25
26

I am ashamed of you, /r/Vegan. (self.vegan)

DPaluchevegan 20+ years が 投稿

I know we've all witnessed pro-vegan comments get downvoted into oblivion elsewhere on reddit, simply because they were trying to advocate the vegan lifestyle in some way, so I am extremely disappointed that some of us have decided to return the favor towards /u/gannet-on-a-rock, author of the dairy farmer AMA, who elected to stick his neck out and post in the related /r/vegan thread, currently on the front page.

The majority* of his comments were purely expressions of his personal opinion, and by downvoting them:

  1. you are discouraging him and others with differing opinions from coming here to talk to us, and
  2. you are reinforcing negative stereotypes about vegans.

Please consider what he and other visitors will take away from this interaction.

*At least one of his comments was, in my opinion, quite rude/condescending, which I do not condone.

全ての 93 コメント
並べ替え:
ベスト
ベスト
トップ
新着
注目
論争中
古い順

[–]yourlycantbsrs 74 ポイント75 ポイント  (8子コメント)

"Opinion" isn't a word that means you don't have to think critically about what you're saying. Some opinions are wrong. It's not just that he had a different opinion, it's that he was saying factually incorrect things like cows don't care much when calves are taken and cows probably don't feel pain in a way that matters much.

[–]anachronicvegan 20+ years 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree.

Just because someone says something is an opinion doesn't mean I'm not allowed to call BS.

The farmer stating that harming humans is different than harming cows, so - ipso facto - he's got a free pass to do whatever he wants to dairy cows is BS.

People used that same line of "reasoning" (ie: they're lesser beings) back in the day when trying to justify beating their wives, or slaves.

It's not something I can tolerate.

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Thanks for the comment. Have an upvote!

From my dictionary:

Opinion - a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge

He said time and again that he was speaking from his own experience.

[–]gibs 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is what I believe regarding entitlement to opinions, from a philosophical standpoint: http://theconversation.com/no-youre-not-entitled-to-your-opinion-9978

And this is the approach that I believe works for changing a person's viewpoint: http://www.animalrightsrevolution.com/top-ways-to-persuade-as-many-people-to-go-vegan-as-possible/

The two are contradictory, unfortunately. I'm guessing most of us here value both of these approaches to some extent. Which approach a person takes usually reflects their priority of each of those values:

  1. The principle of only being entitled to opinions you can defend
  2. Persuading a person away from their belief in practice

In essence, it comes down to whether you value principle over pragmatism.

[–]FoKFillbiocentrist 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

reddiquette:

If you think something contributes to conversation, upvote it. If you think it does not contribute to the subreddit it is posted in or is off-topic in a particular community, downvote it.

Factually incorrect comments, opinions or not, do not contribute to the conversation.

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Would you please explain to me why factually incorrect comments don't contribute to the conversation?

[–]Jen33vegan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

...Did you read what just typed?

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Of course I did. Although your question made me go back and read it again. I'd still like to know why he believes that factually incorrect comments, opinions or not, do not contribute to the conversation.

Do you have any input on that?

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why are you bending over backwards to defend that piece of shit cow farmer? Oooh, sorry, not piece of shit. I mean, that rotten scoundrel.

[–]deathbatcountryvegan 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's funny how serious people take the up and down voting on this site....

[–]knitknitterknitvegan 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (16子コメント)

I don't understand why vegans think it is their job to uphold how the whole world looks at veganism, or to yell at others for not doing it their way. Can you imagine if this was the case for other groups of people? What if I was ashamed of the knitters in the knitting subreddit for suggesting that someone should act only a certain way to make non-knitters view them as less passionate or fanatical when they discuss knitting.

People are people. Some are assholes, some are nice, some are passionate, some aren't. People should take every individual on their own and stop lumping them into groups, and groups should stop fighting amongst themselves as to how to get the world to see them.

[–]janewashington 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Those damn knitters. They think they are sooooo much better than me.

[–]dirtytoes 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oh great a crocheter. Go away until you learn to use multiple needles at once.

/s

[–]Mississimia 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (7子コメント)

For real. If someone called knitters ignorant by suggesting they learn more about yarn to stop their knitting ways, I'd like to think they'd all stand together in their "fuck off." Most people know that you can't pander to every critic out there and keep your self-respect.

[–]themodredditneedsvegan newbie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I see your point and agree but I'll quote your post and replace a few words to show you why I don't think that's a good argument (at least when talking to an omni).

