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A question regarding the seemingly pervasive anti-cop attitude.Questions/Self (self.ProtectAndServe)

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[–]DaSilence 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (25子コメント)

It's purely an internet thing.

I'd wager that 95% of the 3edgy5me kids that inhabit the bowels of BCND, AMIFREETOGO, and the like aren't brave enough to say any of the things they spout off in there, in public.

It's a rubber meets the road argument. It's really easy to be a badass on the other end of an internet connection.

But in the real world, where your actions have real consequences (unlike the blue arrow), they aren't actually going to mouth off and act a fool.

As much as they might preach to the contrary, they aren't willing to go to jail for their beliefs.

Honestly, I just find most of those crowds to be sad and pathetic. I don't hate them. I pity them. They make me sad.

BUT, on the bright side, they're not reproducing. So we've got that going for us.

[–]pl487 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (23子コメント)

I enjoy reading here for the perspective it gives, and I've never commented here before (I don't think), but, with all the respect possible, you seem to be out of touch with reality.

Have you ever considered that the reason you don't hear these things in public is because people are afraid of retaliation by the police (regardless of whether that's a reality)? The internet gives a safe space where you can express your opinions and not worry about whether you're going to be falsely arrested or harassed.

I'm confronted by an officer in public, am I going to mouth off about corruption and brutality? Of course not. I'm going to smile, apologize for whatever they think I did, and try to get the encounter over with as quickly as possible. To the officer I'm just another nice respectful man who thanks them for the job they do, but they don't know what I really believe.

And I certainly seemed to observe a lot of people in Ferguson who weren't on the internet. There are also many organizations that have started videotaping in public, following officers around even. They're not on the internet. They're going to jail for their beliefs. Not many people are willing to put their lives on the line like that (I know I'm not), but there are more and more who are.

It's really easy to sit back and say that this is only an internet problem. But the reality is different. I'm honestly really worried about what will happen if a tipping point is hit and the moral authority of the police is lost in general. I think we're a lot closer to the edge than many people realize. We've enjoyed policing by consent for a long time in this country, and if that is lost, it's going to be quite a shock for everyone involved.

[–]DaSilence 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (22子コメント)

you seem to be out of touch with reality.

I've been doing this for 15 years. I would argue I'm more in touch with the reality of police work than 99% of Reddit, including the moron boards.

Have you ever considered that the reason you don't hear these things in public is because people are afraid of retaliation by the police (regardless of whether that's a reality)?

Yes. That's why it's called the real world. Real world actions have real world consequences. If you call someone a fatassed retard on reddit, you get a blue arrow. You do it in a bar, you get a fist to your face. This is called real life. The fear of physical harm is what keeps the vast majority of people civil.

To the officer I'm just another nice respectful man who thanks them for the job they do, but they don't know what I really believe.

We don't care what you believe. That's your business. So long as you do what you're supposed to do, we'll never have an interaction.

Have you noticed the common thread that weaves all these alleged brutality victims together?

I'll give you a hint: THEY'RE ALL CRIMINALS

And I certainly seemed to observe a lot of people in Ferguson who weren't on the internet.

How many people? And how many of them were actually from Ferguson?

Hint: not nearly as many as you think, and VERY few of them were actually from Ferguson. Metro St. Louis has 3 million people, it's not hard to drum up 1,000 supporters for anything.

There are also many organizations that have started videotaping in public, following officers around even.

No, there aren't. Because of your confirmation bias, it appears that there are.

I think we're a lot closer to the edge than many people realize.

You're wrong.

But again, you're going to feel what your confirmation bias tells you is real.

That's the problem with echo chambers. They distort reality.

[–]pl487 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (9子コメント)

Remember the rules. You have to be respectful in your posts. I detect a severe lack of respect for me in your comment, especially with the questions that you sarcastically ask and then answer yourself. I took pains to show you the utmost respect, please do the same. In here, the rules apply to everyone.

Your sense of reality may be highly skewed by the position you occupy and the uniform you wear. You do not see the world the same way the rest of us do. Whether that's influenced your view of the world, I can't say for sure.

Is the guy who just got shot for getting his ID when the officer told him to a criminal? I mean, in more than the "he wasn't wearing his seatbelt" sense. To me, he seems like a normal person just going about his life. The idea that there are two kinds of people out there, citizens and criminals, just isn't a valid way to look at the world. Again, it may seem like it is from your perspective, but the world isn't that simple.

