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QuestionMy biggest question for MRAs: truly curious (self.MensRights)

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[–]rbbrks[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (50子コメント)

I appreciate your swift reply as well!

I think I really just want to know why many MRAs, most of whom would answer "male" to this question, still tend to demonize women fighting for their rights. If you can acknowledge that you wouldn't want to be a woman, why get angry at women who want to make the answer to this question "it doesn't matter"?

This isn't to say I think you're demonizing feminists or anything in your post--quite the opposite--I'm just speaking about the tendency of the MRM as a whole.

[–]DougDante 4 ポイント5 ポイント  (12子コメント)

I think I really just want to know why many MRAs, most of whom would answer "male" to this question, still tend to demonize women fighting for their rights.

How about an example?

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

An MRA getting angry with a woman who says women are at higher risk for domestic violence.

In my experience, most MRAs jump to the conclusion that, in saying that, a woman is also saying that domestic violence is not an issue for men. That's happened to me several times in this comment section, actually--I'll say that women are more at-risk for intimate partner violence (an absolute fact), and men assume I'm putting down male victims of partner violence. I'm not at all. I'm just saying women are more at-risk.

[–]cellardoor3 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (6子コメント)

Okay rbbrks, I'm going to suspend disbelief and pretend you're being earnest. But I will also let Murray Straus do the talking:

http://pubpages.unh.edu/~mas2/V71-Straus_Thirty-Years-Denying-Evidence-PV_10.pdf

And John Hamel et al. too: http://www.domesticviolenceresearch.org/pages/12_page_findings.htm

When you levy statements like it's "an absolute fact" that women are more at risk, some of us hear echoes of the Duluth Model in which it is "an absolute fact" that women can only be victims of, and never perpetrate violence.

Whether IPV is gender symmetrical or asymmetrical and in what contexts (which countries? cultures? age demographics?) is one of the most contested issues in IPV research.

That said, others have also stated in this thread that it really doesn't matter whether IPV is gender symmetrical or slightly asymmetrical. The important thing from a MHRM perspective is to get away from viewing IPV through a gendered lens (which is what a "women are more at risk" statement does), and start to see it as a human problem. The binary female-victim/male-perpetrator view is a failed hypothesis. Pursuing solutions based on it puts both men and women at risk. Emphasizing female victimhood by citing highly questionable and controversial research reinforces the gendered paradigm, and that's what makes this MRA (and I'd imagine others) angry.

edit: fixed mixed metaphor (yes, I'm that anal)

[–]rbbrks[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント  (5子コメント)

Okay, I'll take away all my grand statements and all my claims of fact and statistics.

What is true, though, is that MRAs see a woman trying to stop domestic violence against women, and assume without thinking that she would not do the same for men.

I don't want anyone, ever, to be beaten by a loved one (or anyone for that matter). I speak out about it happening to women because in my life, I know and know of vastly more women than men who are victims of IPV. That's why the word "woman" is attached to my posts about IPV. Don't make the assumption that I wouldn't stand up for IPV against males, too, because you'd be wrong. In my experience, though, narrower focuses are more effective, and I have more personal experience with female victims of IPV, so I choose that focus.

[–]cellardoor3 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (4子コメント)

What is true, though, is that MRAs see a woman trying to stop domestic violence against women, and assume without thinking that she would not do the same for men.

Everything that follows is a straw man argument.

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

But it's happened to me many, many times. On this comment thread. You can look if you want, I say an ungodly amount of times that I think the issue of DV against men is important. But every time I don't specify that in a post regarding DV, someone replies with a comment along the lines of "but men suffer form DV too! How are you not acknowledging that!", listing some statistics, and implying heavily that I'm biased towards women. Without fail.

[–]cellardoor3 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

But every time I don't specify that in a post regarding DV, someone replies with a comment along the lines of "but men suffer form DV too! How are you not acknowledging that!", listing some statistics, and implying heavily that I'm biased towards women. Without fail.

I'm sure I didn't do that. What I did do was contest your declaration that women are without question at a greater risk of IPV (yes, with statistics). I did not imply that you were biased towards women, but I did accuse you of framing the issue in terms of gender.

And, of course, you do:

I simply meant that women suffer at higher rates than men, even if it's just the 60/40 statistic a lot of MRAs throw out there, which shows us that it is a gendered issue.

I know 40% of domestic violence victims are men. I also know that 96% percent of murder victims in domestic partner murder-suicides are women. Which stat is "better"? I'm not trying to "steal" men's victimhood here, I'm just saying that typically when MRAs claim feminists victimize themselves, they blind themselves to the fact that women really can be victims, and often are.

2008 Bureau of Justice stats estimate that 22% of all violence against women is committed by an intimate partner; that number is 5% for men. That's just to say that if a woman has been attacked, there's just over a 1/5 chance that her male intimate partner attacked her (according to the same stats, 99% of intimate partner violence against women is committed by men), and if a man has been attacked, there's only a 1/20 chance that it was by an intimate partner.

American society has, at the urging of feminists, viewed IPV as a gendered issue for at least 30 years now, so I can understand why you've made the statements you've made regarding it. But I urge you to consider that when you talk about IPV as a gendered issue, you conjure the Duluth Model and patriarchy theory, which has contributed to discrimination against men in criminal and civil proceedings (i.e., custody hearings), among other things.

edit: fixed last sentence

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

Fair. IPV has been framed as a female problem, and perhaps it is not. It's hard to tell through stats which gender is truly more at risk, but it is clearly an issue that feminists have championed as a woman's problem.

But even though I can say those things, and truly mean them, the overall feeling I've had after posting this question is that everyone in these comments is against me. Even though I've said many many times that I understand how important it is to recognize IPV as a male and female problem (yes, I do frame it as gendered in your quoted statement above--but in other places I acknowledge how important it is that men receive a fair bid in these matters too, I wish you had quoted those parts as well). Why, after I've said I think men deserve to have a fair chance at custody, that men suffer domestic violence and sexual assault and it's a damn shame that those things often go unreported and unrecognized, that I think it's unfortunate that fiscal responsibility in relationships tends to fall on men, and even that I think it sucks that men are expected to make the first move in most romantic relationships--why, why, am I being treated and spoken to like I'm some militant feminist who discriminates against men? I've been called an asshole, a moron, told I'm stupid and obtuse, and been told my complaints are just me "bitching." Why, after I've made it clear I'm on your guys' side for a lot of these issues, are my thoughts reduced to me "bitching?"