For real. If someone called dairy farmers ignorant by suggesting they learn more about the dairy industry to stop their dairy procuring ways, I'd like to think they'd all stand together in their "fuck off." Most people know that you can't pander to every critic out there and keep your self-respect.

[–]Mississimia 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yeah, I get that. I just haven't even been here for very long and I'm already a little sick of these posts condemning the entire sub for not being perfect model vegans 100% of the time. If I approached every single interaction with a non-vegan as some potential watershed moment that could either bring them to veganism or drive them away from it forever, I would lose my mind.

[–]paralleloscram 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Can we get this comment posted as this subreddits banner please?

[–]themodredditneedsvegan newbie 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good point. Just because you're vegan does not mean you represent every other vegan. I come from Texas and growing up thought the concept of veganism was extreme, hipster, liberal, hippie, or whatever thing you wanna call it. Once I read into it though, I realized vegans can be all or none of what I just described. We just want animals to be treated with respect and kindness. They should be treated the same way we treat the animals society unanimously agrees we should care about. So yes, good point about not having to be the perfect vegan every time it comes up, just be yourself.

[–]vvvveg 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I very much feel what you're saying. To demand that we never get angry would be to demand that we should be emotionless robots - it is an impossible demand. Animal rights is a basic justice issue, it is about a deep and pervasive injustice that will take decades to transform. Of course we will get angry, sad and incredibly frustrated sometimes. Caring deeply about others in harm does that to non-robot creatures like ourselves.

But at the same time I tend to agree with Tom Regan who wrote:

The last thing other animals need is another reason not to care about them. How we act towards other people can provide just such a reason. Being rude or judgmental doesn’t help any nonhuman. A coping technique I use (to quell my impatience, when I feel it bubbling-up in my throat) is to think of the people who ask questions I’ve been asked hundreds of times as mirrors. Yes, I think of them as mirrors. When I look at them, in other words, what I see is a reflection of who I used to be. Like them, there was a time when I didn’t know how other animals were being treated. Like them, there was a time when I knew but didn’t care. Like them, there was a time when I knew and cared but not enough to change how I was living. Like them, there was a time when I was . . . them!

I think these two things can be combined. We should try to be constructive, informative and brush away the excuses others throw at us. But it is ok if we don't succeed in doing so all the time. We shouldn't be so hard on ourselves when that happens either. I wouldn't tell other vegans that I'm ashamed on them when they turn angry in some conversation. Better to say that it happens to all of us some time or other but encourage us to try to keep our cool and our eyes on the prize. Remember: for the animals!

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I would never, ever tell someone to (seriously) fuck off. Or if I did, I would regret it soon afterwards.

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're seriously comparing animal abuse to knitting?! What is wrong with you?

[–]Homozygotevegan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, but in the reality we live in people are percieved as a group. That probably doesn't matter to those who knit, but vegans actually have a shared agenda.

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I think there are a lot of people out there who will condemn X group because a few people from X group were assholes. In the case of veganism, I don't want anyone to be scared away from learning about/exploring/asking questions about veganism because the popular opinion among that person's friends is that all vegans are lunatics.

[–]yourlycantbsrs 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I think there are a lot of people out there who will condemn X group because a few people from X group were assholes.

Well, that's shitty reasoning on their part.

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Indeed! But that's what we've got to work with.

[–]IceRollMenu2 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The point is that it's not our fault if people irrationally dislike us. That's their fault if they fail to think reasonably.

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you think not abusing animals is just little knitting, you need a neurological examination.

[–]carloscarlsonvegan 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I understand that he did it with an 'aw shucks' kind of attitude that makes him seem like a nice guy. But he's wrong. We're supposed to hold his hand and not tell him that he's wrong when he's wrong? Why because he jumped over to this board?

The negative stereotypes about vegans will exist no matter what, they have nothing to do with what we say to a dairy farmer. It's not our job to sugarcoat how awful we see these normalized practices. There is no nice way to say that people's food is reprehensible.

May I remind you that this guy makes his living TORTURING ANIMALS.

He said dumb stuff on a vegan board and it was downvoted. That's how reddit works.

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hear hear. I disagree insofar as we do affect stereotypes with our behavior, but OP here is asking that we bend over backwards to support a fucking animal abuser like it's nothing... "How dare you downvote that gentle man". "Who are we to condemn such a farmer?" -No, who are we not to condemn such a farmer?

