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'1,400 children abused' in Rotherham (bbc.co.uk)

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[–]backtowriting 42 ポイント43 ポイント  (83子コメント)

Let's get this out of the way.

Were the perpetrators largely Muslim?

(I have no idea, but this is going to be a question people will want to talk about.)

From the Guardian article on this story-

The report said: "By far the majority of perpetrators were described as Asian by victims.

[–]Tijai 20 ポイント21 ポイント  (11子コメント)

according to the BBC (Radio 4) Perpetrators were of Pakistani origin.

[–]syukSark 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (5子コメント)

It will be interesting to see the breakdown of the ethnicity of the victims.

[–]whencanistopGreater London 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (0子コメント)

The report says most of them were White British females.

[–]shortpaleugly 26 ポイント27 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It's pretty clear that the victims will be white and non-Muslim.

In the Sikh community we've seen clear and concerted efforts by Muslim men to coerce vulnerable Sikh girls into sexual liaisons and have been frustrated both by a lack of police willingness to intervene and hesitance in reporting of crimes by parents who are too ashamed.

This needs to stop and it's time for the Muslim community in Britain to face facts and get its house in order.

[–]ChaBeezyCheshire 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (2子コメント)

This needs to stop and it's time for the Muslim community in Britain to face facts and get its house in order.

In before; "its a minority of the community"

[–]Wascoo 17 ポイント18 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It's a minority of a minority but that minority is still blowing up trains, chopping off soldier's heads in the street, joining terror states, over throwing schools and noncing kids so it's worth worrying about.

[–]shortpaleugly 24 ポイント25 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Credit to /u/Shazamio for highlighting this but the BBC article was edited.

It originally said as of 9:43am:

She also found the majority of perpetrators were of Pakistani heritage.

This was edited and as of 10:03am the article read:

By far the majority of perpetrators of abuse were described as "Asian" by victims.

Oh dear...

http://newsdiffs.org/diff/657896/657911/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

[–]Tijai 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Its now nearly 16:00 hours in the UK. Less than 2 hours ago I HEARD on Radio 4 the presenter state that the perpetrators were of Pakistani origin.

Then again we already know this I'm sure.

[–]shortpaleugly 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So did I: doesn't stop the editing of the BBC website being true.

The term 'British Asian' is a thinly veiled allusion to 'British of Pakistani origin' and we all know it.

[–]Timtankard 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

"Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past."

[–]ta9876543201 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, they were all Chinese. /s

[–]Major_Reacher 37 ポイント38 ポイント  (22子コメント)

The Sky news article says:

There was “denial” that such events could happen in Rotherham and issues of ethnicity were “played down” by senior managers. "Almost all" the perpetrators were described by victims as being of Pakinstani origin, but the authorities "wanted to play down ethnic dimensions... for fear of being thought racist."

I can't link to the article as I'm on my phone.

Edit: The article http://news.sky.com/story/1324952/horrific-cases-of-child-abuse-in-rotherham

[–]jambox888Oxfordshire whut? 41 ポイント42 ポイント  (8子コメント)

"for fear of being thought racist."

I just think that's the worst excuse imaginable. You've not done your job, you don't care about protecting children (even though that is your job and your direct responsibility), you've happily got on with your life despite knowing that other people are suffering and you've carried on collecting your salary... but at least nobody thinks you're a racist! Good job.

[–]MasterOfWhisperers 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (12子コメント)

It's worth bearing in mind that both the BBC and Guardian are changing that quote to be "of Asian origin", lest anyone blame Islam.

[–]Wiffledon 12 ポイント13 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Even now they are worried about being branded racist, despite the massive failure to protect those children being down to the fear of being branded a racist.

[–]shortpaleugly [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

I don't think the likes of the BBC and Guardian are scared of being labelled as racists.

They're just loathe to admit that Muslim men could be guilty of this so they're willing to cut their noses off to spite their faces and stubbornly toe the line rather than face facts.

