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[–]grandslammed 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (35子コメント)

I would love a guy version of this post!

[–]darlantan 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (25子コメント)

Indeed. More to the point, I'm wondering what the cyberpunk chicks on this subreddit would consider equal.

[–]pippx 23 ポイント24 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Chick here.

I've always been really interested in the fact that the art on this sub seems inundated with female subjects. Whenever I see a male subject I get pretty excited (not in a sexual way, just in a "Oh this is new!" way).

It makes me wonder what motivates the artists to chose a female subject over a male subject. I will admit that I have very little experience with just browsing digital art, and so for all I know there are just more female subjects in general (for whatever reason). This is one of the only subs I am in where there's lots of digital art posted.

As far as equal, I'd like seeing more images featuring male subjects. If only to shake things up a little bit. I do get tired of seeing the same skinny vaguely Asian chick in a tank top and underwear with headphones on. It's just aesthetically monotonous.

[–]vincentrevelations 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

You actually do see a lot of half naked guys in these kinds of drawings. But they're equally skinny/lean and also just showing off their augs, or they're alone with their screen. They're not sexualized, it's just that the future is fucking hot.

Deus Ex HR and Cryoclaire come to mind.

[–]pippx 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I made another comment in here where I actually counted the occurrences of male subjects compared to female subjects in a DeviantArt search for "cyberpunk." Male subjects are about a third the number of female subjects, so while I wouldn't say that female subjects absolutely inundate the genre, I wouldn't say that there are "a lot" of dudes, either.

When you say "they're not" I don't know if you mean just the male subjects you're talking about, or all subjects in cyberpunk art. A lot of the female subjects are, in my opinion. When they're drawn half naked, or with tits bursting out of a shirt, or with half their ass showing... that's sexual.

And if we want to bring climate into the equation, then I would argue that since we're talking about the future, there could be some really cool fashion designs that are intended to keep the wearer cooler for longer. It doesn't necessarily mean that the world has gotten hotter, so everyone is sitting around in their underwear with a box fan blowing on them. I think the climate change can be seen as an element of the art, but I really think it's mostly just about drawing sexy people.

[–]warped655 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I thought when he said "the future is fucking hot" he was referring to the fact that everyone will want to look perfect in every aspect, including sexually, but that the characters in this aren't explicitly more sexual than is realistic (which I'd also disagree with but I thought was a more interesting argument than "The climate is going to be hotter.").

Well, actually I guess a handful of people wont care, but most people are going to make themselves pretty or handsome actually. And some of them might even be, ahem, "showy" assuming puritanical ideas continue to die off like they seem to be. But yeah, the art in this is pretty lopsided in one direction.

Is it realistic to have a cyber-girl's tits hanging out? Maybe in the extra sexy parts of our cyberpunk future.

[–]pippx 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I thought that was what he meant as well, but then realized that half naked people could also have a temperature issue, so... not sure.

I think you're right about the attractive argument though. How many sci fi novels feature a future where nearly every member of the population goes through some kind of extreme body modification to become beautiful? The Uglies series comes to mind immediately.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Got any requests? I'm pretty good at finding obscure media and a lot of people have said they want to see an all male version of this post.

[–]pippx 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I said in another comment that when it comes to cyberpunk, I prefer androgyny to obvious male or female characters. So if you can find some great art featuring androgynous characters, I'd be all over that.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I actually prefer that too. I'm going to have fun with this.

[–]MrGestore 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Try also with Nihei's work and Blame as well.

[–]Avolin 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Cyberpunk gal here! As a sex-positive person, I think this stuff is great! I usually only have a gripe when there aren't any sexy/skimpy versions of guys included in whatever it is. From other comments, it sounds like u/GenerallyDoesntReply is putting together because he's awesome, and I'm looking forward to it:-D

[–]TheCompass 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Honestly I was just chuffed because I own the shoes the girl is wearing in image 15. Das Boot by UNIF for the curious!

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (13子コメント)

I'd be very interested to hear this. I would also bend over backwards to accommodate them.

[–]djork 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Are you really prepared to bend over backwards?

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If we're talking from the waist? Then no. But I can crab walk a little. I didn't think anyone would hold me to that offer.

[–]I-baLLThere's no place like ~ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I've said this in another post but I'll resay it here:

Male erotica tends to be visual image based while erotica aimed at women tends to be story-based and textual. Are romance novels chauvinist because they're aimed at women? Is pin-up art chauvinist because it's aimed at men?