[–]andjokRadical Preachy Vegan 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I was commenting in the AMA thread and got this response from someone:

If /r/vegan is as obnoxious as the behavior in this AMA by the vegan down vote brigade, no thanks. I don't think /r/vegan has done itself any favors.

I read that and just thought, "Ahhh shit. I went overboard." Part of it likely had to do with the fact that me and others referred to the process of artificial insemination as rape. We may feel justified in calling it that, but we (including me) must remember that for those who don't already agree with us, using such strong and emotionally charged terms isn't always a good idea. It just makes people write us off as insensitive and crazy. So in the future I will try to explain why it is immoral without using such terms, and I hope others will agree with me.

I know it's easy to get fired up and passionate about people who exploit animals and see nothing wrong with it, but when the majority of the world is against us, we have to stay cool.

[–]janewashington 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I am not saying I am cool with the insemination process, but it is probably one of the least concerning (to me, personally) aspects of how we treat cows exploited for dairy. I am always a bit puzzled when I see vegans focus on this.

I can kind of understand how it looks to omnivores because in the more extreme forms, it is how I respond as well. I definitely think cows have the ability to suffer from fear, pain, and separation from those they care for. To the extent that insemination is painful or scary, I think they can suffer from it. I am not convinced they can experience sexual violation in the way a human would.

Not that this justifies doing it in any way.

[–]andjokRadical Preachy Vegan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree. I personally only addressed it because the person I responded to seemed confused about others mentioning rape in regards to artificial insemination so I explained how it was.

[–]okrahtime 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It just makes people write us off as insensitive and crazy

Most people I know consider vegans overly sensitive.

[–]andjokRadical Preachy Vegan 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

They probably see us as overly sensitive about non-human animals and insensitive when it comes to human problems.

[–]themodredditneedsvegan newbie 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Yea you're probably right about artificial insemination=rape does come across as very harsh. Recently I've been trying to not make that connection for the reason you state. I will call artificial insemination giving a bull a handjob then putting the sperm on a metal rod and sticking it up another cows vagina though. That way the omni doesn't have the "you just compared artificial insemination to rape!" appeal to emotion argument, but it's hard not to think of it as bestiality/rape when it's put in such a straight forward manner.

[–]KerSanvegan 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (1子コメント)

As a general rule, I don't use the word "rape" when I'm explaining or defending veganism. It's just too provocative. It stops people from listening, which is the opposite of the intended effect. I instead talk about why I think breeding animals is wrong. I don't accept the principle that life is a commodity that can just be produced like a pencil in a factory.

I also don't refer to modern animal agriculture as a holocaust. I think that's an extremely accurate comparison, but it's counter-productive. I instead talk about "a billion land animals every week". The number speaks for itself.

[–]TakeTheLemonsmostly vegan 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

People still don't take human rape seriously or have a clear understanding of what consent is. It's not really surprising that using the word in the context of animals sends them into full defense mode.

[–]andjokRadical Preachy Vegan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good idea. It's much harder to argue over terms when you explain the process in plain detail like that.

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The fucking guy said it himself: cows get raped, so it doesn't matter if he does the same.

[–]funkalunaticvegan 38 ポイント39 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Maybe if we all ask politely enough it will stop the livestock holocaust!

[–]mo0k 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

No! We can be rude but we MUST NOT USE THE DOWNVOTE ARROW! Think of all the animals we can save if we upvote ignorant comments that support animal abuse!

[–]blindpandacubvegan 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Like all those Facebook likes saved those dying children!

[–]Toughgetweird 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not an agree/disagree lever - if you use it like you'll convince no one of anything. Rather, consider the opportunity for critical discussion points to be raised. If you're going to convince anyone level-headed of your point of view, that would be the way to do it.

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

We don't need to be rude. My problem with OP here though is that instead of condemning animals abuse, he/she said we weren't nice enough... talk about getting your priorities wrong. It's incumbent on us to call a spade a spade, not with verbal abuse, but to speak against bullshit, & downvote bullshit. "I'm so ashamed"... & yet, a guy speaking in support of abusing cows is "just fine"; not even worthy of a single word said against that. What the fuck.

[–]infringement153vegan newbie 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (1子コメント)

As long as we're only 1-3% of the population, asking politely is basically the only thing we have.

[–]confusedstudent3 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Paul Goodman, in "Of One Blood" (a historical account of the roots and development of the antislavery movement in the US), concluded that at the height of the antislavery movement, 1% of the population was involved. What made them so effective, he also concluded, was a strong and confident message rather than a weak one.

