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just about everyone has preferences and prejudices.  some are based on actual experience, others based on fear, misinformation and disinformation.

but racism is a problem of institutionalization, where one group has the power to take its prejudices and exercise them with impunity under de facto color of law (regardless what the laws on the books actually are).

That is what racism is, and that is what I was taught racism is, years before I was subjected to "diversity training" at the hands of hamhanded naifs and other forward-thinking progressives who want to move this culture in a different direction.

Current Massachusetts law (and obvious common sense to the non-authoritarian mind) says that yelling at a cop is not an arrestable offense or a crime.  Two recent cases () have held that it does not rise to the official legal standard of disorderly conduct.

But. among other things, what we have in the Gates event is a white cop upset about being called racist, so he arrests Gates for yelling at a cop.  On his own front porch, which most people consider part of their home and not public property.

certainly they both made prejudgments.  Crowley initially thought Gates was a suspicious person.  He was proven wrong.  Gates initially thought Crowley's actions were guided by racism.  Until someone shows me a parallel situation happening to a white man by a black cop, I believe Gates has been proven right.  Since July 16 people have been searching for a SINGLE example of the situation in reverse.  OTOH in the black community there are so many stories like Gates' story that it is practically standard operating procedure.  therefore

you cannot equate Crowley's prejudgments with whatever prejudgments ates may have made, in part because Gates's prejudgments did not have equal power to put Crowley in handcuffs.

Crowley will NEVER apologize.  It is abundantly clear that in his mind he has done nothing wrong.  He does not see the racism in the series of prejudgments he made.  He does not recognize that his abuse of power in that particular situation reflects institutionalized racism in one of its commonest (and most widely resented) forms.

And if I can assume that Crowley as a Republican and a cop has an authoritarian mindset, Crowley will never apologize because respect for authority is the highest value he holds: more important than respect for Constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties, more important than respect for Massachusetts law, more important than the concept of basic fairness, more important than anything.  Crowley will probably defend his actions for the rest of his life, believing Gates deserved arrest because people simply must be taught they cannot disrespect authority whenever they like.  Even in their own homes, or on their front porches.

I do have trouble with the assertion that all white people are racist.  However, all white people consciously and unconsciously benefit in small and large ways from the racism in the general culture.  And one of those benefits is not experiencing the "driving while black", "shopping while black", "walking while black", "angry on your front porch while black" kind of police attention on a regular basis in your life and the lives of our friends and family.

Therefore, according to this institutional power definition, it is not possible in this country for black people to be "racist".  Yes we have a black president, and a few second/third generation black leaders in majority black areas, but African Americans and people of color do not have institutionalized power, established over centuries, to impose their prejudices and preferences on the majority culture.

IMO that is the greatest fear of racist whites--that blacks, gaining power, would begin to treat whites the same way whites have treated non-whites ever since they arrived in North America almost 500 years ago.  But the passage of a few civil rights laws, the singing of a few affirmative action statutes, the proliferation of mandatory cultural sensitivity seminars in the workplace, and other similar efforts over the last 50-odd years do NOT have equal cultural impact except on FRuitloop victim radio and Fox GOPropaganda Channel.  Still they worry when they see Obama in the White House and think about Sotomayor on the Supreme Court and imagine more and more non-whites having their voices heard in the halls of power, they worry that the long-term maintenance of their institutionalized privilege is in danger.

It is my fervent hope that, before the anger and frustration genie stirred up by the Henry Louis Gates situation gets shoved back into the bottle, we will make this a teachable moment and have a national conversation about race and power.  That, and maybe some policeman might think a moment before jumping on his usual power trip and wonder--maybe I should back off here before it turns into one of those Gates situations.

In the meantime, I wish that at least here in the capital of Left Blogistan we could stop talking about black people being "racist".

It demeans the larger meaning of that term to equate it with mere prejudice.

Originally posted to TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:36 PM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Tip Jar (15+ / 0-)

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:36:38 PM PDT

    •  How about the tribe in OK that is trying to (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vico, snakelass, whaddaya, Ezekial 23 20

      deregister members that have some black ancestors who were slaves of that tribe?  And yeah, the tribe had a full-blooded member who was a Confederate general. . .

      It is not power that corrupts, but fear. Be fearless & show humility. (h/t)Aung San Suu Kyi

      by sturunner on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:54:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  "I hate ALL white people" (10+ / 0-)

      Those were the words I heard on my first day of work from a co-worker in a black majority nonprofit organization.

      BTW- my manager (also African-American) was sitting right next to us and said NOTHING. It was made very clear there that whites were not welcome.

      There was racism alright.  I've got plenty of stories if you want to hear them.

      Anyone can be a racist. It's ridiculous to say otherwise.

      •  No one is saying.... (6+ / 0-)

        ....that minorities don't have prejudiced views of whites. Some do. Maybe even a lot. There are a lot of racial misunderstandings and hostilities in this country. But the notion that it's 50/50 is ludicrous. Whites have a vast majority of power and influence over this country and as a result, white prejudice against African-Americans or Asian-Americans or Latinos or Native Americans is a more serious problem than any other form of prejudice.

        •  There are areas of the country where it is 50/50 (0+ / 0-)

          The place that I spoke of above was in Delaware.
          The racial tensions there are the worst I've ever seen.  And it goes both ways.

          I was born there but raised in Texas.  You hear a lot about racism in places like Texas- but believe me- there was nothing there that could even COME CLOSE to what I saw in De.

          I've lived in many several different states and 4 different countries.  It's different everywhere you go.

          •  I simply can't think.... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueMajority

            ....of that many places in the country where minorities have the sort of power to negatively impact whites. I live right by Philadelphia, which is a majority black city, with a black mayor. Yet, my employer, which has a majority of employees who are black, has an almost all white management. There's one black supervisor, and he's at the lowest level of supervision. I'm sure there are some black employees there who have some hostility towards whites (or other racial groups), but they're not really in a position to effect them. Whereas, management, who are almost all white, can certainly make your life miserable if they don't like you and yes, there have been incidents.

  •  So powerless poor hicks aren't racist? (12+ / 0-)

    What about rich powerful blacks? Can they be racists?

    And what are powerless people that hate entire races because of color called?

    http://www.projectposner.org/

    by Common Cents on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:38:53 PM PDT

      •  What? Using the dictionary? (11+ / 0-)

        that's like cheating!  :-)

        (see my post below)

      •  quoting the dictionary is like quoting the law (5+ / 0-)

        it's not what's on or in the books, it's what people actaully do and experience

        Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

        by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:56:36 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  That is very convenient. (6+ / 0-)

          Maybe we should make you the arbiter of what counts.

          http://www.projectposner.org/

          by Common Cents on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:57:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You mean like this? (9+ / 0-)

          Current Massachusetts law (and obvious common sense to the non-authoritarian mind) says that yelling at a cop is not an arrestable offense or a crime.  Two recent cases () have held that it does not rise to the official legal standard of disorderly conduct.

          I am a warrior for peace. And not a gentle man... Steve Mason, 1940-2005

          by Wayward Wind on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:59:15 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm wondering if you will get an answer to this. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueMajority, Wayward Wind

            I wish I could rec you a million times for pointing this out.

            http://www.projectposner.org/

            by Common Cents on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:12:55 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  i'm confused--why wouldn't I answer this (3+ / 0-)

              it doesn't matter what case law says is disorderly conduct--police will arrest you because they want to and because they can.

              and it doesn't matter whether the dictionary (written by whom?) acknowledges the importance of institutional racism--subtle (and overt) institutional racism is the reason why race is such a tinderbox in this country, not because of white supremacists asserting the inherent superiority of whites and the inherent inferiority of blacks.

              Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

              by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:29:57 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It doesn't matter what the law is? (4+ / 0-)

                I think that there is a whole group of folks who would vigorously disagree with you - they are called judges.

                I have read everything that I can find about the Gates/Crowley incident, listened to the tapes, read the law and the cases, and am leaning toward the fact that both participants were in uncharted territory as the root of the problem: Crowley was not accustomed to dealing with folks who are naturally suspicious of and hostile to his profession (and certainly not without reason), and Professor Gates was similarly unaccustomed to being confronted by an authority figure who did not immediately understand that he was not a threat.

                Had either one of them responded in a slightly different manner, the incident would have ended quickly and amicably; instead, it escalated from the moment that they met.