It doesn't matter whether someone was from Ferguson or not. They're still real people standing up for what they believe, regardless of the consequences, in contradiction to your assertion that this is purely an internet phenomenon that no one will stand behind in public.

There are entire organizations now established to videotape the police in public. They have meetings and conferences. They go out on "patrol". They're real.

And that survey could be interpreted the other way too. 40% of people either definitely don't trust their police department or aren't sure if they should? That's a huge problem. What happens when that gets to 50%?

[–]chaz345[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

he idea that there are two kinds of people out there, citizens and criminals, just isn't a valid way to look at the world. Again, it may seem like it is from your perspective, but the world isn't that simple.

Neither are most cases where there's "obvious video evidence" of police misconduct. The problem with a lot of these videos is that what happens in the seconds or minutes before the camera starts rolling is often very relevant.

They're still real people standing up for what they believe, regardless of the consequences,

I live in the land of protests, PDX, I can tell you that in a lot of cases, a large number of the people out there "standing up for what they believe in" are just in it to cause trouble or feel like they are a part of something. Ask 10 of them randomly why they are there and 8 of them will be unable to articulate a single relevant point.

[–]DaSilence 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Entertaining anecdote:

One of the few things I remember from my freshman psych class in college was a study performed on students who were protesting the Vietnam war.

When they interviewed male students 2 or more days after the protest, 80% of them had the same motivation for attending the protest: there were girls there, and they thought they'd get laid.

I can't remember who did the study or where, but that little tidbit has always stuck with me.

And, applying it to the handful of protests I've dealt with, it makes perfect sense.

[–]pl487 -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I agree with everything you said. Life is complex and rarely fits in a slogan or a chant.

But I'd just add that those 2 out of 10 that do have a coherent motivation (or however many) are still there and can't be simply dismissed just because there are dumb people too.

[–]chaz345[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

True, but that still doesn't mean that the position/beliefs that they are standing up for are based on reality. They can be, but the simple fact that they believe something strongly enough to protest about it doesn't automatically make make what they believe objectively correct.

[–]chaz345[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Remember the rules. You have to be respectful in your posts.

To be fair, I think that to a degree you started the disrespectful tone with the "out of touch with reality" comment. Saying that you don't intend disrespect doesn't make the word any less disrespectful. Something like "your position and experiences may be affecting your perception" or something similar says the same thing, without the slightly disrespectful tone.

[–]DaSilence -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

You know, I started to write out another long reply pointing out what you're wrong, but then I remembered the conversation I recently had with ole' /u/10-6, and I deleted it.

Your're going to believe whatever you want, and the confirmation bias / echo chamber that you live in is going to reinforce those beliefs, and there's not a damn thing I can do about it.

Good luck with life.

[–]crazypants88 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You have to realize that your perception of people generally liking cops is just as much of a confirmation bias as anything else. After all, just because a person you interact with as a police officer isn't confrontational or visibly affected by your presence doesn't mean they don't dislike or disrespect police. After all you guys have powers that basically allow you to kidnap people you don't like. Not saying you do that, but people are very aware of that. So, your perception, while interesting, is just as prone to fall into confirmation bias as anyone else's.

[–]DaSilence 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, my position is backed up with numbers. I'm fairly comfortable with it.

[–]pl487 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Right back at you.

Well, at least you were respectful this time.

[–]powpowpowpowpow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

We are going to vote you out of a job.

[–]DaSilence -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not sure what that means, but best of luck.

[–]powpowpowpowpow -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We don't need you, like you seem to think that we need you. You deal mostly with the bottom 5% of society and then think that everyone behaves like that 5%. You are a prison guard but this is not a prison.

Police to a large degree create the charged or calm atmosphere of a community. I lived in LA at the time of the riots and much of that trouble was caused by the hyper-aggressive Daryl Gates (the rest of that was the drug and gang culture which was a problem, but he was not making it better). That asshole had more helicopters in the air than those that flew out or Bagram. I have also spent a lot of time in tourist towns with very low crime rates despite the many strangers. The police in the tourist towns were explicitly directed to make the place welcoming and this resulted in better policing and I don't think that they needed a huge force.

