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What happens when /r/TheIdesOfLight, now known as /r/DualPollux, goes into /r/asianamerican to discuss Affirmative Action? Lots of text.....so much text. (np.reddit.com)

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[–]lurker093287h 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (7子コメント)

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I don't understand what her claims were. In that thread /u/TheIdesOfLight is for affirmative action because that means higher rates of black and latino people are accepted to university and especially prestigious ones. /r/asianamerican by and large doesn't like affirmative action because that means that less Asian Americans are accepted to universities (and especially prestigious ones). Is that right?

(TheIdesOfLight) Has it occurred to anyone to do some activism to fix Affirmative Action to benefit Asian Americans rather than try and wrest it out of the hands of those who do benefit?

(another person) What do you propose? I for one cannot think of any way this could be done. Right now, without affirmative action, the Asian population at UC Berkeley is at 40%. While the zero-sum nature of college admissions as a whole is debatable, the admissions of any single university is a zero-sum game.

[no answer]

Also this bit. was interesting to me.

(user) Why not ask for Affirmative Action that is based on income rather than race? It will have the same benefits, ie, help the underprivileged black and Latino kids (as well as poor Asians, whites, natives, and everyone else), but do not involve racial discrimination to resolve other racial discrimination.

(ides) Because racism is a system that still exists. Classism is a whole other ballgame. You cannot solve race issues with solutions for class issues.

(user) Race issue and class issue are closely interwoven in society...Would a race based AA have a drastic advantage over income based AA for Blacks and Latinos in getting POOR black kids into good schools so they can break the cycles? Because it sure as hell has a drastic negative effect on Asians.

(ides) Intersectionality. Look it up...

(user) You can have AA based on income, which do not ignore class, it does not favor or discriminate one race directly, but it does indirectly favor segments of a racial group (ie, the poor blacks and Latinos) more. Neither of two will solve every problem, but ask yourself which one brings more solidarity across racial lines, which one is more fair.

(ides) INTERSECTIONALITY. LOOK IT UP.

(user) [gives description of intersectionality] Its funny you keep throwing that word around, when you somehow think a policy that based solely on race (that completely ignores class) is somehow the better solution. Especially when the said policy legalizes racial discrimination against another group. Will income based AA fix every racial issues? No. Will it give large portion of Black and Latino population more opportunities? yes. Is it legalized racial discrimination? No.

One of the most interesting descriptions of US affirmative action policy that I've heard was that it was a kind of compromise to resolve the civil rights era by integrating the black middle class (in the EU sense of the word) into the mainstream US middle class.

[–]typesoshee 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (6子コメント)

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I think that's actually true. It was never meant to help poor people, it was meant to help black people. If it was meant to help poor people, it would help poor white people, which it doesn't. Anyway, scholarships are supposed to help poor people, ideally.

Honestly, it doesn't make sense to me why non-black minorities got mixed up with affirmative action. It IS there to help black people. By that philosophy, it shouldn't help Hispanics. It should hurt all non-black people a little in terms of admissions.

But I suppose what happened was that some non-blacks who were involved in the civil rights movement (Asians were sometimes pretty prominent in the civil rights movement, I think especially in the west coast) got on board, because, well, that makes sense. If you were oppressed, you should be part of affirmative action. It had to have made sense for Asians back in the day. But now it doesn't benefit Asians. Hmm...

Either:

  1. This is injustice and the universities should do true affirmative action where Asian American admission numbers are boosted along with blacks and Hispanics. The government would have to enforce this, probably.

  2. It seems like the universities basically made a judgment on their own that if you started out as a minority in need of Affirmative Action but now have crossed the bar where you "don't really need" affirmative action anymore to get good admissions results, you no longer get the benefit. I don't hear this argument a lot, but I think it's a reasonable one that universities could throw around in their defense. There may still be a lot of racial issues in society but the university can still say, "Well, from our admissions officers' statistics perspective, you have at least won your college admissions battle (or say, the ability for your race to produce high quality high school graduates), and that is a positive step for your race," and you can't really argue against that statement alone. The nasty problem coming out of this though is that Asian American admissions numbers are now being suppressed. The argument that "they are too similar in their credentials" is not invalid for me as long as they're applying that standard to all races, but it's hard to tell if schools really are doing that.