                Back to the original point: the law does indeed matter: from what I have read, there is flat out no way that a judge would have upheld the charge, and it would have been dismissed on motion.

                I see two distinct benefits emanating from this incident.  First, I guarantee that there are a whole group of police in Massachusetts who learned more about the permissible use of the disorderly conduct statute than they ever knew before; second, I believe, if Crowley and Gates follow through on their stated intentions, this could serve as the catalyst for a broad and thorough discussion of the chasm that exists between law enforcement and the minority communities, something that is urgently needed and long overdue.

                I am a warrior for peace. And not a gentle man... Steve Mason, 1940-2005

                by Wayward Wind on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:46:58 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i can agree with this post 100% (3+ / 0-)

                  I wish the case had gone to trial so there would be yet a third case saying that this kind of behavior does not constitute disorderly conduct.

                  but you are quite right and I am glad that

                  there are a whole group of police in Massachusetts who learned more about the permissible use of the disorderly conduct statute than they ever knew before

                  that could definitely have a positive impact on a lot of innocent people's lives for the rest of the summer and beyond.

                  and as I understand it, Gates and Crowley have both expressed a willingness to be involved on a continuing basis with the process of healing and reconciliation in Cambridge, a town that thinks of itself as a place where things like this aren't supposed to happen.

                  so in the long run I believe some good will come of this.

                  Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                  by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:59:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  I must flatly disbelieve this sentence: (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Euroliberal, DaNang65, Ezekial 23 20

                  Crowley was not accustomed to dealing with folks who are naturally suspicious of and hostile to his profession

                  If you're a police officer, and have never encountered people who fear, distrust, and despise police officers, then you can have never served a day on the street, period.

                  Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

                  by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:09:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I saw it many times (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TrueBlueMajority, snakelass, Prachar

                    as a street cop for four years in a large urban department.  

                    We had cops transfer in from suburban departments and it took some of them quite a while to get used to the fact that they were viewed and treated much differently in the inner city than in their former departments.  

                    Both of my sons are now cops in the same department, and have had exactly the same experiences.

                    I am a warrior for peace. And not a gentle man... Steve Mason, 1940-2005

                    by Wayward Wind on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:16:33 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  If it wasn't Crowley's first day, then it's bogus (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Euroliberal, snakelass

                      and if he was unaware that there are folks who fear, despise, and distrust police, he's simply not to be allowed out alone. No one so deluded is.

                      Hint: you don't have to be from "the inner city" to despise or distrust police. I've lived in suburbs all my life, and don't trust cops further than I can throw them, nor do I take my eyes off them for a moment.

                      And that's speaking as someone who's had multiple family members as police, deupties, bailiffs, etc.

                      Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

                      by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:28:57 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  That's a pretty broad brush (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        nickrud

                        that you paint with....must make for interesting family gatherings when you tell relatives that you don't trust them further than you can throw them because of their choice of profession...

                        I am a warrior for peace. And not a gentle man... Steve Mason, 1940-2005

                        by Wayward Wind on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:18:01 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  not true (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    never forget 2000, snakelass, Prachar

                    not true at all.

                    there are still plenty of neighborhoods where cops get automatic deference and respect.

                    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:26:15 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  So why are you conflating this incident, (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TrueBlueMajority

                better yet..  Why are you reducing this incident to race?   It wasn't about the color of their skin.  It was about the size of their dicks. Race was just a side bar issue.  It got to be primary because Gates is Gates and both he and Obama happen to be black.

                Hate is ugly, no matter what color the hater.   By turning this into racism, it misses the bigger picture and pigeon holes the debate to what is acceptable discourse.    Breathing while black is a real and tragic reality.  Yelling racism at every drop of the hat undermines its validity.   Cops shouldn't be abusing their power - with anybody, regardless of color, creed, gender, age, etc.  Unfortunately, American law enforcement is all about equal opportunity abuse of power.  

                "YES WE CAN" doesn't mean he is going to. ~~Daily Show

                by dkmich on Sun Aug 02, 2009 at 02:03:08 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  i'm not reducing the incident to just race (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dkmich

                  i know testosterone was involved.  i know class was involved.  but i am surprised at people on dK who claim that race played an insignificant role because it was all about police power, or that it was all about town/gown and posturing, or that Gates was "equally racist".

                  Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                  by TrueBlueMajority on Sun Aug 02, 2009 at 07:24:24 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  oops--I forgot to put in the cases (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            never forget 2000, snakelass

            Commonwealth v. Mallahan, 72 Mass.App.Ct. 1103, 889 N.E.2d 77, (2008) and In Commonwealth v. Lopiano, 60 Mass. App. Ct. 723, (2004)

            In Lopiano, an appeals court held it was not disorderly conduct for a person who angrily yelled at an officer that his civil rights were being violated. In Mallahan the court reaffirmed that yelling at a police officer is not disorderly conduct.

            Furthermore, the case law clearly requires a person to be in a public place in order to be convicted of disorderly conduct. The Mallahan decision stated that " . . . the mere fact that persons may be drawn to a scene because of noise and 'verbal cacophony' does not mean that a defendant has engaged in criminally tumultuous disorderly conduct."

            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

            by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:26:45 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  Next time I'm on trial (4+ / 0-)

          I'll try your approach, and cite not staturtes and caselaw, but "what people actaully do and experience."



          Practicing Law without a License is my 3d favorite Crime.

          by ben masel on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:10:59 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  it might have helped Henry Louis Gates (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GN1927

            he could have cited case law at Crowley all he wanted.  he was still in danger of being arrested regardless of case law, and if he had been thinking about what people actually do and experience instead of thinking he had legal and statutory rights in his own home, he might have behaved differently and not been arrested.

            the next time you get stopped unfairly by a police officer who is harassing you I hope you think about what people actually do and experience.  citing case law and statutes to the policeman in question is a very bad idea in that situation and even dangerous.

            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

            by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:31:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  My actual experiernce differs. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              TrueBlueMajority, snakelass

              By citing the caselaw upfront, should the arrest occur anyway, the officer can't plead ignorance.



              Practicing Law without a License is my 3d favorite Crime.

              by ben masel on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:46:30 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  that's cool I suppose if all you get (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                never forget 2000, snakelass

                (or expect to get)

                is arrested.

                not beaten, or shot, etc.

                Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:49:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, I've never been shot. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TrueBlueMajority, snakelass

                  Last clubbing, LAPD outside the 2000 Democratic Convention, didn't land any but superficial and very ugly injury, paid enough to keep me going a few years.



                  Practicing Law without a License is my 3d favorite Crime.

                  by ben masel on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:24:58 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  wow--you demonstrated at the 2000 convention? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    snakelass

                    i tip my hat to you.  

                    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:37:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  If that's what you want to call holding a sign (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      TrueBlueMajority, snakelass

                      in the area by the entrance specifically designated by a Federal Judge for individual speech.

                      The cops told me to leave, I cited the designation. They whacked me, not very hard at first. I stood, still holding my sign.

                      Only 1 of the Delegates waiting in line raised any objection I could see or hear. I was eventually whacked a total of 13 times, before an officer with the Justice Department's civil Rights division intervened. "You can do whatever you want to him if you find him in an alley, but I've been assigned to protect his rights on this block."

                      The City attorney made an entirely acceptable settlement officer as soon as they saw the stills.

                      My internal Affairs complaint was dismissed, on Sept. 12, 2001 with a finding that they couldn't identify the 2 riotgear clad officers. I wonder if they asked the other 80 LAPD who were  watching, shown in in the photos.



                      Practicing Law without a License is my 3d favorite Crime.

                      by ben masel on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:49:23 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  A year ago, in Denver.... (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        TrueBlueMajority, snakelass

                        My State Assmbly rep ran into Denver's City Attorney at one of the "Welcome" events.

                        "Let me warn you about one of my constituents." He then recounted my record of successful litigation for 1st Amendment violations. "Do your taxpayers a favor and leave him alone."

                        One of the cops showed me the memo the last day. "...Don't arrest him without calling our office first."



                        Practicing Law without a License is my 3d favorite Crime.

                        by ben masel on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:58:55 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

        •  so when i criticize president obama on POLICY (0+ / 0-)

          ...and i'm accused of only being critical because he's black and i'm not...THAT'S NOT RACIST? THAT'S NOT BIGOTED?

          sorry, TrueBlueMajority, but you've really missed the mark on this one and you do the community of humanity (of all races) a disservice.