It would take a very very level headed and calm person to take on the job of police officer and still treat people in an even handed and rational manner. Judging by your comments here, you are not that person, you are Barney Fife. A quick to offend tough guy who shouldn't be trusted with a gun. Mayberry didn't need Barney Fife, it needed Andy Griffith. Mayberry should have gotten rid of Barney Fife and kept Andy Griffith and saved the money. America needs to get rid of you and it needs to keep the good cops and just as important, it needs the good cops to stop putting up with the insecure bullies who are not real cops.

[–]10-6Deputy Sheriff -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Seeing how my job isn't an elected position, good luck. You could vote for someone else and get my boss out of office though.

[–]powpowpowpowpow 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Or we can vote for major budget cuts, or for people who will implement budget cuts. I really do respect good cops. I just think that most cops are just guys, they don't have the really high abilities to always be calm and intelligent. Guys get pissed off when dealing with the crap that comes up for cops, guys take this out on everyone else, guys make towns and cities worse. We need better than that and I think we need fewer and better police.

[–]chaz345[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We need better than that and I think we need fewer and better police.

And fewer assholes who view the police as the enemy.

[–]crazypants88 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The fear of physical harm is what keeps the vast majority of people civil.

It really isn't. What about people that explored areas with no human population and by extension no laws or government? Did they turn into murderers, thiefs etc etc? No, at the very least at the same rate as they did in "civilization". So no, that doesn't hold water.

Have you noticed the common thread that weaves all these alleged brutality victims together? I'll give you a hint: THEY'RE ALL CRIMINALS

That guy that got shot by that police officer for getting out his license like he asked was after all a criminal, oh no wait, that's completely and utterly wrong. Seems a theme with you.

[–]DaSilence -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It really isn't. What about people that explored areas with no human population and by extension no laws or government? Did they turn into murderers, thiefs etc etc? No, at the very least at the same rate as they did in "civilization". So no, that doesn't hold water.

First of all, if you're talking about people that explored the arctic and the like, they absolutely were covered by the rule of law.

If you're talking about the expansion of the western world into North and South America, well, your knowledge of history is a touch lacking.

This hypothetical you've dreamed up is purely that: a hypothetical. It doesn't exist anywhere in recorded history.

[–]crazypants88 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Seeing as there was no claim on many of these areas, no they weren't. And even if they were, the apparatus to enforce the laws, which is the "legitimate" use of force, wasn't there.

And no, I'm not referring to the Western territories in the US.

And i'm not terribly surprised you resort to just asserting your point. And what about the myriad of exploration mission sent into areas with no claim by a nation or state? Thereby there would be no law or a function to enforce the law. So no, unlike in some aspects of your life, this isn't a place where just asserting yourself will accomplice or demonstrate anything, arguments however will.

[–]DaSilence 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Are you familiar with the concept of extraterritorial jurisdiction? How about the application?

Or how about the fact that since many of these expeditions where comprised of military men, that military law might apply?

Moreover, outside the Arctic and the Antarctic, there isn't a place on earth where explorers went that didn't have an existing human population.

[–]crazypants88 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Right, that can exist, that doesn't mean that is the norm nor does it mean that it's then tantamount to enforcement. Much like murder exists, that doesn't invalidate the fact that people can and do live their lives without encountering or being a victim of murder.

And again, just because you can have military men in an expedition, doesn't mean it's a given. These are the most weasel like arguments, "if there's a conceivable possibility that in an instance of exploration there were military men, you are therefore wrong" It's absurd as there have been expeditions that included no military men and to an area, that yes had a population, but no effective law.

Look at the Leif Ericsson expedition, there was no effective military in their culture and any law they might have followed was Icelandic commonwealth law, which wasn't enforced via use of force, but by exile. Yet the expedition wasn't immediately thrown into chaos because there wasn't an agency enforcing the laws via the threat of force.

[–]DaSilence 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How do you enforce exile without the use of force?

"You are exiled! You may no longer live here!"

"Screw you, I'm not leaving!"

"Oh, OK. Nevermind."

Your assertions belie knowledge of the development of human civilization in general, and the underpinnings of the rule of law in specific.

[–]chaz345[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

BUT, on the bright side, they're not reproducing. So we've got that going for us.

Lol.