[–]qlube 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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AA has never benefited Asians, as far as I know, because Asians have generally always been "over-represented" in higher education. And this is why AA helps non-Asian minorities (i.e. African-Americans, Latinos, Amerindians), because they are "under-represented" (for the law school application process, we use the term URM).

My guess is that college admissions is highly uncomfortable with a student body that deviates too much from the demographics of the overall US population. So that is why they give a boost to URMs and why Asians get penalized (yes, even relative to whites). Which is kind of ironic when one considers one of the justifications for AA is to correct historical discrimination, which Asians have experienced a lot of compared to, say, Latinos.

Personally, I can't think of any non-racist reason why college admissions would be fine with a student body that is 60% white but not fine with one that is 60% Asian.

[–]lurker093287h 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Honestly, it doesn't make sense to me why non-black minorities got mixed up with affirmative action. It IS there to help black people. By that philosophy, it shouldn't help Hispanics.

I think it does make sense in terms of US communalist politics, groups of people organised along racial (etc) lines will compete for access to the best jobs/university places for middle class and the most affluent members of that group, sometimes instead of pushing for improvements for that group as a whole or poor people as a whole. And also people want to be fair and be seen to be a meritocracy. Now at universities iirc, they sort of weight it so that it's harder for people from certain groups to get in than others (except those who have legacy admissions) and so if black people suddenly started to get accepted at much higher rates, this wouldn't be in their favour.

[–]shabadoop 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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I mean, doesn't this entire problem stem from the US having to wide a variety of university quality? It doesn't seem like nearly as much of an issue in countries where undergrad programs are more egalitarian. I mean, keep your high level grad programs, but it seems best to make sure everyone can access a high level undergrad school without it becoming a massive competition.

[–]typesoshee 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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Well, the main reason is simply due to the heterogeneity of the US population and the political aspect of it. I think most countries either 1. have a relatively homogenous population or 2. if they have a heterogeneous population and institute affirmative action, the political debate isn't as prominent (e.g. no one bothers complaining because it's either considered too entrenched or those who want to complain don't have enough political power).

[–]shabadoop 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Yeah, but the very idea of the Ivy League is so incredibly elitist. It just seems like how old boys' clubs happen.

[–]CatWhisperer5000 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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it would help poor white people, which it doesn't.

What? Dependent status and income are the biggest factors for anyone applying for financial aid.

[–]MrZakalwe 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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LatinXs

Sounds like space Romans to me.

[–]ArchangelleDwarpig 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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When did they change the spelling from Latin@s? Why didn't I get the memo?

[–]lurker093287h 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I thought it sounded like a new wrestling tag team or a super sexy boy band.

[–]vpovio 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Wait, you're telling me that an SRSter went into a safe place for a group of people that doesn't include her and proceeds to make a racist comment and then shit all over the problems of the minority group for that space, but she totes isn't racist?

Well color me surprised!

[–]GunnerGold 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Why is Ides invading an Asian American safe space?

[–]ValedictorianBallergot cancer; SRDs no more 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (9子コメント)

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You're putting words in my mouth, assigning your own meaning to them and then taking offense.

TIOL has literally never done this.

[–]fail_early_fail_soft 19 ポイント20 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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They're derailing her oppression olympics and it isn't fair.

[–]david-me 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (7子コメント)

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Secondly, please for god's sake stop calling us "Blacks". If you can refer to yourself as Asian Americans you can stop with the 'Blacks'. Try 'Black people'.

We're not crackers! We're cracker people!