Do a google search or a GIS for cyberpunk romance and you'll find tons of cyberpunk erotica aimed at women...in story form.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good to know. Add it to the to do list.

[–]ohmsnap回路.FrY@t/home/ 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I'm not a lady but even though I absolutely love cyberpunk, I feel like it's got a problem with how it treats women. There are tons of feminists who like cyberpunk, though, and plenty of organizations and companies that mean well.

[–]pippx 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I posted another comment about this, but I'm really curious about what the actual balance is. Is the creation of female subject and male subject CyberPunk art all the same, and we just see more female subject art because of X reason? Or is it that there is far more female subject art created?

eta: I got curious so just went onto DeviantArt and did a search for "cyberpunk."

I used the following categories and just did a simple tally of 190 images:

  • Female Subject - 63

  • Male Subject - 23

  • Male and Female subject - 12

  • Androgynous/Unknown Subject - 23

  • Non-human Subject - 15

  • Cityscape - 18

  • Other - 36

Notes: I just used my own eye to discern if a subject was male or female, and then only if it was obvious - ie, females have breasts, have an obvious waist/hip difference, usually a bootylicious ass, and feminine facial features; males are flat chested with a equal chest/waist/hip proportions and are often muscular. Subjects with a lack of these obvious features or a combination of them (such as a feminine face but masculine body) are counted as androgynous/unknown. Subjects in armor are counted as androgynous/unknown.

I think it's worth noting that many of the non-human subjects were still obviously female. This included My Little Pony characters and female furries.

The category of "other" is pretty much entirely jewelry and meme-type images.

second edit: After a lengthy conversation with my husband about this, I think it just brings up the idea that there's a long-overdue call to bring more male subjects into art. Historically, the majority of artists are male. Historically, the majority of their art features the female form. Based off that and the really basic numbers above, I think there should be a push to include more male subjects in art (and as a sidenote, more androgynous subjects in cyberpunk, but that's because I think androgyny and cyberpunk go hand in hand).

[–]ohmsnap回路.FrY@t/home/ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

My guess is that there is more intentionally sexual art of women, and while that fact alone wouldn't make the case for it being sexist stick, there can definitely be too much of it and it could be the result of an underlying issue.

There are 77 pictures in this photoset, and pretty much all of them reinforce that "young and attractive" type that men of nearly every age idealize. Here's the women for comparison. At the very least, there's what appears to be an imbalance. Source of data

Most of the users on the subreddit are consumers, though. I think this being a conversation amonst content creators would be a pretty good idea.

Edit: parent comment added additional research, neat.

[–]heimdahl81 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

In all fairness, in a future where your body can be rebuilt cybernetically, I think most people would choose to be rebuilt to fit the "young and attractive" style that everyone idealizes.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

True enough. Not all media are created with the same level of respect for women. I guess the respectful portrayals are few and far between.

[–]Deightine 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Aside of the loli images in the set, the characters obviously pre-16, you may note there is a running theme with how these women are drawn. Usually they're holding weapons and are in various gymnastic poses suggestive of sudden motion. That's not disrespectful, but instead implying power. The crouching panther-like one, where she's sitting on her heels partially in shadows, immediately comes to mind.

Other shots are actually not as artificial as they look--the one with the black X marks over her nipples, I believe is a Chad Michael Ward piece, and his focus is mostly on trying to clash nudity with industrial decay. That's a photo he blended with artwork after the fact. Then there are others, such as any of the androids which would have exposed genitals if they were human, tend to have them replaced with a smooth surface or a gap with wiring coming out, etc, to emphasize that it's not a human in the image and yet still sexualize it. Makes it almost a visual pun of sorts.

So it's not a matter of respect in this case; that's on an image by image basis. It's hard to take random images gathered from the net and assign them common factors. It's very hard to say which things were created out of respect and which were out of lust.

But then, that's the beauty of art. The interpreter could be a pervert--in which case any picture of a banana or a danish suddenly became disrespectful, and so on.

[–]ohmsnap回路.FrY@t/home/ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think it'd be a jump of an assumption to claim that, actually. We should investigate this and see just how bad it really is.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm just speaking from all that I've seen. There is definitely a lot I haven't seen or read.

[–]ohmsnap回路.FrY@t/home/ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Same. I'll admit, I've tried to avoid the sexualizing content and focus more on the narrative, so maybe my outlook is a bit more optimistic.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (8子コメント)

I'll see what I can do... Give me a few days.

