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Encountered the worst EMTs last night (self.ems)

bitterweasel が 投稿

So 6ish days ago I got in a pretty gnarly dirt bike crash. Broken hand, concussion, probable bruised ribs, I was pretty messed up. I just went to urgent care for the sake of saving money, with the thought that if something got worse I'd head in.

Everything is fine for a couple days aside from the broken index finger on my dominant hand (worst finger to break), but last night things got a little messy. Two factors to mention: I was under the influence of "medicinal" marijuana and I have EMT training (not working so please don't give me flack for the weed).

My heart starting bounding and I started to sweat excessively. I started to feel very short of breath as well. The pain from what I thought was my bruised ribs started to become much more intense. Then I twacked my finger in a door so I figured it'd be a good idea to call up the boys and get reevaluated. Just get some vitals and get a splint for my finger.

The guys roll up and I give them a brief explanation of what's going on. They ask me to sit down and proceed to stand around me in a circle and harass me about what drug I'm on. I'm not an asshole about it but I just say "It's nothing illegal or known to cause harm, it's not relevant unless this is just anxiety related." 5 minutes in and they're still asking me what I've got onboard.

Nobody kneels down to my level. No vitals are taken even though I repeatedly mention my heart palpitations. Finally someone takes my pulse and gets 128. 8 minutes in they take my BP, can't remember what it was. Then after asking me again about the drug, one kneels down and checks my pupils with a pen light. They finally did a visual inspection of the ribs which was my primary concern and nothing was found.

So that's all they do, and then they repeatedly ask me if I want to go to the hospital so they can call an ambulance. I'm like "What do you guys think? I was thinking internal bleeding caused by a broken rib, or maybe an MI brought on by an anxiety attack..." and they just shut me down by saying "We can't determine that without knowing what drug you're on."

Signed the refusal of care form and apologized profusely for wasting their time, as they were quite standoff-ish at that point. Went back to the house to have someone take me to urgent care. Goddamn unprofessional d-bags.

Don't be like them!

EDIT: I could have avoided the situation by admitting I had taken marijuana edibles, but I didn't trust these guys to not relinquish that information to PD if they showed up. Even if they didn't there was no reason for them to have tunnel vision on that issue.

EDIT 2: Not DNR

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[–]David_Parker 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (12子コメント)

.....you we're just a shitty patient. They should have been professional, but you were also just a shitty patient. An MI brought on by an anxiety attack? Seriously?

[–]BeeipParamedic 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (2子コメント)

He signed the DNR. Relax.

[–]Combatmed101AR NREMT/ArmyNG 68W/ EMT-P Student 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The DNR....ah my sides hurt...

[–]bitterweasel[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Oops.

[–]Putin_Me_Like 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's proven that when you have anxiety myocardium tissue dies, triggering an MI and then if you have an emt certification you get this power where you know everything and put others down because they didnt do the same thing you would do

[–]anon5505Glorified Basic a.k.a. A-EMT 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

lol yea, someone having anxiety, chest pain, and just wanting vitals and an opinion all while saying they have drugs on board and not admitting to what it is? Definition of a shitty patient.

[–]Combatmed101AR NREMT/ArmyNG 68W/ EMT-P Student 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

He's made a post about us on SubredditDrama. I think we win?

[–]shotuhwhiskey 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm not saying they're in the right here, but you should have just told them you were using pot. They're not cops and for all they knew you were tripping face and had no idea what you were talking about (ams). Not that how they treated you would have been proper, had that even been the case.

[–]bitterweasel[S] -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I should have but it definitely wasn't necessary. If I were them I would have taken relevant vitals and asked a few questions to determine if I was coherent or not. I would have told them but the local PD has a reputation for being extremely corrupt, and I wouldn't put it past them to create an issue out of the situation.

[–]Spar34 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you have "Emt training" you should know EMS doesn't give a fuck what drug you're on but they need to know for tx. You should've answered them honestly. Be cooperative with EMS and they're much more likely to be cooperative with you. That being said it does sound like their assessment kinda sucked.

[–]Rye22Paramedic FP-C 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Nobody kneels down to my level

You were on some kind of drug, acting sketchy and not giving straight answers. I'd have kept my distance.

