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[–]Acheros 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (55子コメント)

Well, my first exposure to him was his "that retarded horse" video, and, honestly? I loath that fucking video. I can see his point - that people shouldn't be charged $25 for a worthless mount that arguably looks like crap to begin with. But the way he went about it is not something I can agree with. I do not believe that people should be ostracized or mocked for what they choose to purchase at all, let alone in a video game like he was purposing, even if he was doing so ironically he should be smart enough to understand that his words have power, and that people WILL go along with what he says, even if he does say those things ironically - the amount of people parroting that video as if it was gospel is proof enough of that.

But, beyond that, I just disagree with many of his statements on gaming, and what is the "bare minimum", I don't believe that a game needs to run at 60FPS to be considered "good", nor do I consider games that run at lower than 1080P to be substandard. Frankly, I don't very much care for what resolution the game is in as long as its fun.

I've also noticed a slight tendency he has to speak for people and generalize, I believe in the past he's said things like "anyone who says they don't notice a difference between 30 and 60 FPS is a liar" or some shit like that, which is also something I can't get behind and also something I disagree with, I hardly notice the difference in FPS unless it drops below 20 or so and the game is quite literally a slideshow. Even in videos demonstrating the two side by side I hardly see a difference.

[–]Deathcrow 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (45子コメント)

Interesting.

Well, my first exposure to him was his "that retarded horse" video, and, honestly? I loath that fucking video. I can see his point - that people shouldn't be charged $25 for a worthless mount that arguably looks like crap to begin with. But the way he went about it is not something I can agree with. I do not believe that people should be ostracized or mocked for what they choose to purchase at all, let alone in a video game like he was purposing, even if he was doing so ironically he should be smart enough to understand that his words have power, and that people WILL go along with what he says, even if he does say those things ironically - the amount of people parroting that video as if it was gospel is proof enough of that.

I would counter that as a consumer you have some kind of responsibility. You get what you deserve. If people are retarded enough to buy shit like a 25$ armored horse DLC, publishers will continue to make this kind of shit. I completely agree with his notion to ridicule people who are actively harming our hobby by buying shit products.

But, beyond that, I just disagree with many of his statements on gaming, and what is the "bare minimum", I don't believe that a game needs to run at 60FPS to be considered "good", nor do I consider games that run at lower than 1080P to be substandard. Frankly, I don't very much care for what resolution the game is in as long as its fun.

Yes, a PC version of a game should support 1080p and 60fps at least. It is the bare minimum. I have been playing games in higher resolution on PC more than 10 years ago compared to what they are running at on consoles these days. It's ridiculous to settle for 720p in 2014. Of course you can play on lower settings if you have an economy PC build and are low on cash. People should have the option to crank their settings to the max. If they can't it's a shit PC port.

I've also noticed a slight tendency he has to speak for people and generalize, I believe in the past he's said things like "anyone who says they don't notice a difference between 30 and 60 FPS is a liar" or some shit like that, which is also something I can't get behind and also something I disagree with, I hardly notice the difference in FPS unless it drops below 20 or so and the game is quite literally a slideshow. Even in videos demonstrating the two side by side I hardly see a difference.

He's right tough. If you can't see the difference between 30 and 60 fps you are a liar (or severely visually handicapped). This is not subjective it all:

http://www.30vs60fps.com/

Seeing it in direct comparison 30fps is so choppy it isn't even funny when people claim that there's no difference.

[–]TheTroglodite 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That website is brilliant

[–]vikeyev 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The mirrors edge video is the best one for noticing the difference. Some people still don't notice it at first, so if they have trouble send them to http://www.testufo.com.

You can notice the difference a lot more.

[–]Acheros 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (29子コメント)

I would counter that as a consumer you have some kind of responsibility. You get what you deserve. If people are retarded enough to buy shit like a 25$ armored horse DLC, publishers will continue to make this kind of shit. I completely agree with his notion to ridicule people who are actively harming our hobby by buying shit products.