          "A time comes when silence is betrayal." ~ MLK, Jr...Where has CANDIDATE Obama gone?

          by liberaldemdave on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:40:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That makes no fucking sense (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pucknomad

        I'd like to scour Merriam Webster and find a single other "ism" that isn't defined instiutionally or collectively. "ism" is NOT a suffix used for personal or singular occurances.

        "I used to have goals. They were *evil* goals, but they were *goals*."--Dr. Doofenschmirtz

        by ChurchofBruce on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:02:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  powerless poor hicks still have the power (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GN1927, snakelass, dmh44, mamamedusa, princss6

      of their skin color.

      To Kill a Mockingbird is only barely fiction.

      and there are no rich powerful blacks, not Oprah not Obama, not one, powerful enough to overcome the institutionalized racism in the culture.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:55:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  President Obama is not powerful? (6+ / 0-)

        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

        http://www.projectposner.org/

        by Common Cents on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:56:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So Obama was not elected. Got it. (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        liberaldemdave, Prachar, NoVa Boy

        Because he was unable to overcome the institutionalized racism determined to keep him down.

        Got it.

        As Ron White would put it, "The next time you have a thought... let it go."

        Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

        by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:50:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Obama was elected in spite of it (5+ / 0-)

          that is the miracle many people thought would never happen in their lifetimes, including me

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:01:17 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Then your contention is false. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            liberaldemdave, Prachar, NoVa Boy

            And your diary holds no more water than it did.

            Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

            by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:03:12 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  what contention is false? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              GN1927, CC Music Factory

              that Obama was elected in spite of institutional racism?

              you are saying that is FALSE?

              that's a subject for a diary all its own!

              Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

              by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:32:39 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This one: (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                liberaldemdave, NoVa Boy

                and there are no rich powerful blacks, not Oprah not Obama, not one, powerful enough to overcome the institutionalized racism in the culture.

                "Obama, not ... powerful enough to overcome institutionalized racism," and yet elected to the highest office in the land, which puts the lie to that contention.

                Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

                by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:39:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Obama in street clothes and sunglasses (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  GN1927, never forget 2000, blindyone

                  would still have trouble catching a cab in NY

                  Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                  by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:44:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Joe Madison on C-SPAN just now (0+ / 0-)

                    just said Obama would have trouble catching a cab in NYC.

                    I hesitated about posting this TV Nation clip but now I'm taking that as an affirmation.

                    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:41:09 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  You're citing prejudice here, not racism (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    NoVa Boy

                    as you've defined it. It's an action by an individual not a powerful institution. Please try again.

                    •  it is so pervasive (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      GN1927, blindyone, princss6

                      among a whole segment of people (cab drivers) who are supposed to be providing public (non discriminatory) transportation.

                      it has been going on for so long without any serious attempt to make the discriminatory behavior stop.

                      that starts to look awfully systemic.

                      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:52:55 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't see cabbies as a power center (3+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        blindyone, pragprogress, NoVa Boy

                        in society. And as I understand it, black cab drivers are just as likely to not pull over for black men as Punjabis are.

                        Others below have spoken about casting racism as a range of power relations, and that any person of any race in a specific situation can have the upper hand vs the dichotomy you've mentioned. I'm more comfortable with that since I've seen first hand how minority racism can impact another individual, permanently.

                        That doesn't mean that I don't agree that I as a white man haven't benefited (in the sense of not having to adapt as often or as much as minorities do) to the racism of others.

                        •  But consider the fact that individual (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          nickrud

                          minorities (the NY cabdrivers, the black Cambridge cops, Clarence Thomas) can still make the choice to assist in, or provide cover for, unjust behavior without taking away from the diarist's discussion about how prejudice and institutional racism are different in our society.

                          Landscape, with its basis of aridity, is both our peculiar splendor and our peculiar limitation- Wallace Stegner

                          by blindyone on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:56:29 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  as long as we don't lose sight (0+ / 0-)

                            that it often won't matter to the individual affected whether or not the racism was institutional or not, nor that the impact on their lives is necessarily any less if it's not 'institutional'.

                            And I'd be cautious about the direction that

                            make the choice to assist in, or provide cover for, unjust behavior

                            will take us. The Punjabi or black cab driver isn't assisting  or providing cover for anyone, they're making individual choices. Clarence and the cops aren't choosing to be Uncle Toms; Clarence I have no clue about but I understand easily about the cops coming to the defense of another cop. In a perverse sense it's a color blind defense.

                          •  Sure, it is about choices. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tropical Depression, princss6

                            Black people, or other minorities, can make the calculation about what is best for their own situation, or their career, just like other individuals can.

                            In effect, that is what Obama did. He spoke out about an unjust arrest. He made the choice to have an opinion on a difficult subject, and he paid a price for it.

                            The way that the choices are offered within a system that makes one choice a lot easier, and more rewarding, than another is part of institutionalized racism. It is part of our status quo.

                            Landscape, with its basis of aridity, is both our peculiar splendor and our peculiar limitation- Wallace Stegner

                            by blindyone on Sun Aug 02, 2009 at 11:36:11 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No one on this site disputes that (0+ / 0-)

                            institutional racism exists, or it's pernicious effects. What is disputed is that only that those who are part of the dominant power structure can be called racists.

                        •  cabbies may not be a power center (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          princss6

                          but the people who DO have power have done nothing to stop the practice.

                          you can be assured that if some allegedly public service were being denied to them that something would be done about it.

                          but we cannot even conceive of a world where cab drivers of any race do not stop for white people, or refuse to go to white areas of town.

                          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                          by TrueBlueMajority on Sun Aug 02, 2009 at 07:20:43 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  (((TBM))) My thoughts exactly (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    TrueBlueMajority, blindyone, princss6

                    Barack Obama, Michelle Obama without the retinue of security and a pair of sunglasses and a scarf have the potential to suffer the same indignities that regular folk of color face on a regular basis.

                    Yes, there are blacks who will say "I hate all white people", but in my experience there is a difference between white people and people who are white. The black people who say they "hate" white people more likely than not have very very limited experience with whites, certainly not on a personal level.

                    Barack Obama maybe the "most powerful man in the world" but he certainly isn't going to be rounding up every white person in this country because some guy from North Carolina in a confirmed terrorist.

                    Let's get real around here. Like Chris Rock says, find me a poor white man willing to give up his color to be a wealthy black man. Crickets.
                    Thanks TBM. Much love.

                •  and (4+ / 0-)

                  the racism that Obama is still subjected to every single day in spite of being elected president is mind boggling

                  Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                  by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:46:01 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  correction: (0+ / 0-)

            Obama was elected in spite of large part because of it

            ...i attend an AA Church. our Church program NEVER contained "and pray for the president and his family" before THIS ELECTION. i don't FAULT them for this...THEY ARE PROUD. SO AM I.

            part of why i voted for him and a large part of why a vast number of AA's voted for the very first time was simply because he was BLACK. many of those first time voters couldn't tell you anything about the man, his policies, his political philosophy but they could ALL tell you "he's one of us".

            i've worked as a poll worker in 3 consecutive elections. i've never seen this type of turnout in the AA community AND I THINK IT'S FANTASTIC.

            "A time comes when silence is betrayal." ~ MLK, Jr...Where has CANDIDATE Obama gone?

            by liberaldemdave on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:52:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  you are wrong. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TrueBlueMajority, princss6

          TBM never said anything remotely akin to Obama not being able to be elected POTUS.

          what TBM said was that Obama can't make institutionalized racism disappear.  the ability to make institutionalized racism disappear isn't necessary for a POC to be elected POTUS.  your argument is faulty and we'd all be better off if you toned down the glibness. especially considering how tacky aggressive illogic can make one look.

          c'mon let's sweat...baby

          by CC Music Factory on Sun Aug 02, 2009 at 03:43:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  sorry but... (11+ / 0-)

    Everyone has racism to a degree.  Having grown up on various reservations, I have seen it and know it.  Black people are humans.  That they suffered is on record.  However, that does not eliminate racism from their being.  No human being is that perfect.

  •  Ugh. (6+ / 0-)

    "In every revolution, there's one man with a vision." -James T. Kirk

    by The Navigator on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:40:14 PM PDT

  •  Dogs are reptiles. (18+ / 0-)
    I define "reptile" as a four-legged warm-blooded animal with hair that nurses its young.

    I mean, if we get to pick our own definitions ('racism blahblahblah power blahblahblah pomo cliches') and junk, then everything's game.

