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City government wants to buy my land, can I refuse? How do I negotiate? (self.personalfinance)

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[–]lilfunky1 33 ポイント34 ポイント  (77子コメント)

I can't remember what it's called, but if you refuse to sell, they might be able to just take it from you.

It was in the news a while ago that some people got evicted from houses they owned so the TTC could knock them down and build new subway stations/tunnels. One guy was even a long term TTC employee who was getting evicted.

[–]iaalaughlin 39 ポイント40 ポイント  (76子コメント)

Eminent Domain/Compulsory purchase/Resumption/Expropriation/etc

[–]StackAttacker -21 ポイント-20 ポイント  (75子コメント)

It's called freedom or democracy.

Edit: so many americans down voting, my bad.. I forgotten stealing land is one of your favorite things.

[–]sp106 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Do you like highways electric lines and sewers?

Should one ass hole not selling cause a project which costs millions and benefits millions to be stopped?

You're never going to have a completely supported public works project, and you're always going to piss at least someone off. It's a trade off, they try to minimize this by making the attempt to fairly compensate them.

[–]I_am_Norwegian 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Do you like highways electric lines and sewers?

False dichotomy. But even if we ignore that, you're still arguing from consequences. Who owns OP's land? OP, or the government. If it's the government, fine, then you're basically a serf. If it's OP, then the government is stealing his land. Now, you could argue that this is justified theft, but if OP's land is being taken when he does not have any reasonable way to opt out of this, when the government is going to take it no matter if he consents or not, it's theft.

[–]UselessGadget 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think it helps to know what they plan on doing with the land. Many people fight it because they don't want to be inconvenienced and they resist change but knowing what will come of it helps.

A similar way of thinking: A friend of mine made a comment about the new neighborhood being built next to his home that had been there for 30+ years surrounded by woods. Someone else made a comment about how "we" should pool our money together and buy a bunch of land in some other state. We could all live in the area similar to where they grew up, etc... I started to point out that they would be doing the same thing to someone else area that is being done to them, but then deleted my comment because I didn't want to argue with idiots.

[–]I_TAPE_BUTTHOLES -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That is an absurd argument.

[–]StackAttacker -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I would not like a highway past my house, thats correct! I'm pretty sure most people won't like it. That would have to pay very very very large sums of money to get MY land.

[–]johnnyfiv3 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

So you're just a NIMBY.

[–]StackAttacker -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Everyone is a NIMBY when push comes to shove.

[–]SiouxBaru 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/im14andthisisdeep

[–]I_am_Norwegian 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Haha, don't be too truthful, it's uncomfortable. Wouldn't want people to realize that they don't really have property rights. At best you rent land from the government.

[–]iaalaughlin 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Stealing land? We paid for the vast majority of America's land.... Unlike the French, British and Russians.

[–]SingsSongs -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (64子コメント)

Yeah right, that's something that always bothered me admit my country. Freedom and liberty. Come join us. Have your own land, but you have to pay us for it because we provide you protection like the mafia and services that never work like the post office and if you try to get someone else to do that then it's an act of war. Also after you pay it all and deal with that shit, if we want it we can take it.

[–]HaoleAsFuck 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (62子コメント)

Must be tough being a teenager who just discovered politics these days...

[–]Idrinkbeer4breakfast -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (57子コメント)

To be fair, the government acts similar to the mafia. You have to pay them money and in turn they protect you from a variety of things. If you try to tell them to frick off and don't pay, they will punish you, potentially severely.

[–]HaoleAsFuck 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (25子コメント)

That's one grossly oversimplified and incredibly dumb way to think about it.

[–]098765432112 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Try not paying your taxes and see what happens to you. If you are small time and owe almost nothing, they'll just add fines and interest on until you do, then once it builds up threaten to garnish your wages (we just received the new garnishment table in the mail for an old employee that no longer works here... regardless of how much you make, they will take your entire paycheck but leave you with 200 dollars from each check each week). No adult, especially with a family, could afford to live off of that.

If you make a lot of money and don't pay them... you end up in jail AND fined. Ask a variety of famous people whose tax guys fucked up on their taxes.

In most states there is property tax... so you buy your house in cash... no loan... but every year, they determine a value of your house and tax you on it. If you don't pay, they will place a lien on your house and will literally take your property with force if necessary and then auction it off.

You can say they are providing roads and power and water and police. But most of that funding actually comes from other taxes, and you pay fees to have power, water, etc just turned on... maintenance fees. Where we live, even if you used no power, water or gas... your bill would still be a minimum of about 50 dollars a month.

So, while it might be a bit oversimplified... it's not "incredibly" dumb. It's just a narrow minded.

[–]Idrinkbeer4breakfast -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (23子コメント)

Is anything in my analogy wrong?

[–]elHuron 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I don't agree with the parent comment's phrasing, but your summary is a bit simplistic.

It helps if you think about the alternative, where the NIMBYs win and nothing gets done.

[–]I_am_Norwegian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Simplifying something doesn't make it wrong.