As a consumer, the only responsibility you have is to yourself. Support the things you like, and don't support the things you don't. That's how the free market works. Yes, this includes things I don't like as well as things you don't like. You have no responsibility to buy, or not buy things to support how other people believe the market should be - I hate the idea of buying cosmetic items with real cash, I've never bought a single mount like that, and I refuse too. Beyond thinking most of them look like crap, it's just not something I want to support. But no one else is obligated to not buy the mount if they want it just because I feel that way, and the reverse is also true, I'm not obligated to buy anything because other people want that model to continue. and mocking someone for what they choose to purchase is immature and outright pathetic.

If you can't see the difference between 30 and 60 fps you are a liar (or severely visually handicapped)

No, and no. I don't see much of a difference at all, not enough to make the game "unplayable", or even enough to really tell which is 30 and which is 60 without the button and number in the corner.

But, thanks for calling me a liar because you can't handle people disagreeing with you.

[–]BlueLightP 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (11子コメント)

No, and no. I don't see much of a difference at all, not enough to make the game "unplayable", or even enough to really tell which is 30 and which is 60 without the button and number in the corner.

But, thanks for calling me a liar because you can't handle people disagreeing with you.

Strangely enough 30 does make it unplayable enough for people with simulation sickness (I swear to god it's a real thing and that's it's name).

For me 60 is a noticeable change. Animations and controls are just smoother and more polished looking. I know it sounds like i'm believing in a hype word but in instances were i went "Ah! 30 to 60 wont make a big change" i found my self returning to 60 FPS.

Generally the hardware for PC can push 60 FPS at high details no trouble considering what they got to run on are consoles which extremely under powered. that being said if you really didn't see a difference with 60 FPS, that just means you can cram that much more detail into the game.

[–]Acheros -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I have no problem with people who want 60FPS and refuse to play anything else, they're free to play and support whatever the fuck they want. But I don't feel as if games should be bashed or called "lesser" for that reason alone. I play on both console and PC - I prefer console, but whatever. and there is no game I've ever played on PC, and then played on console that I've noticed a difference that actually mattered.

Yes, the graphics are arguably better, and if you're a graphics whore, then more power to you. But those things just don't matter to me. and I've yet to play a game on PC and then on console that in anyway felt unresponsive.

[–]cordlc 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Don't confuse us with being graphics whores, 60fps isn't simply a "graphics" problem. It affects the entire game. Take fighting games for instance, the difference in gameplay between 30fps and 60fps is absolutely massive.

Resolution / graphic differences aren't the same. 720p, 1080p, whatever, more pixels don't make much of a difference (I couldn't care less about pixel count, honestly). In a twitch-based game with lots of motion, the same cannot be said with fps. Cut the pixels in half, and it's just a bit less pleasant to look at, whereas if you cut the fps in half you can get something unresponsive/unplayable.

[–]Acheros -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (5子コメント)

...Seems I'll be repeating myself a lot today....

I have not, at all, noticed a difference between 30 and 60. this includes playing a lot of first and third person shooters. I prefer third person myself, but thats for reasons not related to frame rate or graphics - I just like the camera view better, it works for me.

the only difference I HAVE seen between playing games on a console and PC are the graphics - that is where the comment on graphics come from.

Playing tomb raider on PC, and then loading it up on PS3? I didn't notice a difference in frame rate, I didn't feel like the PS3 version was less responsive. I didn't feel like the PC version was "superior".

INB4 I get called a liar again.

[–]cordlc 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'm aware you don't seem to notice the difference between 30/60fps. I'm simply explaining that the fps problem isn't a matter of graphical fidelity. Just because I care about games with 60fps, doesn't mean I'm a graphics whore like you implied.

Think of it this way, could you imagine playing any of your games in 15fps? Many of them would be nearly unplayable, or at least heavily impaired. Now imagine someone claiming they can't tell the difference between 15fps and 30fps - that's basically what all of this feels like, from our (pro-60fps) perspective.