If anything, we need to be even more like the "angry, preachy vegan" than not. Especially if we organize ourselves into a collective social justice movement and move beyond potluck activism.

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's going to take a lot more than that, but putting people down isn't the way to do it. (and yes, I caught your sarcasm.)

[–]paralleloscram 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Bigoted, condescending and dismissive comments will always get downvotes from me. It doesn't matter how prevalent this opinion is or who is saying them. Shitty comments are shitty comments.

[–]borahorzagobuchol 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Seriously. This guy started extremely condescending.

gannet-on-a-rock:

Stop hiding over here and come and talk to me. You might learn something.

When techn0scho0lbus gave an entirely civil reply that nonetheless stood up for vegans:

Keep in mind that we are not vegans because we don't know much about animals. It's the opposite, we are vegans because we've learned about animals.

The dairy guy responded with even more condescension and threw in some sarcasm to boot.

gannet-on-a-rock:

Oh sorry. You know everything about animals. My bad.

At that point his comment easily qualifies as rude and nonconstructive behavior worthy of a downvote in my book.

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And OP here is accusing us of not being nice enough. Maybe I missed some verbal abuse: I didn't pour through the thread, but what the fuck. The guy was speaking openly in support of abuse, & we're expected to just sit & read like, "I respect your opinion." That's worse than just stupid.

[–]rinabean 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You can't make people be vegan. You really can't. It's interesting to me that few long-term vegans agree with you, and the only people who do agree are new vegans or non-vegans. That says a lot to me. It's obvious that veganism doesn't need to seem more appealing and friendly or how did these new vegans get here? Fact is, the problem with veganism is the difficulty. It's difficult to admit you've been doing something shameful. It's difficult to tell people you care deeply about that you no longer want to eat your 'favourite' foods together. It's difficult to be hungry and you can't just buy food like everyone around you, you've got to either prepare something or eat something that's not a proper meal like fruit + crisps. That is the reason people don't like vegans and don't want to be vegan. It's not because we're mean lol.

I have been vegetarian since my teens and vegan for 5 years. When I was vegetarian I was attracted to veganism because I knew it was right and I was repelled because it made me feel bad about myself and I knew it would be a difficult lifestyle to lead. And what I consciously thought and said was 'vegans are sooo mean and they just hate people (for doing things they believe are morally wrong and personally abstain from)... so mean'. Because that's easy, like being vegetarian is easy. It's easy to make someone's moral problem with you into a personal thing about how mean they are. Nobody in the world would become vegan because we were nice to an animal abuser. And especially, no-one will become vegan because we didn't downvote an animal abuser on a website!! They will come to it themselves as long as we keep reminding them that veganism is a possibility.

[–]alawaRadical Preachy Vegan 27 ポイント28 ポイント  (21子コメント)

Oh please, if I went on to /r/bacon and posted about veganism I would get downvoted too oblivion. The only difference is we aren't the immoral ones.

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Oh please, if I went on to /r/bacon[1] and posted about veganism I would get downvoted too oblivion.

So that makes it okay for us to do it as well?

[–]alawaRadical Preachy Vegan 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (4子コメント)

We are extremely justified. If one of us posted to /r/bacon, at least we would have the good intention of saving animals. Why would a dairy farmer post in /r/vegan, a community of people who boycott the dairy industry, and not expect downvotes? Especially with a shitty attitude like "You might learn something". If someone has the opinion that they can abuse animals, I will not respect it.

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

How do you feel about the saying: "an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind?"

In my opinion, if someone punches me in the face, I have no justification to punch them back.

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm sorry but this "everyone's opinion is equally valid" bullshit has got to go.

[–]alawaRadical Preachy Vegan 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Me downvoting him for sharing his shitty opinion is nothing in comparison to the pain he has caused animals. Its hardly "an eye for an eye" In a fair world this dairy farmer would be locked up the same way anyone who abuses dogs would.

[–]eating2 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't understand how you can see it as the same thing.

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Have some vegan cheese with your whine.

[–]KerSanvegan 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

For the record, I downvoted precisely one comment of his (you can probably guess which one) and upvoted several of them. I generally do not vote on reddit comments unless I have a strong opinion on its usefulness (as opposed to its agreeableness), and I would advise others to use the same principle.

But I don't think you need to be ashamed, /u/DPaluche. I think that reasonable people will be able to see that strong emotions are at play, and I think unreasonable people would hold those stereotypes regardless of what we actually do. I don't think you should hold vegans responsible for the stereotypes about vegans.

