspective.

Remember that those processes which are supposed to cause the "hive mind" mentality should not be at work when communicating face to face, so one should be able to make people reevaluate judgments they've made when one meets face to face. At least in principle.

Nonetheless, what happens on the internet, and what happens outside is being more and more interconnected. If that's good or bad isn't up to me to decide. I'm very happy for it personally, for the most part at least.

[–]berlinbrown 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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I didn't read all of your thesis. But why do you think there is a hive mind on the Internet. It seems that it would be easier to disagree more widely. But, I do believe a hive-mind exists?

Reddit is a good example. Do you believe there exists an anti-Fox News hive-mind on reddit or pro-Fox News? Obviously anti-Fox News. I wonder why, is it the fault of the popular news network or some kind of hivemind bias?

[–]Patriark 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I'd recommend reading a bit through it, I argue throughout that the term "hivemind" doesn't hold much scientific validity as such, and not even it's antecedent variant, "deindividuation", works well for explaining social behavior under anonymous conditions (I choose to rely on the concept of "depersonalization" in the text, as it refers to strictly socially regulated behavior, as opposed to deregulated behavior as the two previous terms are suggesting").

But the semantics aside, the evidence points towards a trend of higher conformity to local group norms under anonymous conditions, which might be why we see behavior which often gets caricatured as representing a "hive mind" mentality. My view on this is that people are inherently very socially motivated, we seek affirmation of others, by others and want to relate to meaningful social units of sorts. To achieve this, we often rely on snap judgments of other people which is done largely outside of awareness, in which we judge "is this individual in one of my ingroups, or does he/she belong to an outgroup?". Based on the answer to this question, A LOT of further processing is determined, i.e. stereotyping etc, which will end up changing how you behave towards that person entirely. Under anonymous conditions, it's much harder to extract information about other individuals, so essentially we end up looking even harder for individuating information, and stereotype even more. If we judge that someone is an ingroup individual when we're communicating anonymously, people often tend to self-stereotype as well, which means acting in a way which is perceived to be like what the most "standard group member" (a "group prototype") would do. Thus ending up acting in a more conforming way.

It's a bit hard to explain convincingly in short, but it's well verified empirically. I think you'd get a good answer by reading the entire text.

Reddit is a good example, and I used reddit as a core influence when I was trying to verify different models's ecological validity. But if I would talk about the reddit community in relation to Fox News in social psychological terms, I would not say there's a "hive mind". I'd rather say that in the reddit community, there's a clear computer subculture norm, which is based around attitudes like strong intellectualism, high levels of skepticism, strong anti-authoritarian values, high valuations of individuality and personal achievement and a strong preference for political liberalism (in its broad sense, meaning both american style and european style liberalism). Given these attitudes, Fox News is perceived to be representative of an outgroup norm, for a lot of reasons relating to the reddit ingroup norm.

Since there's no room for use of the term "hivemind", I can't really talk about any hivemind bias. But there's definitely ingroup vs outgroup biases at work. Most people often don't process information from a source they perceive to be outgroup at all.

Note that in this case I stereotype the reddit community quite heavily. As all communities, it's more rich and diverse than any description like this can answer for.

[–]scstraus 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (12子コメント)

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Sounds like a thinly veiled argument for intellectual property rights to me.

[–]daramel 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (10子コメント)

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Other than that, it is an interesting argument on the viciousness of hive culture. What do you think of that point?

[–]KennyFulgencio 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

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Well, if unscientific personal impressions are accepted, the hive culture has gone pretty far to convince me that humanity's nature is one of short-sighted self-centered harm to others, and it should be eradicated. Humanity I mean. All of it. But dogs should survive because for the most part they've got good hearts.

[–]scstraus 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

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....He explains to the most hive mind media site he can find after reading the article it suggests to him...

[–]KennyFulgencio 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

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Yes. This is supposed to be some kind of criteria for good heartedness or unselfishness?

[–]scstraus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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Evil selfish prick.

[–]KennyFulgencio 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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Not nearly as bad as many out there, which is what has been so disheartening and disillusioning about immersion in hive culture. But yeah, I certainly wouldn't hold myself up as any counterexample to show that humanity is worth saving.

[–]scstraus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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I'm sticking to my previous comment.

[–]KennyFulgencio 0 ポイント1 ポイント * (0子コメント)

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I wasn't particularly debating it.

[–]scstraus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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If that was the point he was trying to make, he did a lousy job at it. I don't think that the fact that it's changed business models necessarily makes it viscous. I don't think attaching morality values like this to a network of people necessarily makes sense. People do what's possible with the tools they have available to them. I buy a lot more software today than I did 20 years ago, I can tell you that.

[–]DogBotherer[🍰] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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viscous = thick and treacly; vicious = downright nasty.

[–]scstraus 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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You got me there. If only I had spent more than 0 seconds proofreading that comment, I might have caught that.

[–]ST2K 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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The horror!!

[–][deleted] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

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Always struck me as strange how some people will happily tip a bartender a buck for pouring them a drink... but these same people get all choked up with self-righteous rage at the thought of having to pay a buck for a song, even though they enjoy the song far longer than the drink. Or they roll out the argument that the song must be regarded as a free giveaway to promote a hypothetical future concert they may or may not attend. In effect, forcing the artist to loan them the use of the creative content, for possible (though unlikely) future repayment. The question of how the artist is supposed to pay their rent until the time of this future concert goes unanswered.

Ultimately if you refuse to pay anything for creative content, the message you're sending is that you place no value in that content.

[–][deleted] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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It's not the song, it's the DRM. It's also the company selling it. I'm rabidly anti-crApple. I heard a while ago that Amazon was offering DRM-free music downloads, but it's a little late for that now -- I've got everything I want because all the good music stopped happening before the turn of the century.

[–]allenizabeth 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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No shit! I never got that. If I spend weeks and weeks writing a song, why should you have the right to it without paying me? Why single out art as being free? Maybe food and housing and cars - hell, everything should be free.

[–]Baukelien 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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The question of how the artist is supposed to pay their rent until the time of this future concert goes unanswered.

If the government has to step in to make his profession pay the rent maybe it's time to change professions.

[–][deleted] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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The government "steps in" to all professions by providing a means for contracts between employers and employees to be enforced. If your company doesn't pay you, you take them to court. Businesses also expect police protection in return for paying taxes.

[–]Baukelien 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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What you are talking about though is the core function of government, even fundamentalist libertarians would want the government to protect people from muggers, fight fraud etc. What I meant with 'step in' was the government interfering with the free market to protect a specific profession.

[–]liveart 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Tell that to farmers.

[–]CaptainScience[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Jaron Lanier's book "You Are Not a Gadget" explores this idea further.

[–]LaszloK 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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that's one creepy photo

[–]thevoid 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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"Excellent..."

[–]ranautricularia 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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There's a missing ) in there -- arghh.