[–]slothrrYorkshire [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

The victims described their abusers as "Asian". They're reporting the known facts. If it turns out the children identify 10 Chinese men as the perpetrators then there would be a shit-storm. I agree there's probably a 0.1% chance of this being the case, but that shouldn't be ignored by responsible journalists.

[–]MasterOfWhisperers [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

No, they were reported as Pakistani in the report:

"In Rotherham, the majority of known perpetrators were of Pakistani heritage including the five men convicted in 2010."

[–]slothrrYorkshire [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

Oh ok, fair enough. BBC News TV has been describing them as being of Pakistani origin all afternoon.

[–]Wolenski 25 ポイント26 ポイント  (16子コメント)

Rotherham has a huge pakistani community.

Source: I live here.

[–]backtowriting 14 ポイント15 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Here's a better source.

The largest BME community is Pakistani & Kashmiri who numbered 7,912 in 2011 or 3.1% of the population.

[–]samuel_cookeYorkshire [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

Can confirm.

Source: Also live here.

[–]jambox888Oxfordshire whut? 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (26子コメント)

Well then let's get this out of the way: Why didn't the police and council, who are presumably mostly white, do more about it?

[–]CapsuletsUnited Kingdom 18 ポイント19 ポイント  (18子コメント)

Because they didn't want to appear racist:

"Several staff described their nervousness about identifying the ethnic origins of perpetrators for fear of being thought as racist; others remembered clear direction from their managers not to do so."

[–]ZenZibbehVote yes for better weather! 9 ポイント10 ポイント  (0子コメント)

How is it racist to identify the race of someone?

Oh lord...

[–]jambox888Oxfordshire whut? 13 ポイント14 ポイント  (13子コメント)

Do you think that's actually why, or is it just a convenient excuse? If the former, then these people must be unbelievably stupid. If the latter then they were just plain bad at their jobs, or corrupt.

[–]CapsuletsUnited Kingdom 11 ポイント12 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I think its probably a bit of both. But the fear of appearing racist definitely plays a part. And its worth noting that is not just this council or police force that have admitted not doing everything they could in order to prevent themselves from appearing to be racist. It seems to be a factor in every smiler case.

After the Oxford sex abuse story, the chief of police there apologised along with their council, and said something very smiler, about how there were signs of abuse but the force didn't want to appear to be discriminating against the Muslim community.

[–]CptBigglesworthSurrey 8 ポイント9 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Yeah, you can see it with Trojan Horse too.

[–]shortpaleugly [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

You discount the possibility of staff being from the Muslim community themselves.

[–]CapsuletsUnited Kingdom [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

I don't believe I have. Where have I done that?

[–]shortpaleugly [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

All I mean is that there's the very real possibility not just of the authorities being loathe to admit to the nature of the problem for fear of being branded racists but that council workers may have been hesitant to deal with the issue given the numbers of Pakistani-origin employees and higher-ups in Rotherham.

It would be fucking awkward to have to deal with instances of grooming if you were an attendee at the local mosque and knew that so-and-so down the road who's your mate's second cousin was culpable.

[–]jambox888Oxfordshire whut? 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (6子コメント)

But the fear of appearing racist definitely plays a part.

I politely disagree. Who would care? if there was good evidence that this was happening and a prosecution resulted, do you think the Muslim Council of Britain would be complaining? Who would be?

and said something very smiler

Well, according to what I'm saying, he would say that, wouldn't he? Because it's a serviceable sort of excuse that some people will take at face value and costs very little to deploy.

In the Oxford case, there was an incident where someone staying at a nasty B&B called the police because it sounded like someone was knocking about a prostitute. The police arrived and discovered a battered 12 year-old child. No charges were brought and the girl disappeared again soon after. What has that got to do with racism? It's either incompetence or corruption.

[–]CapsuletsUnited Kingdom 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (4子コメント)

do you think the Muslim Council of Britain would be complaining? Who would be?

The local community, who did not like police walking around areas with high Muslim populations asking if they or their friends were paedophiles, thus alienating an already segregated community further.

Well, according to what I'm saying, he would say that, wouldn't he?