[–]Tech_Itch 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Now this is being constructive. Instead of tearing one group down, you're taking steps to accommodate other groups too. Thank you.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm an asshole, but I'll be honest.

[–]kayabwmn 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

lol are you the tech itch?

[–]Tech_Itch 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nope. Just a coincidence. It's a nick I made up for reddit, since I'm a tech writer by trade (No one you'd know. I work outside the English-speaking world).

I'm aware of Technical Itch the artist though, and DO like DnB, and follow but actively avoid posting in /r/electronicmusic, to avoid any confusion after I learned that we share a name.

[–]grandslammed 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Really? Thank you:D

[–]Avolin 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is so awesome of you! Looking forward to it! :-D

[–]woopdeedoodoo 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Some buff cyberpunk dudes would be nice. You don't see that much in cyberpunk art, it's usually women and androgynous dudes.

[–]ecrvnr 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (3子コメント)

[–]simoniz 30 ポイント31 ポイント  (38子コメント)

I agree with the people in this thread such as /u/mindfulmu who are confused as to how this is chauvinistic. Since when is it chauvinistic to depict a woman in a sexual manner or setting? The only way this makes sense is if you think being attractive or wearing a provocative outfit (or no outfit) is inherently demeaning, which is a pretty sex-negative stance. If you don't think either of those things are demeaning then in what way can art like this be considered chauvinistic? Is it chauvinistic if I'm attracted to women with idealized or perhaps even unrealistic proportions? No, its just what I prefer (hypothetically). Sexual attraction isn't inherently demeaning and neither is being the subject of sexual attraction.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (34子コメント)

It's the gender imbalance of the genre in its entirety that is chauvinistic, in my opinion. It's the heavy focus on the sexuality of women that makes these monotonous images chauvinistic. This is just 77 images, but I assure you there is no shortage of images online that are virtually identical to these. Let me reiterate, I enjoy looking at these images and sometimes getting aroused by them, but I still recognize that there is a bias in this area of entertainment.

[–]simoniz 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (29子コメント)

As I stated already, human sexuality, be it male OR female is not inherently demeaning unless you decide it is. If you view these pictures through the lens of overt sexuality being a bad thing then yes its chauvinistic. However, again as I already stated, I disagree pretty strongly with that idea.

And the fact that women are predominantly featured does not somehow make it demeaning, it just means that there are more guys than girls who produce/consume cyberpunk art.

Edit: To add to my point, would they still be chauvinistic if there were an equal amount of sexualized men and women in cyberpunk art? The art that depicts women wouldn't change but just because its a smaller percentage it suddenly becomes not chauvinistic? If the art is not chauvinistic on its own then it just isn't, end of story.

[–]ArttuH5N1 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

What comes to my mind is that couldn't it be concidered chauvinistic to show women as almost solely in overtly sexualized fashion?

Just a thought.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (26子コメント)

A major issue I perceive is the portrayal of women. There almost has to be an overtly sexual nature in a female character in order for her to be popular. When you can't portray a woman as a human being rather than a sex object, you have a trite and trashy work of fiction. It will never become anything more than a teenage fantasy novel/film if it does not recognize the reality of human beings. That's chauvinism. When the woman is less than human.

[–]ErebosGR 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (25子コメント)

Women (and men) have been depicted as overtly sexual in arts for thousands of years by painters and sculptors. That's not chauvinism.

[–]SentientRhombus 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (18子コメント)

I think what he's getting at is the general rarity of non-sexualized women and/or sexualized men in sci-fi/cyberpunk - and while these images may not be chauvinistic themselves they're indicative of a chauvinistic environment that heavily favors male characters as relatable protagonists and women as sexy props.

Of course there are plenty of counterexamples. But if you don't notice the general trend, you're deliberately ignoring it.

[–]ErebosGR 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Rarity of sexualized men? Really? You mean all the muscular heroes are not sexualized?

[–]SentientRhombus 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (12子コメント)

It's not about body type, but how they're portrayed. Easy example:

In the first page or so of results from "cyberpunk man" I see guys in trench coats, leather jackets, cargo pants... some with cybernetic implants or robot limbs. One guy with his shirt off and one with his jacket open revealing his bare chest.

In the same number of results from "cyberpunk woman" I see 3 girls in corsets, 4 in some sort of bikini, a couple in hot pants, and a whopping 5 topless. There are actually fewer not-obviously-sexualized pictures of cyberpunk women than otherwise.

