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DiscussionStephen Colbert mentioned Dark Souls tonight! (self.darksouls)

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[–]Gigadweeb 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (75子コメント)

Didn't he put Anita on his show?

[–]semperverus 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (44子コメント)

Are we talking Sarkeesian? I'd be interested to know this too.

[–]soulreaverdan[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (43子コメント)

Yeah. It was a pretty tame interview considering everything that goes on around her.

[–]AttackTheMoon 35 ポイント36 ポイント  (40子コメント)

Her videos are extremely tame, but people still make her out to be some sort of she devil who wishes the death of all games. I don't get it, if people want games to be an art form they should be able to handle criticism on more than a technical level.

[–]apathy_syndrome 16 ポイント17 ポイント  (1子コメント)

People's biggest problem with her I think is that she doesn't know or care about games, she just picked a controversial topic to talk about and used it to kickstart her career and make herself famous (which worked).

[–]Muteatrocity 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The real issue is that there is absolutely no reason to think she's trying to start a discussion. She shuts down, ignores, and refuses to acknowledge all criticism that is calm and rational and strawmans her legitimate criticism in with the nastiness, as if any of the sane people have any control over or even contact with the crazies.

[–]Chili_Maggot 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (28子コメント)

We can handle criticism. She likes to paint with broad brushes and generally handle herself in a disingenuous manner.

[–]RandomStrategy 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (12子コメント)

So....you're saying that you don't like being stereotyped...and dismissed in general?

......

.....

Do you not see the irony in this?

[–]Satsumomo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

Nobody likes that, but I feel she is making a much bigger deal out of it, than it really is. I find that she is blaming gaming/gamers, for what should be attributed to general social assholery.

I do not like that Quinn has made thousands of bucks because she got angry emails from some kids, versus casters who have been SWATTED. That shit is legitimately more dangerous.

[–]RandomStrategy 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (10子コメント)

When someone threatens a mass shooting and bombings on the scale of the one in Quebec, that shit is just as dangerous. Especially when the school outright said, "Yeah, we know they are threatening it, but we'll still allow people to open carry to the event."

I would ask that you specify what she is making a 'bigger deal' out of, the death threats/harassment, or her videos about tropes of women in video games? My response will be different for either one, since they're both completely separate in severity.

[–]Satsumomo 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

About the tropes, because I do agree that idiots making death threats against her is legitimately worrying and stupid at the same time.

What I'm trying to say is that famous people get death threats all the time, or bullied people in general. From what I've seen from her, she makes it seem that all gamers are irrational and unstable people that want to kill her and all women, just for being women.

[–]RandomStrategy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'll address the tropes first.

I've been a gamer since I was three, maybe younger, but the first evidence I have of gaming is from my third birthday when I got TMNT for NES. Yes, I'm old. I've been gaming for at least 27 years now, and I found her videos very interesting.

As I get older playing games, I find myself moving away from more competitive games and leaning toward more story-oriented ones (maybe it's the years of D&D, and the GM in me that appreciates story more).

At the GDC this year, Sarkeesian won an award for her video series. If you didn't know, or didn't watch the video, Neil Druckmann (of The Last of Us) made a very good point about how she is identifying tropes that may not have been noticed or considered by the writers and developers, and that her work had influenced them in a way to help write better characters, better stories, and more interesting games. How can that not be better? Of her videos, there are some things I agree with, some I don't, but I value those videos, because it's a perspective that no one else has brought to the table as of yet.

I want better games. More interesting mechanics and more interesting gameplay, but I also want more interesting characters, and more enthralling stories.

As for the public figure situation, let's take a look at Scarlett Johansson, or even better, Jennifer Lawrence. She's a public figure, and has had her private photos (of course, I'm talking about the nudes) stolen from her iCloud account. If you haven't seen anything about it lately, she claimed (I'm paraphrasing, somewhat) that anyone who even viewed the photos are rapists. I think that's a little strong of words, and in all honesty, I don't condone anyone who looked at the photos, because we're all human. Then again, look at what happened with the subreddit here about the photos.

Here is an interesting article about with the numbers on who and how many got harassing tweets about all this. Women who are in this mess seemed to get several times more harassing or threatening tweets than men, especially those in the game journalism field, which is what this movement is supposed to be about.

http://groupthink.jezebel.com/gamergates-claim-of-being-about-ethics-in-gaming-journ-1650781847?utm_campaign=socialflow_jezebel_facebook&utm_source=jezebel_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Okay, I'm almost done, and I welcome more discussion about this, because understanding and learning (from both sides) doesn't come from yelling at each other on twitter, or being angry and caps locking cool your way to victory. It comes from discussion about these things and trying to see it from the other point of view.