[–]cellardoor3 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think this is going to be my last contribution to this thread, as I am tired and have a couple of long days ahead of me.

Several things:

1) Your commitment to this conversation is amazing.

2) It honestly doesn't matter which gender is more at risk. Who is more at risk is not what motivates MRA action on IPV. Our society's tendency to ignore female violence and male victimhood is what's at issue. I would not be an MRA if it weren't for feminism blaming men for all violence (again, I'm referencing the Duluth Model. According to the patriarchal view of violence, men as power holders in society are the only ones capable of committing it. Women, as an oppressed class, can only commit violence in self defense. Sorry for the lack of citation, but google it, that's the essence). That blame has led to a mountain of horribly discriminatory legislation in criminal and civil courts, and has contributed to the criminal justice system and our society not taking domestic violence against men seriously.

3) You may not be a militant feminist who discriminates against men, but you borrow a lot of their talking points.

4) I've read most of this thread, and have seen the insults. I feel like they are mostly coming from one or two redditors. That said, name calling does not advance the discussion; it distracts from whatever else the person is saying, and I'm inclined to ignore those who engage in it. There should almost be a Godwin's law for ad hominem attacks.

5) I'm not sure if I've communicated everything I wanted to say clearly, but honestly I'm too tired to continue. If you look through my comment/post history though, you'll see I have a bias re: IPV, and you'll see why. I don't expect you to of course, but it's there all the same.

[–]DougDante 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I saw mainly a lot of fact based arguments. One person called you a "moron" which is inappropriate and wrong. I've experienced much the same from many feminists.

As you mentioned, our experiences color our views. I think that there's going to be a lot of fundamental disagreements along the feminist men's rights spectrum.

You haven't yelled back, and you seem like a kind person. I like that about you.

I invite you to consider areas of mutual agreement. For example, when boys are raped, it's wrong. We should stop that. They shouldn't be discriminated against as victims. If feminists and men's rights advocates could work together to stop just that one thing (or any other), the world would be a better place.

[–]rbbrks[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

You're right, I think most people here are informed and have important things to say. It just gets me when people assume I'm being negative by omission--just because I support one thing, doesn't mean I don't support another. If people could just give others the benefit of the doubt I think we'd all be happy campers.

Absolutely! I like this approach. We should channel our very ~energetic~ disagreements towards something we can agree on. If all the infighting and MRA vs feminist debate were focused against child sexual abuse, where would we be?

If only.

[–]jammiesoff 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (1子コメント)

It is because until recently feminists denied that men were even 40% of the equation. They fought against it so it would stay as a women's only issue. If feminists really wanted to be for equality they would have already started campaigns that helped men come forward with being abused. But they didn't. I will say more men are not believe or shamed when they come forward with stories of DV. Would you agree or disagree?

and men assume I'm putting down male victims of partner violence. I'm not at all. I'm just saying women are more at-risk.

Try to understand it from our perspective. Men are clearly more likely to commit suicide but there is no outcry from feminists to change this, when compared with how they treat issues about women. When I have brought this up in the past I usually get one of two responses.

1 - Well it is men's fault because they hold in all their emotions, women seek help. If men were more like women this wouldn't happen.

2 - Yes that is true but women have it much more difficult in other areas so lets focus on those.

Now these aren't the exact words used but hopefully you get the idea. Either men are blamed for their own problems, or the conversation is steered to where we are no longer talking about men.

Feminists look at men as victims through the lens of the patriarchy, which means in their eyes we have much more privilege. Thus our issues are often overlooked. So an MRA that responds to as though you are putting down male victims he is responding to the fact that on most other occasions he was dismissed.

[–]rbbrks[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I just struggle to find instances of educated feminists actually saying domestic violence is a "women's only issue" and that they don't think male victims deserve attention. Some nutcases might, sure, but I don't think they should be the ones we measure feminism by. If you could link to something supporting your statement, though, I'll eat my words.

I will say more men are not believe or shamed when they come forward with stories of DV. Would you agree or disagree?

I would agree! But again, not my point. I'll say it loud, men are often victims of DV, and that deserves attention. DV in general deserves attention and action against it.

Those two examples you gave me of responses make me wretch. They ignore and demean the question! That's messed up, and I can say, as a woman who thinks women and men deserve to be treated equally in society, that nobody should ever dismiss an issue as serious as suicide as those individuals in your experience have done.

Men have important problems. I just don't like it when men assume the women they're speaking to don't care about them just because they weren't the first words out of that woman's mouth. I know we all react based on our experiences, and you've clearly been burned by some disrespected in the past, but I just hope MRAs can look at a new woman who is championing women's rights as a woman who may very well support, say, the elimination of circumcision and equality in custodial cases. Sadly, most do not (in my experience).

[–]lostbut302 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (9子コメント)

MRAs ... still tend to demonize women fighting for their rights.

What are some examples of MRAs demonizing women for fighting for rights that they deserve but are unduly being denied?

If you can acknowledge that you wouldn't want to be a woman

When given a singular choice of binary options, to choose one thing over another is not the same as saying that one would specifically not want the other. If one chooses chocolate over vanilla, that does not mean that one dislikes vanilla or finds it offensive; it's just a matter of one's particular taste.

why get angry at women who want to make the answer to this question "it doesn't matter"?

I don't understand where this part is coming from. "It doesn't matter" wasn't even one of the choices you specifically presented in your OP.

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (8子コメント)

Fair enough. Maybe my question was too limiting--I was simply trying to avoid people getting caught up in semantics and hypotheticals in their responses. I do contend that many men would find being a woman offensive, though--this coming from the fact that society actively demeans men for doing stereotypically "female" things (sewing, dancing, even wearing pink). This is a dumb example, but most men I know would be pretty disgusted at the idea of getting their period every month.