That's an obvious disparity . I'm not saying it's a conspiracy - just that it is what it is.

[–]I-baLLThere's no place like ~ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

That's an obvious disparity

No, it's not. Male erotica tends to be visual while erotica aimed at women tends to be story-based and textual. This is like calling romance novels chauvinist because most of them are written for women.

[–]Panzerdrekはわたり 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Romance novels also often promote an unhealthy view of sexuality. Who says the two are mutually exclusive?

[–]SentientRhombus 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why would you be explaining the reason there's a disparity if there isn't a disparity?

Regardless, I get what you're driving that. However, I'd contend that the disparity between sexed up men and women is greater in sci-fi/cyberpunk visual media than in general.

I'm getting tired of using this example but not motivated enough to come up with another: Try doing an image search for just "man" or "woman" in whatever search engine you please. I just did a few, and the risqué results are pretty evenly distributed, in contrast to the cyberpunk images.

But I sense what you mostly care about is the "chauvinism" label. Again, I don't think the point was that sexualizing anybody in an image - or any medium - is inherently chauvinistic. However, when a subculture exhibits a wide divide between the sexualization of genders... even if it came about organically and without malice, the result is an exclusionary social environment. Which is some shade of prejudiced or at least inconsiderate, so I don't think "chauvinistic" is a stretch to use.

Edit: Got marginally less lazy and added links.

[–]ErebosGR 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Google searches are not consistent. They depend on the user. I see no topless pictures in the first 4 pages and I have SafeSearch disabled.

[–]SentientRhombus 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (5子コメント)

I'm not logged into my Google account, so I presume I'm getting the default results. But for the sake of argument, let's try another another source. Note that I did turn safe search off.

Bing image search for "cyberpunk man": Guys in trench coats, suits, battle armor, casual clothes. Two with their shirts off. Also some hilariously irrelevant results because it's Bing.

Bing image search for "cyberpunk woman": 5 corsets, 2 hot pants, 1 bikini, 3 topless. There are 5 wearing relatively normal clothes and the rest are in skintight bodysuits.

You probably want more. So I searched for "cyberpunk gallery" and found this image sharing page of pictures tagged "cyberpunk". Let's score the top 5 pages for sexiness:

  • Men: 0. Not a single dude who is not fully dressed.
  • Ladies: 7 in corsets, bikinis or topless.

I'm getting bored counting images in galleries but... I mean come on. I don't feel like I'm blowing the lid off some big secret. The pattern is clearly visible.

[–]AwGawd 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yep, exactly. Also known as search bubbles. It shows you what it thinks you want to see based on what you have searched for in the past. And all the other information that it stores about you. So this tells us more about you than about cyberpunk, SentientRhombus ;)

http://dontbubble.us/

[–]Panzerdrekはわたり 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They aren't sexualized necessarily, no. They mean to serve a masculine ideal held mostly by men: that of the perfect warrior. This is also a problematic image norm in that it reinforces gendered stereotypes, but to pretend they are sexualized is to show an ignorance of female sexuality. While many women might find a muscly dude attractive, seeing a muscly dude in a painting is not usually a sexually arousing experience. In fact it is probably more likely to be sexually arousing for men, particularly gay men, as men respond much more to visual sexual stimulus.

[–]Tarqon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The muscular man is more of a power fantasy than a sexual one. Both have the straight male as their audience.

[–]ErebosGR 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Power fantasy is the politically correct term for male objectification and forcing unrealistic expectations on men.

Are you saying that female oversexualization is bad but male power fantasies are good?

[–]Tarqon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm saying the depiction of ideal-type men isn't equivocal with the depiction of sexualized females. One is not a gender-mirrored version of the other.

I'm not making any ethical judgement of either of these. Just that the sexualization of men in media mostly doesn't stem from female desire.

[–]invadertom 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Wait. Just because something has been practiced for a long time means it's inherently ok?

"African-Americans (and other non-Caucasians) have been considered second class citizens in this country for hundreds of years. That's not racism."

[–]A_Strawman 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

"X has happened for a long time" doesn't mean it can't be chauvinism. I don't understand your reasoning-do you think chauvinism is novel, historically speaking?

[–]ErebosGR 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Do you think all nude art is chauvinistic?

[–]A_Strawman 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

No, I just don't understand your point. What does it happening for a long time have to do with anything?

