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Can I "not attracted?" (self.SRSDiscussion)

bilnit が 投稿

Am I in the wrong if I'm not attracted to someone because I think they're too fat, or have too many pimples, or because [redacted], or because they have pointy knees?

I've heard that this sort of thing is called "lookism." It's where you hold people to culturally accepted standards of beauty. And while it seems, on the one hand, superficial and odious, I feel like I should have some "right" to my taste or opinion. Still, when I go on a date, and I'm not attracted to them, I feel shallow, and like I need to see their inner beauty. But if that's the case, I shouldn't be unattracted to anyone.

I feel like the answer lies in somehow weighing all their qualities on a figurative scale, and subjectively deciding whether or not I'm attracted to them. And furthermore, that a "more mature" attitude would not put as much importance on physical appearance.

What do you think?

Edit: I apologize for any offense caused by my poor phrasing.

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[–]BrienneFlakes [非表示スコア]  (32子コメント)

I don't think you can control who you're attracted to. You can control how you express that and whether you allow certain "minor" things to decide who you do and don't like, etc, but I think base attraction is out of our control.

That said, if your base attraction is "I'm not attracted to any PoC, ever" I think a) you need to be open to recognizing the root cause of that outside of yourself (from society and media etc), b) acknowledge that even if it's out of your "control" it's problematic and not a benign thing that should be violently defended as perfectly okay, and c) open to working on digging deeper into WHY, and fixing it if possible.

I'm not an expert on this subject by any means and I'd like to hear other perspectives, but for me I definitely feel it can be both subconscious/uncontrollable and problematic, like so many of the systemic problems in our society, and acknowledging that it's not okay is step one to fixing it.

I also don't think there's some enlightened state we're all searching for where everyone is attracted to everyone else either. Preferences aren't bad by nature, I just think our (both subconscious and realized) prejudices can really show themselves when it comes to that.

[–]turntandburnt [非表示スコア]  (31子コメント)

That said, if your base attraction is "I'm not attracted to any PoC, ever" I think a) you need to be open to recognizing the root cause of that outside of yourself (from society and media etc), b) acknowledge that even if it's out of your "control" it's problematic

Is it problematic that I consider skin color to be a major part of attraction for me? If I'm not attracted to dark skin, is that inherently racist?

[–]so_srs [非表示スコア]  (29子コメント)

If I'm not attracted to dark skin, is that inherently racist?

Yes. In reality, a person expressing that thought is going to inevitably be racist.

I really dislike white skin, does that make me racist?

About as racist as calling someone a cracker.

[–]locriology [非表示スコア]  (13子コメント)

Different races have different physical attributes. It's not racist to be attracted to certain attributes and not others on a superficial level.

[–]BrienneFlakes [非表示スコア]  (5子コメント)

It's probably not racist to prefer physical attributes that tend to appear more commonly in Caucasians, or black people, or asians, or Hispanics, etc.

It's probably racist if you flat out eliminate any possible attraction to an entire race of people.

It's like saying you'd never date someone with brown eyes (minus, y'know, everything else that comes with race, but bear with me).

If you say you prefer blue eyes, people with brown eyes might feel a little slighted but it's reasonable.

If you say you would absolutely never date a person with brown eyes, even if on every other interpersonal level they're everything you want in a SO, it wouldn't be unreasonable for people to question whether or not you have a prejudice toward people with brown eyes that goes deeper than aesthetics.

You might not. But the question would need to be asked.

Just like someone who 99% of the time isn't attracted to POC just might prefer Caucasian features ... but the question "Is there more to it?" should still be asked.

Because when we consider everything we know about biology and sociology, when we consider that we KNOW tangibly the impact the media's influence on what we find attractive, most times a lot of times in our society there IS more to it.

Whether the person in question knows it or not.

[–]turntandburnt [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

I know why I don't like light skin. I was raised in a culture where light skin was very rare. I'm also shallow when it comes to lovers and attractiveness plays a large part.

You might not. But the question would need to be asked.

considers the possibility that I'm not racist while

About as racist as calling someone a cracker.

is definitely calling me out.