The bare minimum fps we'd find acceptable may differ among us, but the fact is, a game's choppiness does affect the gameplay. Because if someone can tell the difference, then it's an undeniable fact that they cannot react to something in 30fps as quickly as 60fps. The latter is giving them twice as much information in the same amount of time, and you can only react to the information you're given (and while 1/60th of a second may seem like a tiny difference, see fighting games for an example of its importance)

[–]Acheros [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

I'm simply explaining that the fps problem isn't a matter of graphical fidelity

and I'm stating, as clearly as I can, that my comment about graphic differences is only marginally connected to the FPS argument.

People always make the argument of consoles vs PC because PC has better framerate and graphics, and as such, it's the metric I use, I don't even know if there is a way to artificially lower the FPS of a PC game to 30 to test it, as my rig is..while not top shelf, it's not a POS either and can frequently run games at 60+ on high or ultra settings, as such, my other way to measure this is switching from PC to console.

and the ONLY difference I see, is NOT fps, but just graphics. If there is a difference between FPS of tomb raider on PS3 and PC? I don't see it. every thing I've seen that is supposed to show the difference, I don't notice it.

are we clear now? cause I don't get how this is hard to understand.

[–]cordlc [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

The only reason I posted is because of this:

Yes, the graphics are arguably better, and if you're a graphics whore, then more power to you. But those things just don't matter to me. and I've yet to play a game on PC and then on console that in anyway felt unresponsive.

It seemed like you were either not acknowledging that a problem exists for us, or that we're graphics whores. I just wanted to clarify the latter, as I'm the furthest thing from a graphics whore (not that there's anything wrong with one...).

But again, if you can imagine a world where consoles played at 15fps, while PC's played at 30fps+, maybe you'd understand why some people feel the way they do (calling the stuff inferior and whatnot). If that doesn't work, bring the fps lower, down to 10, or lower if you must. There's a point at which a game's framerate feels less than adequate for all of us, and 30 is too low for some.

edit: Wanted to note that Nintendo keeps most of their games running at 60fps, which I'm thankful for! It's about the feel of the game more than the look.

[–]RavenscroftRaven 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

"they're free to play" "free to play"

THAT'S ONE OF MY TRIGGERS! /s

[–]Acheros 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

HAH.

[–]BlueLightP 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Well i think think this is about as far as this argument can go. I would like to say 'unresponsive' is the wrong word to use in this context. Think of 30 FPS as responsive and 60 FPS as responsive x2 in the minds of people who care about 60 FPS.

If a game is locked to 30 FPS on computer, then yes it is a lesser game. Quite frankly all games for the "Next generation consoles" should be able to run 1080P, 60 FPS no problem. If not then we can only hope this console generation is short lived. This has less to do with games themselves, but the hardware.

[–]Deathcrow 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (5子コメント)

and mocking someone for what they choose to purchase is immature and outright pathetic.

I disagree. You don't live in a void. Individualism is fine to a point: Yes, you can buy whatever you want and no one is going to stop you from doing so; don't make me out as some kind of authoritarian boogyman. If you buy without having any kind of sense for the consequences of your purchase you deserve to be ridiculed (and this doesn't even apply to video games only). I genuinely believe that we would live in a much better world if people were more aware of the consequences of their purchasing decisions in a capitalist system. Saying that this is just your one individualistic purchase decision is just as wrong as saying that voting doesn't matter because it's just your one vote.

I don't see much of a difference at all

So you do see some kind of difference, though? Good enough for me, didn't call you a liar. Of course for some people this is more important thatn for others, that's fine. Don't claim that it isn't an issue though.

[–]seroevo 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I genuinely believe that we would live in a much better world if people were more aware of the consequences of their purchasing decisions in a capitalist system. Saying that this is just your one individualistic purchase decision is just as wrong as saying that voting doesn't matter because it's just your one vote.

