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When Did Fish Become a Vegetable? (theirturn.net)

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[–]nickjacksonD 49 ポイント50 ポイント  (56子コメント)

Well, I am only speaking for myself, but I oftentimes use the phrase "vegetarian" to make it easier for people to understand. I live in the Midwest and vegetarians are few and far between where I'm at, and most people don't understand what pescatarian means, and I don't want to seem pretentious using it, though amongst vegetarians I use the phrase.

Which I think confuses people later when I eat fish and I say well I technically am a pescatarian, or sometimes just saying "I'm a vegetarian but I sometimes eat fish". Which I shouldn't say but having to explain yourself and put up with everyone's arguments that you didn't ask for gets so fucking old. Its the same thing as when you explain computer stuff to your grandparents.

All the same the article makes good points and I'm going to be more conscious of my use of vegetarian, and try to say pescatarian more often. As far as the hunting argument goes, my reasons of giving meat up center around factory farming and raising animals in poor conditions for food, but allow for hunting, so the author and I have differences which I of course respect, so I don't have much to add on the matter.

[–]PaintItPurplemostly vegan 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think "Mostly vegetarian but I eat fish" is reasonable if you don't want to bust out the dictionary every time you discuss food. Similarly, my wife usually describes her diet as something like "The only meat I eat is chicken and fish." Nobody seems to have a problem wrapping their head around that, and as a bonus nobody gets her diet confused with my strict vegetarian one.

[–]BenFoldsFourLokovegetarian 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (40子コメント)

"I'm a pescetarian, which means I'm a vegetarian who eats fish"

Not hard, not pretentious, it's just factual. If people have a problem with it, they oughtta get the stick out of their butts. I live in the Midwest too and no one I've talked to would find the word pescetarian offensive in any way, and by calling yourself a pescetarian off the bat, people would remember that you're not actually a vegetarian and would identify fish as meat.

So many near-vegetarians have so little faith in people's basic intelligence; I know it's not meant to be insulting, but it almost is. People probably won't remember the word pescetarian, but they will remember you're not a vegetarian and probably remember your dietary specifics.

[–]nickjacksonD 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (35子コメント)

I see your point. Like I said I'm going to be more conscious and try to use the term more. I guess its just that I get so much shit as it is, I just don't want to rock the boat anymore.

[–]BenFoldsFourLokovegetarian 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Maybe the people you hang around with just aren't so understanding :<

But I seriously think pescetarians in general could say the term without any backlash at all.

[–]nickjacksonD 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Yes I am going to try to use the term more.

But yes, no one is understanding. I had a waitress respond immediately with "My dad always says that if you care about the animals, why are you eating their food??" Just the other day. I just smiled and was like "heh....." Not to mention family members, co workers, etc. that think it's a phase or a weird quirk, and don't understand what it means to someone for you to accommodate their diet choices.

[–]hulxter 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That waitress needs to not be working in food service if she is not sensitive to the requests of her guests. I say this as a former server.

[–]kalisaurus 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (25子コメント)

I agree 100%. I try to say "pescetarian" whenever it feels right, but sometimes its just not convenient to say and I don't feel like being an asshole. I've had situations where a friend might ask, "hey do you want the rest of my chicken" and I'm not going to respond by saying, "no, thank you, because I'm a pescetarian and so the only meat that I eat is fish." It sounds pretentious. Not eating hamburgers is enough to piss off way to many people and I'm not going to fuel the fire. I don't understand why vegetarians get so offended by pescetarians calling themselves vegetarians.

[–]Sigh_No_Morevegetarian 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm not offended by it, but it does affect me when people offer fish as a vegetarian option or even worse, tell me something is vegetarian even though it contains fish.

I really don't care that much how people choose to label themselves, but it does get very frustrating when I have no options at a restaurant/event or I accidentally eat fish because of it.

[–]kinataki 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (16子コメント)

is that really that hard to understand why you are not a vegetarian and therefore shouldn't call yourself one? you are eating meat. by definition, you are NOT a vegetarian.

