あなたは単独のコメントのスレッドを見ています。

残りのコメントをみる →

[–]so_srs -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (42子コメント)

Monsanto is one of the closest things we've yet developed to evil incarnate. It needs to be destroyed, with violence if necessary. Unfortunately, Monsanto has been very effectively equated with GMOs by both defenders of Monsanto and opponents of GMOs.

Genetically modifying plants is almost an unalloyed good. Genetically modified crops are the only way we're going to continue to effectively feed a growing world population. Genetically modified crops are the only way average people even in developed countries are going to continue to have access to many crops that are threatened by disease, including most citrus fruits and bananas. Last I read, US orange growers are already losing 30% of their annual crop to disease and the only way commercial orange growing does not get 100% wiped out is with a genetically modified orange. Traditional hybridization takes decades.

Genetically modified crops need to be controlled by publicly funded science, for the public good. It's when we allow private corporations monopoly on genetic modifications that evil occurs.

[–]fuckwithmeyouknowigi[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (40子コメント)

This is something I'm very interested in. I always hear about Monsanto and how bad they are, but I haven't seen any convincing arguments for why they are evil. Could you elaborate more on your point?

Genetically modified crops need to be controlled by publicly funded science, for the public good. It's when we allow private corporations monopoly on genetic modifications that evil occurs.

I definitely agree though that we should have increased public funding in this area. Royalty-free GM crops could be a real benefit to smallholder farmers in many countries.

[–]so_srs -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (35子コメント)

By way of patent, Monsanto claims ownership of all genetically modified seeds that contain the genes they inserted. Regardless of origin, even when they allow them to spread on the wind out of the backs of trucks or neighboring fields and contaminate innocent people's fields. They also claim dominion over any descendant seeds that have their patented gene.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/agricultural-giant-battles-small-farmers/

They've sued a substantial number of farming operations into oblivion for the sin of using seeds that spread on the wind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeiser

Genes should not be able to be "owned", and hopefully that's something we can eventually fix in our legal systems.

[–]misandrasaurus 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (9子コメント)

That case you linked is not an example of a farmer being sued for accidental contamination, it even says so in the intro.

The idea that Monsanto has sued farmers for wind blown seeds showing up in their fields is a myth.

[–]BlackHumor 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Schmeiser had seeds accidentally blown into his field that showed GMO traits, then bred for those traits, and was sued for that.

Even though it wasn't completely accidental I can't see any moral defense of suing him. He didn't agree to any contract. If those seeds had naturally mutated that trait he would've been totally in the right to replant them.

[–]abittooshort 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Schmeiser had seeds accidentally blown into his field that showed GMO traits, then bred for those traits, and was sued for that. Even though it wasn't completely accidental I can't see any moral defense of suing him. He didn't agree to any contract. If those seeds had naturally mutated that trait he would've been totally in the right to replant them.

It was scale and intention. If he'd told Monsanto he'd found their canola on his land, they'd have cleaned it up at their cost. Instead, he knew full well what he had, and purposely bred it and spread it across his 1,016 acre farm to the point of being 95-98% pure.

Quite simply, he knowingly used a patented product and put in great effort to exploit it for profit with no intention of paying the royalty.

[–]Soul_Shot 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Schmeiser had seeds accidentally blown into his field that showed GMO traits, then bred for those traits, and was sued for that.

Not true. He harvested RR Canola plants from the ditches of neighboring fields, saved the seeds, and replanted them. At the time of the lawsuit, his field was almost entirely RR Canola (~96%)... there was nothing accidental about it.

[–]BlackHumor 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Even so, so what? He never signed any agreement not to use the seeds in that way. Taking abandoned property is totally legal, so he obtained the seeds legally, and it's obviously legal to plant seeds that you own.

[–]Soul_Shot 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which is why it was illegal. He knew exactly what he was doing when he took the crops from the ditches of the neighbouring fields, and when he got caught selling crops which he had stolen, he lied and claimed they had contaminated his field.

Even if you disagree with the laws behind it, the fact of the matter is that you are not entitled to sell something just because you find it on your property. Finders keepers doesn't really apply in most cases...