And your view on that is just as wrong as saying someone's vote in an election is wrong because they didn't vote who you support, or voted for someone you vehemently are against. You're still applying your own entirely subjective viewpoint of how people should spend their money onto other people. I guarantee I could probably find some stuff in your house that I'd think were a total waste of money, just as much of a waste as some horse DLC.

I mean that could be said of probably anyone going into anyone else's home. Whether it's some overly expensive item of furniture, jewelry, memorabilia of some kind, or a certain car or certain PC set up, I'm sure there are easy examples where people spend hundreds if not thousands beyond the practicality or objective worth of something, just because they wanted it.

So when it comes to DLC and gaming purchaes in general, as long as someone isn't buying some $25 DLC in lieu of real world responsibilities like bills or children or home maintenance or whatever, then have at it.

[–]mattinthecrown 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Watch TB's Call of Duty video (skip ahead to game play). Watch a couple of minutes, then switch to 1080 or 720 60 fps mode. The difference is huge.

[–]Acheros -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Honestly? I don't think youtube is a very good metric to use because of how the videos are processed. Yes, on youtube 720 and 1080 makes a difference, but again, I've never played...say...tomb raider on PC, and then played it on PS3 and found it "unplayable" or less responsive, or anything.

I'm fine with admitting that I might be an outlier, I'm fine with that. What I'm not fine with is people calling me a liar because of it to fit their agenda.

[–]mattinthecrown 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

It's a fine metric. What you can see is how much smoother and clearer the gameplay is. In a game like CoD, that makes a huge difference. You may not care, but to say you cannot tell a difference is simply dishonest. There's a clear difference.

[–]Acheros 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

but to say you cannot tell a difference is simply dishonest.

I couldn't tell a difference in the 30vs60fps site...

I can see a difference in graphics switching from 1080 to 720, but thats it. and the question then becomes do graphics matter?

and saying I'm being "dishonest" because you cannot accept that you're wrong is, in of itself, dishonest.

[–]mattinthecrown -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I couldn't tell a difference in the 30vs60fps site...

See? Now you're just lying. You've already said you could. I get that you don't want to feel bad for having an inferior gaming experience, but being dishonest about it is uncalled for, and you should expect to get called out for that.

[–]Acheros 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yea, I'm done here. I'm not going to be called a liar and have words put in my mouth by some intellectually dishonest douche bag who can't handle that they're wrong.

I did not say I could see a difference, I said I "couldn't see much of a difference", which, I could see how you mistake that for meaning I could see even a slight difference so let me be completely clear here. I DID NOT SEE A DIFFERENCE AT ALL. Understood?

Now fuck off.

[–]Locrin 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

You might want to get your eyes checked. This is not an insult. I'm being dead serious.

[–]xternal7 [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

I think we have a console peasant here.

or even enough to really tell which is 30 and which is 60 without the button and number in the corner.

Any day. I'll tell the difference any day. Especially if I'm actually playing. Whether game's unplayable sub-60 is a different question and depends on genre.

I can see and feel the difference between 30 and 40 (Borderlands and Just Cause 2), let alone between 30 and 60.

[–]Acheros [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

I think we have a console peasant here.

oh shut the fuck up. No one wants to deal with this bullshit here. Either argue the points or get bent.

Any day. I'll tell the difference any day. Especially if I'm actually playing.

and thats YOU. Unlike you and others, I'm not trying to tell you you're wrong about what YOU see. Do you understand that or no?

[–]jonnywoh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting, on mobile it says mobile browsers have a 30fps cap but when I switch to desktop mode, it works just fine, and yes, it actually is 60fps.

[–]rbace -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

i can tell a difference, but sometimes i prefer 30. 60 hurts my eyes for some reason.

[–]JonassMkII 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

30vs60

30 looks choppy compared to 60, if you can do a side by side comparison. To some, this is a major issue. To others, they don't pay enough attention to notice. To yet another set of others, they notice and don't particularly care. Make of it what you wish. The most important part of the 30vs60 debate however, is the extra 16.7ms input lag. Small, barely noticeable, but there nonetheless. In any sort of twitch game, FPS is a skill, just like latency (except you want higher instead of lower). That's what makes it a big deal.