[–]theuntamedshrewvegan newbie 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I did not participate in the conversation with the dairy farmer but I am not ashamed. We are Vegan because it is immoral to harm, kill or exploit animals. Note I did not say 'we believe' but simply that it is immoral. Why do we need to listen to people who want to come on this sub to try to influence us to ignore the moral truth of Veganism? If the negative stereotype we are reinforcing is that we don't want to listen to justifications from people who profit off the suffering and death of animals than great. I'll own that stereotype. Hell, put it on a tee-shirt and I'll wear it.

[–]MuleDeerStalker 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

OP, don't be ashamed of the sub you all have here. I mostly lurk on this sub and others because I enjoy reading opposing view points to my own, it's a way to keep my own beliefs and opinions grounded, as do many others I'm sure. The few times I have commented on posts as both a livestock producer and a hunter they have been received mostly with polite and respectful replies. Overall I feel your community on Reddit is better behaved than the average, although I will agree that this deal with the Dairy Farmer wasn't the best example on how most here respond to others from outside this sub.

[–]KerSanvegan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm actually really happy to have read this. Thanks for posting.

[–]rinabean 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"I abuse and kill animals and I enjoy your nicey nicey posts OP, keep at it! :)"

Oh my god. Is this what it comes down to? Who cares if people go vegan or not as long as they enjoy our posts. Who cares if this place is full of animal abusers as long as we don't downvote them.

[–]Sojourner_Truth 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If people come in with stupid opinions, fuck em. Right in the ear.

[–]infringement153vegan newbie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree completely. People will build a mental wall and be completely unable to take any of us seriously if we lash out every time they express an opinion we disagree with. It's important to be approachable and understanding to anyone who wants to learn about veganism and why we do what we do.

[–]themodredditneedsvegan newbie 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I agree, especially in the context of that particular thread. A dairy farmer was taking questions on /r/vegan, of course we all disagree with her/his views. It's a very small problem but I don't like having to click on the tiny plus sign just to continue reading the dialogue. Not saying we should upvote it for visibility but I think that our disagreement is implied. When a comment is at -2, I think we get the point, no need to downvote to oblivion.

Yes, if I were to post about veganism in the bacon subreddit of course it's gonna be downvoted. Since when did "if /r/bacon does it so should we" become the way we operate?

Now in a real life conversation I'll downvote the hell out of someone if they give me crap about being a vegan, with my words. Sometimes I'll even interrupt them when the start to say "but if the cow was raised humanely... BOOOOOO, nope, I know what you're gonna say and you're wrong". Then explain why, but it's different on reddit because of reddiquette.

Also, if someone here makes a post "Don't plants have feelings too?", please downvote the hell out of it. Those posts are worthless here, that person obviously hasn't put much thought at all into veganism. If we do get a dairy farmer or hunter on here trying to have a discussion, I don't think it's a good idea to downvote them so much their comments become hidden (as long as they are polite, if they're being vitriolic it should be downvoted). I don't have a problem with downvoting rude comments, but when the dairy farmer says that cows don't mind when their baby is taken away, just explain why they're wrong.

No one's gonna be like "damn, /r/vegan downvoted the hell out of that dairy farmer, that was courageous of them to stand up for their beliefs. Gonna eat some spinach now."

Disclaimer: I'm not extremely passionate about this topic, not ashamed of /r/vegan, but I do agree with OP.

[–]The_Withheld_Namevegan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oooh, DPaluche is ashamed... a single tear rolls down my eye. Don't downvote farmers, they're honorable people... yeah right.

The guy said he doesn't care about abusing animals, in so many words, so you know what? We don't need to be rude, but we don't need to act like he's doing good work: I'm be damned if I'm going to just sit there & read bullshit without saying something.

"They get raped anyway, so, what I do is fine." -This is the kind of shit we're talking about this cunt saying. Excuse my foul language. Not cunt. Scalawag. Dirty scoundrel.

"Some cry when you take their calves away but eventually they stop & just care about food." -That's animal abuse & I'm not going to just sit there & read that evil shit like nothing happened.

You're ashamed... hey, I don't know what others were saying, but he "stuck his neck out"?! Oooh, what a hero... such a great guy, with such courage. The fuck.

[–]MmmmmThaiFood 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I'd like to say something as a non vegan.... I have respect for vegans who are able to eat a vegan diet because of their beliefs. They do a hard thing in completely changing their diet and going against the majority.