[–]nomoarlurkin [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

I know why I don't like light skin. I was raised in a culture where light skin was very rare.

Well I don't think that can entirely explain it. I was raised among 98% white people but on average I find men with other skin tones more attractive. It's really common to have an interest ( or even fetish ) for a trait that's rare during early socialization.

I think I have a problem with some of the things you've said and not others. Saying "I could never date a [x] girl" is a problem. Saying "I prefer skin colors x, y, and z, maybe because I grew up with them" is fine. It allows the possibility that you could have a preference that is overruled by other things. It's unlikely to happen, but it at least lets you treat people like humans instead of just skin colors.

[–]bilnit[S] [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

Saying "I could never date a [x] girl" is a problem.

This turns on some light bulbs for me. Thank you.

[–]ellouelle [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

is definitely calling me out.

i don't think it was, as calling someone a cracker isn't racist.

[–]locriology [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

Yep this is a pretty reasonable position to take. I'm not talking about stubborn refusal to date someone without certain qualities, I'm just talking about gravitating towards a certain type of person just due to inherent attraction.

[–]so_srs [非表示スコア]  (6子コメント)

Says the dude with fatlogic and justiceporn in their comment history, with gems like this:

My first wife was tarded.

[–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

[deleted]

    [–]ThePerdmeister [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

    The user's argument, I'm sure, is the same argument repeated x times throughout this bloody thread.

    That is: you're not a bad person for being attracted to whatever you're attracted to, but 1) you need to realize beauty is heavily racialized (and has been for a very long time), 2) if, say, white skin is overwhelmingly considered more beautiful than dark skin, you should question this phenomenon, and 3) if, for example, you believe white skin is more beautiful than dark skin, you should try to examine the ways in which your aesthetic ideals were shaped.

    To repeat a sentiment I've seen about twenty times in this thread: you aren't a bad person for holding the preferences you do, even if those preferences are informed by racist beauty standards; you're a bad person if, say, you fervently defend the perceived "ahistoric" nature of your attraction, or if you don't give even a passing thought to the beauty standards you've been, more or less, thrown into.

    In short: yes, being attracted to traditionally white features, for example, is racist; this doesn't make you a racist, or a bad person, but you shouldn't absolve yourself of your participation in a racialized beauty hierarchy.

    [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

    [deleted]

      [–]invisiblecows [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

      That kind of callout makes a lot of sense here, actually. If you participate in SRSDiscussion, it's assumed that you agree with a few basic conversation parameters-- see rule 1 on the sidebar to the right. If you realize that you're arguing with a racist shithead who doesn't belong here, you call that person out for participating in bad faith, and you stop wasting your time.

      [–]yellowmadgey [非表示スコア]  (14子コメント)

      I am not sure I agree.

      I am attracted to thin people, am I sizeist?

      I am attracted to tall people, am I being heightist? (or a height supremacist, love that)

      I don't agree that who someone is/isn't attracted to can be problematic.

      Attraction is primarily physical, skin deep.

      [–]Hamstak [非表示スコア]  (7子コメント)

      When people make blanket statements about certain people and whether or not they will be attracted to them can be incredibly bigoted. If they do not ever actively question why they feel this way or dismiss it as being some part of their biology rather than a social up bringing they're probably pretty ignorant about it as well.

      [–]turntandburnt [非表示スコア]  (6子コメント)

      Would you say the same about gender? If I say I'm not attracted to males no matter the circumstance, I'm not being sexist. It's a blanket statement about 50% of the world. I'd never consider dating another guy.

      I know social factors influenced the traits I'm attracted to (female, dark skin) so it's not like I don't question it as biology.

      [–]bilnit[S] [非表示スコア]  (5子コメント)

      I have this same question.

      I'm not comfortable with it, but I kind of lean toward the idea that it IS bigoted to say "I'm not attracted to [X] under any circumstances, and will never reconsider it. Conversation over."

      But one problem with that line of thinking is that it suggests, for example, that homosexuality is a choice. And I've been taught that's not the case.

