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Discussion: Possible response to awful admins? (self.againstmensrights)

flyingisenoughPaula Elamef が 投稿

So in the wake of all the unspeakably horrid brigading over in /r/blackladies, DualPollux has been shadowbanned for the "crime" of being upset about racism. This latest incident just highlights how uncaring the admins of Reddit are and to what degree they allow and even support the general hateful bigot population. Racist and other bigoted subreddits are allowed to exist and brigade other subs with near impunity, even when admins (the people who could put a stop to them) are given overwhelming evidence proving this.

Now, usually the brigading of another sub wouldn't affect AMR directly and thus I wouldn't be posting, but this one does. We (quite rightly) allied ourselves in solidarity with /r/blackladies, and DualPollux was a mod of this sub and a valued member of the community.

So, I think it's time we did something.

This thread, from the comments of the AMR post of the above link, brings up the very real possibility of us getting the media involved and fighting to rid the Reddit community of harmful, bigoted organized groups and brigades, largely by putting pressure on the admins to be more proactive in preventing hate. This comment in particular brings up the possibility of using a Twitter hashtag to get the message out.

This post is just asking for everyone's thoughts on the matter. I figured if we can get everyone to talk about what action we can take, something could finally get done. So chat away, I guess.

Full credit for these ideas, of course, goes to the original commenters, particularly Soltheron, tubonjics1, and gavinbrindstar. I hope none of them begrudges me taking the initiative in bringing their discussion to the attention of AMR at large.

EDITED TO ADD: User MRAGoAway_ has pointed out that there is already a fairly recent Daily Dot piece on the r/blackladies situation, and it's fairly comprehensive. Now the question becomes: is this enough?

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD: This is kind of late, but I neglected to do this last night and am adding it now in the hopes that some mods will see this. /u/PsyAndSnoop is attempting to organize a sort of mod union across multiple subs that can act as a united front against bigotry and the admins. If any mods see this, please consider contacting /u/PsyAndSnoop.

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[–]chewinchawingumwrites postmodern cultural marxist sophistry rational discourse 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (10子コメント)

We might want to contact The Daily Dot. If they are indeed doing some kind of story on this, we should make sure they hear from both sides at the least.

[–]MRAGoAway_Social Justice Weekend Warrior 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (6子コメント)

FYI, the Daily Dot already covered this story.

I have said this before, but I think the real answer is to find another social media site, or possibly even get a group of people to host an alternate version of reddit. The software is open source.

The reason I propose this extreme solution: reddit's management has explicitly said that it plans to use reddit gold to get profitable. I suspect that plays a large factor in how some users and subreddits seem untouchable, despite flagrantly flouting the rules. Generally speaking, reddit's shittiest users gild the most. More than one bottom-feeding subreddit has been told that a good way to stay off the chopping block is to generate a lot of gilded posts. This problem is twofold, because a lot of higher quality users refuse to gild because they feel ambivalent toward reddit as a host.

It is understandable that reddit doesn't want to enforce good netiquette more strictly. No hosts do. Policing of any kind is expensive, and it's a no-win for the host, because every single user will think the rules are either too strict or too relaxed (or both). However, most popular social networking websites do police both content and conduct, because the community demands it. Reddit's community demanded it. Not only did reddit's admins not even bother to respond, they have done nothing about /r/thefappening. Actions speak louder than words. Reddit is completely okay with being a site for the shittiest users on the web.

Reddit is free because we, the users, are its product. The product needs to separate. Let the bottom feeders remain on the site that caters to them. Let the quality product move somewhere where the hosts value the quality and make an effort to enforce it.

EDIT: I like this idea too, and it's not as extreme. This could probably be done with a browser enhancement. Let reddit see just how much money it's missing.

[–]chewinchawingumwrites postmodern cultural marxist sophistry rational discourse 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oooh, I kind of like the idea in your edit, especially combined with an organized boycott of reddit gold.

[–]flyingisenoughPaula Elamef[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

You raise some really excellent points, and I can't say I disagree. So long as Reddit remains open to hostile, bigoted people and communities, and as long as its business plan depends on keeping those people and communities, there isn't much the admins will do.

Are there any viable alternate Reddits out there already? If not, and if nobody makes one, I'm not sure what site would be a decent alternative. Tumblr is my first choice, of course, but discussion and general setup doesn't work in nearly the same way there as it does here. Although at least there we can be our SJW selves in peace.