And you're right. I don't think MRAs demonize women fighting for rights they deserve and are unduly being denied. I think they demonize women fighting for rights that they, the MRAs, refuse to recognize as legitimate problems--the right, for instance, to walk down a public street without being sexually harassed by passersby. If we can make sexual harassment an offense in the workplace, we can make it an offense in public spaces.

[–]lostbut302 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I do contend that many men would find being a woman offensive, though

Yes, of course there would. And I'm sure there would be many women who would feel the same about becoming a man. My response was in reply to the implication that all such choices would be weighted as zero-sum.

this coming from the fact that society actively demeans men for doing stereotypically "female" things (sewing, dancing, even wearing pink)

A man that switches their gender to a woman would no longer be ruled by their previously male gender role; they would be free to do all the things you listed without having to worry about the same colors of social judgement they would have previously experienced.

the right, for instance, to walk down a public street without being sexually harassed by passersby. If we can make sexual harassment an offense in the workplace, we can make it an offense in public spaces.

Speaking from the perspective of an American, I can't see how the verbal aspect of random/non-repeated harassment (Which I'm interpreting as propositioning, cat-calling, etc.) could possibly be enforced without severely hindering the first amendment rights to freedom of speech and expression in the public sphere. How, for example, could you legally protect people from experiencing unwanted cat-calls, but not protect them from experiencing unwanted religious preaching? The right to not be offended is a treacherously slippery slope.

For the physical aspect of harassment, isn't that covered by existing assault laws?

[–]DavidByron2 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

the right, for instance, to walk down a public street without being sexually harassed by passersby

You think women have a right, or ought to have a right to not be spoken to by strangers in public? Is that what you are demanding there?

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

If you want to smile and say "hello," go ahead! That's polite.

Talking about my genitals is not polite.

[–]DavidByron2 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Look if you want to talk about this whole issue then that's a grand idea but it would take a bit of unpacking to get into. What it comes down to I would say is that women demand that men make the first move in any sexual relationship. That's the shit work in the relationship and nobody likes doing it. Women have all the power so naturally they always make men do the shit work.

If you want to stop street "harassment" then you'd need to -- women that is -- start doing the shit work yourselves. And you'd hate hate hate it. It's incredibly unpleasant. That's the root of what is going on here. Cold approaches to strangers are incredibly unpleasant things for everyone concerned but most everyone needs them to happen because otherwise nobody would ever have a relationship with anyone else. Women have all the power so they force men to do the shit work -- which requires maybe being shot down a hundred times a day -- do you really want to swap? Of course not because if you wanted to you could do the shit work yourself but you don't. Because it's just painful.

Even though it would be 100 times easier for you as a woman to make the approach you can't stand (as a sex) even 1% of the shit men go through, so you make us do it all. And then you have the utter chutzpah to complain about how well we do the job????

Oh yeah, you'd be in for some real shocks as a man.

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I instigated the relationship I had with my very first boyfriend. And I've tried instigating relationships since then, and been rejected! I know it sucks, I know it's shit work, and I know it's unfair that that is always expected of men. But I don't think romantic dynamics are an issue of rights--it's a societal issue, sure, but when men bemoan having to make the first move they're getting away from more important points and issues. Kinda like what's happening here.

Either way, is street harassment really a man trying to instigate a relationship in your mind? I've been harassed, but never asked for my name. If men start relationships by telling me they want to see my pussy, that relationship is not going to last very long. I don't mind being talked to when I'm at a bar--that's why I came to the bar, probably. But when I'm walking down the street? There's no reason for a man to think any advances he makes toward a woman walking swiftly past him on her way to work would be welcome. If your way of hitting on girls is yelling "nice ass, sweetie!" at them from across the street, instead I highly suggest going to a singles bar and introducing yourself kindly and with a little bit of charm to a girl you think is attractive.

I get it. But it's also crazy for a man to take every rejection from a woman he does not know personally as an insult. I've turned down attractive guys because I was feeling kind of nauseous and didn't want to have to awkwardly end a conversation or potential sexual encounter because I felt like throwing up. Literally for that dumb of a reason. Had nothing to do with the guy in question, it was just me not feeling well enough to want to start a flirty conversation. Every rejection is not a personal insult. If you approach people you don't know, especially in places where that isn't the normal social thing to do (on the street, in the drug store, etc.), it probably won't work. And it's not personal.

[–]DavidByron2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

But I don't think romantic dynamics are an issue of rights

You started this by saying women ought to have a right to not be subjected to unwanted sexual attention. Have you changed your mind?

is street harassment really a man trying to instigate a relationship

It's closely related. A lot of it is trying to start a relationship. A lot of it I think is frustration at women because of all the shit work. A lot of it is that if you have to make 100 cold calls a day then you have to dehumanize the target somehow just to be able to live with yourself -- otherwise your soul would be crushed by all the rejection. I don't know, but I imagine telemarketers have the same issues.

I highly suggest

As a woman you wouldn't know anything about this issue. Seriously don't try to patronise men on this topic.

I get it

If you got it then you wouldn't be complaining about street harassment is what I am saying.

it's also crazy for a man to take every rejection from a woman he does not know personally as an insult

No that's pretty much regular human behaviour to take social rejection badly. As I said taking it angrily is probably a defense mechanism. better that you think worse of a stranger you wont see again than think worse of yourself.

You know all this could be easily avoided if women took on their share of the shit work. But that will never happen while women have that power over men.

it's not personal

And neither is street harassment but you still want to go on about it, right?

[–]Juan_Golt 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I think they demonize women fighting for rights that they, the MRAs, refuse to recognize as legitimate problems.

The issue is that in some cases what women consider their rights, can conflict with what men consider their rights. For instance the recent issue of college campuses lowering the standards for sexual assault findings, and increasing the standards for consent. Women may believe that this is a recognition of their rights while men may feel it's an abrogation of their due process.

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Fair point. For what it's worth, I think the standards for rape and rape investigations are generally terrible (for both male and female victims--envelopment not being in the definition is a joke, it's absurd to think a woman cannot rape a man). However I disagree on the consent issue, I think we can't ever really have too much consent--I know it leads to muddled stories, but if the alternative is lowering them you're asking for more rape and I don't think anyone is on board with that.