[–]GeniepoliceVA - EMTB/ Medic Student 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

How much "EMT training" do you actually have?

Different drugs cause different reactions and their trying to get you to TELL them is going to help determine what's going on in your body. So, I'm in slight agreement that they sound unprofessional (if it actually happened as you say it), but at the same time you sound like a d-bag yourself.

[–]bitterweasel[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

EMT-B. I should have told them but the fact that I didn't really didn't matter. I would have just asked a multitude of questions to determine if I was coherent, then gone from there. If they determined I was sane then the information I gave them about only taking one drug, the motorcycle crash, and symptoms should have all been taken seriously.

[–]Combatmed101AR NREMT/ArmyNG 68W/ EMT-P Student 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Soooo the TL;DR is: I'm a shit patient with little to no experience in EMS so I'm judging the EMTs because I don't want to admit I'm at fault. Go kick rocks cockbag.

Edit add: are you REALLY SURE you have Emt training? Cause that involves a license. AND most EMT trained people don't assume MIs come from anxiety. No I'm gonna go with "moron on drugs" training.

Second add: do you have a fuckin clue what a DNR is? Jaysus fuck you're stupid.

[–]bitterweasel[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (7子コメント)

People like you are exactly why I left the EMS system. Complacent bitter dicks who apparently lose their desire to minimize hardship for others.

And to clear that up, I used poor terminology there. I have a pre-existing heart condition and moments of high stress can lead to unfavorable situations. It's hereditary and my father collapsed while having an anxiety attack when he was my age and had to have open-heart surgery.

[–]Combatmed101AR NREMT/ArmyNG 68W/ EMT-P Student 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (6子コメント)

I am neither complacent nor bitter. I love my job and I feel whole heatedly for my patients. In fact I'd call myself a generally happy person. BUT if i showed up at a Pts house on his call (which who did you call if they didn't bring an ambulance??) and he says "hey I'm on drugs and in gonna say they're legal but I'm not saying what" then I'm gonna be standoffish about it. Do you have any idea how many drugs are out there that ARE legal? Do think I havnt heard the "it's legal" line? If its actually legal my patients will always tell me flat out and they know how to deal with PD over it. What's wrong was exactly what they guessed. You were high off your tits and freaked out on something I HIGHLY doubt was legal at all. I also don't believe you have any legit "Emt training" because if you did you would be up front and honest because you understand how it works. Also we don't say "Emt training" we just say I hold "EMT-X license".

Edit add: I'm also obviously not wrong at all since oh 99% of the thread agrees with me? So again, go kick rocks.

[–]bitterweasel[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The drugs were not my primary complaint! That's my point! I told them immediately I got in an accident and long-lasting symptoms from that accident are worrying me. The drugs had nothing to do with the encounter besides potential anxiety.

And I don't feel the need to verify my EMT training at all I just figured it would be a nice piece of information to reveal while telling a friendly story on the fucking internet. Suck my balls man

[–]throwaway07314 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your chief complaint was you called an ambulance for a jammed finger. My field impression is: shitbag.

[–]Combatmed101AR NREMT/ArmyNG 68W/ EMT-P Student 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Lol ok sure guy. "Friendly story on the internet". Pretty sure you came to an EMS subreddit just to bitch about "bad EMTs" expecting sympathy and instead got told you were the asswipe in the situation and are now throwing a little tantrum. Jerk off with sandpaper guy.

[–]bitterweasel[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Hey this is a discussion. I came on the EMS subreddit because I've been involved with the EMS system and I saw the faults in their patient assessment. Getting some flack so now I'm just defending my point. Thank god for internet anonymity because I'd you'd be saying what you are in a public setting wearing the uniform you're making of mockery of right now.

[–]Combatmed101AR NREMT/ArmyNG 68W/ EMT-P Student 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Your right thank god for the internet anonymity because I would indeed probably get at least a smack on the wrists for saying things as upfront as I am now. But since this is reddit, a place designed as an anonymous social media site, I can say "fuck you cockbag" without being overly concerned about repercussions from my employer. As for "making a mockery of my uniform" I'm simply saying out loud what everyone else is saying about you at a station or in their heads. Not exactly a mockery but hey I'll take em if you wanna throw em.