Of course, if you're playing something where input lag isn't likely to get you killed despite the fact that you KNOW you fired first, then it's not exactly that important. To each their own, but overall, it's kind of a big deal and a sad pathetic joke that consoles don't manage to hit 60 consistently.

[–]xternal7 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

But, beyond that, I just disagree with many of his statements on gaming, and what is the "bare minimum", I don't believe that a game needs to run at 60FPS to be considered "good", nor do I consider games that run at lower than 1080P to be substandard. Frankly, I don't very much care for what resolution the game is in as long as its fun.

... Except that if game doesn't run 60 fps on his hardware, then it's actually shit. Keep in mind his hardware is pretty much top tier. As far as resolution goes — anything that doesn't render at 1080p is pretty much sub-standard nowdays. Especially when, for some reason, you can aim your aim much more accurately on native res than on anything less than.

[–]xenar01 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah well games aren't fun when they control like shit. It's not just about the actual fps, but the input lag you get with sub-60fps and if you still say you can't see or feel the difference, I'm going to have to call bullshit, or you're not playing the right games to see the difference. In a turn-based RPG, grand strategy, visual novel or a city builder, it's not really going to matter. But in a fast-paced shooter (or probably any shooter with precision in mind), like Quake III Arena, UT, or Tribes, try them locked at 30fps and tell me if it doesn't feel like complete ass.

[–]Acheros 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Here's a short list of some of the games I play, and you can tell me if I'm playing the 'wrong' games. Keep in mind this is a random sample from my entire collection.

pokemon x/y(3ds)

the last of us remastered(PS4)

infamous: second son(PS4)

halo master chief collection(XB1)

sunset overdrive(XB1)

the evil within(PS4)

NBA 2K 14(PS4) - not super into sports games, but I felt like something different

tomb raider(PS3, PC)

bioshock 1-3(PS3, PC)

borderlands 1-2(PS3, PC)

dead space 1-3(PS3, have the first on PC)

gears of war 1-judgement(360)

castle crashers(PC)

rogue legacy(PC)

smite(PC)

hearthstone(PC)

rocksmith(PS3)

rocksmith 2014(PC)

mario kart(wii U)

monster loves you(PC)

but, of course, this is just a random sample. I could, if you'd like, go through and list my entire library and what systems I play them on. But go ahead and call bullshit, I'm used to people calling me a liar because they can't handle being even the tiniest bit wrong.

[–]tigrn914 [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

Calm down. The difference between 30 and 60 fps is objective. You can be fine with 30 fps and we won't fault you for that. Maybe look at you funny but not much else. However there IS a difference whether you think so or not and the idea of being wrong about 60 fps is just impossible.

Please understand why so many people jumped on you for these words. They are just your subjective opinion on an objective matter and I for one am one of those people that will call you out for it.

[–]Acheros [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

Calm down.

I've remained calm until people started outright attacking me or calling me I liar. I've remained neutral through this entire thing, and have only ever expressed my opinion while others are making assumptions and accusations. Do not tell me to calm down when I am very much calm.

They are just your subjective opinion on an objective matter

rather I can notice a difference or not is NOT subjective. and yet here we have people trying to TELL ME what I can or cannot see.

and you're acting like somehow this is a problem with me? really?

[–]dinklebob -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Sorry, but if I know you've pre-ordered a AAA title I'm going to ridicule you for your own good. If you spent $25 on horse armor you deserve the same.

If you tell publishers that a large portion of their consumer base is drinking their Kool Aid, they will keep going to see how much they can get away with. This hurts me too. I'm looking out for myself by policing your dumb horse armor choices.

never go full peasant!

[–]Acheros 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

for your own good

you don't get to decide that. Grow up.

[–]ineedanacct 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

To many people, $25 just isn't a lot. The whole POINT to cash shop items is that the price makes them somewhat rare in the game world and you look somewhat unique.