[–]so_srs -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I linked to two cases. The first case is unequivocally accidental contamination. Monsanto even dropped the case, because it knew it couldn't win.

Schmeiser is more iffy, but certainly still possible even though the court ruled against him.

If Roundup seeds appear in your fields, Monsanto will sue you if you don't pay them, regardless of how the seeds got there. They don't care.

You also could not independently develop Roundup resistant seeds, since Monsanto has a patent on the gene.

[–]abittooshort 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If Roundup seeds appear in your fields, Monsanto will sue you if you don't pay them, regardless of how the seeds got there. They don't care.

Not true in the least. If RR seeds appear in a farmer's field, Monsanto will clear it away at their cost.

In fact, the Organic Seed Growers and Trade Association took a class action lawsuit against Monsanto because of their fear of exactly this happening to their members. The case was thrown out of court because, with all OSGATA's legal resources and money, they couldn't quote a single incidence of this ever happening ever. Not one.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/02/27/147506542/judge-dismisses-organic-farmers-case-against-monsanto

[–]misandrasaurus 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The first article doesn't provide any examples of a case where someone was sued by Monsanto for accidental contamination.

They do some messed up shit, but there's no support for the argument that suing people for accidental contamination is one of those things.

[–]fuckwithmeyouknowigi[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (16子コメント)

The Schmesier case is the one I was referring to when I said Food Inc. didn't provide an accurate representation of the facts. Percy deliberately selected for the GM crops then replanted his field. The court decided in favor of Monsanto because the evidence showed that they were in the right. That's just my perspective after reviewing the evidence, though.

[–]so_srs -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (15子コメント)

The court ruled against him, but it could have still been accidental contamination. It's also just one case, there are plenty of other cases.

[–]Soul_Shot 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (14子コメント)

The court ruled against him, but it could have still been accidental contamination. It's also just one case, there are plenty of other cases.

No it couldn't... the evidence overwhelmingly proves that the RR Canola found in Schmeiser's field could not have been the result of accidental cross-pollination.

Schmeiser was found guilty by 4 different court decisions, and his own farm hands even testified that he deliberately stole Monsanto's patented seeds.

In the first trial, Schmeiser claimed in 1997 he sprayed Roundup on three acres of his canola field because he was suspicious it might be Roundup tolerant. If his story were true, this would kill any canola plants other than those tolerant to Roundup. After killing more than half his crop, he then harvested the remaining plants that did not die and segregated this seed. The next year (1998) he had this seed treated and used this seed to plant 1,030 acres on his farm.

Why would he harvest seed that he says he didn’t want on his farm and deliberately plant it the following year?

As expressed in the Canadian Supreme Court judgment documents:

Mr. Schmeiser complained that the original plants came onto his land without his intervention. However, he did not at all explain why he sprayed Roundup to isolate the Roundup Ready plants he found on his land; why he then harvested the plants and segregated the seeds, saved them, and kept them for seed; why he planted them; and why, through his husbandry, he ended up with 1,030 acres of Roundup Ready canola which would have cost him $15,000.

Schmeiser didn’t have a few Roundup Ready plants in his field. His fields had mostly Roundup Ready plants in them–far more than could have ever grown there by accident. Again, in the words of the Canadian court judgment:

…tests revealed that 95 to 98 percent of this 1,000 acres of canola crop was made up of Roundup Ready plants. …The trial judge found that “none of the suggested sources [proposed by Schmeiser] could reasonably explain the concentration or extent of Roundup Ready canola of a commercial quality” ultimately present in Schmeiser’s crop.