[–]InwardBeef 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you can't understand that the chief complaint isn't necessarily what the patient calls 911 for, then you have no room to ever comment on someone's medical opinion /practice

[–]luvmuppetTX - FF/AEMT 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What the hell service carries around a DNR form?

I can only assume that you mean AMA. :-)

No matter. I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but that shouldn't be common at all. We usually don't mind if someone is worried and might just want someone to reassure them that they aren't dying. Unless you've taken something that would cause the symptom you're having, you'll get zero judgement on most drug use. (I'm not a fan of pcp and meth, but don't care about the recreational stuff)

But.. Who actually showed up? You said that they would call an ambulance. Was it a first responder org? Fire department?

[–]bitterweasel[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fire department. I should have just given up the info but a stoned mindset and fear of local PD overtook logic and I abused my right to keep my mouth shut.

I appreciate you having a friendlier demeanor than most of the guys in this thread. My main concern was the awful patient assessment that took place and the unprofessional attitude these public servants had.

[–]InwardBeef 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

  1. If you had EMT training and paid attention, you would know that telling the police that you used drugs would be a HIPPA violation and wouldn't be admissible in court.

  2. Plus, it's not like he police officer would have sat there and arrested someone who was potentially having a medical emergency

  3. There is a big difference between "EMT training" and being and actual working EMT. Including all the practical knowledge and ConEd they have accrued. It's entirely possible they know something you don't

  4. Unless you tell them it was weed, they really don't have any way of knowing it was weed. You're having potential cardiac issues following drug use and are refusing to divulge what drug you took, it's completely reasonable for them to consider something like Meth or Coke use

  5. You were withholding relevant info from them and being argumentative after asking them to come help you. You're potentially preventing them from doing their job

  6. Even if you claim to have EMT training, unless you can verify that, I have no reason to believe that is relevant. Additionally, no matter how much training you have, it's kind of irrelevant when you are under the influence of a controlled substance. Your medical opinion isn't necessarily important to me when you are AMS. Plus, the stuff that you were suggesting really didn't make any sense at all. Broken rib with no trauma? An MI prompted by anxiety attack in a young adult? Internal bleeding? Those are way, way more outlandish than someone just having a bad trip.

[–]bitterweasel[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

  1. If I mention something specific then that goes on the report. If the PD gets involved and an incident occurs, my day in court will come and info like that will come out.

five. I gave them all the info they needed considering they determine that I can make decisions for myself. Legal, medicinal, and only drug I took. I could be lying but if the vitals say I'm screwed up then toxicology will tell them all they need to know. I even said "If something is wrong with me and I'm heading in, I'll give up all the information I know you guys need."

six. I don't really want to verify it given the circumstances of the story that I'm publicly releasing, I don't think it's really relevant either. Oh and I didn't tell the firefighters I had EMT training, there was no reason to. And I was in a dirt bike accident a week ago that I hadn't gotten a full meal deal evaluation about.

[–]InwardBeef 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

If an incident occurs? Seriously? Unless you turn into a physically combative asshole, what incident could occur? Even then, if it's "legal" then you should have no concern about what happens in court.

And no, you didn't give them all they needed to know. You refused to tell them what drugs they took. Even if this wasn't relevant, how the hell are they suppose to know the info you are withholding isn't relevant unless they know what that info is? Especially if they have no idea you have medical training and are just a lay person.

And you can be fucked up on something and have normal vitals, you can also have fucked up vitals and not be under the influence of drugs. Assuming that they should magically know you're lying based on your vitals, what's the fucking point of lying? And how is toxicology suppose to tell them everything they need to know? Are they capable of doing lab work in the field? I doubt it. Which means they have no way of knowing what you are on and can't provide immediate intervention if needed.

If immediate intervention wasn't needed, then you should be fucking ashamed of yourself you calling 911 for something that wasn't an emergency when you allegedly have adequate training to know better.

Thank god you don't work as an EMT, because you clearly have no fucking idea what you are talking about

[–]bitterweasel[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

That was my point about the PD. They've created issues out of nothing for kind 40 year old women in my area and I didn't want to reveal any information that could back to bite me in the ass.

Bullshit man. "I just had high anxiety and these symptoms do you think I'm having long-lasting symptoms from my crash or something?" "No sir your vitals are stable so it's probably just related to the drug you took." "Okay thanks man I'll just walk home."