[–]MRAGoAway_Social Justice Weekend Warrior 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I thought I saw a couple suggestions in the original thread, but I can't see them now. It might have been in /r/subredditdrama. I can do some research if there is any interest.

I really like the tomato idea I linked to in my edit above. Reddit has been featured negatively in the press many times, and the most it's ever motivated reddit to do is to move the embarrassment to a slightly less prominent position. I recently learned that creepshots still exists, it just pretends to have a different purpose. Reddit will not be cajoled or shamed into decency. Money is the only thing that will make the leaders take notice.

EDIT: we should keep in mind that the admins are not really the decision makers here. The decision makers are the people who pay their salaries. I would be surprised if reddit's owners don't know about the harassment /r/blackladies suffered, and about the open letter. It was covered by The Daily Dot, and the owners must read every article about reddit as a matter of course. So we must conclude that they do not care. Most likely they directed administrators not to reply at all, hoping that it would blow over.

[–]flyingisenoughPaula Elamef[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I like the idea of tomato-ing, as well, and that gives me another thought. Should we try and bring this discussion to other subs as well? r/blackladies for one, of course, and perhaps SRS and related subs as well, or other subs who co-signed that letter. If we can come up with a solution, it can only help to have more people working on it, especially if it's as work-intensive as the tomato system.

[–]MRAGoAway_Social Justice Weekend Warrior 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes! Someone above said they are working to organize the moderators on like-minded subreddits so they can speak as one voice. Maybe these two things need to come together.

I don't think the tomato idea would even be that hard! If we can get five or ten developers committed to doing it, I bet that would be enough. Is there a subreddit dedicated to developing reddit extensions and bots?

It would be nice to see a groundswell of support before developing this feature so we have some promise it would get used, BUT I think we can move forward regardless. It might even be better to get a small group of people who are truly invested get started with it, rather than weed though a bunch of half-hearted offers to help.

I am actually very excited about this idea.

[–]flyingisenoughPaula Elamef[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Someone above said they are working to organize the moderators on like-minded subreddits so they can speak as one voice.

Yeah, I saw that. I'm hoping some of our mods did as well.

Now, I don't know anything about programming, but if we can make this work, I say go for it. Talk to whoever first suggested tomato-ing, get a discussion going.

[–]flyingisenoughPaula Elamef[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That sounds like a decent lead. Maybe try PMing the reporter in question?

[–]HeadpoolGynocentric Fascist Mangina 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Apparently he's already talked to someone in AMRSucks.

Couldn't hurt though.

[–]flyingisenoughPaula Elamef[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Him having talked to someone in AMRsucks is EXACTLY why we need to make ourselves available for comment as well.

[–]CaptainAirstripOne 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The mainstream media would, I think, be horrified if they saw the type of racist language used in the white supremacist subreddits. I certainly was, I can barely stand to look at them.

You expect that kind of thing from extremist sites such as Stormfront, but reddit is relatively popular and needs mass market appeal - 'the front page of the internet'.

Attention from major media outlets is the only thing that ever forces reddit to take action, not least because it could scare off potential investors.

There was a really great quote from an unknown redditor in this story from The Atlantic about /r/niggers being banned for brigading /r/blackgirls -

Getting /r/niggers for brigading is a bit like getting Al Capone for tax evasion. It may not be false, but it doesn't quite capture the whole picture.

[–]PsyAndSnoop 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm trying to start a community of moderators who can work together to ensure better moderation across subreddits who take part, and who can speak with one voice as an organised group with the admins. If you're interested PM me and I'll send an invite.

[–]LeCoqUser 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Do automated tools replicating the bans all over the affiliated subreddits already exist?

[–]PsyAndSnoop 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I hadn't thought about that. I'll send you an invite when I'm next in front of my computer.

[–]Aerikis not a lady; actually is tumor 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (6子コメント)

a new blogpost reveals a new reddit feature: when you report a link now, a little thing comes up allowing users to cite a reason. Including spam, vote manipulation, and a few others.

but one that sticks out to me is "breaking reddit"

vague to the point of uselessness, it seems designed to be abused. in a very particular way...

[–]whey_ 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

What does breaking reddit even mean?

[–]Aerikis not a lady; actually is tumor 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (1子コメント)

interfering with the culture of racist and sexist subreddits by not tolerating their brigading, it seems. that's what the admin who banned dualpollox directly defined it as.