His farm hands even testified against him:

In late June or early July of 1997, Mr. Schmeiser and his employee Carlyle Moritz hand sprayed Roundup around power poles and in the ditches along the Bruno road where it bordered fields 1, 2, 3 and 4. This was part of his normal weed control practice. Several days after the spraying, he noticed that a large number of canola plants had survived the spraying. To determine why the canola plants had survived the Roundup spraying, Mr. Schmeiser conducted a test in field 2. Using a machine sprayer set to spray 40 feet, he sprayed Roundup on a section of field 2 in a strip along the road. He made two passes, the first weaving between and around the power poles and the second adjacent to the first pass, parallel to the power poles. He testified that by this means he sprayed a good three acres of field 2. According to Mr. Schmeiser's evidence, after some days, approximately 60% of the canola plants sprayed were still alive, growing in clumps that were thickest near the road and thinner as one moved into the field.[23]At harvest time in 1997 Mr. Schmeiser, who was then recovering from a leg injury, instructed Mr. Moritz to swath and combine field 2. Mr. Moritz did so, harvesting the canola in the field as well as the surviving canola along the roadside. The harvested seed was put into the box of a 1962 Ford pickup truck. The box was covered with a tarp and the truck with its tarped load of canola seed was stored in one of Mr. Schmeiser's buildings over the winter.[24]Mr. Schmeiser testified that in the spring of 1998 the seed from the Ford truck was transferred to another truck and taken to the Humboldt Flour Mill for treatment, a normal process to rid the seeds of disease before planting. The treated seed, mixed with untreated seed from his granary ("bin-run seed"), was planted in all or part of each of his nine fields, for a total of 1,030 acres.


What other cases are you referring to?

[–]lazurz 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

In one case, the Organic Seed Growers & Trade Association (OSGATA) filed a lawsuit against Monsanto asking for Monsanto to guarantee that they would never sue over accidental contamination. OSGATA ended up having their case thrown(pdf) out because they were unable to produce a single instance where Monsanto had actually sued someone over accidental contamination. That makes me skeptical about if there are any other valid cases, because a fairly expensive team of lawyers couldn't find one.

[–]Soul_Shot 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In one case, the Organic Seed Growers & Trade Association (OSGATA) filed a lawsuit against Monsanto asking for Monsanto to guarantee that they would never sue over accidental contamination.

Actually they asked for Monsanto to guarantee never to sue farmers for anything, not just accidental cross pollination. What the PPF and OSGATA did was really slimy, and they actually just tried to manufacture a controversy.

The Public Patent Foundation had written a letter to Monsanto basically asking for a blanket immunity for all the plaintiffs against ever being sued for patent infringement, even if they did intentionally engage in infringing activity. Monsanto responded with a statement of its policy, which it had previously published in other venues:

“It has never been, nor will it be[,] Monsanto policy to exercise its patent rights where trace amounts of our patented seeds or traits are present in [a] farmer’s fields as a result of inadvertent means.”

Amazingly, the Public Patent Foundation characterized Monsanto's statement as an implicit threat, and as such the basis for declaratory judgment action.

The court totally rejected this flawed logic, declaring it "objectively unreasonable for plaintiffs to read [the language of Monsanto statement] as a threat." The court also stated that,

"[i]ndeed, plaintiffs’ letter to defendants seems to have been nothing more than an attempt to create a controversy where none exists. This effort to convert a statement that defendants have no intention of bringing suit into grounds for maintaining a case, if accepted, would disincentivize patentees from ever attempting to provide comfort to those whom they do not intend to sue, behavior which should be countenanced and encouraged. In contrast, plaintiffs’ argument is baseless and their tactics not to be tolerated.”

http://holmansbiotechipblog.blogspot.com/2012/03/district-court-sees-through-misleading.html

OSGATA ended up having their case thrown[1] (pdf) out because they were unable to produce a single instance where Monsanto had actually sued someone over accidental contamination

Yes, it was thrown out because:

the judge found that plaintiffs' allegations were "unsubstantiated ... given that not one single plaintiff claims to have been so threatened." The ruling also found that the plaintiffs had "overstate[d] the magnitude of [Monsanto's] patent enforcement." Monsanto brings an average of 13 patent-enforcement lawsuits per year, which, the judge said, "is hardly significant when compared to the number of farms in the United States, approximately two million."

That makes me skeptical about if there are any other valid cases, because a fairly expensive team of lawyers couldn't find one.

As far as I'm aware, there aren't.