That being said, I'm talking more about issues like street harassment--MRAs don't seem to think that's a real problem, but the overwhelming majority of women will tell you that it is. In that case, it's not an issue of differing opinion, it's an issue of MRAs refusing to listen because they disagree.

[–]cellardoor3 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (0子コメント)

First, I would like to make clear that I speak for no MRA but myself. That said, I do not get the sense that the MHRM "demonizes women fighting for their rights." I feel that the MHRM is defined by achieving gender equality. While there is a vitriolic minority who appear to "demonize women," the majority, inasmuch as I've observed, strongly critique feminist beliefs and social legislation which discriminate against men. These include, inter alia, domestic violence (you would be disappointed to learn that as a man, not only would you be just as likely to be subjected to IPV, but that you would also be blamed for it), child custody (c.f., NOW and shared parenting), and more recently, the evisceration of due process in rape proceedings. So long as feminists fight against gender equality, MRAs will oppose them. Likewise, I believe that most (if not all) of us support women fighting for or defending their rights as long as it is in line with gender equality, and not superiority.

[–]Eulabeia 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

still tend to demonize women fighting for their rights

What fucking rights? What fucking rights do women not have that you think they should?

[–]rbbrks[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

The right to wear a low-cut shirt and not be told to cover up.

The right to breastfeed my hungry child in public without being told I'm being inappropriate.

The right to walk down the street and not be told that a stranger wants to see my genitals or wants me to put my mouth on his genitals.

The right to earn as much as my identically-qualified, identically-titled colleague who does the same job as me.

The right to be listened to by my boss for my ideas, without having to filter them through a male colleague.

The right to walk home from a bar, after having four drinks and making the responsible decision to not get behind the wheel, and not feel like I'm putting my life at risk for doing so.

The right to go to college and not have a 1/4 chance of being sexually assaulted.

The right to, if I am sexually assaulted at my college, be treated with those who are there allegedly to help me instead of being told to be quiet in order to preserve the reputation of the institution.

There's a lot of these I could list. Don't pretend I have the same rights as men. They're not legal rights per se, but they're human rights.

EDIT: to be clear, I don't think most of these things are the end of the world. But I do think they're problems, and deserve more than for you to imply that there aren't any "fucking rights" that you have that I don't.

[–]Eulabeia 3 ポイント4 ポイント  (3子コメント)

not be told... without being told... not be told

You really believe it should be illegal for others to say things you don't like in certain situations? That's infringing on others' rights to free speech, jackass. You don't want more rights, you want to take away peoples' rights.

The right to earn as much as my identically-qualified, identically-titled colleague who does the same job as me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Pay_Act_of_1963

The right to be listened to by my boss for my ideas, without having to filter them through a male colleague.

Sounds like a personal problem.

The right to walk home from a bar, after having four drinks and making the responsible decision to not get behind the wheel, and not feel like I'm putting my life at risk for doing so.

HUH? I don't even understand exactly what you're getting at here, let alone how it's something unique to women.

The right to go to college and not have a 1/4 chance of being sexually assaulted.

Last I checked sexual assault was a crime.

The right to, if I am sexually assaulted at my college, be treated with those who are there allegedly to help me instead of being told to be quiet in order to preserve the reputation of the institution.

What the hell are you talking about? College campuses all across America are kicking out men accused of rape without any real due process because they don't want to be seen as rape enablers. You live in fantasy land.

Don't pretend I have the same rights as men.

Yeah, you have more. Like reproductive rights, right to bodily integrity at birth (genital cutting), full autonomy (selective service/the draft), the right to be recognized as rape victims. You know, actual fucking legal rights, not just bullshit about how women's lives everywhere aren't perfect so that somehow means they're lacking rights.

They're not legal rights per se, but they're human rights.

What the fucking fuck? Learn what rights are, moron.

[–]rbbrks[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

I'm telling you I don't want to hear an old man tell me to suck his dick when I walk to work. That's all I'm saying. I'm asking for societal change, a movement of people realizing they should be decent to other human beings on a purely human level, not legislation. I defend to the death your right to say you want me to suck your dick, but I hope you have the decency to not say it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

It's not a personal problem. It's a gender problem. I have many female friends who suffer from the same thing. There are lots of women on the internet who suffer from the same thing, if you'd like to read about it I'm sure Google can help you out.

I'm saying I should be able to walk home kinda drunk and not feel like a)I'm putting myself at risk for an attack (which, yes, to address your response before you respond: I know men also are victims of muggings when they walk home drunk from bars) and b) if I do get attacked, not feel like the fact that I had a few drinks will be relevant to the conversation, and if I'm sexually assaulted not feel like someone will ask me what outfit I had on--also irrelevant to the attack

Last I checked sexual assault was a crime.

Yeah, I know? And women at college are much more likely to suffer from sexual assault than men at colleges.

College campuses all across America are kicking out men accused of rape

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/18/james-madison-university-sexual-assault_n_5509163.html yeah, they're really cracking down. Expulsion after graduation is the same as 15 years in prison, right?

reproductive rights

Ah, but if I work for Hobby Lobby I don't get to control my reproductive rights. Also, what reproductive rights do I have that you don't? You get to choose if you're going to impregnate someone, just as she chooses whether or not she wants to be impregnated.

Also why do you hold legal rights on such a high pedestal? The original question was really directed more at societal issues. I know women have mostly the same legal rights as men--I'm talking about what it's like to live as a woman in our society today. Don't get off topic because it supports your points better.

Sidenote: can we stop with the inane insults, please? Stop calling me a moron and a jackass. It doesn't add to the conversation.

[–]Eulabeia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I'm telling you I don't want to hear an old man tell me to suck his dick when I walk to work.

And I don't want to hear you bitch about how sometimes people are rude to you because you don't have any real problems since you live such a privileged life. Now what?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

Yes men, on average, earn more than women when it comes to traceable income. That's because men are the workhorses of society and most women don't want anything to do with men that earn less than them. It's a misconception that men arbitrarily get paid more than women in the exact same position.

I have many female friends who suffer from the same thing.

Suffer from what? Not being listened to and taken seriously all the time? THAT'S NOT UNIQUE TO WOMEN. It sounds more like you think you should have everyone hang on your every word just because you're a woman more than anything here.