Well it was an apology not an excuse. And the fact that at least two police forces have used it seems to suggest that there is some truth to it. I don't know how much corruption there is in either of these two police forces, but it seems to be a problem that exists in many different areas, not just the police.

[–]jambox888Oxfordshire whut? [非表示スコア]  (3子コメント)

See, now I think you're a cop.

[–]CapsuletsUnited Kingdom [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

I'm not.

[–]jambox888Oxfordshire whut? [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

OK, just that you seem to be taking their point of view quite readily. For me, they've got a job to do and when they fuck it up, people get badly hurt.

The local community, who did not like police walking around areas with high Muslim populations asking if they or their friends were paedophiles

Nobody likes having cops ask them if they know paedophiles. If we've genuinely got a white police force that only polices white people, as you imply, then we've got a huge problem.

Well it was an apology not an excuse.

I think very few apologies are unqualified; his apology contained qualifications (I'm sorry, but...) and this is one of them. If he hadn't have made an excuse, for me, he would've resigned.

the fact that at least two police forces have used it seems to suggest that there is some truth to it.

No. That's logically a non-sequitur. Lots of drugs smugglers who get caught say they were forced to do it "by gangsters" when they wind up in court - that doesn't necessarily give it any more weight.

it seems to be a problem that exists in many different areas, not just the police.

Agreed. Social services appear to vary wildly from one place to another, just like schools and hospitals. The Police, they're supposed to be pretty, well, uniform.

[–]zfgy [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

It's either incompetence or corruption.

This is what confuses me. I can imagine a full investigation being shut down for fears of corruption, but grabbing those caught red-handed seems like standard police work; they'd not be 'persecuting' anyone.

There were back-handers and blackmail at work here, I'm sure of it.

[–]koltra 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

What on earth does identifying the race of the perpetrators have to do with listening to, believing, and protecting children who've been abused or investigating and charging those they say abused them?

[–]CapsuletsUnited Kingdom [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

Well the article isn't clear on who these staff members were working for, the police or the council. But either way, its clear that someone in the police service was tasked with identifying who the people committing these sex crimes against children were, and during their investigation they approached these staff members. If they had come out and said that the majority of men committing these crimes were Asian, it would have narrowed the net considerably, however, their unwillingness, and outright refusal to pass on this information slowed down the investigation. It may have also been the police refusing to act solely on this information, for fear of being labelled discriminatory if it proved not to be the case.

[–]metalbox69Greater London 6 ポイント7 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Because a) children in care homes have historically been a low priority and ignored and b) there is usually collusion from within

[–]jambox888Oxfordshire whut? -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I reckon there's corruption here. Why the fuck would anyone turn a blind eye to this shit, unless they'd been paid?

[–]MasterOfWhisperers [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

Well, they are Labour-run councils, who are people that tend to defend the Muslim community. This is the same council that removed foster kids from a good foster family because they were UKIP voters.

Also, Pakistani councillors covered stuff up:

Page 93 of the report:

One senior officer suggested that some influential Pakistani-heritage councillors in Rotherham had acted as barriers.

Several councillors interviewed believed that by opening up these issues they could be 'giving oxygen' to racist perspectives that might in turn attract extremist political groups and threaten community cohesion. To some extent this concern was valid, with the apparent targeting of the town by groups such as the English Defence League. The Deputy Council Leader (2011-2014) from the Pakistani-heritage community was clear that he had not understood the scale of the CSE problem in Rotherham until 2013. He then disagreed with colleague elected members on the way to approach it. He had advocated taking the issue 'head on' but had been overruled. He was one of the elected members who said they thought the criminal convictions in 2010 were 'a one-off, isolated case', and not an example of a more deep-rooted problem of Pakistani-heritage perpetrators targeting young white girls.

This was at best naïve, and at worst ignoring a politically inconvenient truth."

[–]jambox888Oxfordshire whut? [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

One senior officer suggested that some influential Pakistani-heritage councillors in Rotherham had acted as barriers.

