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ArticleIntel buckles to anti-feminist campaign by pulling ads from gaming site. (theverge.com)

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[–]Quiet-Thinker360 [非表示スコア]  (27子コメント)

Can I make a statement?

There are three separate topics in this whole debacle. And they are:

Harassment Gender representation in the industry Journalistic ethics

Those who are pro-GamerGate want to talk on the topic of journalistic ethics. Those who are anti-GamerGate seem to dismiss this entirely in the interest of the other two, and that is exactly what sites like Polygon and Gamasutra have been doing. Heck, if you read the GameJournoPros leaks, you'll see people literally dismissing it, and imploring others to do the same.

Well then how can consumers change the topic of conversation? They have tried to debate, but when you are told that you are simply being a misogynist for over a month now, obviously that tactic doesn't work. So an effort was made to force their hand. They have gone to the advertisers. That is not censorship; that is bringing a valid complaint to the attention of their sponsors.

I am honestly more than happy to talk about harassment, and gender representation in the industry. I am more than happy to talk about journalistic ethics. But mixing the two turns everything into a shouting match. It means that valid criticisms can be dismissed based on the subject's gender. That isn't feminism. It also means that valid criticisms against a culture can be dismissed because the other side thinks it is irrelevant to the current topic. And both will be valid in their views.

That is what is happening. And it will continue to happen until one of them gives ground and lets the other side speak. Which side do you think it should be?

[–]firestar1215Steam [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

At this point neither. I'm sorry but given the starting point of gamer gate, how do expect it to be productive? Especially when all the anti equal representation flocked to it for protection?

Then you have the anti gamer gate people who don't seem to understand what the word misogynist means.

Like I've said else where, while it's admirable that there are people who genuinely want to change the movement to something productive, it's not going to happen. Any way you slice it, the movement was born out of the ashes of hate, death threats, etc and while anti gamer gate people refuse to see the people trying to make it good, pro gamer gates, refuse to see that they are still harboring "fugitives" so to speak.

I want gamer gate to go away, and something actually productive to takes it's place, because as of right now, trying to change it would be like someone trying to reform the kkk, you can sit there and argue about how the group is reformed, but people are just not going to care. (No, I do not think gamer gate is on the same levels as the kkk, but it was the first example that came to mind.) I know this may make it seem like I'm a anti, and I guess I am in a since, but I'm just tired of this crap. It's like a mosh pit of sexism from both sides, and it just makes the entire industry look bad. I want better journalist, but I also want better representation and communities. Right now people like me are just sick to death of this crap. Especially when it's like watching two kids fighting and then yelling "well they started it first" when you try to pull then apart.

Seriously though, want to hit journalist where it hurts? Get everyone together and start boycotting. You want to make a change? Money is the only way to make these journalist who think they are immortal, crumble.

[–]Quiet-Thinker360 [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

I want better representation in games. I'm all for TFYC. They aren't just complaining about issues, they're trying to solve them. But I also want better ethics codes in gaming journalism. As a 'gater' I am well aware that we have assholes 'in our ranks' so to speak. I don't like 'The Sarkesian Effect' guys, because quite frankly they are just to happy to be tearing people down. If I express this in pro GG places (notable KYM), I don't get shouted at for it. In fact, others share this view. I do what I can (which honestly isn't that much) to do some self policing. I think GamerGate has the ability to do good, and I try to make sure people are demonising the opposing views, because that doesn't solve anything.

By the way, to say that it is born out of the ashes of hate and death threats and that it should reform under another banner is advice that we have already taken. Why do you think no one calls it the Quinnspiracy anymore? Because we don't want to be associated with hate and death threats. If we reform again, exactly the same criticism will be placed on it.

And funnily enough, boycotting is exactly the tactic in play in the OP of this thread..

[–]firestar1215Steam [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

I think we are just going to disagree on a lot of these things, but I do think ops post was rubbish. Way to biased for me to take it seriously.

[–]Quiet-Thinker360 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

CNN did an article on it if you want to check that out.

[–]eifersucht12a [非表示スコア]  (4子コメント)

If they genuinely want to discuss ethics in a non-antagonistic fashion- and yes, many people do- they can and should do so without clinging to the tainted "Gamergate" moniker.

Language alone does a lot to change the tone of things. I'm much more inclined to trust the sincerity of an argument that doesn't rely on buzzwords. Slapping "-gate" on something has an air of sarcasm and snideness that seems cheap and detrimental, never mind the negative connotations and ugly behavior it brings to mind.

And it does. No matter how much people say "not everybody was harassing" it just does and that's the way it is. To a lot of people that's the face of "Gamergate" and the label does a disservice to arguments that should stand on their own without it if one truly believes in them.