I know men also are victims of muggings when they walk home drunk from bars

Then why are you talking about this?

women at college are much more likely to suffer from sexual assault than men at colleges.

Correction, women are more likely to complain about sexual assault and have their reports taken seriously. Who knows often men suffer from "sexual assault" going by today's loose definition of term.

Expulsion after graduation is the same as 15 years in prison, right?

You think some college kids should get 15 years in prison for groping a drunk woman and sharing the video? What? The article even says the campus couldn't determine if it was consensual. But the boys were still punished anyway. Regardless, it shouldn't be up to universities to handle criminal matters like that, it should go to the police. Universities have MUCH lower standards of evidence, which is probably the only reason she even brought it to campus.

Ah, but if I work for Hobby Lobby I don't get to control my reproductive rights.

You mean you don't get free birth control? How does that count as "reproductive rights"?

You get to choose if you're going to impregnate someone

No I don't. I get to choose when I have sex with someone obviously, but I don't get to choose pregnancy (neither does she of course). Accidents happen, and in the case one does happen it's only women that have choices then. Men just have responsibilities. Women can choose to abort or adopt, men have no legal recourse for abdicating parental responsibility post conception. Men can be hooked on child support against their will, even if the child was the result of a crime like statutory rape, or what should be a crime like contraceptive fraud.

Also why do you hold legal rights on such a high pedestal?

You're the one who started talking about rights, don't try to turn this around on me like I tried to change the subject when you get argued into a corner you can't find a way out of.

But anyway, legal rights are more concrete and provable than any kind of abstract shit you feel supports your point better (because you feel it's easier to make shit up).

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

And I don't want to hear you bitch about how sometimes people are rude to you because you don't have any real problems since you live such a privileged life. Now what?

Well then don't answer my question on reddit! But you chose to come here, inviting my "bitching" willfully into your world. You know that reddit is a place where people talk and bitch and that's what it's meant for. Streets are meant for walking and transportation, not sexual harassment. I never invited an old man telling me to suck his dick into my world.

That's because men are the workhorses of society and most women don't want anything to do with men that earn less than them

You're being a parody of yourself. You really think women don't work hard in today's society? Come on. Single mothers working two jobs to feed their kids aren't working hard?

It's a misconception that men arbitrarily get paid more than women in the exact same position.

No…it's really not. All you have to do is read the first bullet point of this article. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2728405/Women-work-aged-79-equal-mens-total-earnings-65-Experts-say-figures-paint-depressing-picture-treatment-women-workplace.html

Not being listened to and taken seriously all the time? THAT'S NOT UNIQUE TO WOMEN.It sounds more like you think you should have everyone hang on your every word just because you're a woman more than anything here.

No, that's wrong. I've said elsewhere on this thread that I know I'm not a genius, and I know I shouldn't be taken seriously 100% of the time. You can search for the phrase if you want proof. You're projecting your ideas of what you think I'm saying to you, putting words in my mouth. Don't, that's not helpful, it just makes us both angrier. Either way, my point was that I have to filter my thoughts through a male colleague for them to be taken seriously by my superiors. Not because of the quality of the thought, but because of the gender of the person whose brain espoused it. That's unfair. I should be taken seriously for good work, and I should be dismissed for bad work, just like you.

Then why are you talking about this?

Because of everything I wrote surrounding that cherry-picked quote! Here's the most important part, slightly rephrased in case you didn't read it the first time: "if I do get attacked, I don't want to feel like the fact that I had a few drinks will be relevant to the conversation, and if I'm sexually assaulted I don't want to feel like someone will ask me what outfit I had on"

Correction, women are more likely to complain about sexual assault and have their reports taken seriously. Who knows often men suffer from "sexual assault" going by today's loose definition of term.

Okay, but going by reported statistics--aka the only reasonable, factual data we have to go off of--women have it worse than men on college campuses. It also makes sense biologically, for most men can easily overpower most women physically. You know that's true. More men rape women, in general, than women rape men or men rape men. I know male rape is underreported, but rape in general is underreported, so for every example of a man failing to report I can find you a woman who failed to report.

You think some college kids should get 15 years in prison for groping a drunk woman and sharing the video?

No, but I also think they shouldn't feel like they have the right to grope a woman and share the video. But in every practical way, they do have the right to do so--they got off essentially scot-free. Seriously, what "punishment" is that? Getting cut out of alumni networks? Maybe? I do agree, though, that colleges have no place in criminal proceedings. Don't assume why that woman reported to the college though, it doesn't make you look good when you imply that women only report rapes to places where there's a lower standard of evidence.

You mean you don't get free birth control? How does that count as "reproductive rights"?

No, I mean I don't get to choose the kind of birth control my government-issed health insurance gives me access to. That's kind of…everything about reproductive rights?

Accidents happen, and in the case one does happen it's only women that have choices then.

Ultimately, sex is a choice. You choose to put yourself in the place to accidentally impregnate someone--admitting that accidents happen proves that you acknowledge the risks involved with sex. And I will absolutely say the same thing to a woman. If a woman has sex with a male partner, there is a risk for pregnancy and she should accept every responsibility that comes with that . I understand that men have no legal recourse for abdicating parental responsibility, but there is also a phenomenon of single mothers whose children's fathers are alive, well, and doing absolutely nothing to support their family. Explain that to me before you get upset about men getting trapped into child support. I do agree that contraceptive fraud should be a crime, though, because it's willful.

You're the one who started talking about rights

Yeah, okay, but the word "rights" has many meanings. I was under the impression that the context of the discussion here was clear in the question--I was asking a question about a choice one would make in our modern society, not about legal rights.

I don't think I've talked myself in a corner. People who have talked themselves into a corner tend to get defensive, rude, and crass to try to beat their way back into the discussion. I've done my best to stay civil here.

[–]jpflathead 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

If you can acknowledge that you wouldn't want to be a woman, why get angry at women who want to make the answer to this question "it doesn't matter"?

I'm not very clear what you mean in specific by that.

OTOH, I do at times interpret the (feminist) fight for gender neutrality to have a not terribly hidden agenda to shame on punish traditional masculinity.