[–]ErebosGR 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It doesn't. Sexual depiction of men or women does not equal chauvinism.

[–]Panzerdrekはわたり 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not sexuality that is bad. It is the relationship of artist to subject. Here it goes beyond sexuality into objectification. The only purpose of the women in many of the pieces is to serve as pleasure for the male gaze. That is an unfortunate way to view sex and sexuality. Same would be true if gender roles were reversed. People are not objects for our consumption. A little bit of that is innocuous, a lot of it is pernicious.

[–]nightyLEX -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

TIL People apologize for their arousal while masturbating

[–]Panzerdrekはわたり 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

The purpose of the women drawn in most of these pictures is to titillate the male gaze. The women are not treated as truly dynamic subjects but rather as sexualized aesthetic objects. It is chauvinistic because it reduces women to a role as sources of male pleasure rather than as distinct individuals. Not every painting or drawing in this collection has this problem as some are more dynamic and thoughtful, but many are clearly just male focused techno-porn that is not concerned with the female subject, just the female body.

As far as it goes, that is mild chauvinism, but calling it chauvinism isn't that unreasonable.

[–]I-baLLThere's no place like ~ 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The women are not treated as truly dynamic subjects but rather as sexualized aesthetic objects.

Yeah, just like photos of women playing sports doesn't treat them as truly dynamic subjects but as sportified aesthetic objects. And how photos of women playing music doesn't treat them as truly dynamic subjects but instead as objects meant solely for the creation of music. In fact, photos of women doing any one thing, even looking good, is objectifying because it doesn't show them as "truly dynamic subjects". We shouldn't see photos of women laughing because it hides away the fact that women cry. We shouldn't have any photos of women at all because photos of women objectify women because it doesn't show them as dynamic subjects. Any representation of women needs to show them as dynamic subjects with the full range of their lives. And it shouldn't be aesthitically pleasing because it would objectify women into being art objects.

Or, maybe, it's a really damaging way of looking at things?

[–]Panzerdrekはわたり 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, just like photos of women playing sports doesn't treat them as truly dynamic subjects but as sportified aesthetic objects. And how photos of women playing music doesn't treat them as truly dynamic subjects but instead as objects meant solely for the creation of music.

That's an interesting comparison, and illustrates how much you are conflating two very different things in your mind. First, these are actual photos of actual women engaging in actual activities that are expression of their actual accomplishments. Thus, the woman is portrayed as the woman is, not as the male gaze wants her to be. Now if those photos were photoshopped to make the woman skinier, to remove blemishes from her skin and to otherwise reduce her actual state to that of a preferred aesthetic state then yes, I would agree that the woman is being objectified rather than represented as a real subject.

In fact, photos of women doing any one thing, even looking good, is objectifying because it doesn't show them as "truly dynamic subjects".

There is a different between a woman looking good and a woman being reduced to how she looks. There is also a difference between a woman's look being incidental to a work and to it being central to the expression. In particular, it is noteworthy how often the sexualized aesthetic is entirely at odds with what the woman is actually doing.

To provide one example, just look at the major in GitS. She has massive cybernetic tits which would actually be a major hindrance to her occupation. The tits are there clearly to serve the male gaze. We want to see chicks with massive tits, so here is a woman with massive tits even though it makes little sense for a professional security specialist that is involved in highly athletic actions all the time where less overall weight and a lower center of gravity would clearly be preferable. Now you can rationalize something like this away in a particular instance (though GitS has never actually explained it, and has frequently taken advantage of it in titillating scenes), but when it is the norm in the genre this no longer just a one off case, it is a standard and an aesthetic expectation that the woman's body in the genre must be sexually pleasing. This same standard is emphatically not applied to men in the genre, where you have old, small men, skinny men, ugly men, scarred men, and so on, all of whom are important and dynamic and almost never objectified in any way.
Fortunately, not all of the cyberpunk genre is like this. Some works like Mirror's Edge deliberately move away from this way of portraying women. Neuromancer is even pretty good about this, so it is unfortunate that followup works by other author's didn't pay close attention to one of the foundational works in the genre. However such works are definitely the exception rather than the rule.

We shouldn't see photos of women laughing because it hides away the fact that women cry.

Again, you are making a false inference. It is impossible to create an image that reflects all the ways a woman can be. It is not impossible to convey an image that represents a woman dynamically. If individual images frequently reflect women dynamically, then as a whole the collection of images will naturally representing a wide range of possibilities. Representing a single woman dynamically /= representing all possibilities. That is your own conflation.