[–]poffin [非表示スコア]  (5子コメント)

Those who are pro-GamerGate want to talk on the topic of journalistic ethics. Those who are anti-GamerGate seem to dismiss this entirely in the interest of the other two, and that is exactly what sites like Polygon and Gamasutra have been doing. Heck, if you read the GameJournoPros leaks, you'll see people literally dismissing it, and imploring others to do the same.

Please show me articles about this subject! I literally cannot find people talking about journalistic ethics-unless of course you're talking about the people who believe the corruption is feminists infecting gaming. So please point me to information, I'm genuinely interested in corruption, I just can't find info on it.

[–]Quiet-Thinker360 [非表示スコア]  (4子コメント)

Its because there aren't many people reporting them ._.

Here's a particularly interesting article as far as corruption goes. I'm more inclined to believe that it was born of naivety, but it still shows that a group is influencing what gets published and what doesn't. That isn't how the media should be, and that is corruption whether they are aware of it or not. The Escapist seems to have realised this, if no one else has.

As for the case of ethics needing an overhaul.. this article is quite good for that.

There are others but these are the only two I can get to without sifting through piles of information for an hour -_-

[–]therealduffin [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

Breitbart are the the same organisation that broke the Obama birth certificate "story" so they're not exactly a reputable news source.

[–]Quiet-Thinker360 [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

And yet Milo seems to be the only reporter looking into this fiasco. I won't agree with all of his opinions or views, but I can't argue with what he's been digging up.

[–]ThisSiteIsDumbAndBad [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

And yet Milo seems to be the only reporter looking into this fiasco.

Because legitimate journalists recognize it for the bullshit it is.

What are they supposed to write about?

"Today on the internet: Journalists who cover a specific topic have an email list devoted to discussing that topic."

[–]Quiet-Thinker360 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

..What you have there is a group of big names who can influence what gets covered and what doesn't; what is allowed to be talked about and what isn't.

I'm pretty confident that this came about when the industry was young and so wasn't too bad. But it shouldn't have persisted when things got bigger. The censorship is a direct result of this getting abused. And if you want to sat they were only censoring content that was actually offensive, I can find you so many examples where that isn't the case you wouldn't believe.

By the way, there are a lot of articles about this so it is silly to say that journalists recognise it for the bullshit it is. And a lot of these people writing about it (not all) are on this list. And a lot of what they are saying is biased against GamerGate. Funny how that works out.

[–]FlewPlaysGames [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

I agree that we need to have a conversation on journalism ethics, it just seems really difficult to find anyone who's truly arguing for that. Their voices are rapidly drowned out by people insisting that the SJWs are trying to destroy gaming and need to be stopped.

This whole debacle has taught me that, as someone who's genuinely interested in campaigning for an improvement in gaming journalism, I'm vastly in the minority. People simply don't care about the topic. When something questionable happens, there's a bit of a grumble and then it all dies down fast and goes back to normal. But when a woman is accused of something, or she says something that people (quite legitimately) disagree with, it quickly descends into an absolute cluster-fuck and overshadows everything else.

When the community cares more about picking holes in Sarkeesian's videos than they do about campaigning against journos being fired for failing to provide the "positive" review that they were paid for, it's understandable why a lot of people think it's not worth getting involved in. And it's also understandable why people think that a person's gender is a more powerful factor in how they're perceived than their ethics are.

[–]Quiet-Thinker360 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

Can I ask where you have been looking?

And I do agree that there are plenty of people who want to pick Anita's stuff apart, notably the Sarkesian effect (who I don't actually like..), I'd argue this isn't a bad thing. Its just handling a different topic. By the way, I don't like it when people are demeaning or condescending, even if they are in the right. If people think someone else's argument is stupid, you don't need to capitalise on that: your counterpoints should be enough.

As for the fact this is based off of a woman being caught in a scandal as opposed to a man.. I'd argue that it was instead the Streisand effect which has blown this up so big. Censorship of discussion of the Zoe Post are what got this whole ball rolling. That kind of crap hasn't happened in such a wide and unified manner before. But I'm glad it did. Because now stuff is happening, and conversations are being had.

I would recommend the KYM article on GamerGate as good place to discuss this. The comments section is where I've been getting all of my news. I you think that someone is being zealous or idiotic, call them out on it with a well reasoned point, and you should either get an apology, or a well reasoned response. If you aren't well reasoned, you might be called a shill, but thats about as bad as it gets there.

[–]Mobius438 [非表示スコア]  (8子コメント)

Can I make a statement?

Quit trolling this sub. If the gaters cared even a tenth as much as they claim to about ethics, they'd be doing literally anything other than harassing people.

[–]firestar1215Steam [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

He doesn't come off as a troll to me