[–]LeoFail 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (5子コメント)

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I prefer Person of Honkey Decent, but massive shitlord is also acceptable.

[–]fail_early_fail_soft 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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Golf american?

[–]MasterVlerro 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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That's when Tiger Woods appeared.

[–]PrettyBoyBitch 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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LOL

[–]zolfe 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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I'm a PoHD as well.

[–]fail_early_fail_soft 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (4子コメント)

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I wholeheartedly agree that AA's getting fucked in this regard is not okay. Has it occurred to anyone to do some activism to fix Affirmative Action to benefit Asian Americans rather than try and wrest it out of the hands of those who do benefit?

This is an amazing line of thinking. The system fucks asians, so the solution is to lobby for it to benefit them also? Nevermind addressing any unfairness in the situation as a whole, just make sure you get your slice of the pie.

[–]CatWhisperer5000 -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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How is that unreasonable? The exclusion of Asians from AA is AA's biggest problem (imo). How is fixing that a problem? Why tear it down for everyone else instead?

[–]sojm 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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Asians aren't excluded from AA, they're treated the same one every other group is treated. Unfortunately for them, AA punishes people if other people with the same kinda skin are more successful than average.

[–][削除されました]  (2子コメント)

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[deleted]

    [–]Boner4SCP106 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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    I don't think he means it as a racial slur if that's what you mean. Pretty sure he means this.

    [–]autourbanbot 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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    Here's the Urban Dictionary definition of side eye :

    A facial expression expressing one's criticism, disapproval, animosity, or scorn of varying levels of intensity towards another person. Defined by one person looking at the other out of the corner of their eye(s) with a scowl, as their head is turned in a different direction. Often an invitation for a fight or confrontation of some sort. Synonymous expression: "cuttin' your eyes" (at someone). Popular expression (and common occurrence) among urban American populations.

    "Girl, you see that heffa over there givin' me the side eye? She MUST be tryin' to start somethin'."

    about | flag for glitch | Summon: urbanbot, what is something?

    [–][削除されました]  (12子コメント)

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    [deleted]

      [–]Time_to_Drink[S] 34 ポイント35 ポイント  (6子コメント)

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      I believe they call it gentrification

      [–]david-me 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (5子コメント)

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      But she's only half black!

      Also, isn't she French? Why does she care about AA in the U.S?

      [–]WorldOneWon 15 ポイント16 ポイント  (4子コメント)

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      The Oppression Olympics are in town, that's why!

      [–]Pistachiothenut 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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      I hear the white teenage tumblr blog team has been training for this day for the past 2 years!

      [–]mdkss12 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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      gold medal favorites for sure, Pistachio, but keep your eye on the thinprivilege tumblr crowd. they'r certainly a dark horse worth watching.

      [–]winterd 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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      dark horse

      that's racist

      [–]mdkss12 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      and the black delegation making their voices heard loud and clear! is this their year to bring gold back to it's classic home? historically they'v dominated the games here at the Oppression Olympics, but they haven't been the most vocal of the groups represented in past few years.

      [–]Kimber_James 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      Hungry for drama like always.

      [–]dumbsoccerfan 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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      Kinda like how white males frequent /r/blackladies

      [–]zolfe 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      I only do it to see how pissed off they are about Miley Cyrus and Macklemore.

      [–]titsonamongoose -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      Because it's safer than her own neighbourhood?

      [–]FlapjackFreddie 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (12子コメント)

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      She uses zero evidence to back up any claims and is basically getting knocked around by people who are. I love it.

      [–]DemonicBtch -4 ポイント-3 ポイント  (11子コメント)

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      Seems like they mostly acknowledge each other's problems and agree that something should be done about it. Not seeing much verbal violence.