We shouldn't have any photos of women at all because photos of women objectify women because it doesn't show them as dynamic subjects.

The conclusion is invalid because the premise is wrong, as shown above.

Any representation of women needs to show them as dynamic subjects with the full range of their lives.

Wrong on both points. Not every image needs to be dynamic. It is also impossible to portray the full range of a life. However, when overwhelmingly images portray women as undynamic, then you have a representation problem. It is the difference between women sometimes being treated as sexual objects and women overwhelmingly being treated as sexual objects. In the former case, if the general representation has a dynamic range, it illustrates that women overall are conceived of dynamically in the genre rather than being primarily meant to provide sexual fulfillment. If on the other hand the overwhelmingly representation is sexual and objectifying, then there seems to be something going on with the genre where women are almost solely conceived of in these terms. That is problematic because it reflects a genre that does not view women dynamically.

And it shouldn't be aesthitically pleasing because it would objectify women into being art objects.

Aesthetically pleasing and sexually titillating are two distinct things. There can be overlap, but if the primary aesthetic pleasure is sexualized, and if overwhelmingly women are primarily there for aesthetic reasons in the sense of being sexualized, then this illustrates a trend that conveys a pernicious gender norm.

[–]Frog-Eater 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Source: Oxford English Dictionary

chauvinism, n.
Pronunciation: /ˈʃəʊvɪnɪz(ə)m/

a. Exaggerated patriotism of a bellicose sort; blind enthusiasm for national glory or military ascendancy; the French quality which finds its parallel in British ‘Jingoism’.

b. Excessive loyalty to or belief in the superiority of one's own kind of cause, and prejudice against others. Freq. with defining adj., as cultural, scientific, etc. chauvinism . male chauvinism: see male chauvinism

Alright then:

male chauvinism, n.
Pronunciation: Brit. /ˌmeɪl ˈʃəʊvᵻnɪz(ə)m/ , U.S. /ˈˌmeɪl ˈʃoʊvəˌnɪzəm/

The belief, held by certain men, in the inherent superiority of men over women; (now often more generally) prejudice against women by men, inconsiderate treatment of women by men.

[–]lurking_strawberry 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I can't speak for OP, but I think chauvinism isn't the correct term. Personally, I'd go with sexual objectification. Sexism would be a broader category.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I choose my words carefully. Hotdog

[–]ArttuH5N1 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The belief, held by certain men, in the inherent superiority of men over women; (now often more generally) prejudice against women by men

I think you could fit this description if you'd think that women are no good in cyberpunk if they're not overtly sexualized. Which I suspect is a thought some people think cyberpunk authors hold.

Just a thought I had.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (14子コメント)

inconsiderate treatment of women by men

[–]zz_h 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (13子コメント)

You're watering down the definition of male chauvinism.

I don't like the Justin Bieber and boy-band kind of pop marketing, and those marketers clearly don't have men in mind when they are planning their marketing, so should I call them inconsiderate for not taking me and what I think is good taste into account?

People can find any form of idealism daunting or alienating; do you really want to be wading neck-deep through passive-aggressive PC shit so that everyone can pretend to be comfortable?

[–]RobotBorg 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I am reticent to engage in any political topics, but I believe this is a valid point. To extend it further, current research indicates mammalian biology naturally tends toward males enjoying the mechanial and females the emotional explanatory article. Depicting the sexualized female form with mechanical enhancements or surrounded by machines is logical as both are of highest average interest to men.

Of course, we should still have sexualized cyborg men for the mechanically inclined ladies - they deserve fan service like anyone else. But you must be willing to accept there will be less of it, as they are statistically less common than mechanically inclined guys.

[–]ragstar 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Alright, I'll bite.

Firstly there are a lot's of examples in your album that have no basis for your title, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this being examples, and I could list many more.

Second, appreciating the human form is not chauvinism, just because a woman in an image is drawn to be aesthetically pleasing, naked or sexy does not make it sexist. I'm getting really sick of this argument online that any image portraying a sexually appealing female form is a taboo. There ARE images in your album that are overtly and unnecessarily sexualised this being an example, but again, where is this image from? Reverse image search shows it to be from a Hentai site. Images showing nudity or woman having pleasing attributes does not make it sexist by default. There's room for eroticism and sexually themed art in the right places, and submissive/sexualised female characters with the right context (read about the show if you haven't seen it before jumping down my throat).