    We are building a team that is continuously being built. - Sarah Palin

    by burrow owl on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:42:09 PM PDT

  •  Ridiculous (17+ / 0-)

    Look at the dictionary:

    1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

    from MW Online

    By your definition, only people with power can be racist.  Which lets out pretty much all poor people, whatever their race, and pretty much all children. And a lot of women.  

  •  Wrong. (19+ / 0-)

    It's all of it.

    Your definition, but also the mere intolerance of a race by any one person.

    I can appreciate wanting to HIGHLIGHT the etimology of the word that has to do with institutional oppression.

    But it is not the only meaning of the word, and its disingenuous to state that a black person cannot by definition be a racist.

    That's horseshit.

    They only call it "Class War" when we fight back. (via Buhdydharma)

    by Detroit Mark on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:45:36 PM PDT

    •  OK, i will concede (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Detroit Mark

      it is not the ONLY meaning of the word.

      but it is a meaning that lets us understand the world we live in.

      there are very few people bold enough in 2009 to walk around openly asserting that white people are the superior race.

      but racism still exists because of structural and institutional problems that will no go away in just two generations.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:06:52 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  So if I'm walking down the street (21+ / 0-)

    And a Hispanic or AA person thinks I'm a piece of shit because I'm white, they are not racist?

    Sorry... No.

    The thing about equality is that we're all equals, and as far as I'm concerned, excusing racism on behalf of other races is pretty racist in and of itself. You assume that minorities don't, can't or won't be able to rise above?

    Pfft.

    I know theft is illegal, but look at all the cool stuff I got!

    by BoiseBlue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:46:23 PM PDT

  •  That's actually a racist definition (21+ / 0-)

    Racism is, inherently, judging people by their race. You do not need power to do this. Admittedly, it can be more damaging if someone in power does it but that doesn't make racism the exclusive perview of the powerful.

    By essentially declaring that only white people can be racist you are judging people by the color of their skin.

    I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

    Is not about power, its about how people judge one another.

    •  No (5+ / 0-)

      prejudice is judging by race; "judge" is even part of the etymology of "prejudice".

      "I used to have goals. They were *evil* goals, but they were *goals*."--Dr. Doofenschmirtz

      by ChurchofBruce on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:59:16 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  prejudice (10+ / 0-)

        is based on pre judging, i.e. you make a judgement about someone prior to knowing them.

        racism is pre-judging based on race, sexism is pre-judging based on sex.  As I said above, the only reason for your distinction is to support the racist supposition that only people with certain skin color are racist.

        There's also a bit of simple racism in assuming that people of color cannot have power -- a bit absurd with Barack Obama as president.

        •  You still are not getting it (5+ / 0-)

          NO 'ism" is about "one person". Of course, one person of color can get power. When white people get arrested for "driving while white" and get denied jobs because they're white and get accused of "working the system" when they get into college because they're white and have to listen to my father rant about "How did Obama get through Columbia and Harvard without a job, where did the money come from?" something he'd never say about a white person...maybe then white people will figure the fuck out what "racism" really means.

          And, shit, I'm white.

          "I used to have goals. They were *evil* goals, but they were *goals*."--Dr. Doofenschmirtz

          by ChurchofBruce on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:13:24 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I've been stopped for walking while white (6+ / 0-)

            in a black neighborhood, whilst campaigning, solo, for Sheriff.

            The 2nd anmd 3d cops to arrive knew me, called the first who'd detained me an idiot.



            Practicing Law without a License is my 3d favorite Crime.

            by ben masel on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:18:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You're just making this up (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            khereva, Chicagoa, Prachar, nickrud, NoVa Boy

            From Dictionary.com, Random House Dictionary:

            -ism

            a suffix appearing in loanwords from Greek, where it was used to form action nouns from verbs (baptism); on this model, used as a productive suffix in the formation of nouns denoting action or practice, state or condition, principles, doctrines, a usage or characteristic, devotion or adherence, etc. (criticism; barbarism; Darwinism; despotism; plagiarism; realism; witticism; intellectualism).

            Any discussion of what a word means should start with the dictionary, don't you think?

            "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

            by denise b on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:21:11 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  There you go thinking again. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Samulayo, Prachar, NoVa Boy

              That will not be tolerated, you know.

              Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

              by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:23:51 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  while (0+ / 0-)

              ism was used as a suffix in greek to form action words from verbs, that is not how it is (primarily) used as a suffix in English. (While it's a suffix either way, it came to us (eventually) from Greek with the suffix attached. In other words, the "borrowing" was baptize and baptism simultaneously.)

              Darwinism is a suffix applied to an English word after the fact, it means "followers or adherence of Darwin". Despotism is a suffix, it means "an adherence to a particular philosophy associated with despots". Plagiarism, criticism, and the like are etymologically different. Racism, Darwinism, realism...uses like that are derived from appending the ism suffix direction on a noun. The greek derived words, such as baptism and criticism, are what you are describing, as formed from action verbs. Baptism came to us from Greek. Darwinism? Not so much.

              Part of the problem is that "ism" in the Darwinism/racism/socialism sense came to us actually from French, which is the only way it exists in French. Baptism in French is bapteme. Criticism is critique. Plagiarism is plagiat. Witticism is bon mot. :) But racism is still racisme, and socialism is still socialisme.

              "I used to have goals. They were *evil* goals, but they were *goals*."--Dr. Doofenschmirtz

              by ChurchofBruce on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:44:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  ding!ding!ding! (0+ / 0-)

          ...we have a winner.

          point. set. match.

          "A time comes when silence is betrayal." ~ MLK, Jr...Where has CANDIDATE Obama gone?

          by liberaldemdave on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:02:02 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  No. Prejudice is judging before getting facts. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Prachar, NoVa Boy

        That would be the "pre" prefix.

        Racism is discriminating unfairly on the basis of race.

        Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

        by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:56:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  as opposed to discriminating fairly? (0+ / 0-)

          believe me, I do understand what you are trying to say, and I respect you, and yours is the view I held for many decades.

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:11:55 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  There are fair bases for discriminating. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Prachar, NoVa Boy, Ezekial 23 20

            Discrimination merely means judging between or among a number of things.

            If I hold tryouts for a men's basketball team and I send home all players under five feet tall, I am discriminating on the basis of height, but I have a reasonable basis for doing so.

            If I send home all white, or all asian, or all black players, I am discriminating unfairly, as the criterion is unrelated to my goal of collecting the best players to form the best team.

            And if I were studying health statistics among African American families in Texas, I would have to sort the existing data on the basis of race-- that is, I would discriminate, and quite fairly, on the basis of race, because that discrimination would be essential to the study, and vital to the valildity of the work.

            Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

            by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:20:19 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  of course there are fair bases for discriminating (0+ / 0-)

              discrimination is not an inherently evil thing.

              i was actually trying to make a joke (!) about "discriminating unfairly on the basis of race" as if you could disciminate fairly on the basis of race.

              couldn't fit that into my subject line.

              Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

              by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:39:13 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  Your last line is good. (5+ / 0-)

    It is demeaning to equate real racism with mere prejudice.

    Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

    by Ezekial 23 20 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:49:13 PM PDT

  •  Oh man. I hate this kind of shit. (23+ / 0-)

    Your diary takes me straight back to countless classes at UC Santa Cruz, wherein all the white people in the room were compelled to confess their inner racism because, after all, deep down, we're all at least kinda racist.  And only white people are capable of racism because only white people benefit from any sort of power structure.

    Give me a fucking break.

    They tortured people to get false confessions to fraudulently justify our invading Iraq.

    by Kaili Joy Gray on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 05:49:20 PM PDT

  •  Diarist you are confusing racism with the ability (12+ / 0-)

    to inflict ones racist views on others.  It's nonsense.

  •  I take your point about institutional vs. persona (6+ / 0-)

    l racism. But ANYONE can be racist.

    •  Exactly! Distinguish "institutional racism" from (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Prachar, Ezekial 23 20

      "individual racism," if you like, but don't tell me a minority member is not racist if they hate all white or Asian or Latino people.  And a woman can be as sexist as a man, for that regard.  

      Yes, there is often a big difference in the overall impact of the collective prejudicial "-isms," but it's stupid to say it only runs in one direction and or that minority group members (who in 20 years will be in the collective majority... at which point they CAN become racist, then, maybe?...) get a free pass.

      Seriously.