The majority of people have been led to believe (by Food Inc and other dishonest sources) that Monsanto bullies thousands/millions of farmers out of their livelihoods, but other than the few publicized ones (Schmeiser et al), I really haven't found anything.

[–]Soul_Shot 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

By way of patent, Monsanto claims ownership of all genetically modified seeds that contain the genes they inserted. Regardless of origin, even when they allow them to spread on the wind out of the backs of trucks or neighboring fields and contaminate innocent people's fields. They also claim dominion over any descendant seeds that have their patented gene.

Companies have been able to patent new varieties of plants since the Plant Patent Act of 1930, so Monsanto patenting their seeds is completely normal.

It's a myth that Monsanto sues farmers for accidental cross-pollination. The OSGATA and PPF tried to sue Monsanto for this (bullying farmers, etc), but their case was thrown out because they couldn't actually demonstrate an instance where Monsanto had unjustly sued a farmer.

the judge found that plaintiffs' allegations were "unsubstantiated ... given that not one single plaintiff claims to have been so threatened." The ruling also found that the plaintiffs had "overstate[d] the magnitude of [Monsanto's] patent enforcement." Monsanto brings an average of 13 patent-enforcement lawsuits per year, which, the judge said, "is hardly significant when compared to the number of farms in the United States, approximately two million."

In reality, Monsanto only sues farmers who deliberately break contract, and people who try to pirate their patented seeds.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/agricultural-giant-battles-small-farmers/

I can't really comment on this, since it's just anecdotes/quotes, but Moe Parr was knowingly encouraging farmers with RR crops to break their contracts so that he could sell the seeds for profit.

They've sued a substantial number of farming operations into oblivion for the sin of using seeds that spread on the wind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monsanto_Canada_Inc._v._Schmeiser

See my reply to this below.

[–]Fonguhl -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Monsanto wants to run the whole show. Here it is in their own words.

Why does Monsanto sue farmers who save seeds?

They go to other countries (Argentina) and give away the seeds to get their foot in the door. Then they jack up the prices and go after the farmers who save the seeds.

[–]Soul_Shot 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (4子コメント)

They go to other countries (Argentina) and give away the seeds to get their foot in the door. Then they jack up the prices and go after the farmers who save the seeds.

[Citation Needed]


Footnote: Please don't take anything /u/Fonguhl says seriously. He's not interested in honestly debating GMO safety, and all he does is spam GMO-related threads with conspiracy website.

[–]Fonguhl -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think I'm going to stop communicating with you, your footnote is obnoxious and a flat out lie.

[–]Soul_Shot 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So do you deny spamming GMO related discussions with the exact same garbage for the past few weeks?

You literally just paste the exact same crap, and accuse anyone who criticizes you of being a corporate shill.

You also dishonestly source people like Jeffrey Smith and Seralini, and ignore any research/evidence against your claims by attacking the authors and claiming that they're corporate shills/hack trumps/etc.

GMO Myths and Facts Report (an evidence-based examination of GMO claims

"Genetically modified crops and foods are neither safe nor necessary to feed the world, a new report by genetic engineers shows. The second edition of GMO Myths and Truths, co-authored by genetic engineers Dr John Fagan and Dr Michael Antoniou and researcher Claire Robinson"

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/2i414r/monsanto_gives_47m_to_colorado_campaign_against/ckynokr

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2i1pdu/what_things_are_truly_bad_for_your_body_serious/ckyn5yu

http://www.reddit.com/r/Colorado/comments/2i3i9h/monsanto_gives_47m_to_colorado_campaign_against/ckynt8f

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2i1pdu/what_things_are_truly_bad_for_your_body_serious/ckynhqi

A 300+ page compilation of facts debunking GMO claims: GMO Myths and Truths - An evidence-based examination of GMO claims[1] Table of contents w links is on the right of the page. Hundreds of studies on the adverse impacts of GMO's 2nd edition of compilation of scientific evidence on transgenics’ adverse impacts