The Milo Manara Spider-Woman cover incident recently is a great example because it was an incredibly broad platform like Marvel and had her in a red coloured skin-tight suit, provocatively posed without inspiring any sort of confidence or power. This is the wrong place, especially as Marvel have been doing a real drive in the last few years to be as inclusive as possible! But there is room for Manara's art.

Also find it really fucking scary that someone can look at an image without context and bring whatever horde of followers they have to harass an artist onto the fringes because they don't deem it to meet their set of moral standards. We talk about inclusion of all people in society, but then anyone we disagree with is bashed until the point that they have to remove themselves completely. Tolerance is about tolerating all sides, if you don't like something DON'T LOOK AT IT.

I think your post is quite poorly thought out, grabbing random images with some depicting an aesthetically pleasing or naked female form and others provocativly posed unnecessarily and then calling it chauvinism. But that's my two cents.

[–]justkirk 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly.

Case in point: http://youtu.be/CB6TiRJNI-Q

[–]infiniteloooop 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's a girl named Vivka in #13, and my friend Ka is the photographer/manipulator of it, they're both from my hometown. Here's his old deviantart account, some more cyberpunkish manips on page 5 in the gallery.

[–]searover 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (11子コメント)

shameless bait

[–]mindfulmu 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (51子コメント)

How is this chauvinism?

[–]Death_has_relaxed_meゴーグルの目利き 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (37子コメント)

Chauvinism would be the unfair treatment of women by men or oppression of the female gender.

Not only are there barely any males in these drawings, the majority of them seem to be helping the girls when they are depicted. Your claim of chauvinism has no base other than that these pictures could be viewed as "sexual" by someone.

It's a nice collection, but your trying to send some kind of message about gender issues is moot. 5/10 check your terminology and get off the radical feminism train, you know it's just a fad anyways.

[–]CWagner 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Many of those are probably on here: http://gelbooru.com/index.php?page=post&s=list&tags=cyberpunk

Just add another tag, for example "breasts", "skirt", "panties" or if you are into men "1boy" or "2boys" (way less of those though).

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Interesting...

[–]tanbu 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I wondered if I would see some Masamune Shirow in this. Yep.

Edit: to possibly clear things up, it's this picture I am referring to: http://i.imgur.com/lAEjPTh.jpg

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It might be fan art. Is it actual MS?

[–]tanbu 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The style is way too similar to Shirow's current style to be anyone else.

Just search the shirou_masamune tag on gelbooru if you doubt me.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wasn't doubting, I just hadn't looked into it.

[–]ieshido 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

ITT: hilariously clueless adolescent denials that softcore pornography is softcore pornography. Becuz cybrpnk!

Nothing wrong with porn, but it is what it is, and a significant proportion of these 77 images are exactly that.

A little test of your honesty you can do: print these images, take them up the basement stairs, spread them over the breakfast table and ask mom and dad what they think of the new 'sci-fi' you're enjoying.

[–]simoniz 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Personally, I was arguing that theres nothing wrong with sexually provocative pictures and by extension softcore pornography, which is the exact opposite of what OP is trying to argue

[–]SpaceSteak 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.

That definitely applied to some of the photos. So what? Would you show mom the latest beheading video?

If anything, these photos show an interesting cross section between cyberpunk and erotica. Especially as porn and eventually sex bots become integrated parts of the human experience for some people, seeing it in visual form is interesting, even from a different perspective than BRB gonna jerk 1.

What I don't get is your value judgement that seems to imply this is bad? What's wrong with sexuality, especially in a context such as cyberpunk?

Also, if you choose to view these images only as pure sexual gratification, that may be your issue. But for example, the nude torso of the girl with a head but missing arms and legs is an interesting dissection of a bot that looks human. If you want to get off on that... there's nothing wrong with that, but it's definitely not the only way of seeing it.

But don't mind me, I write a lot of fiction that sometimes has naughty scenes in it, so I'm probably a terrible person, at least by SRS standards. Becuz lul!

[–]cryoclairecryoclaire.tumblr.com 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (26子コメント)

I am so done with this sub.

[–]Tech_Itch -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (25子コメント)

Let me guess: Some of your work is in there?

The person who posted this seems to be deeply damaged. Don't mind him.

[–]cryoclairecryoclaire.tumblr.com 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Hell no. The last thing I want to draw is sexualised cyber ladies. That's pretty much the opposite of anything I like.