[–]kalisaurus 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (15子コメント)

Make no mistake... I totally and fully understand that I am not a vegetarian. But as I already stated, its so much easier to talk to people using a term that is universally understood. I think its better to avoid acting in a way that is often perceived by full on meat eaters as being pretentious. People with any sort of special diet get enough shit for it as it is. I'm not trying to appropriate vegetarian culture and if I'm honestly hurting any vegetarians or the vegetarian way of life by referring to myself as a vegetarian for the ease of communicating with people who might need further explanation as to what a pescetarian is, then somebody please let me know and I will make an effort to change. If you're just upset because I'm not using a word per the dictionary definition then I'm not really concerned with changing and I will continue to say what is easiest for me to say to communicate what I need to communicate.

[–]Flower-Hour 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I sometimes say I'm vegetarian to avoid those 'oh but if you eat fish why not chicken' discussions so many people seem to love.

[–]rainydayoverI only eat candy 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Just wanted to say, this makes sense to me. I have celiac disease, but I often tell waiters or acquaintances that I have a wheat allergy. I do it because it's a better known term, has less negative associations than mentioning gluten, and means that I get less questions about what exactly is going on with my digestive system.

Technically it's not correct, and might contribute to misunderstandings about celiacs, but it's helpful in a lot of situations.

Also, as a vegetarian, I'm not offended. We also have a pescetarian who refers to himself as vegetarian in my office, and everyone seems pretty clear with and ok with the situation. I don't feel like it contributes to misunderstanding about my own diet.

[–]kinataki 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (11子コメント)

okay... the general response when i let people know i am a vegetarian is "sooo... you eat chicken? no? ummm... what about fish? what do you mean no? okay... what about seaf--". when you tell people that you are a vegetarian and THEN you eat meat, that is just confusing.

[–]nickjacksonD 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's true. Let me explain the context of most interactions. I avoid telling anyone anything most of the time, so when I get to the point where meat is the only thing available, and I get offered a burger or something, I decline and to not sound rude, I say "I don't eat meat." Because that is a very short sentence, and not going into detail about my diet ethics with "I don't eat meat except fish, but fresh caught, etc. etc." And since you lead with "I don't eat meat" people assume you are a vegetarian, when you respond "Actually, I eat fish sometimes, so technically I'm a pesc...." and at this point they aren't paying attention. Cognitively, you are not a vegetarian to this person, even thought you have explained to them you are not.

[–]kalisaurus 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (9子コメント)

I'm really sorry you've had that experience. I've never had anyone ask for clarification when I say vegetarian. 9 times out of 10 I use the proper term, but I see this issue come up a lot on this subreddit and I frankly feel like this is the exact kind of exclusive attitude that makes people hate vegetarians in the first place.

[–]veralidainesarrasri -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (7子コメント)

...Well yes, of course things like fish being meat and the fact that people who eat fish yet say they're vegetarians being such an annoyance come up here because this is the vegetarian subreddit. We don't have to be inclusive here just like the vegan subreddit doesn't have to be inclusive of vegetarians.

[–]kalisaurus 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Valid point. Obviously this sub has the right to post and discuss anything pertaining to vegetarianism and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I'm only trying to present another side to the discussion. Personally I subscribed because I mostly eat vegetarian and will eat seafood on occasion. I guess I honestly don't understand what the big deal is or why anybody really cares how I describe myself to others. My hair is kinda light brown so sometimes I'll say its blonde. I dont see blondes complaining and I don't see the difference here. I simply meant to say that it seems to me that people getting so upset about wording is a reason why many people dislike vegetarians.

[–]St3fanAx3l 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (4子コメント)

It's a SUBREDDIT, not a fucking members club.

[–]kackygreenvegetarian 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

From the number of times I've had to say "wait, does this have fish in it" then explain that I shouldn't have or can't eat something because fish is not vegetarian, yeah I'd say it does actually hurt vegetarians to misuse the term incorrectly.

Friends of mine who don't like the pesca term just say "almost vegetarian, I only eat fish" which seems non pretentious and also avoids spreading misinformation.

Consider it like if people started saying they were pescatarian when they also eat beef, like, it's so much easier than explaining that they make an exception that isn't standard, but enough people do it and now you are stuck telling people that, no, you don't actually eat beef as a pescatarian, possibly after having eaten a meal they thought was okay for you but had beef.

[–]quaxon 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

So if a person only ate goats should they still be called a vegetarian to "make it easier"?

That argument is stupid, the only reason someone who is not a vegetarian would want to use the label is to come off as better than whoever you're talking to and it just makes it harder for real vegetarians to get food without death in it.