      [–]FlapjackFreddie 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (10子コメント)

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      Here's one:

      http://np.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/1yujng/should_aas_asianamericans_support_aa_affirmative/cfozhrz

      Here's another. There's no "verbal violence" in this one, but one person cites what seems to be a decent source on the material, and the response from Ides is an off-topic blog post.

      http://np.reddit.com/r/asianamerican/comments/1yujng/should_aas_asianamericans_support_aa_affirmative/cfo35aj

      [–]Puffsdangerfield 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (2子コメント)

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      All this stuff aside, if TIOL was shadowbanned, came back and admitted who they are, why are they not shadowbanned again? Wouldn't it be the person and not just the username banned?

      Can someone ELI5?

      [–]IAmAN00bie -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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      Was she SBed? I thought she just deleted her account.

      [–]Puffsdangerfield 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      Nope, she got banned. Not really surprised. A few of the SRSers seem to push a lot of crazy rhetoric and hate speech disguised as PC "fight for equality!"

      Personally, anything that exists on an extreme has the potential of a very scary agenda. She even stated, and I quote "Egalitarians are just diet MRAs who live to scream about Cisphobia and Reverse racism anyway and all while not doing a lick of activism. Fuuuuuuuuuuuck 'em."

      Egalitarian: (adjective)- of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities. "a fairer, more egalitarian society"

      Noun- a person who advocates or supports egalitarian principles

      I think that these people fail to see that a "house divided will fall". We will never see universal fair equality for all until we want fair equality for all. Then again, some people want to be angry and hold onto their hate and pain as if it is their best friend. I just can't justify any proverbial poison drinking while expecting the other to die.

      But I'm preaching to the choir here.

      [–]david-me 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      As a Black person this whole thread is a side eye fest.

      Das Racist!

      [–]ttumblrbots 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      SnapShots: 1

      Readability links are broken for the moment. Stay tuned!

      [–]Rotten_Potato 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      Reading your title I was expecting a full blown subreddit-raid. (/u/ vs /r/)

      [–]redditbots 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      SnapShot

      (Mirror | open source | create your own snapshots)

      [–]HostileIguana 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      "Wow, they were not kidding about this subreddit."

      Who is "they," and what are "they" saying about the sub?

      [–]chaosakita 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      There seem to be a ton of anti racists always complaining about a lack of solidarity from Asians and then are pretty anti Asian themselves. Hmmm...

      [–]Mega_pooh_bear 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

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      Homie this is a reasonable debate. Where is my idesoflight pissing off white people drama that I expected.

      [–]darrylleung 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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      Yeah, it wasn't as dramatic as I thought it would be. SRD grasping at straws on this one. Both sides seemed pretty level. Difference in opinions, sure, but nothing too blatantly offensive (got a little heated at the end.)

      [–]Mega_pooh_bear 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      Cause it linked here that's where that devatal dude came from or whatever.

      [–]DemonicBtch -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      She got a little heated near the bottom. I agree, though. It's interesting to read about AsAm perspectives on AffAc, but not all that dramatic.

      [–]TheLadyEve 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

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      It ruins the brand. It would be like if only ugly homeless people bought starbucks.

      I really hope this was a sarcastic remark. Otherwise, wow.

      [–]FoulMouthedMermaid 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      remember when people "protested" the Abercrombie and Fitch brand by giving their clothing to the "homeless"?

      the level of unexamined disrespect in this comment makes me think of that

      [–]JaydenPope -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

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      It's not hidden that affirmative action benefits white women more than say asians or black minorities. Affirmative action is unfairly biased and broken to the point that some minorities do just give up and continue to live in poverty.

      http://www.ncsu.edu/project/oeo-training/aa/beneficiaries.htm

      http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2013/08/13/white-definitions-merit-and-admissions-change-when-they-think-about-asian-americans

      http://hlrecord.org/?p=15323

      http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2009/08/who_wins_out_when_it_comes_to_affirmative_action.html

      Washington thinks white women benefit too much from AA and actually want to kick them out of the program:

      http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2014/01/white_women_cut_out_of_affirmative_action_preferences.html#ixzz2rXLDb4GE