      So which is it? Every consenting adult is potentially dating material, or sexuality is a choice?

      I apologize in advance if my words are offensive. I'm new to the language of Social Justice, and am not a very sophisticated speaker. In time, I hope I'll be able to speak in a way that is welcoming for the perspectives of minorities and marginalized people.

      [–]so_srs [非表示スコア]  (4子コメント)

      Gender and race are just not directly substitutable like that. The equivalent to "I'm not attracted to black people" would be "I'm not attracted to women". If a gay guy is saying that, even if he is bigoted, it's not remotely on the same level because gay guys are maybe 2% of the population. Guys that are attracted to women for the wrong reasons are the huge problem.

      Is gender as invented as race? Yeah. Do we consider being unattracted to a gender problematic currently? Nope.

      We're at a point in society where it's not OK to treat people different based on race. If we ever even get to the point of accepting different genders and gender attractions enough that we can acknowledge gender attraction is largely arbitrary, we're probably centuries away.

      [–]AbradolfLincler [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

      gender attraction is largely arbitrary

      Wait, are you stating that as a fact? Because you seem to be stating that as a fact. You very much seem to be stating that sexual orientation re:gender is a choice.

      [–]so_srs [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

      A conscious choice, no. An effectively arbitrary attraction to certain traits which are arbitrarily assigned to genders by culture, yes.

      [–]blarghable [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

      it depends on whether you're "not attracted to" or "would never date".

      [–]so_srs [非表示スコア]  (4子コメント)

      I don't agree that who someone is/isn't attracted to can be problematic.

      Then congratulations, you're (at minimum) a staunch supporter of racists and fetishistic creeps.

      [–]yellowmadgey [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

      Because I am uncomfortable criticising who one is/isn't attracted to I am (at minimum) an internalized racist?

      [–]ThePerdmeister [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

      Beauty standards are heavily racialized. You need to realize this. Launching from this however, I would be cautious of labeling someone a racist for buying into racialized beauty standards. One's attraction doesn't necessarily make them a racist or a bad person, but one shouldn't absolve oneself of the fact that some brands of attraction, say, preferring typically white features, are racist. Does this make sense?

      So, for instance, it isn't necessarily wrong to hold racialized hierarchical beauty standards (well, I mean, it is, but attraction often appears phenomenologically as sort of innate and unfiltered -- which of course isn't the case; there are massive social/economic institutions propping up racist beauty myths), but it is wrong to 1) accept these standards as some sort of "innate," or "natural" personal belief, 2) disregard the ways in which your aesthetic values have been manufactured, and 3) argue fervently in favour of racist beauty standards.

      [–]so_srs [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

      At minimum supporting racists and racism.

      [–]yellowmadgey [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

      If the minimum you think I have done by being uncomfortable criticising who one is/isn't attracted to is supporting racists/engaging in internalized racism, I am not sure what the maximum potential charge is? Being a literal Nazi?

      [–]blarghable [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

      In reality I couldn't date a white girl. I really really dislike white skin aesthetically. Maybe I'm shallow but that doesn't make me racist right?

      is that really a big enough factor for you to not date someone?

      [–]Lolor-arros [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

      Of course it isn't wrong - you don't have to be attracted to anybody. It's up to you.

      If you aren't attracted to someone for racist reasons, or anything like that? It makes you a pretty shitty person - but that's it. You aren't required to find anyone appealing or attractive.

      [–]misandrasaurus [非表示スコア]  (8子コメント)

      have too many pimples, or because they're black

      I feel like there's already some problems in the fact that you strung these two together like this, but that might be just me.

      [–]bayesianqueer [非表示スコア]  (7子コメント)

      Yeah, I noticed that black was tucked into a list of things that many people would consider unattractive. I think you're onto something there.

      [–][削除されました]  (6子コメント)

      [deleted]

        [–]bayesianqueer [非表示スコア]  (5子コメント)

        That attraction or lack thereof would not exist were if racism did not exist, so yep. That's racist.