      "I once asked a literary agent what writing paid the best, and he said, 'Ransom notes.' " - Gene Hackman as Harry Zimm in Get Shorty

      by Vtdblue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:38:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  TrueBlue (4+ / 0-)

    You're never going to make many people here see that racism is about access to power and the ability to wield it.  I didn't get it until minoring in sociology many many moons ago.

    Opened my eyes.

  •  This topic has much potential... in better hands (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    ben masel, khereva, Prachar, Ezekial 23 20

    Past diaries I've read on DailyKos have explored, in depth and with intelligence and sensitivity, the exact concept that TrueBlueMajority writes of here:

    The "problem of institutionalization, where one group has the power to take its prejudices and exercise them with impunity under de facto color of law (regardless what the laws on the books actually are)."

    But this diary?  It claims that the diarist can apply his/her own definitions for words, based on how he/she feels about the word.  And from there, the diarist can insist that he/she is right and that even the English dictionary is wrong.

    Some diaries are worth a thorough exploration of racial issues in American society.  Some have been written and some have yet to be written.  This ain't one of them... it's unhelpful button-pushing at best.

    •  you're welcome to try (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Torta, dmh44, blindyone

      anyone is welcome to try.

      Take me to task and show me how I'm wrong.

      I would love to see Hunter or MB give it a whirl.

      But I did not come up with that definition based on how I feel.  That is the definition I was taught and the definition i believe to be true based on everything I know about American culture.

      In fact, I did not think I was button pushing and thought I was being very temperate compared to some of the things I have heard and read since July 16 accusing HLG of being racist.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:19:41 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What is that saying... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TrueBlueMajority

        those who win the war write history.  The citation of MW is a classic example of institutional power.  White privilege/racism will not dismantle itself.  Therefor, the weapons wielded to excuse racism will not come from the all official like documents of a racist/white supremacist society.  If you can't name it, it can't be defeated.  The logical extension is that since some blacks do not like whites, then Jim Crow and Slavery are not only equivalent but whites run the risk of being abused by minorities if and when, we are the majority.  That is all this obfuscation serves to do to keep alive the Birth of a Nation meme instead of dealing with white supremacy/racism.

        I can be prejudicial all day long but until I can exercise power in terms of life, liberty and the pursuit of justice upon sub-groups of America, I am not racist nor to I embody racism.

        I find it hilarious to see people contradict themselves in their posts falling all over their designation of blacks are racist (I guess just like them) and not prejudiced when it does occur.  lol

  •  sorry but I am going to strongly disagree (8+ / 0-)

    racism is not merely about power in the sense in which most people think about it.  A black can be a racist.  So can an Hispanic, an Asian, a Native American.

    Racism is to consider one's particular racial designation as superior to some other, even if only to those who are partially your identified group and partially some other.

    Spike Lee once said that he couldn't be a racist because he was black.  He was wrong, and I am sorry to say so are you.

    On a large scale a black racist may not have the same power to impose views that some mayors and other elected officials can.  But s/he can in the sphere in which s/he operates act in a racially discriminatory manner.

    On a smaller scale, those black students who harrass and belittle their fellow blacks for being serious about their schoolwork by accusing them of acting white are being at least in a small scale racist.

    The first time I taught social issues, to a class in which all except one of the students considered themselves African-American, I began by saying "I am a racist and so are all of you.  That is, we are shaped at least in part by our racial identity and our racial experience.  That does not mean we have to act as racists, but we at least need to recognize the impact that race has upon us."  One student was sufficiently offended to transfer out of the class.  This was a 1st semester class, and about 1/3 of the students asked me to write college recommendations for them because of the growth we shared in that class.

    To some degree, the vast majority of us start as racists.  We do not have to remain there.  But the color of our skin, the relations and friend we have, do NOT inoculate us from being possibly classifiable as racist.

    Peace.

    do we still have a Republic and a Constitution if our elected officials will not stand up for them on our behalf?

    by teacherken on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:16:08 PM PDT

    •  thanks for your calm disagreement (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      teacherken, Timbuk the Second

      i think the world of you

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:20:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I know is S Florida (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      khereva, edbb, Prachar, Ezekial 23 20

      when I lived there, a lot of black Americans I knew were terribly racist against Haitians.  They all kill chickens in their living room, don't know how to use a toilet, they never wash etc, etc.  I have even seen them work to keep a Haitian family from moving into our mixed-race street.

      AAs may not have an awful lot of power in this country, but they have a lot more than the recently arrived Haitians, many of which cannot speak the language.

      And some use this power to discriminate.  When I would ask about this, the general answer was "Well, unlike us, they deserve to be discriminated against because, after all, they are pigs".

      Sigh....

      •  Not 2 pick nits, but isn't that more nationalist? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TrueBlueMajority

        The AAs were discriminating not against the skin color but the nationality of the Haitians.  I see what you're saying, but unless the Haitians were a unique ethnic group (most trace their lineage to Africa, I believe, no?), then the discrimination is more based on prejudices arising from their national cultural practices.

        That said, of course, your basic point that African Americans were discriminating against another minority group certainly is a good observation in the context of this diary.  

        "I once asked a literary agent what writing paid the best, and he said, 'Ransom notes.' " - Gene Hackman as Harry Zimm in Get Shorty

        by Vtdblue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:46:17 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Complication (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, blindyone

    It makes sense to me to distinguish between systemic or institutional bias and personal bias, but I suspect it's got to be more complicated.  What about those ways in which nonwhites can be privileged and whites not, for example the axes of class, sexual orientation and gender.  

    The state can be biased against you on some axes and biased toward you on others.  

    So black people might not be able to be racist by definition--to take your point.  Would you say, then, that they can still be classist, misogynist or homophobic?  Since in those ways, they might well (assuming they are rich, male, heterosexual) be part of the dominant and repressive paradigm?

    http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Benjamin%20Gross berg&page=1

    by claytonben on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:19:41 PM PDT

    •  yes--there are many axes of privilege (0+ / 0-)

      in fact, one valuable memory from one of those interminable diversity training sessions was a list of privilege/non privilege dichotomies where you have to check off which side you fall on.

      that was almost as eye opening as Peggy McIntosh--to realize that there are a whole bunch of ways in which I can be privileged and a whole bunch of ways I get the short stick.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:24:03 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  This debate is so 1980s. n/t (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    denise b, sandbox

    Al que no le guste el caldo, le dan dos tazas.

    by Rich in PA on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:27:43 PM PDT

  •  I've had this conversation with many (4+ / 0-)

    of my black, latino and white friends. We usually agree that everyone can be "racist" but very few people have benefited from its practice like white people.

    Furthermore, while the label of "racist" is equally harmful to individuals when it is used --whether that person be white black or purple with yellow polkadots --it is slightly more detrimental to minorities as a whole when used on minorities.

    Don't believe me? When was the last time an ex-black panther was voted into office and reelected time and time again?

    How many ex-Klan members are in office? How many that we don't know about?

    How many who have what is at best described as questionable views on minorities? Jeff Sessions is on the judiciary comittee for Christ's sake. Trent Lot, George Alan, Robert Byrd, Strom Thurmond...

    How many "angry black men" in the Senate these days?

    "Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado." -Emiliano Zapata

    by eitheror on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:38:01 PM PDT

  •  I take great exception to this (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    khereva, Prachar, Neglected Duty

    However, all white people consciously and unconsciously benefit in small and large ways from the racism in the general culture.  And one of those benefits is not experiencing the "driving while black", "shopping while black", "walking while black", "angry on your front porch while black" kind of police attention on a regular basis in your life and the lives of our friends and family.

    This is nonsense. I do not benefit from these things in any way. It makes about as much sense as saying I benefit from other people being murdered because I have not been murdered.

    "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

    by denise b on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:38:31 PM PDT

    •  You don't think you benefit from this? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      princss6

      Without the handy dandy crutch of "racial profiling" the neanderthals in your local police department would just start stopping everybody.