[–]kalisaurus 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Is there even a word for people who only eat goat? If I were eating out at a restaurant I might just say I'm a vegetarian so the staff gets the point that I don't want chicken, beef, pork, etc. I don't use vegetarian exclusively but sometimes its just easier to communicate what you need in that specific situation. Do you really have that many encounters with people who don't understand what vegetarian means? Do you think that maybe its possible that you're the one acting superior by being upset that I sometimes use a word wrong?

[–]Sojourner_Truth 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Not everything has to have a word.

[–]kalisaurus 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I never said everything needed a word... People are complaining that I don't use the right word. If there isn't even a word for what I am then I'm probably just going to say I'm vegetarian to people for simplicity's sake. In the rare context that goat is served and I agree to eat it, then I will further explain that I'm not really a vegetarian because I eat goat, but I say vegetarian because its easier than telling people that I only eat goat. Why is that so offensive? I'm not arguing the meaning of vegetarianism. I'm only providing insight as to why myself and others might call ourselves vegetarians even though we are not.

[–]kennyminot 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I eat sea bugs - so where exactly do I fit? Do I call myself "pescetarian," even though I don't eat fish?

I concur with everybody in this thread. I call myself "vegetarian" because it's convenient and doesn't involve wasting my time explaining myself to people.

[–]St3fanAx3l 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

That's an incredibly narrow-minded statement.

I work in concert and event production. Although I do occasionally eat fish, I will inform whoever it may concern that I am a vegetarian. It is incredibly unlikely that catering will be providing salmon filets and incredibly likely that it will be bbq/pepperoni pizzas/deli meat sandwiches. I do not have the privilege or the time to explain that fish would be acceptable, and would probably come off more pretentious than simply saying "No meat please". I even prefer vegetarian, it's just that sometimes I enjoy a sushi roll. So, next time you're going to sit on your judgmental high-horse, don't.

[–]kackygreenvegetarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

It's not really an offended thing so much as a we end up stuck with the repercussions of pescaterians who don't want to explain the term misinforming the public about what a vegetarian is. Like others commented, strict vegetarians get stuck either eating meat by accident or not having food options because the public has been given a misunderstanding that vegetarian would mean fish is fair game.

The more the terms get used and used correctly the more we all benefit from our dietary choices being understood.

[–]Sojourner_Truth 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Or just say "I eat fish but no other meat."

Not every single lifestyle or dietary regime has a name that works well. But I and a lot of other veg*ns would really prefer if you didn't confuse other people.

[–]nickjacksonD 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I typically start with that. "No I can't." "Why?" "I don't eat meat." "Vegetarian then?" "Well, I eat fish so technically no." And if I can squeeze the term pescatarian in, I will.

Also what does it mean when you put an asterisk inside vegan?

[–]Sojourner_Truth 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

it's for vegan/vegetarian

[–]Flewtealifelong vegetarian 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I for one would very much appreciate your efforts! Because many times, you (and others) avoiding rocking the boat a little means that when I encounter those people later, the boat gets rocked violently and they often then treat it as my fault--all that shit you would have gotten, plus some more for being "difficult."

[–]iMarchine 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I totally understand where you are coming from though. I am in the same boat and it get's really fuckin' annoying trying to constantly explain these terms to people. It shouldn't matter what I or anyone eats. But people already get judgemental when I tell them I'm a vegetarian. I get ridiculed for it almost any time I eat food. I later tell them I'm a pescatarian, but they still have no idea what that means even after I explain it to them.

[–]nickjacksonD 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I don't like labels as it is. I don't technically have one, since I eat fish and hunted deer, so it's just my stance against eating factory farmed land meat. But labels make people comfortable, or at least allow them to draw conclusions about you based on their knowledge of that label, we all do it, it's just psychology.

The only real reason we need to refer to ourselves as pescatarians is to respect those that don't want their name sullied with those that claim to be them and also eat meat.

[–]erehin 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Most people are actually very resistant to learning new words, especially in rural areas. If you don't believe me, try dropping the words sanguine, palaver, or ennui in your next conversation with a person.

[–]BenFoldsFourLokovegetarian 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's why I wouldn't try to make someone learn the word. Just say it, then describe what you are. In my experience, people generally remember the meaning and not the word. But they know you aren't the typical word.