[–]InwardBeef 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

If it's legal, they literally cannot make an issue out of it and it can't come back to bite you. You either are completely full of shit about it being legal (this sure sounds to be the case), or you have no fucking idea how the law works.

And just because your vitals are stable, doesn't mean there isn't a medical issue at had and if they are unstable, there is no way to know that the drugs aren't causing that instability.

You should fucking know this basic shit and you should still be ashamed for calling an ambulance out just because you were curious to know what your vitals were

[–]bitterweasel[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

The legality of the medicinal industry is a gray area right now and it's smarter to keep that information to yourself.

I called them because I was fearful for my life and that's my goddamn right. You should be ashamed for the image that you're promoting right now and I only hope that this attitude gets you booted off the crew someday.

[–]InwardBeef 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

There is no "grey" area. It's either legal that you have a prescription for and bought it from an authorized seller, or you don't have one of those things and it's not legal at all. It's cut and dry.

And the only image I'm promoting is that you're a fucking idiot. And neither I nor anyone else will ever get kicked off a Crew for not accepting a patient refusing to answer what specific drug he is on despite admitting that he had taken that drug.

You keep bringing up this irrational fear that you're going to get in trouble for your "legal" drugs, but are completely ignorant to the potential legal ramifications the crew could face for just taking accepting the discretion of a stranger (who to their knowledge has not medical knowledge) who is by his own admission, under the influence of a controlled substance. The irony is absolutely maddening

[–]David_Parker 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

You don't have to like what I said. And it sounds like they weren't great EMT's. Unfortunately that is the way life goes. Burnout is high in this field, and a lot of guys feel that most patients are wasting their time unless they're bleeding profusely. But when you're non compliant, they are most likely going to be non compliant.

More and more cities are being given the ability to refuse transport just on this alone. I'll agree with others, just because a patient is being difficult should not change your course of care. However, does this response on their part from yours surprise me? Not in the least. In reality, the public needs to be trained on what constitutes an emergency, and EMS needs better training for people with anxiety and psychiatric disorders.

[–]bitterweasel[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Hey I'm hearing you and I appreciate you not being all accusatory like the rest of these guys. I think your last statement is correct about the public and EMS training, but I was told by urgent care that my symptoms could be related to my crash, and I should be reevaluated at the earliest possible opportunity. That's all I was looking for from the firefighters.

[–]bitterweasel[S] -5 ポイント-4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Reading these comments are making me sick. You guys are seriously letting the patient's demeanor influence how you do your job? Half the job is being a detective and the other half is stabilizing the patient if shit's hitting the fan. The vitals will tell you what the patient won't. If I had pinpoint pupils then there's an answer. If I had an elevated heart rate and no other changes in vitals then I'm probably just freaking out.

Maybe some O2 and an O2 sat would have been smart. It was a matter of patient care. I'm not trying to act elitist but it makes me feel spiteful towards the modern EMS system when people like the ones from last night would actually delay transport for nominal issues that they could have solved themselves.

[–]justatouchcrazyMI - CCEMT-P/RN 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How would you react if you got called to a patient acting stand-offish and probably (from their perspective) a little weird and perhaps even altered. Now imagine that patient states they are taking drugs, but not which ones beyond "legal ones." To me that sounds a lot like altered mental status and/or some psych issues. While they weren't necessarily super professional they were trying to get answers to these big questions because it doesn't sound like things are adding up from their perspective.

You're lucky they didn't get the police involved. I know a lot of crews that would have run with the altered mental status or combative patient presentation and called police because they had a patient, perhaps having a medical event or medical reaction, that's non-compliant and altered.

[–]throwaway07314 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you're an EMT then you should know that transport often depends on getting a full history and assessment, which you were preventing them from getting. If you were on any drug with potential cardiac effects they would have to transport you to a hospital capable of dealing with that rather than just the closest ER.

[–]David_Parker 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Which is why they should have been professional.

[–]DEADGL0RYThe Great White North 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I actually agree with you on your main points.

Yes, you were probably being a pain in the ass, but they were hired to do a job and they should have shown some professionalism.

To add to this, some of the comments I've seen here thus far are absolutely fucking pathetic. Grow up guys and gals.