Feminism was against gay men, until feminism could piggy back on gay rights.

Feminism was against transgender women, until feminism could piggy back on gay rights.

Feminism does not support stay at home moms.

Feminism does not support stay at home dads (see Jessica Valenti's Father's Day column.)

Feminism does not support men whose natural inclinations are to be silent and tough out a situation instead pushes on demands for "the sensitive new age guy" who even femnists agree is not sexy enough for them.

Feminism does not support "envelopment" as rape, and feminist support for broadening rape definitions that at times help men can really be seen as feminists supporting a broadening of rape definitions that dramatically help feminists and coincidentally help men.

Same thing with so many issues concerning men that feminism claim credit for. It's mostly a coincidence, and/or mostly just smoke because when it comes to laws, feminists are almost always uniformly opposed.

OTOH I said I wasn't clear what you are getting at, and I am not, so I'll leave that rant there.

[–]jpflathead 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (12子コメント)

Shorter me:

I don't see MRAs demonizing women for fighting for their rights. I think most MRAs respect and admire women fighting for their rights.

What is demonized is

  • enormous overreach where "equality" becomes "substantive equality" (which is basically advocating inequality just favoring women.)
  • inability to recognize enormous advances

If something is demonized it is very privileged feminists claiming they are victims and oppressed. Justifying their first world problems by looking to the third world and exploiting inequities there.

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (11子コメント)

I hear you, and I agree for the most part--I don't think feminism as a whole is a coherent movement, I think a lot of "feminists" don't fully understand the complexities of the arguments they claim to support. That's part of the reason why I don't identify myself as a feminist--I'm not, really. I'm just a woman who sees inequality in this world, the harshest of which tend to make women vulnerable and less powerful.

As a generally privileged, upper class woman, however, I still do think I'm oppressed. I don't think it's in any major, significant, threatening way at the moment--I have never experienced abuse or sexual assault, I don't have a job where the pay gap would come into play, so on so forth.

However, when in conversations with men, I see and hear them ignoring my opinions, only to agree with those same opinions when voiced by male colleagues. I've had a boss tell me that I should wear a tighter skirt to work with a visible erection underneath his pants. I've had a stranger yell "I wanna see your pussy" while I walked down the street, with two companions, at midday. Those things aren't as bad as the more pertinent issues of feminism, but those are things that it seems many MRAs dismiss as unimportant. I'm not a victim, really, but I am not treated with respect when I should and could be.

[–]Eulabeia 2 ポイント3 ポイント  (5子コメント)

As a generally privileged, upper class woman, however, I still do think I'm oppressed.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. This is why we don't take you and all other feminists seriously.

those are things that it seems many MRAs dismiss as unimportant

And they aren't important. Not even close. I know there are probably some people here who will try to kiss your ass and pretend to feel sorry for you about things things, but I won't. Because they're, at best, first world problems. Let's discuss:

  • Someone didn't take something you said seriously and you immediately concluded that it was because you were a girl. First of all, that kind of thing doesn't only happen to women. Second, it couldn't have happened to you for a hundred other reasons. Maybe they only didn't say anything when you were the only one who said it, and only then had to agree when it seemed like it's what everyone else thought. Maybe they were just trying to suck up to whoever else said it because they were in a position of power over them or had something they wanted.

  • People being overtly sexual with you. BOO HOO. This is the definition of a first world problem because it's something that some others wished happened to them. But it's a "problem" for you because you lack perspective and take your position of sexual power for granted.

So did you actually have anything real to complain about? Since everything you've brought up so far about how women supposedly have it worse has turned out to be complete bullshit.

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

Read the rest of my post before laughing. Don't tell me you'd be laughing if you were in the room with me when my boss had an erection while talking about the tightness of my clothes. That fucking sucked. Why isn't that important? I'm lucky it didn't escalate. A lot of "first world" girls aren't so lucky. Some bosses rape young girls when they're alone in offices with them.

I understand that people aren't going to take me seriously all the time--I'm not a genius, I don't know everything, I shouldn't be taken seriously 100% of the time. But when I walk into a room of older men I haven't met, and they'll only talk to me about my father whereas they talk to my brother about what he's majoring in and what sports he plays, I know it has something to do with my gender. Don't dismiss my social instincts, human beings know how to pick up on social cues.

And I'm sorry, just don't go there. Don't tell me that just because some people wish they had more sex, I don't get to feel uncomfortable when my boss has a raging boner in front of me as he ogles my ass. I want to be seen sexually when, and only when, I am feeling sexual. That's the only time it is welcome in my world. That's what I want. I know that's not going to happen, but one of the biggest flaws in our society is that men feel the right to see women sexually all of the time.

I don't have sexual power over anyone. It's a myth that men are controlled by women's sexuality. Are you telling me that--you have no idea what I look like, you don't know if you're attracted to me at all--if I walked into the room you're sitting in and told you I wanted to have sex with you you would have NO CHOICE but to be controlled by my vaginal mysticism? Bull. Men have a choice to take themselves out of a sexual context mentally.

I have very real things to complain about. You just don't listen to those things because you don't agree with them.

[–]Eulabeia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (3子コメント)

Don't tell me you'd be laughing if you were in the room with me when my boss had an erection while talking about the tightness of my clothes.

Okay I did gloss over the part about your boss saying this so I'll have to change my position a bit and admit that's kind of serious. But you do have a lot more power in this situation than you seem to believe, especially compared to any man that finds himself in similar circumstances. If where you work has an HR department you can take your complaint there and it's likely at the very least you won't have to work with him anymore if he was your direct supervisor. Or if it doesn't you can try to discuss it with anyone else really and chances are high they'll sympathize and try to work at some sort of corrective action. If not then it's likely a shitty place to work and you should GTFO of there ASAP because that's probably not even the only problem if people can abuse their authority so easily there.

But like I said, women have it a thousand times better than men when it comes to complaints about sexual harassment in the workplace being taken seriously, and most places of employment are becoming more strict about as time goes on. Like even in the military our asses get hammered SAPR briefings all the time and they make sure to let everyone know they take that shit seriously and how they can report misconduct even anonymously.