        [–][削除されました]  (4子コメント)

        [deleted]

          [–]A_HUMAN_REAPER [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

          A little thing called "common sense"

          [–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

          [deleted]

            [–]A_HUMAN_REAPER [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

            Well, that was wrong and this isn't

            [–]Glory2Hypnotoad [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

            Everyone's entitled to their preferences. The problems arise when you turn those preferences into judgments of a given person's character or act like they constitute an obligation for other people to be attractive to you.

            Also, just be aware of the fact that your preferences didn't arise in a vacuum. Whatever culture you live in, you'd be surprised how much effort has gone into selling you on a particular idea of beauty.

            [–]Sir_Marcus [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

            You can be attracted to whoever you want to be attracted to as long as you are capable of treating everyone else like human beings worthy of respect.

            [–]tivooo [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

            yeah. Imagine if people felt entitled to your attraction? holy crap that would be scary.

            [–]cinderella_story [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

            You don't have to imagine it - remember the young man in Santa Barbara, CA who went on a killing spree as revenge on the women who wouldn't sleep with him?

            [–]Fimmschig [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

            No, there's no problem with setting your own boundaries, determining who you want to be intimate or in a relationship with and rejecting people who you don't like in that context. It's questionable at best to moralize about people's sexual-romantic choices and shame them for rejecting someone. It's essentially saying, you have to engage sexually with this person, or this group of people, or there's something wrong with you. People's sexuality should not be part of some political pet project, so if someone wants to talk about discrimination, they should talk about that instead of instrumentalizing people's sexual consent as an ideological battlefield. It's really harmful to the entire notion of consent and sexual self-determination.

            Whatever social and political insight can be elicited in a more general perspective will be reflected in sexual behavior eventually. Importantly, our sexual preferences and opinions are not quite as easily malleable as our other behavior - our sexuality is formed within a much larger time frame and by its very nature, its pretty irrational and not subject to total conscious control. If you do not apply such standards outside of a sexual context, it's not something you should beat yourself up about. I also believe that if you are straight and possibly looking to have children, it's obviously both normal and acceptable to evaluate potential partners in that context, and not just the context of "I like this person in this particular moment".

            [–]i_am_a_meatpopsicle [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

            It's essentially saying, you have to engage sexually with this person, or this group of people, or there's something wrong with you. People's sexuality should not be part of some political pet project, so if someone wants to talk about discrimination, they should talk about that instead of instrumentalizing people's sexual consent as an ideological battlefield. It's really harmful to the entire notion of consent and sexual self-determination.

            God, yes, thank you for this. I definitely think it's good to routinely step back and critically think about why you have the attractions/lack of attractions you do, but at the end of the day, I think someone's sexuality is about the last thing that we should be butting into and criticizing from an outside perspective.

            Frankly, it's absolutely no one's business, assuming all parties involved are consenting adults. Like another commenter said, at the end of the day, what really matters is being able to treat all individuals with mutual respect. I don't see how people's internal sexual desires are something to sit around and criticize to the point of labeling them as racist/sexist/homophobic for having them. I mean, I just read someone treading the line of calling sexual orientation a choice or some kind of construct, almost like it's wrong to be gay/straight and not want to sleep with members of the other gender. As a member of the LGBT community, hearing stuff like that makes me rather uncomfortable.

            [–]javatimes [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

            I suspect it might be more helpful to think that if you had a trait most people considered unattractive, how would you like activity or discourse around that to go?

            [–]bilnit[S] [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

            Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

            I've gathered that it is unacceptable to not feel attraction to someone when your only reason is because that person reminds you of a certain ethnic type. The reason for this is because then you would be racially discriminating, and therefore racist.

            I'm not asking this next question to offend, but because it reflects some of the confusion I have about attraction.

            [–]so_srs [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

            I've gathered that it is unacceptable to not feel attraction to someone when your only reason is because that person reminds you of a certain ethnic type. The reason for this is because then you would be racially discriminating, and therefore racist.