      "I used to have goals. They were *evil* goals, but they were *goals*."--Dr. Doofenschmirtz

      by ChurchofBruce on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:44:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  you do not have to alter your behavior (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SlackwareGrrl

      in an attempt to reduce having those things happen to you.

      it reminds of me of a conversation between a male and female friend about why she did not walk a certain way home from the bus stop, and she said matter of factly that she chose to go the longer way in order to walk down the well lit street.

      a lightbulb went off over the head of the guy, who never in his life had ever given a second thought about choosing what street to walk down based on the number of streetlights, and here was this woman telling him that she had done that very day for years.

      this same guy lived in a first floor apartment with no bars on the windows, and the same woman said she could never live in a first floor apartment, even though the 1st floor apartments were cheaper.

      a second lightbulb went off over the head of the guy, who never in his life had ever given a second thought about choosing an apartment based on what floor it was on, and here was this woman telling him that she had chosen to pay more for every apartment she ever lived in to be on a high floor.

      so I think people who have the freedom to live their lives without worrying about whether they will be followed by security guards in stores or followed by police for walking in their own neighborhoods do benefit. it may be an invisible benefit that does not matter much to you, but I know a bunch of folks who have to deal with it on a regular basis who would love to not have to worry about it, and would think it a tremendous benefit if they never had to worry about it for their entire lives.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:48:57 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I can only reiterate (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ezekial 23 20

        the fact that other people are treated unfairly does not benefit me. It would only benefit me if a certain amount of mistreatment is required, and they are getting my share. But of course that's absurd.

        "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

        by denise b on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:43:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  you are right that (0+ / 0-)

          the fact that other people are treated unfairly does not benefit you.

          but the fact that you are NOT treated unfairly obviously is a benefit to you.

          it's not what happens to them, it's about what doesn't happen to you.  and as a result you don't have to arrange your life around the fearful possibility of those particular things happening to you.

          you are free to worry about/plan for other things that are more likely to happen to you, because there is a whole class of mistreatment you never have to give a second thought to.

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:13:28 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Racism (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    TrueBlueMajority, blindyone, princss6

    Prejudice + Power = Racism

    Anyone who studies racial issues knows this already. It's a given.

    But you're not going to have any luck promoting it on Dailykos, to be honest.

    Academics and POC-only spaces are the only ones who utilize/analyze that definition. Mainstream white Americans? Not in a million years.

    •  yeah. that makes me sad. thanks, SlackwareGrrl. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blindyone, princss6, SlackwareGrrl

      there have been so many things that have happened in the last few months to disillusion me about how open minded I thought the dK community was on the subject of race.

      sigh.  all these folks claiming that I made up this definition all by myself has been the real shock.

      I never expected to get this kind of heat for this.  From the usual suspects, sure, but not from such a broad swath of commenters.

      Maybe the fates are just trying to make me feel better about having to miss Netroots Nation again this year!  I certainly don;t want to go now and get jumped on for being racist!

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:54:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  the dk community (4+ / 0-)

        In my personal opinion, large groups of white people, no matter their politics, are rarely collectively progressive on racial issues.

        I usually avoid the subject here on dailykos, because it's essentially a fruitless exercise that never ends well.

        •  A bit of a persecution complex, perhaps? (6+ / 0-)

          You're being a bigot yourself to assume that you're the only "enlightened" one here, and that all the other white liberals are clueless members of the power elite.  

          There is, no doubt, some of that going on here.  But you are being patronizing and sanctimonious in assuming that none of the critics here know a hell of a lot about these issues, too.

          "I once asked a literary agent what writing paid the best, and he said, 'Ransom notes.' " - Gene Hackman as Harry Zimm in Get Shorty

          by Vtdblue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:28:47 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  i was naive (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pucknomad, SlackwareGrrl, Vtdblue

            i thought all this was a given.

            i honestly did not expect this to get this kind of attention.

            the original title of the diary was simply "the difference between prejudice and racism"

            maybe I should have left it like that.

            Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

            by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:42:20 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I feel your pain (seriously) (3+ / 0-)

              You're getting a bum rap from some here, who are admittedly unaware of the distinction or the reasoning behind it.  I've been there, too, on similar issues in the past.

              But while I would agree that many on DKos are unfamiliar with the idea of institutional racism, and the idea in academic circles that institutional power is the only important variable in establishing racism, vs. prejudice, you in turn were unaware, it seems from your comment, that there was not universal acceptance of this distinction, even among people who "get it" about the structural/institutional issues that are clearly harder to weed out.

              FWIW, many people who are opposed to affirmative action, as you know, deny the importance (or even existence) of institutional racism/sexism.  But I think in fairness to most, if not all, on this site, you shouldn't assume that all objection to your diary is just a lack of enlightenment about the ideas.  Sure, there are some "limosine liberals" and even maybe some Blue Dog types who don't have the first clue about what you're saying, but that's not everyone weighing in here.

              "I once asked a literary agent what writing paid the best, and he said, 'Ransom notes.' " - Gene Hackman as Harry Zimm in Get Shorty

              by Vtdblue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:04:01 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  enlightened was your word (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                pucknomad, SlackwareGrrl, Vtdblue

                i just thought all these ideas were common knowledge and commonly accepted in progressive circles.  This stuff was old when I first heard about it more than ten years ago.  I had no idea it was still this controversial, in spite of some of teh crazy I've seen in the Gates diaries.

                I've been here a long time without ever experiencing anything like tonight, so maybe I was overdue.

                Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

                by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:16:59 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The ideas proposed here in the diary (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  TrueBlueMajority, Vtdblue

                  have indeed been presented here before, more than once.

                  But the issue is that academics and lay people don't use the same words to mean the same things.

                  If you want to discuss racism in a general non-academic audience, then you have to use the language as the audience understands it, not as the academic field uses it.

                  To the vast majority of folks around here, 'racism' means something along the lines of 'holding a belief that your own 'race' is superior to 'other races' (and typical, acting in accordance with such beliefs).

                  And anyone, of any race, could indeed hold such a belief, and act on it.  Certain combinations are more or less likely to occur, though.  There are probably a hell of a lot more white people who hold such beliefs as a result of the history of the country and the pervasiveness in the 'culture'.

                  But it's not impossible for a black to be 'racist' in that sense against asians, or even against whites.  The cultural history doesn't automatically make it more likely, though.

                  So the white guy who automatically hires other white guys because he thinks 'black folks are lazy' is a racist by both the academic standard and the lay person standard.  But the unemployed skinhead on the corner is just as racist by lay people standards, even though he has no more 'power' over any given black person than the ability to pull a pistol out and shoot them, and get arrested.

                  Ditto the black guy who thinks white people are all worthless or racists. By the lay person standard, he's no different than the skinhead.  He has no more power, or no less, and can equally pull out a pistol and shoot someone and get arrested.

                  You might want to call it something else, simply because the black person doesn't 'automatically benefit' from the laundry list of supposed benefits in your link, but to the layperson, there's no real difference.

                  Both men hated people of a different race, both men acted on their twisted beliefs.

                  Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

                  by Ezekial 23 20 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:40:16 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Eh. (0+ / 0-)

                    But the issue is that academics and lay people don't use the same words to mean the same things.

                    True. Academics of many races use the definition.(There are white professors at Harvard who do). However, there's plenty of POC lay people who use this definition. Even if white lay people do not.

                    •  We all want to use definitions that (0+ / 0-)

                      agree with our biases.

                      So most white people tend to use a definition that doesn't single them out as the source of all evil, while people who want to see whites as the source of all evil gravitate towards a definition that says 'whites are racist, nobody else can be.'

                      Same thing happens in gender studies.  Somebody there proposes a theory that only men can be sexist, and those who want to believe it will, while the rest won't.

                      The desire to throw blame entirely on a group you're not a part of and deny that it can occur even in part in your own group is a strong one indeed.

                      Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

                      by Ezekial 23 20 on Sun Aug 02, 2009 at 07:25:53 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  Well, don't forget, too, that DKos is a vast (3+ / 0-)

                  community, and that not everyone who's commenting here is fully, proportionally representative of that broader community.  I.e., many of those who might be more in agreement with you might not be weighing in (self-selection, since your message is "self-evident" to them), while those who disagree vehemently have more of a stake in engaging.  I've gotten killed in comments I would make about similar issues that ARE commonly accepted among most progressives, but the commenters with the most "enthusiasm" shall we say turned out to be naysayers -- and some pretty rude and ad hominem in their responses.

                  But yes, the ideas are long-standing in ethnic studies and sociology, but a few of them, this one about the racism-prejudice distinction, in particular, have always been controversial and not fully embraced, even among progressive academics.  