See, that doesn't really cut my mustard. Unless they name names, both the "senior officer" and the councillor. Fuck me, why doesn't this shit get a parliamentary enquiry? We had to listen to fucking Steve Coogan complain about having his bins gone over...

Yeah. I think "senior officers" might well put some sneaky, unsubstantiated accusations into a report if they thought it'd get some heat off them.

Or maybe it's true.

[–]whencanistopGreater London [非表示スコア]  (2子コメント)

The report suggests that there was a large indifference to the issue at senior management in the police and the council. Case workers would report to the police issues, the police would hand it to the council who would hand it back to the case worker. The police didn't believe it was a big problem and the council thought it was exaggerated. Budgets at the council got cut in 2008 onwards and the number of cases dramatically rose then, meaning the time was squeezed and resources short.

This line from the report caught my eye:

We were contacted by someone who worked at the Rotherham interchange in the early 2000s. He described how the Police refused to intervene when young girls who were thought to be victims of CSE were being beaten up and abused by perpetrators. According to him, the attitude of the Police at that time seemed to be that they were all ‘undesirables’ and the young women were not worthy of police protection

It tells a story in itself. South Yorkshire policy haven't covered themselves in glory over the years.

[–]jambox888Oxfordshire whut? [非表示スコア]  (1子コメント)

South Yorkshire policy haven't covered themselves in glory over the years.

Indeed. You can blame understaffed, underpaid social services or you can blame indifferent, incompetent, racist or even corrupt politicians... but the Police can't really use those excuses.

[–]whencanistopGreater London [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

No they can't. 157 cases sent to them in 2013 and barely any prosecutions is a pretty poor turnaround.

Whereas the council will get a 33% cut in budget in real terms from 2011/12 to 2016 according to the article.

However, this is one of those areas where police can't go in mob handed. In the first report there was an example of someone who was persuaded to go to the police by the report writer who was sent a text whilst at the police station saying they had her 11 year old brother and would do something bad to him if she talked. So she withdrew her statements and there was no further action. You need the case workers there because they're the ones with the trust of the victims.

[–]MasterOfWhisperers [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

The more important issue to focus on here is this bit:

"Prof Jay says she would not be surprised if similar situations of widespread abuse might arise in other towns."

Rochdale, Oxford, Telford, Peterborough and Derby have all had similar cases of mass abuse by Muslim gangs on white girls. And those are just the ones I know about.

[–]aaarrrgghManchester 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Mentioned this to someone in work just now. His response "well, look at Jimmy Saville... it's nothing to do with them being Asian"

Bullshit. If you subscribe to a misogynistic medieval belief system and you've a hatred for people who don't believe what you believe, this kind of stuff is inevitable.

Did I fight against him? Fuck no, because I don't fancy being fired for telling the truth. We have a tread on eggshells culture in this country, and it's got to go.

[–]zfgy [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

If you subscribe to a misogynistic medieval belief system and you've a hatred for people who don't believe what you believe, this kind of stuff is inevitable.

You're making an exaggerated bogeyman of a culture and imagining that this was far more widespread geographically than it was. I agree with your colleague. These were bad men who acted terribly because they realised that they could get away with it... just like Saville and other celebrities.

There's plenty of bad people of all cultures who act terribly because they can. In most places in this country there are strict enough social, legal and community forces to press them down with fear; realising that they'd be reported quickly. Celebrities in the 70's realised that everyone excused their actions. These gangs realised that no one cared for these children.

The answer is to make sure that no vulnerable people of any type are subject to the kind of bad people who lurk all around us in any community... and to make those people shy away in fear by brutally punishing them whenever they are found.

[–]yhkim1219 [非表示スコア]  (0子コメント)

They were likely Muslim, since they were of Pakistani origin, but doesn't necessarily mean they are (or are even practicing Muslims).

Also I don't know why there is a significance whether they were or not, unless they were doing it for religious purposes, which hasn't been stated yet.

However, them changing the wording seems quite cowardly.. I and many others I presume would have preferred the text to have remained as "of Pakistani Origin" instead of "Asian" since it's more specific.