[–]whey_ 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I was hoping it meant someone was actually breaking reddit... oh well I can dream.

[–]Wrecksomething 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I assume reported comments are still handled by subreddit moderators, not admins. No idea what they intended with "breaking reddit" but also don't think it will cause any harm since mods will judge comments the same as ever.

[–]whey_ 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It just sounds so weird and out of place to me. Like they just wanted to add another option and just went with this vague option.

[–]flyingisenoughPaula Elamef[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That could mean literally anything. That's horrifying.

[–]whey_ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (7子コメント)

Not trying to be a downer, but I don't think this story will get much traction since this issue is hard to follow unless you're a redditor. Saying reddit is hosting CP or leaked nudes is simple and non-redditors would understand it right away. But this isn't that simple and I don't think it will go anywhere unless there's a way to simplify it in a way that non-redditors would be able to grasp after one read. As it stands now, even regular redditors had some trouble understanding what exactly happened (me included).

I'm not saying we can't get media attention, but IMO it's not going to get off the ground until someone figures out a way to make this story easier to understand.

[–]flyingisenoughPaula Elamef[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (5子コメント)

That's a good point.

The way I see it, the most concise way to convey the story has three parts:

  1. Racists were invading a community on Reddit in which they were not welcome.

  2. Victims of that racism appealed to site administrators for help.

  3. Site administrators refused help and then punished the victims who were upset about the racism.

I totally get what you're saying about simplification, and if people still don't think the above is simple enough and if we can't come up with something simpler, maybe alerting the media is the wrong way to go. But my assertion that we have to do SOMETHING still stands, even if it isn't in the form of such a relatively massive response. Somebody has to check the admins' power. Who watches the Watchmen, you know?

[–]whey_ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (3子コメント)

But my assertion that we have to do SOMETHING still stands, even if it isn't in the form of such a relatively massive response. Somebody has to check the admins' power. Who watches the Watchmen, you know?

Oh I definitely agree. I was just offering my point of view. I'm sure we can come together as a community and figure out the best way bring attention to it.

Honestly, if nothing else, this story should at least show everyone how crappy some of the admins are when it comes to responding to complaints. No matter what her intentions were or what she meant, her reply definitely sounds like "I'm siding with the hate groups, fuck off lol" and it comes across as personal rather than neutral and professional. I'm used to reading other bullshit responses from admins and mods, but at least they try to appear neutral. This response was just flat-out blatantly shitty.

Since we're just spitballing ideas, maybe if we can't find a way to frame the racist story, we could try to frame it as reddit having a shitty way of handling their community? I'm just brainstorming, feel free to ignore.

[–]flyingisenoughPaula Elamef[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Since we're just spitballing ideas, maybe if we can't find a way to frame the racist story, we could try to frame it as reddit having a shitty way of handling their community?

I think we could definitely frame it that way. The reason to frame it in terms of racism specifically is a) that's the most recent and obvious example, and b) it would help the narrative to have a specific story to explain. But if we can come up with enough examples of other instances in which the admins had trouble reigning in (or refused to reign in) the hateful/obtuse side of Reddit, we can totally include that in whatever response we come up with.

[–]whey_ 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But if we can come up with enough examples of other instances in which the admins had trouble reigning in (or refused to reign in) the hateful/obtuse side of Reddit, we can totally include that in whatever response we come up with.

I'm sure we can come up with plenty. I know I've seen plenty in my time here, it's more of taking the time to find all of the threads and screenshots. Which is hard at the moment since I'm about to go to sleep and my brain is barely coherent :D But trust me there's plenty of examples lol.

[–]Misogynist-ist 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It also goes back to racism- a group's targeted racist actions towards a minority safe space. Otherwise, to the outside world, it just looks like Reddit having a fight within itself. But the racism? The racism is real, and it's being enabled by outspoken people like DualPollux getting shadowbanned.

I mean, let's assume the Reddit admins are not actually racist. But they're pretty much letting the racists win and get under the skin of a community that has done nothing to them.

[–]Misogynist-ist 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is like when an admin said 'we don't really ban for rape threats'. But they ban for brigading over fake internet points.

The way I see it, Reddit's admins (and maybe not all of them, but at least the ones who've been selected or selected themselves to handle these situations) have done nothing to discourage behavior that is in direct opposition with the spirit of the site, especially this whole 'disrupting communities' thing they're on about.

[–]proudbreeder 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The bottom line is that reddit admins participate in discrimination.