P.S.: As long as I have been a gamer, with the exception of EGM perhaps, I've never, ever seen ethics in game journalism. Hell, Nintendo Power was nothing but an advertising platform for Nintendo, Playstation Magazine, etc.

Bubsy on the SNES got a 70 something rating. If you haven't played it, it's crap. Also, I pre-ordered Colonial Marines and got burned harder than Velasquez in the fucking tunnel when the grenade went off. Why, you ask? Because ALL reviewers had to sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement to where they couldn't even talk about the game until release day. Where was everyone anger for Gearbox Software? Right, most people are too busy jerking off to the next Borderlands game.

[–]IAMA_BAD_MAN_AMA -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What about when the FBI says that none of the threats made were credible threats? I assume that means the FBI is just another arm of the uhpressive pastry car key?

[–]RandomStrategy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58524406-78/sarkeesian-usu-law-email.html.csp

If the FBI is working with USU to hunt down the person who made the threats, and prosecute them, would you please cite your source from the FBI that the threats are not credible?

[–]AttackTheMoon 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Does that justify death threats though? Even if she wanted all video games dead, would it?

[–]Chili_Maggot 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I never said that. Just that there's more to it than some people being unable to handle criticism.

[–]AttackTheMoon 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But there is an extremely vocal minority who can not handle criticism. And of course there is more than just the inability to handle criticism, but the two are so intertwined that it's hard to think of them as separate right now.

[–]Rhamni 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh please. An extremely tiny minority is behind the threats, just like an extremely tiny minority of the people who hate Thunderfoot are behind the threats and false flaggings that he has received.

[–]Zakkeh 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not limited to her, though. Almost any big personality gets death threats, especially youtubers like Pewdiepie and Totalbiscuit. That's one of the most frustrating things to me, is that youtube has always had death threat idiots but it hasn't been covered until lately? Boogie2988 is an insightful and kind guy and his comment sections are horrific cesspools of insults and threats, but that doesn't warrant any attention apparently.

[–]paluchador 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Do you have example of her handling herself in a disingenuous manner?

[–]Rhamni 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Here you go.

Downvoted for providing exactly what was asked for?

[–]paluchador 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not by me. I got down voted for asking for supporting evidence and trying to be more educated on the topic. Sensitive issue with intolerance on both sides. Guess it's to be expected, unfortunately.

[–]paluchador 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Thanks, I'll check that out in a bit.

[–]paluchador -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not done watching yet, going through in between work, but so far this doesn't seem disingenuous to me. It strikes me as two sides having trouble communicating.

In the Watch Dogs example, the video creator is focusing on the fact that breaking up a sex ring is a noble cause. Sarkeesian's point wasn't about the ethics around the in-game scenario, it's that the game has a lack of women who are anything more than victims or window-dressing.

The Hitman seems to have more weight. I think her point about women as victims still applies here, but the point of incentivizing the of murdering them or what that's meant to do for player doesn't hold water. I haven't watched her video, so I don't know if the original context changes that at all.

In either case, I haven't played either of those two games, so I could be off about the portrayal of women in those specific cases.

[–]labcoat_samurai 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I completely agree about Watch Dogs. You don't need a well lit stage populated with topless women to have a mission about breaking up a sex trafficking ring. I'm not saying it's inherently an awful thing that it exists, but Anita's point is that the mission exists at least partially to titillate male viewers with female sexual objects. It's certainly not the case that the only point of the mission is to condemn the evils of sex trafficking. If that were the point, the women would be given detailed characterizations so you'd relate to them and care about what happens to them.

The Hitman one, again, as you say, is a much fairer criticism. She twists the facts a bit to make a point sometimes, which is why I don't just trust her videos as presented.

She did something similar when she cited Angel from Borderlands 2 in her Damsel in Distress/Women in Refrigerators video, but neglected to point out that Angel engineers the events herself, giving her the agency, and making the player only a tool of the plot. Additionally, there's a prominent male character who fills both of those roles in the game as well, but this is also neglected.

Overall, these tropes apply far more often to portrayals of female characters, but I don't think she should use games with balanced portrayals in her examples. She shouldn't have to, provided her thesis is correct, and I think it largely is.

[–]VladimirPutinYouOn 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I mean, I'm ambivalent toward Sarkeesian, but she did use footage of games that she didn't record and didn't cite her sources for the footage. If I recall correctly, she used other you tuber's Let's Plays for her footage.