[–]erehin 5 ポイント6 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I get what you're trying to say, but this is an experience that I've had thousands of times through out my 8 years as a pescatarian. Their faces change, and their demeanor in conversation changes. Anytime I've ever thrown it out there they respond with confusion, and then they feel vulnerable, so when I step in and say "it means..." they feel like I did it intentionally to make them feel small.

[–]Sojourner_Truth 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

/r/iamverysmart

[–]bermyWHATmostly vegetarian 10 ポイント11 ポイント  (5子コメント)

The fishing industry is way more harmful and less regulated than the meat industry

[–]nickjacksonD 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Yup, I'm aware, and I want to get to the point where I only eat fish I catch and fish that is fresh caught. It's a hypocrisy I have to live with at the moment until I decide to be more proactive.

[–]bermyWHATmostly vegetarian 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I get it. I'm from an island so I guess I'm more sensitive to these issues and I feel like a lot of people I encounter just have no idea what a terrible state the ocean is in. That being said I have nothing morally against eating meat one hunts or catches - my issue lies with the industry. But the same can be said for certain plant products like Palm a hearts...

There's a lot of B'S but you do what you can.

[–]nickjacksonD 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Is there any good documentary or in depth article on this? I would like to educate myself more.

And I'm sure it doesn't help, but I'm very inland so I tend to eat river and lake fish more than ocean fish, but I don't know what state the inland fish industry is like at the moment either.

[–]bermyWHATmostly vegetarian 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I really don't know any films and I can't remember any articles I've read. I know nothing about lake and river fish. A lot of what I've learnt was from the local underwater exploration institute and the oceanographic sciences institute.

The institute had a barbecue this summer to raise awareness about the biggest threat to the local reef ecosystem: lionfish. They're trying to get people to get licenses to cull the fish and get local restaurants to create a demand. I haven't eaten fish in years but I feel like it's my patriotic duty to eat these fuckers.

[–]bluegoodbye 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in this. I know the hypocrisy I live with as well, but the truth is I just can't give up fish right now. I eat seitan and tempeh, but most of my protein comes from fish. (Also I love it, I know that's not a good reason, but I do). I can see a day where I have to give up fish as well, but that day hasn't come yet.

I also know what it's like to get blank stares when you use the "P" word. Honestly I don't call myself that or even vegetarian. I just eat what I eat.

[–]gopperman[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント  (3子コメント)

I don't necessarily agree with you, but it's not often that I hear a coherent, well-reasoned argument from vegetarians who eat fish, so thank you!

[–]Sojourner_Truth 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (2子コメント)

there's no such thing, ffs. "circles with corners". It's a contradiction, it literally can not exist

[–]nickjacksonD 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're completely right. I'm not a vegetarian who eats fish. Hell I'm not even a pescatarian. I'll eat deer if it is hunted. I just don't have a word for not eating products of factory farming and animal torture. Pescatarian works best, and I'll try to use that from now on.

[–]PaintItPurplemostly vegan 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The idea of a "round rectangle" is pretty common these days (it's probably the shape of the windows on your computer). It isn't literally a rectangle —since they are, by definition, not round — but it's evocative enough to be useful. This seems similar to me.

[–]St3fanAx3l 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Exactly my stance. I recently was in middle-of-nowhere Texas for work, and even the term "vegetarian" confused them. I was offered green beans and potatoes, with a SIDE of brisket. Because vegetarian apparently means just shifting the ratio.

I ate a lot of rolls.

[–]mithrasinvictus 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Which I think confuses people later when I eat fish

And which confuses people later when they encounter an actual vegetarian who gets upset at finding fish in their supposedly "vegetarian" meal.

Please stop.

[–]nickjacksonD 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

See my other responses, I try to avoid it as much as possible and while rarely I will say "vegetarian" it is mostly implied when I give a brief-as-possible summary of my diet, in that "No thanks, I don't eat meat."

[–]croutons123 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

This is why I say "I don't eat land animals". But they usually then ask if chicken counts as a land animal, so it's not perfect. (I also try and phrase it loosely because I'm a pretty bad pescatarian. I have a "don't ask don't tell" policy about broths in restaurants.) I usually correct people who call me a vegetarian though because I don't want to claim more credit than I deserve!