[–]LeCoqUser 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (9子コメント)

So, I have posted requests to support the mods of /r/blackladies to some of the technical subreddits I was talking about earlier and felt were safe and supportive and I am now experiencing first hand people making insane excuses to justify the status quo.

  • free speech
  • does not concern us, why bother
  • don't give trolls attention
  • sexual violence / race related subreddits will always attract trolls: what's the point of doing anything?
  • it's not that bad anyways

[–]flyingisenoughPaula Elamef[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

This is precisely why we need to try and either change the attitudes of the Reddit community or move our communities somewhere else.

[–]LeCoqUser 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I have had mods telling me that they acknowledge the problem but do not want to co-sign by fear of attracting bullies in their (so far) safe community. I cannot blame them.

[–]thiez 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

What did you expect their reactions to be?

[–]LeCoqUser -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

As I said: they felt safe in the sense that they were absolutely no incident on them AFAICT.

[–]thiez 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

So if these communities are safe, and the people there also feel safe, and there aren't any incidents there, why is it a surprise that they are okay with the status quo? What makes their reasons (or 'excuses') 'insane'? What did you hope to accomplish by posting there?

Is it really wrong not to want to talk about issues that are not relevant to technical issues on a technical subreddit? People visit subreddits such as /programming to read about programming related topics. If you had posted there asking about development of, say, a program that allows moderators of different subreddits to share banlists, I imagine you would have gotten interested and helpful reactions. Instead it seems you made no effort at all to connect to the interests of these communities, almost as if you only posted there to confirm your preconceptions about these communities rather than attempting to gain their support.

[–]LeCoqUser 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (3子コメント)

What did you hope to accomplish by posting there?

An expression of solidarity with their fellow nerds who because of their skin color / gender / sexual orientation are harassed on other subreddits?

[–]thiez 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

As long as they're not being harassed for being nerds... The fact that some people are being harassed somewhere on the internet for their skin color / gender / orientation is completely irrelevant to a technical subreddit, even if some of these people also happen to be nerds. And besides, not everyone on a technical subreddit is a nerd, why the negative stereotyping?

While these issues are important, they are off-topic for the subreddits you chose. People who are interested in these issues can (and will) visit the subreddits where such issues are on-topic when they want to discuss them.

[–]LeCoqUser 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

is completely irrelevant to a technical subreddit

Is it? We are making the decision to gather on reddit, have meaningful technical discussions on reddit, hell even some "famous" PL people are regular here and take part in the debates. In other words, we are attracting people interested in these matters to reddit. It is not reasonable to do that, claim to want to be inclusive as a community and, at the same time, not support reforms that would make other subreddits, which do not have the chance to be ignored by asshats, safe.

And besides, not everyone on a technical subreddit is a nerd, why the negative stereotyping?

Isn't it obvious that it is not meant as a derogative term when it's used by someone from the community itself? If you felt uncomfortable because of that term, I'll happily remove it.

[–]thiez -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

As far as I am concerned the different subreddits might as well be different websites. They may have a common interface, and they all have 'reddit.com' in the URL, but there is no true 'reddit-community', and if there was, I would have no interest in being a part of it. The way I see it, if people (famous or not) are posting on, say, /r/programming or /r/haskell, they're not there because they're interested in reddit in its entirety, they are there because they are interested in that subreddit. I for one do not visit /r/programming because I want to read about /r/blackladies. If that interested me I would be visiting that subreddit instead.

It is not reasonable to do that, claim to want to be inclusive as a community and, at the same time, not support reforms that would make other subreddits, which do not have the chance to be ignored by asshats, safe.

I do not agree. But even if I did, a technical subreddit would still not be the right place to discuss it.

Isn't it obvious that it is not meant as a derogative term when it's used by someone from the community itself?

Most of the stereotypical nerd-qualities are hardly something to aspire to. It conjures images of immature and socially awkward white boys who spend their days in their parents basement. Suppose everyone in /r/programming started referinng to one another as nerds: that may well scare off those who do not identify with the stereotype, even those interested in programming. People encouraging the stereotype are causing the /r/programming community to become less inclusive. In general I think subreddits that are about a shared interest are less likely to attract trols than those that are about a shared identity, because the latter encourages us-vs-them thinking. A good example of the latter is this subreddit, because it is defined by being against another group.

Anyway, I'd prefer if you didn't remove the nerd comment, since I prefer comment history to be intact.