Appealing to consequences, especially when the guy you're talking to is talking about normative ethics, is also not really a relevant or valid argument. Can you rebut his argument on it's own ground? Are you a "The ends justify the means" kind of guy?

[–]Idrinkbeer4breakfast -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree it's simplistic, but it's definitely not absurd. People don't think of it like that, but at the end of the day, the government extracts money from us, often against our will, for in my case when it comes to the Feds almost purely protection and not much else.

[–]HaoleAsFuck 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Yes, because the mafia's "protection" is them not doing horrible things to you and the government "extorts" you to provide you with a functioning society with an educated population, usable roads and services, defense, etc.

A good way to think about it is that there's a reason nations that have an excess of corruption/mafia control or a lack of government tend to be failing it failed states while places with robust, low corruption governments that tax in numbers that would make Ayn Rand weep into her welfare cheques tend to actually be much better off than places like America.

[–]Idrinkbeer4breakfast 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (17子コメント)

Well Al Capone was called a real life Robin Hood, was known for his charity, and was very well liked around Chicago so he must not have been THAT bad to the populace.

while places with robust, low corruption governments that tax in numbers that would make Ayn Rand weep into her welfare cheques tend to actually be much better off than places like America.

I think you mean her refund checks. That was her money in the first place. And better off according to whom? Even something like "better off" is a subjective term. I'm better off with more of my own money in my pocket that I can use to make decisions that I feel are in my best interest, not what some suit 3,000 miles away thinks is in my best interest.

[–]AwesomerOrsimer -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Too much water will kill you

Too much poison will kill you

WATER EQUALS POISON WAKE UP SHEEPLE

[–]SiouxBaru 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (5子コメント)

But unlike the mafia they do a lot more than "protect you". Saying the only benefit of government is protection is silly.

[–]Idrinkbeer4breakfast -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Likewise, many people considered Capone a modern day Robin Hood and he was relatively well liked by Chicagoans. He was a very charitable giver as well so the only benefit of the mafia isn't protection.

On an overarching scale, the mafia and the government aren't so different as they would seem on the surface, which helps explain why the two have been entertangled so much over the years.

[–]SiouxBaru -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

So you're honestly making the argument that because Capone gave back to the community that the mafia and the government are indeed the same?

the mafia and the government aren't so different

No. Just, no.

which helps explain why the two have been entertangled so much over the years.

Please stop....

[–]Idrinkbeer4breakfast -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

So you're honestly making the argument that because Capone gave back to the community that the mafia and the government are indeed the same?

Where did I say that?

[–]PopePaulFarmer 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (24子コメント)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_contract

go learn yourself some politics 101, son

[–]Idrinkbeer4breakfast 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (22子コメント)

I love how certain people make up a theory about a non-existent contract and then try to use that theory to shoot anybody else down. Unless you can show me where I signed this "social contract" I'm not interested in discussing it.

But yea, politics 101

[–]PopePaulFarmer 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (21子コメント)

yeah, i just made up the political theory of the social contract

you can thank me later, young lad

-Plato

[–]Idrinkbeer4breakfast 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (20子コメント)

made up the political theory of the social contract

Made up theory. If you're going to hold me to a contract, I'd like to know when and where I agreed to said contract.

[–]autowikibot 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Social contract:

In moral and political philosophy, the social contract or political contract is a theory or model, originating during the Age of Enlightenment, that typically addresses the questions of the origin of society and the legitimacy of the authority of the state over the individual. Social contract arguments typically posit that individuals have consented, either explicitly or tacitly, to surrender some of their freedoms and submit to the authority of the ruler or magistrate (or to the decision of a majority), in exchange for protection of their remaining rights. The question of the relation between natural and legal rights, therefore, is often an aspect of social contract theory. The Social Contract (Du contrat social ou Principes du droit politique) is also the short title of a 1762 book by Jean-Jacques Rousseau on this topic.

Image i

Interesting: The Social Contract | Leviathan (book) | Social Contract (Ontario) | Social contract (Malaysia)

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[–]SingsSongs -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

One I'm not a teenager and two even if I was who are you to discourage learning this stuff.You seem like a huge dick.

[–]HaoleAsFuck -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

It's okay kiddo, being a teenager is a state of mind.

[–]SingsSongs -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Lol sounds like you know that state of mind perfectly. Sounds like you were a bully in high school and are trying to be one on reddit but you know what. It's not going to get you anywhere because I know what the real world is like and you sit behind a computer all day trying to make people feel bad so you feel better instead of doing anything. Well I am going to be the bigger man and hope you amount to something rather than just being a troll.

[–]HaoleAsFuck -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Strollin' through the school hallways huntin' down the kids who dared show a copy of a Rand book on my turf. Make the litte ancaps call me a Captain of Industry because I perfected the swirly and business was booming. That's right G, in the playground I was motherfuckin' Atlas Thugged.

[–]johnnyfiv3 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The post office is amazing, I don't know what you're talking about.