                  Thanks for the diary, and a spirited debate.  Love your sig line, by the way! :o)

                  "I once asked a literary agent what writing paid the best, and he said, 'Ransom notes.' " - Gene Hackman as Harry Zimm in Get Shorty

                  by Vtdblue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:45:10 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Pretty much (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TrueBlueMajority, SlackwareGrrl

          Our white privilege is so embedded that we cannot bring ourselves collectively to acknowledge its existence. Ultimately, the reason we don't get it is because we don't want to get it. Sad.

      •  Yeah. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TrueBlueMajority

        sigh.  all these folks claiming that I made up this definition all by myself has been the real shock.

        You must travel in sheltered or particularly enlightened circles, because white people, collectively have always rejected the definition.

        Also, while they acknowledge that racism has negative connotations for black people, they don't recognize the inverse: that white people benefit from racism.

        I'm willing to wager that most are not going to listen there, especially to POC. I mean, remember the backlash to Peggy McIntosh's work? And she's white.

    •  Not all academics view this as legit (3+ / 0-)

      The racism = prejudice + power meme presupposes an overwrought, falsely dichotomous definition of "power."  

      Not all power is society-wide and institutional, and it is a far more complex web that ranges from the individual to the bigger institutions -- i.e., "The Man," with lots of variation in between.  As noted in the comments here, it's ridiculous to say a struggling Asian shopkeeper cannot be racist re: his African American customers, just as it is to suppose that a rich black person who hates Latinos and thinks they're lazy is not a racist.  

      The reality is far more complex than the simplistic false dichotomy propounded by SOME (and not all) in racial studies, sociology, political science, etc.

      "I once asked a literary agent what writing paid the best, and he said, 'Ransom notes.' " - Gene Hackman as Harry Zimm in Get Shorty

      by Vtdblue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:55:30 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  right (3+ / 0-)

        Not all academics view this as legit .

        Well, insofar as a lot of academics are privileged and white that is probably so. But just as there are academics who deny sexism exists in their institutions, there are those who deny racism exists that way.

        •  racist ad hom argument noted. (6+ / 0-)

          If academics disagree, that's because they're white, and therefore wrong?

          Truly racist, and truly disgusting.

          Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

          by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:06:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  You're clearly missing the point -- deliberately? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Neglected Duty, Ezekial 23 20

          Of course racism and sexism -- especially institutional racism -- exists in academia and society as a whole.  You're being disingenuous and/or demagogic (to give you the benefit of the doubt, and to not assume you're being obtuse) if you think most of the critics in this thread are unaware of the corrosive influence of racism or other "-isms" that permeate institutions and perpetuate oppression systematically.

          The obvious point from most (with some clueless exceptions, I'll grant you) of the commenters I've seen here is that just because institutional racism is REALLY important, doesn't diminish the fact that an individual who happens to be in a minority cannot be racist or sexist and exert racist or sexist action that has a negative impact on their environment or society.  

          Again, the "prejudice vs. racism" dichotomy is misleadingly simplistic.  TO say otherwise is not to deny in any way institutional racism, but to insist that individuals of all types can be racist.

          "I once asked a literary agent what writing paid the best, and he said, 'Ransom notes.' " - Gene Hackman as Harry Zimm in Get Shorty

          by Vtdblue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:14:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Heh... n/t (0+ / 0-)

          Landscape, with its basis of aridity, is both our peculiar splendor and our peculiar limitation- Wallace Stegner

          by blindyone on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:09:37 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  That said, BTW, SlackwareGrrl and TBM, (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        khereva, Ezekial 23 20

        that does not mean that I or many others on this thread are denying the critical role of institutional racism or sexism in keeping people down.  It just means that we do not believe in the false, one-way distinction that assumes someone's skin color or gender makes them either incapable of racist or sexist views and actions, or makes their prejudices less heinous because of that.  Distinguish "institutional racism" from "individual racism," but don't muddy the waters of discrimination in such a multi-ethnic country as this by claiming blacks can't be racist, or women sexist, or gay men homophobic.

        "I once asked a literary agent what writing paid the best, and he said, 'Ransom notes.' " - Gene Hackman as Harry Zimm in Get Shorty

        by Vtdblue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:03:24 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  no one, least of all me. would ever say (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          SlackwareGrrl, Vtdblue

          it makes their prejudices less heinous!

          but it does make a difference that they have less power to back it up and less power to hurt people and the culture as a whole with their prejudices.

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:21:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  O.k., now were converging on some agreement (3+ / 0-)

            There's a big difference in saying that minorities (women, AAs, Latinos, etc.) have LESS power to hurt people and implying, as the "____ cannot be (racist, sexist, Martianist, etc.)" meme does, that it's either/or.

            That's what most on this thread, and many over the years, have objected to: The excessive simplicity of the dichotomy.  Far better, might you not agree?, to suggest a (even 3-dimensional) continuum of racism -- ranging from very powerful collective or institutional "-ism" to less powerful, but still of a kind, "-ism" on the part of those traditionally less powerful as a group.

            Institutional racism and sexism is a very important concept, and far more prevalent than many whites/male/rich people are aware of, clearly.  But to suggest that there is no power, ergo no "-ism," possible simply because of one's membership in a traditionally oppressed minority, obscures more than it clarifies -- not just at a societal level of everyday muddied debate about "racism" or "sexism," but at an academic level as well, IMO.

            FWIW, I respect what you and others are trying to say about the importance of institutional vs. individual racism, and thus about the hidden pernicious influences of structural prejudice and power, but I resent that it's automatically assumed (not by you, maybe) that objections to this line of reasoning are all based on cluelessness or the blindness of privilege.  Nobody's talking about "banning" or "shunning" anyone: Some of us are just taking you argument on and vigorously disagreeing with the conclusion, if not the underlying premise.

            "I once asked a literary agent what writing paid the best, and he said, 'Ransom notes.' " - Gene Hackman as Harry Zimm in Get Shorty

            by Vtdblue on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:41:52 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  is this just a matter of semantics (0+ / 0-)

        what you are calling racist in the examples you cite I am calling bigotry, prejudice, bias, etc.

        I am not denying that blacks and other minorities have negative feelings towards groups and act on them.

        Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

        by TrueBlueMajority on Sun Aug 02, 2009 at 07:35:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Because it's bullshit. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Neglected Duty

      Academics use it because it enables then to do some safe handwringing if they're white, and to do some pelasurable fingerpointing if they're not.

      I will not speculate on the motives of "POC-only spaces" for settling on a definition of racism for which they are by definition innocent.

      Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

      by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:05:13 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Your premise is not only flawed, but racist. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    bevenro, sandbox, Neglected Duty

    Defining racism so that only one ethnic group can be guilty of it is in itself an act of racism-- you know, the real one: unjustly discriminating on the basis of race.

    Screw "Hope" and "Change." Give me Determination and Improvement.

    by khereva on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 06:45:42 PM PDT

  •  Does it bother anyone but me (5+ / 0-)

    that we use the same word racism to denote everything from enslaving people or putting them in gas ovens, to locking our car doors because the sight of someone scares us, to having fleeting emotions that we never express or act upon, to simply existing in a world in which some people are oppressed?

    I find it very difficult to know what this word means any more. And the more carelessly it gets thrown around, the less I care. Words exist to communicate, and when they have no generally agreed-upon meaning then they are less than useless. There's something very strange about a word in search of a definition.

    "There -- it's -- you know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --GWB

    by denise b on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:06:52 PM PDT

    •  but i am deliberately NOT using the word that way (0+ / 0-)

      I am reserving the word racism for the big institutional/structural/cultural things and calling the other things prejudice and bias.

      and getting way more flak for it than I ever imagined.  it's the first time I ever wanted to delete a diary.

      but I guess the conversation is worth keeping and re-reading whenever I get over-idealistic about this place (which is often!).

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:24:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Your opinion of DKos is lowered... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TrueBlueMajority, Ezekial 23 20

        ... because people disagreed with your definition?

        I don't see anyone disputing the negative effects of institutional racism. People are just disagreeing with your academic definition of the word and explaining that in most Americans' vernacular - regardless of their race - racism is used interchangeably with racial prejudice.

        It's a disagreement over words. I don't see why it shatters your DKos idealism. I'm actually rather proud of the way this community has conducted itself.

        Hydrogen is a light, odorless gas, which, given enough time, turns into people.

        by Chicagoa on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:48:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  that's a good point (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Chicagoa, blindyone

          it's partly a question of vernacular

          in most Americans' vernacular - regardless of their race - racism is used interchangeably with racial prejudice.

          versus an academic definition that is not as widely known as I imagined.