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2i5b77/serious_how_do_you_feel_of_gmos/ckzdjmt

http://www.reddit.com/r/ColoradoSprings/comments/2ibg9t/monsanto_gives_47m_to_colorado_campaign_against/cl0y9eo

http://www.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/2iravm/gmos_are_everywhere_and_should_be_labeled_study/cl4qy5u

http://www.reddit.com/r/skeptic/comments/2ipokg/the_case_against_gmos_an_impressive_collection_of/cl4qz9z

http://www.reddit.com/r/Portland/comments/2ip8cn/whos_pouring_cash_into_oregons_yes_and_no_gmo/cl4r009

http://www.reddit.com/r/bioscience/comments/2ip2r2/socalled_trillion_meal_study_of_gmo_safety_is_junk/cl4r0m0

http://www.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/2in9wc/consumer_reports_seeks_labeling_of_gmos_in_us/cl4r41o

http://www.reddit.com/r/Health/comments/2in9vp/consumer_reports_seeks_labeling_of_gmos_in_us/cl4r4sl

http://www.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/2imazj/that_billion_animal_study_on_gmos_that_claimed_18/cl4r5eq

http://www.reddit.com/r/environment/comments/2ip8jy/the_case_against_gmos_pdf/cl55qvp

http://www.reddit.com/r/Portland/comments/2iwrau/since_measure_92_is_coming_up_for_a_vote_please/cl6i248

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/2j2bn8/cmv_gmos_arent_a_bad_thing/cl8g6yt

http://www.reddit.com/r/SRSDiscussion/comments/2jgtaw/genetically_modified_foods_neoliberalism_and/clc19bf

GE products have caused deaths in the past. I'd like to know if I'm ingesting them. Label them. "In a research article entitled The Skeleton In The GMO Closet -Did Genetic Engineering Cause The Tryptophan-EMS Disaster Of 1989? by award-winning journalist Ingeborg Boyens she claimed the disaster was caused by the introduction of genetically engineered (GE) bacteria which were used, for the first time, in the manufacturing of the nutritional supplement by Showa Denko K. K. to increase tryptophan formation and thus product output (Boyens, 1999). Unfortunately, the genetic modification of bacteria resulted in the inclusion of several toxic contaminants into the L-tryptophan products. (The technology of genetic modification -that creates GE foods, also known as GMO (genetically modified organisms) foods- involves the forceful, artificial insertion of genetic material amongst different species of animals/microbes/plants, leading to numerous mutations, and the introduction of new, untested toxicants, such as allergens and carcinogens (Smith, 2012). The outcome is systemic inflammation in the body which raises the risk of allergies, autoimmune diseases, digestive disorders, diabetes, cancer, heart attacks, Alzheimer's Disease, and many other illnesses (Smith, 2012).)" Why Did The FDA Recall L-Tryptophan In 1989? "It became clear in 1989 that 37 people had died and 1500 had become crippled, perhaps permanently, after eating a commercially marketed amino acid, L-tryptophan, that had been manufactured with genetically engineered bacteria by the Showa Denko company." Deaths and Cripplings from Genetically Engineered L-tryptophan

http://www.reddit.com/r/Portland/comments/2iwrau/since_measure_92_is_coming_up_for_a_vote_please/cl6i947

http://www.reddit.com/r/Documentaries/comments/2j3e8v/mma_fighter_dustin_barca_takes_on_monsanto_in/cl8fz6r

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/2j40qs/consumer_reports_throws_its_support_behind_gmo/cl8g01k

http://www.reddit.com/r/european/comments/2j20qx/so_what_do_you_fellow_europeans_think_about_gmos/cl8g1z2

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/2j8871/denverbased_chipotle_to_support_gmo_labeling/cl9e939

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/2jbbe0/why_gmo_labeling_may_finally_win_voters_approval/cla7sa4

http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/2jfoog/gmo_labeling_in_oregon_measure_92_turns_state/clbc80s

etc

[–]Fonguhl -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I like getting involved in a vigorous conversation about the issues. Facts do not change but the discussions do.

What's the reddit stance on stalking?

[–]Soul_Shot 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Spamming threads with debunked myths and accusing your opponents of being shills is a rather strange way to involve yourself in the conversation.

Also don't flatter yourself, bub.