But when I walk into a room of older men I haven't met, and they'll only talk to me about my father whereas they talk to my brother about what he's majoring in and what sports he plays, I know it has something to do with my gender.

Well do you expect them to talk to you about sports? Are you attending college? What kind of common ground is an old man supposed to find with a young woman? What does any of that even have to do with you being taken seriously?

Don't tell me that just because some people wish they had more sex, I don't get to feel uncomfortable

You do, I didn't say you can't. It's just not always a serious issue. I'm uncomfortable when ugly women try to come on to me but that's not a real problem. That's something you complain about to your friends when you're just trying to make conversation, not something to be brought up as an example of a civil rights issue.

I know that's not going to happen, but one of the biggest flaws in our society is that men feel the right to see women sexually all of the time.

No, the problem here is you expect everyone to treat you exactly how you want all the time and even you can admit that's an unrealistic and unreasonable demand. Men have the right to hit on women and vice versa. And you have the right to reject them. How the fuck else do you really expect people to get together and form intimate relationships?

if I walked into the room you're sitting in and told you I wanted to have sex with you you would have NO CHOICE but to be controlled by my vaginal mysticism?

Yeah that's exactly what I said.

Not.

I was saying that if you have something that someone else wants, that's a form of power you have over them. Don't act stupid and pretend you don't understand that simple concept.

[–]rbbrks[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (2子コメント)

Thanks for the position switch, I respect a guy who can admit when he skims a bit (we all do it…). Anyway, yeah, but my (I should clarify I no longer work for this man) ex-boss has been at the company for 9 years and as far as I'm aware, there's never been a complaint against him. So it would be my word against his, most likely--and I think this is another area where MRAs are a little shortsighted--and that shit still matters. I know people say accusations ruin mens careers, and they do, but a lot of accusations are pushed to the side by HR departments as being unprovable. A friend of a friend of mine (I say this so you all know I'm getting this information secondhand, and I cannot personally verify the truth of it, but it's hardly an absurd scenario) was in a similar situation, except her boss touched her under the guide of "neck rubs." She reported him to a (female!) HR rep, who brushed off her complaint because the boss in question apparently did that sort of thing all the time and "didn't mean anything by it." It's a pervasive problem, those creepy older dudes with a bunch of young college-age female interns working for them and a distinct power dynamic already in place. Boss-secretary fantasy much?

You're right though, I think a lot of workplaces are sensationalizing accusations to the point of not letting the accused defend him or herself (often a "him," lets be real). I'll always sympathize with the wrongfully accused losing a job or career, but I think it's simply a case of the first reaction to a problem being to overcorrect--things will even out with time, and with more recognition that women may be using sexual harassment allegations to their unfair advantage.

I do expect them to, actually! I played four years of varsity soccer at my (D3, admittedly) college, and did pretty well in terms of my conference. Such an easy topic for them to awkwardly talk to me about for 5 minutes, but they choose to ask about my dad's golf game and his job. My point is that their instinct isn't to ask me about my life, as if it's something worth asking about, it's to ask me about my dad. I should add these aren't even my dad's friends, these are the parents of friends of mine at a neighborhood gathering.

I'm uncomfortable when ugly women try to come on to me but that's not a real problem.

I hear you. But ugly women aren't threatening to you. I can genuinely say, as a 5'3" woman, that I get scared sometimes when I see a creepy guy's smile flicker into disappointment and then, often, anger, when I tell him I'm not interested. And I really don't try to be rude to these guys when it happens--I know rejection sucks, so I try my best to be kind in my responses to their unwanted advances (if they're polite to me, that is). I don't think you face the same issue with unattractive women--I'm physically threatened, you're bothered. It's very much an issue, because a lot of angry, rejected men take their anger out on women.

the problem here is you expect everyone to treat you exactly how you want all the time

I think when what I'm asking for is respect, I'm allowed to expect that. Maybe I'm stupid for doing so, but I'm going to keep expecting strangers to be respectful to me. I'm not worried about being hit on in a scenario where it makes sense for me to be hit on--a bar, for example. That's where I'm gonna be willing to talk to you and form relationships. But if men expect me, say, to stop walking to work or shopping for shampoo and engage them in conversation after they've hit on me out of the blue, that's men expecting ME to treat them exactly how they want all the time. Come on now.

I know, I'm not acting stupid, I was just using hyperbole to try to demonstrate how ridiculous I thought your point was. And I still do. Guess what--I want sex too! But I don't claim men have power over me to control that part of my brain. I know I have the ability to divert sexual thoughts when it's not an appropriate time to be having sexual thoughts--men do too. But because society at large claims men think about sex constantly and they're controlled by their dicks, they have more of an excuse to act lewdly. "But I'm a guy! I can't help it! You're hot!" Just stop it, 25 year old men are not prepubescent boys discovering boobs for the first time. They can control themselves.

[–]Eulabeia 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think you face the same issue with unattractive women--I'm physically threatened, you're bothered. It's very much an issue, because a lot of angry, rejected men take their anger out on women.

Fuck you asshole. Women get angry at rejection too and they are just as capable of violence as men. Stature is irrelevant if you're attacked by surprise or they're brandishing a weapon. And not only am I potentially physically threatened by her, but also by any other nearby white knights she manages to convince I'm an asshole for daring to reject her. Fuck off this double standard bullshit.

Guess what--I want sex too! But I don't claim men have power over me to control that part of my brain.

Men who you want to have sex with have power over you. You're more willing to do them favors or give them attention. Maybe not you, specifically, all the time, but that's generally how it works.

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Calm down! I'm not an asshole. I am a small woman who is physically incapable of fighting off a 6 foot tall, 180 pound man. I'm allowed to feel threatened. I don't really care how often you tell me that women can threaten men too. I'm not saying they don't. I'm saying in an instant, a man who I'm speaking to face-to-face can put his hands around my throat and choke me out where I can absolutely not do the same thing to most men successfully. A man is much more likely to disarm me if I have a weapon than I am to disarm him if he has one--he could hold a knife over his head and I couldn't jump to grab it. It's not a double standard that men are physically dominant over men, and that that fact sits in my mind every time I talk to a man I don't know well. There's a reason I would text a friend of mine to tell her exactly where I'm going and when I expect to be home when I go out on a blind date, and you wouldn't think to do the same. You're not expecting a woman to jump you and attack you, but it's something I've been taught to be wary of coming from men. That's not my fault, that's the culture I was raised in.