            Not quite. The reason someone "reminds you of a certain ethnic type" and you're not attracted (or are attracted, which can be equally gross) is because of internalized cultural concepts you've absorbed regarding race. "Race" (or "ethnicity" if you want) is largely made up. If you "don't find <race> attractive", you're regurgitating racist beliefs whether you're self-aware or not. Best to make yourself aware.

            It's true that most all beliefs about attraction are probably culturally imprinted, but I hope we can agree racist beliefs are particularly harmful.

            [–]bilnit[S] [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

            I agree. And thank you, that's helpful. I'm trying to be less prejudicial and bigoted, and it seems like the best cure is just being aware of myself and slowly training my thoughts to spring from a different well.

            [–]MicahdM [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

            Anyone can be fat or have too much acne but only black people are black. That's discrimination based on race....which is racist

            [–]BastDrop [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

            Anyone can be fat

            I agree with you about racism, but "anyone can be fat" seems to be awfully close to "Why don't fat people just lose weight?" The arguments about exploring your reasons for not being attracted to PoC that /u/BrienneFlakes is making in the top comment can also be applied to not finding fat people attractive.

            [–][削除されました]  (1子コメント)

            [deleted]

              [–]modalt2[M] [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

              have too many pimples, or because they're black, or because they have pointy knees?

              I'm guessing this was reported for your poor phrasing, but I'm approving since you're getting some good answers. Please read the sidebar/required reading.

              [–]vicpro1 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

              Personality, attitude and other traits can widen your standards, sure there is extremes, which is normal not to be attracted too (in most cases).

              [–]justice1988 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

              It's fine to not be attracted to certain things the key is just to not be a jerk about it. Date who you want to date, but it's rude to spout off things like "Gross I'd never date someone who is..."

              [–]patonieto [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

              IMO is not the looks that you are judging and you are just not attracted to the other as a whole.

              Dont take my advice as someone with expertise in the matter, read me as someone that has asked himself the same question.

              Time passes and with it you might have experienced numerous relationships or crushes. Look at them, maybe they were all similar, in my case they weren't, but even when somebody ask me "what are you looking for in a person?" I have an idealization that by gift of this society, I've never seen first hand.
              I think that your culture and nature will define some aspects of a person that will catch your attention, but since we are humans attention is not all we look for, what we search is highly dependant of your current emotional state; you could be seeking someone to suport you, to learn new things, to not feel alone or you could be searching nothing at all.
              I look back and what I needed is what attracted me, and that's how I define the people for who I've felt for. They were not by any definitions extremely extremely good looking people and I confirm that by remembering how it is that I started to like them, also, there were people that could catch the attention of the whole room, but once I got to know them I was able to see If I was really atracted to them.

              If you really like someone you wont notice their defects. But beware, some defects are dangerous and I dont mean the looks. Sometimes you could love someone that hurts you and you just wont notice and could deny it. Don't forget that you could be the one hurting them. Ask your friends or maybe reddit another point of view really helps.

              Correct me if I couldn't make my point clear, my lenguage is not english.

              [–]vi_warshawski [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

              if i heard you complain about someone's pointy knees as the only thing wrong with their looks, and how you wouldn't date them because of that, i would immediately think you are really shallow.

              it can seem like you're being overly choosy, and sometimes that can be interpreted as you having an overly inflated opinion of yourself.

              but you can't fight what you feel; if you're not attracted to how they look, you'e not attracted. you shouldn't feel guilty about that because you're not doing anything wrong.

              the most you're doing is hurting someone's feelings by romantically rejecting them, and a mature adult will accept that. you shouldn't have to push yourself into a situation that makes you uncomfortable because of what the other person wants or what other people think.

              that said, maybe it would help to go outside your comfort zone. if what's niggling you about someone's looks are things you can identify as a minor flaws, albeit ones that are significant to your taste, maybe you can give them a chance.

              it's not a case of accepting and being attracted to their inner beauty as soon you get to know them on a coffee date or something; it's just exposing yourself to what they're about beyond a visual level. have you tried that?

              maybe if you give yourself a deeper picture of a person, you would like them enough to offset a big nose or a slightly beady eyes. if you don't come out of it thinking much different, move on.