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Crimea's Gay Community Moves Out as Russian Homophobia Sets In (time.com)

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[–]WeAreBRICSВаше благородие 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (24子コメント)

Sad to see that any form of discrimination is seen as the norm. Everyone has their own views on sexuality, but at the end of the day, it should be left to the individuals how they live their sex life. The premise of not promoting homosexuality to children should not be turned into an all out discrimination.

[–]vanderkraanHolland 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (23子コメント)

I still don't understand exactly how the "homosexual propaganda" law works. Does it mean that anti-gay rhetoric can be freely taught to children, but the opposite is illegal? If that's the case, than "not promoting homosexuality" will inevitably result in "all out discrimination".

[–]rubeyruTatarstan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/sikatjxesjolzio/RussianLGBTLawWhitePaper.pdf

[–]vanderkraanHolland 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks for the link. I skimmed the paper and really dislike parts of it. It reads like this Brian M. Heiss guy is frustrated with the current state of gay rights in the US and the lack of media attention on this subject, and tries to use this paper to draw attention to the problems at home. I can imagine his frustration when this Russian law got more media attention than the US LGBT legislation and hate crime rate, but he makes a ridiculous claim that the misinformation spread about this law is a media conspiracy because the law could be implemented in a way that it would cost companies like Viacom billions.

Another example is using the SOVA statistics that claim there were only 40 LGBT hate crimes in the whole of the Russian Federation over the past 4 years. He then goes on explaining this number is obviously false, but the real number must be a lot lower than the US just because.

But basically:

  • The law doesn't mention LGBT. It only speaks of non-traditional sexual relationships. The writer of the paper mentions this a lot as if it were a good thing, but it basically puts LGBT in the same category with pedophilia.
  • The law is pretty vague: "If you distribute, to children under 16, material which is aimed at glorifying non-traditional sexual relations in their young minds or material which imposes the idea that there are an equal number of traditional and non-traditional sexual relationships in society".
  • The fines for Russian citizens are pretty low.
  • The penalties are a lot more severe when media or internet is used to distribute material.
  • The penalties for foreigners and NGO's are especially high.
  • LGBT youth services are allowed to provide services to minors if minors seek such services.
  • These laws don't seem to be actively enforced.

[–]WeAreBRICSВаше благородие -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's an eye opening analysis, very good actually.

[–]lorenzoryeRussophobia turns me on. [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

You're speaking as a straight basically non-Russian, so you can just be quite now.

[–]WeAreBRICSВаше благородие -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Good analysis. I never thought USA had so much anti gay legislation and anti gay hate crime.

[–]satan-repentsCanada 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They have been struggling over this for decades and it's taken the a lot of work to get to where they are now. My wife was really surprised when I was showing her how much more religious people are in the USA.

[–]ineedmoresleep 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (16子コメント)

anti-gay rhetoric can be freely taught to children

define "anti-gay".

for example, violence against gays, workplace discrimination, etc. are all illegal, and such rhetoric is not tolerated of course.

but at the same time there is indeed a pushback against gay pride parades, gay marriage, and so on.

russians just don't think selebration of gay culture, gay marriage/acceptance/equality/etc. is healthy for society. but there is no persecution of gays.

[–]vanderkraanHolland 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (15子コメント)

define "anti-gay".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-LGBT_rhetoric

You'll come across these rhetorics in every society, but if it's illegal to counter it with information that homosexuality isn't some perverted contagious disease, then children will grow up increasingly homophobic and gay people will suffer.

[–]ineedmoresleep -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (14子コメント)

if it's illegal to counter it with information that homosexuality isn't some perverted contagious disease

but it sort of is, though? not the sexual orientation (that's up to each individual to sort out), but the lifestyle (the social thing). the more the gay lifestyle is being promoted, the more visible and prominent it becomes.

[–]itsFelbourneKeyboard Warrior 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (5子コメント)

If someone said "I don't like the Russian lifestyle/culture, it's fine if you want to live like a Russian but you can't promote it publicly or teach it to children. I don't think Russian culture is healthy for society", would you consider that discrimination/persecution against Russians?

If so, how can you claim that gays "are not persecuted" for the same treatment?

[–]WeAreBRICSВаше благородие -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

That's a bit fallacious. Any sexual material is not suitable to kids. Information on other nationalities is, on the other hand.

[–]itsFelbourneKeyboard Warrior 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

He wasn't talking about "sexual material", he was specifically referring to "gay culture". Implying that accepting gays somehow introduces sexuality to kids is completely backwards; heterosexual couples are also "promoting their sexuality" for children to see, in the same vein. Trying to say that some sexually flamboyant, visible minority of gays is representative of "gay culture" is no different than someone ignorantly claiming that Russian culture brings alcoholism or anti-semitism because of some minority group giving a bad image.

Teaching acceptance of gay people doesn't mean "promoting gay sex" any more than teaching kids about traditional hetero couples/marriage is exposing the child to "sexual material"

[–]WeAreBRICSВаше благородие 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not so sure. I think children need to be left out of the whole thing. You can teach sex ed, for example, without referring to sexual preference. When the kids grow up, they can get into the more adult stuff.

[–]itsFelbourneKeyboard Warrior 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree with the sentiment entirely. I just don't believe that being exposed to gay people is going to somehow turn someone gay who wouldn't have otherwise. Sheltering children from reality breeds ignorance, and you end up with people like the guy above who consider homosexuality a disease. Failing to properly educate children on acceptance and social equality is a recipe for breeding discrimination and hatred.

[–]IronChariots 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why is it that the existence of gay people is inherently "sexual" but the existence of straight people isn't? Disney cartoons have plenty of heterosexual couples, for example, but nobody sane would accuse them of exposing children to sexual material. On the other hand, many people seem to think that if a gay couple were depicted in exactly the same way, it would be inappropriate because it's suddenly "sexual material."

[–]heycci 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Are you afraid of becoming gay if someone promoted gay lifestyle to you?

[–]ineedmoresleep -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I could go either way, as could absolutely the majority of people. so if gay suddenly become the cool/hip thing to do, you will see more of it, yes. which means fewer babies and a whole lot of other things russians are not looking forward to.

[–]heycci 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

All right. But even with your questionable belief that people are not born gay but can somehow be manipulated into it, oppressing those who despite everything want to "make that choice" is still wrong.

[–]ineedmoresleep 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

no-one is being oppressed, though. unless you will claim that being single and childless makes you oppresed as well? marriage is a privilege that society gives to people in order to reward and stimulate a preferred behaviour. they want more married couples and more babies, end of story.

edit: and only very few people are born 100% gay or straight, that is not a "belief", that's a pretty well-established medical fact.

[–]heycci 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Read the following link. Russia does not criminalize the discrimination of gay people. Instead, it criminalizes the discourse about the discrimination of gay people. What you and I are doing now is illegal in Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia

[–]vanderkraanHolland 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The gay lifestyle thing is a bit of a myth. Gays like to keep their partying separated from their everyday uneventful lives just like straight people do. Maybe one gay pride event a year in some big cities, that's it.