So some people called that theft. I just think she needed to apologize and start asking for the footage, but hey, some people thought death threats were also fair game.

[–]Khiva 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So some people called that theft.

And yet when the subject turns to pirating games, suddenly everyone and their mother comes crawling out of the woodwork to explain to you how it's just harmless "copyright infringement" and how it's really not a big deal at all and there's no reason to be upset.

[–]RandomStrategy 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fair Use in copyright law, under parody and criticism.

[–]VladimirPutinYouOn 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not illegal, it's just kinda rude (in my opinion; I don't mind her work one bit). Weird Al Yankovic only publishes parodies that he gets consent for from the original artist. It's a moral code of his, and some people decried Sarkeesian for her shady behavior.

I'm not one of those people. This is just what I've witnessed.

[–]itsjh 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Because she doesn't give a fuck about video games. She does it for money.

[–]DylanTheVillyn 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's because her criticisms are imagined in her head. A lot of games have faults that are present in the way characters have their story told or in the players motivations, but she hasn't mentioned them, she would rather invent new problems than discuss real ones.

[–]Christian_Kong -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

My problem with AS is that she is a publicist by trade and her number 1 product is herself. She doesnt give a shit about games or feminism, but she loves money. She loves publicity. She loves death threats that make her seem like a martyr for a cause she doesnt care about. She gets speaking gigs, idiots throw money at her all under the guise of a SJW.

As far as her criticisms about gaming she says things that are obvious(the damsel in distress is a stale concept, ect) but then she goes off the deep end saying games actively make a point to make gamers hate/want to hurt women. That video gaming is a boys club that hates women and fears that women will play games. Its all bullshit, she knows it and she is laughing to the bank.

[–]digikun -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wouldn't exactly call that an interview, more like an exercise in question-dodging.

[–]PixelDrake 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (29子コメント)

Yep, this was in the lead up to that interview.

Not great quality but you can watch all of it here.

[–]TheDark1105 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (28子コメント)

I've been purposely avoiding reading or watching anything related to this "gamergate" shit... but I did watch this because Steven Colbert.

I have never seen any kind of hostility towards female developers that male developers haven't also received. It's the unfortunate truth that mostly young people play games and as such the loudest voices are the voices of the immature. I also heavily suspect 4chan is directly fueling this nonsensical fire for fun, similar to what they have been/are doing to feminists on Tumblr.

Meh, maybe the Dark Souls reddit isn't the best place for this but I wanted to vent a bit.

[–]Muteatrocity 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Bingo. The whole thing is an overblown 4chan raid, conflated with the entirety of gamers by the victims and their supporters.

Shitty part is that it cannot even be said that the harassers there don't even represent the majority of them. A charity for helping women get their ideas turned into games raised a huge amount of money on 4chan just after.

[–]rxninjaThat guy who makes stuff: spriteborne.etsy -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You must be referring to TFYC, who have been just as shitty as anyone else in this.

[–]Muteatrocity 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just read through their twitter. Not seeing any nastiness at all.

Edit: more research yields that the only "nastiness" they took part in was the same "guilt by association" that all people who levied criticism calmly got.

[–]rxninjaThat guy who makes stuff: spriteborne.etsy 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (23子コメント)

I have never seen any kind of hostility towards female developers that male developers haven't also received.

What male speakers have you seen had to cancel shows because of graphic death threats (and unwillingness of the speaking location to prevent openly carried weapons from being at the event)?

What male developers do you know of who've received rape threats for talking about inclusion in games?

Do you know of any male developers who've been driven out of their home by threats of violence that included their exact home address?

Men and women both get harassed, but women get it FAR worse than men. If you're not seeing that, you're just not paying close enough attention.

[–]TheDark1105 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

you're just not paying close enough attention

Um.

I've been purposely avoiding reading or watching anything related to this "gamergate" shit

Yeah. I don't see any real examples of it in my day to day so you're right I guess, I'm probably not paying close enough attention.

[–]Gzalzi -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Most people don't cancel their shows or get driven out of their homes because of graphic death threats - they just go on with life because that's par for the course if you're a controversial figure.

[–]WinterAyars 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think that's par for the course though. That is kind of the point.

[–]XxvikingbloodxX -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Do you have any specific examples of this conduct towards females game developers or are you just spouting off some white knight dribble?

[–]Occulence 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Anita Sarkeesian Felicia Day Briana Wu Zoe Quinn.

The latter two are female game developers.

Not to mention all the rampant sexism and glass ceiling related stuff that happens in regular corporate America also happens in the video game industry as well.