Men who you want to have sex with have power over you.

Okay, and men who want to have sex with me are willing to do me favors and give me attention. Is that what having power over someone is? I'm talking more about this cultural notion that men cannot control their actions, and are therefore less responsible for them, when aroused by a woman. There's nobody saying "ah, but that guy was dressed like a slut! What do you expect?" if I shout something obscene at a man walking by.

[–]jpflathead 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (4子コメント)

I can't easily speak to the sexual harassment you've encountered. I am certain that sucks. Just as I long on the other hand to have had some sexual attention directed towards me. It sucks never having gotten that. Oppression by men, or just the human condition?

(I'm not excusing in any way the egregious behavior of your boss.)

I've been ignored often times in meetings. Often times when frankly, I knew I was right (and more educated on the issues).

I've been overlooked for promotions. My attention to detail and the quality of my work has been ignored.

The various social climbers have gotten many promotions even when the workers knew their contributions were a net negative.

Work is fucked.

That's not to dismiss your experiences but to recast them. Oppression by men? Or just how humans suck? PATRIARCHY? Or a co-constructed society? Something to blame on men? Something to pass laws over? Or something to raise awareness about and discuss via other channels (movies, fiction, song, literature, talk shows, ...)

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

It could just be a work issue, that's very true. I'd be the last to imply that my ideas deserve undivided attention at all times. I'm happy to have my bad ideas tossed to the side--but if it's because they're bad ideas, not if it's because they're just ideas coming from a woman my boss will assume are bad. I would love to be cast aside for my stupidity, if I'm being stupid--how else will I learn to not be stupid?? Sadly I know a lot of these things are tied to my gender. I've come into new workplaces, as an intern, along with a male intern of the same qualifications (we even went to the same college), and had my boss assign him a new challenging project while making me his administrative assistant thoughtlessly. Why would he do that without giving us a chance to show him our skills?

In terms of sexual attention, I don't know about you, but if some strange woman you didn't know and were not attracted to came up to you and told you she wanted to see your genitals, and persisted after you made it clear you did not find her attractive in any way, would you really take that as welcome? To me, those things are scary and creepy. I don't want to be seen sexually 100% of the time--I want to be seen sexually when I'm feeling sexual.

[–]jpflathead 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

would you really take that as welcome

is sort of different to the plight of many men and some women, which is that yes, it would be nice to experience from time to time.

Imagine the loneliness of always being the pursuer. And even being shamed for being unsuccessful or having none of the attributes or qualities.

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

That's interesting. To me, it's always just kind of creepy to hear unsolicited sexual advances. But you're right, some women and many men are okay with it. I guess I just think people should err on the side of caution in that particular reason.

And oh, I know! I've pursued, and been rejected. It sucks. I think men and women should be on the same plane in that area too--one of the reasons I don't mind texting a guy first or things of that ilk. Men are asked to pursue, even though its equally exciting for both genders to be pursued.

[–]jpflathead 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (0子コメント)

Anyway, hopefully I am signing off.

Thank you for an interesting conversation.

[–]DavidByron2 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (4子コメント)

demonize women fighting for their rights

What rights? Women have more rights than men. There is no right women lack that men have. There sis simply no such thing as someone fighting for women's rights unless they are fighting for inequality, for special privileges for women over men. I'll demonize that attitude.

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (3子コメント)

the right to simple human respect from strangers with regard to my body. we cannot legislate this, I know, free speech. I guess I'm just asking everyone to be respectful to one another, while pointing out that men are disproportionalty disrespectful to women in many settings.

And before you say it, yeah, I know women can be mean to guys who ask them out. Women can be disrespectful too. I know.

[–]DavidByron2 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (2子コメント)

the right to simple human respect

And you think that should be a law do you?

we cannot legislate this

OK, so what on earth do you mean by saying it is a right?

men are disproportionalty disrespectful to women

Sounds like you're just insulting men to me. Do you have any data to back up your claim?

[–]rbbrks[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント  (1子コメント)

I don't think it should be a law. I said above that we cannot legislate that.

Do you really think that we, as a species, should not try to be decent to one another in a very general level? I try to be respectful to people in all settings, and I think that it is my right as a human being to demand that standard of respect from my fellow human beings. I understand, again, that we cannot have the "mean police" running around arresting people for being rude--all I mean here is that we should hold each other accountable for being respectful to others instead of blindly defending things that are clearly offensive, traumatizing, and hurtful because of our right to free speech. As I've said elsewhere, I'll defend to the death your right to yell obscene things at me but I expect you as a human being to treat me with enough dignity and respect to not do so. We shouldn't do things just because, and for no other reason than, the fact that we're allowed to do them.

[–]DavidByron2 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

So why make this an issue of men vs women as you have? In any case I would claim women insult men far more than the other way around.

[–]DulcineaIsAWhore 1 ポイント2 ポイント  (0子コメント)

I think I really just want to know why many MRAs, most of whom would answer "male" to this question, still tend to demonize women fighting for their rights.

I don't disparage women fighting for their rights. In fact, at one time I actually considered myself a feminist. Along with that, I expected that feminists would support men in achieving equality in instances where they are discriminated against. And here we are 30 years later, and I'm still waiting. And feminists are still doing everything they can to prevent men from achieving equality in instances where they are discriminated against.

I do not disparage women fighting for their rights.

I DO disparage women for disparaging men for fighting for their rights. I do disparage women for fighting against bills that implement rebuttable presumption of shared custody. I do disparage women for believing and promoting a notion that they are above reproach, while providing no such presumption for men. I do disparage women for not voting in favor of being included in selective service registration. I do disparage women for supporting the notion that they should maintain certain legal privileges in society that stem, fundamentally from a chivalrous concept that women are to be more protected than men.

Is it so hard to understand?

Equal rights for women is fine. It's already here. But you have to understand that the corollary to this, is that chivalry under the law is dead -- no man need subject himself to unfair treatment for the sake of any woman. Period.