I recently had a discussion with some vegans about why they are vegan and their beliefs. I was never rude or threw personal attacks. As soon as I disagreed with them (politely) they started calling me a terrible person and being quite rude.

This display certainly made me lose respect for them. I understand they are trying to spread a message, but when they do it in such an emotional and insulting way, they are going to find it much harder to convince people they are right.

I did a lot of research after that discussion, and asked some further questions about the impact of crop farming on the environment and they refused to discuss it with me.

If they are going to ask my opinions on slaughter, living conditions and my own personal beliefs, they need to be able to do the same without attacking me.

Being nice and polite will always win out over being rude and abrasive.

[–]sambiosisvegan 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I wish people would ask me questions like that!!

I have a fitness account on facebook and a pro athlete, that I looked up to, made a post that slammed vegans the other day. He called us all judgemental, accused us of pushing our beliefs on people and stereotyped us as thinking that anyone who eats meat is a murderer. The post got pretty ugly. He claimed he was only facilitating a discussion and that it wasn't meant to hurt anyone. I PMed him and said that if he really wanted to know, why didn't he just ask a vegan? I invited him to ask me anything. Did he do that? Nope. I got involved in the thread. He continued to slam me even though his meat-eating friends were agreeing with how I presented my opinion and I was unfriended.

That really got me thinking... if people really want to know why vegans do what they do... why don't they just ask us? I haven't had a single person ask me why I do what I do. It's frusterating. If people have a problem with what I am doing, they call me names, tell me I have no right to "push my beliefs" on other people, or twist my words around to make it look like I am personally attacking them. If you're the kind, accepting person you claim to be, just freaking ask :P

Some vegans will be asshats. I've been working on not being an asshat because I know that's not going to earn my opinions, beliefs or lifestyle any respect.

[–]IceRollMenu2 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Man, if only I didn't have to account for all things all vegans said in all conversations! Things would be so much easier if we were actual individual people!

[–]MmmmmThaiFood 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I understand what you are saying. I'm not saying that I wouldn't still talk to vegans about their choices and that I have just decided "No they are wrong", but it certainly means I would be less likely to start that conversation again.

[–]justin_timeforcakevegan 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just an FYI, if you start asking vegans about "their choices" we are going to take that as you expressing an interest in going vegan yourself. So, if that's not the reason for your questions, and you are just looking to satisfy your curiosity, kindly stop taking advantage of our willingness to help and just refer to google instead.

[–]dogdiarrheavegan newbie 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just went through the thread and the farmer dude acted like an asshat, pretended to have expertise where he does not (there is no reason to believe a farmer is a judge on whether cows have emotions), and acted pretty disrespectful to vegans and vegetarians as well. I'd say he got more respect than he deserved with some of those replies. Basically he's a troll with credentials, big ducking deal.

Edit: also cows don't have emotions, trust me I'm a farmer, trivializes the arguments for veganism. Seriously, duck that guy, why should I care if he was discouraged from coming here. I don't want him here.

[–]Ariyas108vegan 20+ years 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

you are discouraging others, you are reinforcing stereotypes

Citations needed on both counts.

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Good point! I can provide no proof for either of these claims. I can only suppose that someone out there saw the thread and said to themselves, "wow, I'm never going to try and talk to /r/vegan after how they responded to /u/gannet-on-a-rock" or something like that.

[–]ReddSwabianvegan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

you are discouraging him and others with differing opinions from coming here to talk to us

Oh, well. Why would they? And why would i being interested in having them here? If i want some place just to be vegan without having non-vegans poking around that could be my save haven. I can discuss literally anywhere about veganism. But here?

I don't think they would like it if we go to /r/bacon (i just made that up, but it seems to exist) and talk to them about veganism. It's just something you don't do.

I don't talk about the dairy farmer, i talk in general.

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Why would i being interested in having them here?

Maybe this is just me, but I really like talking to people who are skeptical about veganism, or are flat out against it. (assuming they're interested in having a discussion about it.) And... I dunno. I don't like the idea of putting a "vegans only" sign on the door. But that's just me! Maybe /r/vegan doesn't want to socialize with the naysayers.

I don't think they would like it if we go to /r/bacon[1] (i just made that up, but it seems to exist) and talk to them about veganism.

That's not what happened here. One of us started a thread ridiculing the guy, which is a pretty good excuse for him to come over here and start a conversation, don't you think?

[–]spicymakiplant-based diet 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Reddit is designed for people to like what they like and dislike what they hate. :-|

[–]DPaluchevegan 20+ years[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

No argument there.