[–]ProNewbie -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (13子コメント)

You can't call Zoe Quinn a game developer. She basically made a series of webpages that are actually an insulting and misinformed representation of depression. I don't want to rant too much more on that. But I manage a SharePoint page, does that make me a game developer? No, so yeah she's not a game developer.

[–]Occulence 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

So text based games aren't games? Stop trying to marginalize her voice. It's that exact kind of rhetoric that's going to be left in the dust as gaming continues to become inclusive. People that play Arma III, or Call of Duty, or god forbid Candy Crush are all gamers. That's the kind of inclusion that needs to be strived for so people aren't marginalized.

The video game journalism industry was cool with reporting on her game, and gamers bought it. That kind of creativity should still be allowed. Marginalizing voices is what leads to people thinking their ludicrous misogynist viewpoints are justified and leads to the extremist rhetoric that some of the splinter groups within the gamergate movement is propagating.

[–]ProNewbie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (10子コメント)

I'm sorry but I don't find it to be a game. Also as someone who has dealt with depression I find her singular, this is what depression is viewpoint insulting. Everybody who has suffered from it deals with it differently and it's horrible and affects people differently. So maybe that's why I rage a little bit harder about her "game". If it had been a guy that made it and all the same crap surrounding it had happened I'd feel the same way. So fuck you and your fucking classifications and trying to make me seem like I'm a sexist or misogynistic pig, people are allowed to not like a shit game and not be a misogynist. Pull your head out of it.

Edit: I want gaming to become inclusive and I'm all for it. What I'm not all for is someone butchering and making an insulting misrepresentation of an illness I've personally dealt with. I'm also not for some random on the Internet jumping to the conclusion based off one comment that I'm a misogynistic asshole when I'm not. News flash everyone who doesn't agree with a female or doesn't like something made by a female isn't a misogynist. Stop jumping on that bandwagon.

[–]RandomStrategy 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I'd like to know what your definition of 'game' is.

I'm glad you're doing better, hopefully, with your depression, but when making a game like hers, you can't depict every possible way. In fact, here's from the first page of the game:

t goes without saying that because of the very nature of depression, it is experienced differently by every person who suffers from it. We aren't trying to say that this is the "best" or "most accurate" representation, merely that this is an amalgamation of the experiences of the developers and several people close to them. Many of the following encounters deal with issues such as therapy, medication, handling a love life, and reaching out to support networks. In reality, less than half of depression sufferers actually seek treatment, for reasons such as lack of money, perceived personal failing, or public stigma. These things were included in order to touch upon as broad a range as possible, since all these elements can be very important to sufferers of depression, though they will likely not be the experiences of most sufferers.

It's very clearly stated that it's just one perspective of depression, and that everyone experiences it differently.

I've played plenty of browser based text games, the most memorable was Starcraft on netnexus. Yeah, that's fucking old. Same web based style as Depression Quest, still a game.

[–]Occulence 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Just because you don't find it to be a game doesn't mean it's not. You still shouldn't marginalize someone's creative expression. Hell, even if she completely mishandles depression doesn't mean she's not a game developer. I deal with depression as well so I'll play the game sometime and see how I feel.

I understand that you personally might not be sexist, but that doesn't mean the overall actions that sparked off Gamergate are excused. The rampant focus on Zoe Quinn, her sexuality, and other aspects instead of the focus on the journalist she was involved with, and the lauding of her ex making their break up a public thing completely indicates the sexism and misogyny behind the movement.

The phone hacking, information spreading, specifically done TO Quinn, the only female involved in the scandal, reeks of misogyny, and justifies further action done by other minority, men's right activist communities, because they see it and evaluate it was something appropriate. They KNOW they have a movement behind them. So now they operate under the banner of Gamergate and poison it's overall rhetoric and the movement, specifically, isn't doing much to push those viewpoints out of belief.

[–]XxvikingbloodxX 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I agree and love everything you're saying. As a fellow depression sufferer there is no "this is what depression is" it affects everybody in different ways and you can't tell people how it affects them. On the other point candy crush is a plague on the gmaing industry and brought about new policies in pay-to-win and cutting content from the finished product for "future dlc"

[–]rxninjaThat guy who makes stuff: spriteborne.etsy -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was going to respond with specific examples, but instead I'll link you to this comic so that you can better understand what you're doing right now.

[–]RandomStrategy 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I've been purposely avoiding it for a long time, but when I found out the 'movement' was about 'game journalism intergrity', and that's when I lost it.