I might have to finish that pinup of Adam Jensen after all. sigh

[–]Tech_Itch 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Hell no. The last thing I want to draw is sexualised cyber ladies. That's pretty much the opposite of anything I like.

Oh, okay. Sorry for assuming.

There's nothing inherently wrong with sexualized cyber ladies, however. And many of the images didn't even have anything sexualized in them. Like this, this and this one. Unless you have a coffee cup or ventilation duct fetish. That's why I assumed some of your work might very well be included.

I might have to finish that pinup of Adam Jensen after all.

Please do. Plenty of people, many men too, would appreciate it, I'm sure.

[–]pippx 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Unless you have a coffee cup ... fetish.

Or an Ed fetish. I swear that is a grown-up version of Ed.

[–]vincentrevelations 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It is!

[–]pippx 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I fucking love Ed. As soon as I saw that I knew it was her :D

Do you know the artist that made it? I tried a reverse image search but got nothing. And this is too cool to not know who did it :D

[–]Loftydsm 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Can we just stop arguing and appreciate the beauty of the women portrayed here? :c

[–]c4ntr34dth15 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

These people aren't making women's rights better. They're just making the Internet worse.

[–]elevul 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Any of them are 1920x1080+ so that they can be used as wallpapers?

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Not sure. If you find one you like, you could reverse image search it on google and see if there is a bigger size available. Most of these are all over the internet, so you should be able to find what you want.

edit - This seems like a very friendly post. Some people may or may not have a vendetta.

[–]ilikeeatingbrains 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/LV426 represent!

[–]immerc 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (7子コメント)

I always found Major Motoko Kusanagi from Ghost in the Shell interesting. Sure they draw her in a sexual way, but they also make her extremely confident, competent etc. They even leave it ambiguous what kind of body she was born with.

In one episode of the TV series she's asked why she uses a female cyborg / robot body, she spars with Batu (huge and male robot / cyborg) and wins. She says that as long as she can use her opponents' strengths against them there's no reason to use a male body.

I may be wrong, but I seem to also remember her saying that the female body gave her better agility and balance, which is plausible, especially if in a robotic body strength really isn't an issue.

[–]vincentrevelations 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Also, Motoko is sexually attracted to woman. She's pretty clear that she doesn't identify with her shell. It makes sense if she'd pick a hot body for herself.

[–]immerc 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

She seems to think her shell is pretty meaningless, she may be a straight male wearing a female shell, or a gay woman wearing a female shell, but she doesn't get too concerned about her identity.

Why does it make sense to you that she'd pick a hot body for herself?

[–]vincentrevelations 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

She lived as a girl and had an accident as a preteen. They gave her a prototype replica of her own body. I think it's fair to assume she has some gender identity.

In the manga, it's made very clear that she's a lesbian (it's only hinted at in the anime). She doesn't get to choose who she's hanging out with most of the time, so I believe she picked a body which she herself finds attractive.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I always thought that was a cop out. Motoko is a female because she sells media. They wouldn't have nearly the same number of fans if she was a dude.

[–]immerc 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's true, but they don't make her weak, they make her the main character instead of Batu or one of the guys.

I'm sure there would have been pressure at some point to have a male lead and just have the sexy girl as the love interest or something.

A strong female lead who had the option of using a male body but sees no reason not to use a female one is pretty good for Anime.

[–]vincentrevelations 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

She has more dignity and personality than most pretty women in shows for women.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

true

[–]lasermole 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

great collection! thanks

[–]MrGestore 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

are number 7 and 48 from some anime/movie/manga?

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Perhaps. I don't actually know. You might be able to find out with a reverse image search on google. I just picked these up at various places then forgot where they came from.

[–]Linkzor24 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

das it mang

[–]justkirk 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

[–]D3ckerSection 9 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Any of you boys and girls know about the tactic "divide and conquer" ?

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Shhh! I shush mods for days.

[–]shitsfuckedupalot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Is there a privilege checking machine? Cause i have an erection.

[–]pandalust 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Sabe for later

[–]cyberflunk -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Otaku approved.

[–]spaceache -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Thank you OP for acknowledging these pictures for what they really are, cyberpunk environments with nearly or completely naked and heavily sexualised ladies in the foreground. I'm looking forward to the gender-flipped album!

EDIT: A word.

[–]GenerallyDoesntReply[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm workin on it. Shit's hard to find.

[–]ymeel_ymeel -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Commented by shameful chauvinists.