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:22:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It happens a lot. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueMajority, Ezekial 23 20

            A huge portion of disagreement over intellectual issues stems from competing vocabularies. People who agree completely on a particular concept can have a flame war over which words to use when describing it.

            In the future, when discussing this issue, try adding a big blockquoted definitions section. Describe how you're going to be using the words, and that you recognize others' right to use them differently in a colloquial context.

            You, as the diarist, ultimately get to decide what you're saying. It wont weed out all the kvetching but it might help.

            Hydrogen is a light, odorless gas, which, given enough time, turns into people.

            by Chicagoa on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:33:02 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  You'd seriously delete a diary because it (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        TrueBlueMajority

        isn't popular with the group of people who happen to be signed on right now and who were interested enough to take the time to read it?

        You made a good point about the differences between prejudice and racism. Many people agree with your descriptions of how those terms operate in the real world... which for most of us is the US with its historical race problem.

        A significant number of DKos readers disagree with your definitions and regularly write comments making their arguments.

        These kinds of diaries never go to the rec list so it's not a way to feel popular here...

        Landscape, with its basis of aridity, is both our peculiar splendor and our peculiar limitation- Wallace Stegner

        by blindyone on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:16:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  no, I was considering deleting because (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blindyone

          I don't want to risk the possibility of being accused of writing a "racist" diary and having people link to this for the rest of the Gates thing.

          not because of the people who are here tonight but because of future fallout.

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:20:06 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't know if you are white or whatever. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TrueBlueMajority

            I don't care. I would like to see more of my fellow white folks get over their bizarre fear of being called "racist".

            This is why we can't have honest conversations about race. Well some of us do... but there has to be an atmosphere of trust, and whites have to admit that being called "racist" is small potatoes compared to what POC have to deal with in their daily lives.

            If someone calls you a racist and you aren't, just go on and live your life and push back on racism wherever you encounter it. So, some black person is angry with you and calls you a racist. There are worse things in life.

            Landscape, with its basis of aridity, is both our peculiar splendor and our peculiar limitation- Wallace Stegner

            by blindyone on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:32:53 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  and I never worry about the rec list (0+ / 0-)

          i hardly ever write diaries

          Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:20:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  So only people of certain skin colors can be (4+ / 0-)

    racist?

    Is there some irony here, or what?

    Member, The Angry Left

    by nosleep4u on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:17:10 PM PDT

  •  sorry, i agree with the subject matter... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    khereva

    ...but your definition of "racism" isn't accurate.

    miriam webster:

       rac·ism Listen to the pronunciation of racism
    Pronunciation:
       \ˈrā-ˌsi-zəm also -ˌshi-\
    Function:
       noun
    Date:
       1933

    1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination

    therefore, "racism" (per se) has nothing to do with an advantaged group taking advantage of another group.

    racism is COLOR BLIND.

    just as it is possible to "drive while black", etc., it is also just as possible to "walk on the sidewalk while white" in "black" neighborhoods, etc.

    believe me, that "racism" is powerful and palpable, as well.

    "A time comes when silence is betrayal." ~ MLK, Jr...Where has CANDIDATE Obama gone?

    by liberaldemdave on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 07:37:31 PM PDT

  •  Racism = reproducing domination (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Ezekial 23 20

    If I can put in my two cents here, I would say that when I studied issues of race and racism, I learned that racism (as defined by Howard Winant and Michael Omi) means the reproduction of structures of domination on the basis of race.  That makes possible for anyone, white or black, to be a racist.  Just like it is possible for a woman to be machist, if she reproduces or seeks to reproduce structures for the domination of women. I like that definition better than the one that says that only people in the power structure could be racists.
    .
    .
    In the US, all whites, like it or not, benefit from the racism inflicted on blacks and minorities. That doesn't necessarily make them overt racists, but since by inaction or feigned ignorance they do reproduce racist forms of social organization, they may be acussed of it.  See for example, Peggy McIntosh.
    .
    .
    Saying that, hopefully, doesn't make me a "reverse racist"; what is regrettable about the whites that are truly racist is that they hold the ideology of "whiteness" and "white supremacy," as  George Lipsitz puts it: "I hope it is clear that opposing whiteness is not the same as opposing white people. White supremacy is an equal opportunity employer...."  (click on the link "Read the introduction" for the first chapter of a very interesting book.)
    .
    .

  •  i changed the diary title to put quotes (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    sberel, Wildthumb

    around the "black people cannot be racist" phrase to make it clear that this is not some cockamamie personal opinion of mine that I came up with by myself tonight but a topic of general interest among sociologists, psychologists and many others who study race relations in a serious way.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:05:49 PM PDT

    •  TrueBlue, I agree with you. Sorry to come on so (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      TrueBlueMajority, blindyone

      late. Jesse Jackson mentioned this distinction between white racism and black prejudice a long time ago.

      I may do a diary some day on strictly white racism
      and how whites in our society are loaded with it.
      No one wants to admit being any kind of racist. They think it would be lumping them with the Klan. But a white person tensing up suddenly when they see a black person is racism. There are degrees of it from a non-discriminatory, casual racism to wanting genocide.
      Almost all of us whites, thank God, are on the casual side of the spectrum, but it's STILL RACISM. And because whites have had the power in this country for four hundred years there is still no comparison between white "prejudice" and black "prejudice."

  •  Ya know, something that just (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wildthumb

    occurred to me... is racism a mental illness syndrome?

    paranoia, delusions, fears?

    Can you hold a delusion of grandeur for your entire 'race'?

    I'd certainly think racists are in deep need of some therapy...

    Those who labour in the earth are the chosen people of God. - Thomas Jefferson

    by Ezekial 23 20 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:13:33 PM PDT

  •  Thank you (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Wildthumb, blindyone

    This needed to be said.

  •  I'm noticing a lot of resistence.... (5+ / 0-)

    ....to the idea that all whites benefit from racism, which should be pretty clear. What's even more disturbing is that this is supposed to be a progressive website. All I see is a bunch of white cluelessness. People get very prickly and defensive when you suggest that they might have it easier than someone else.

  •  thanks for the lashes with a wet noodle (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    blindyone

    i'll check comments again in the morning.

    peace be with you all.

    Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

    by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 08:58:30 PM PDT

  •  This is a great diary (4+ / 0-)

    I'm not surprised, having read about a third of the comments section, with the responses here.  No matter how "liberal" this site, the Democratic party still has a very long way to go.  I tipped you though, for attempting to tell the truth.

    "My favorite is Greta Van Susteren"--Kirsten Gillibrand

    by GN1927 on Sat Aug 01, 2009 at 09:12:04 PM PDT

  •  There are few things I hate more (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Samulayo, rockhound

    than trying to argue with someone who defines their own words. What the point? As long as you get to define what racism is such that only white people can be racist, then, yes, only white people can be racist. But you don't get to make up your own language if you want to effectively communicate with other people. If I cite you the dictionary definition of racism, you can't turn around and say that the dictionary's wrong, it doesn't understand the nuance, maybe the dictionary itself is racist. Language is a common, collective enterprise and words only have any real meaning in so far as that meaning is commonly understood, and under all commonly-understood definitions of racism characterize it as a set of beliefs, prejudices, opinions. Whether or not or the extent to which a particular racist has any power or not is not relevant to the question of whether they are a racist.

    Even if we take your definition of racist, however, that it requires the ability to exercise power in a racist fashion in order to be a racist, it still doesn't hold water that minorities can't be racist. We could start with inter-minority conflicts for example, just to take some easy cases. The Mexican Mafia is a powerful gang in California that has driven black people out of certain neighborhoods by targeting innocent blacks for no other reason than their skin color. Are they not racists, to the extent that they do this?

    There may also be situations where blacks do have power over whites. I'm a manager in my job, there are whites who work below me. If I act in a racist manner and negatively affect their work environment, their chances at promotions, etc., would I not be a racist even though I'm black?

    The whole thing just does not make sense. You don't need to have power over anyone to be racist, and, in any event, minorities oftentimes do have power over others.

    •  one thing i find interesting (0+ / 0-)

      is how many people deliberately recast the title/topic from "black people cannot be racist" to "only whites can be racist"

      interesting perspective.

      i concede there are isolated pockets of local power like the gang activity you mention that may have existed for a while.

      i still object to equating that with the institutionalized oppression that has existed in all the rest of the country since before its founding.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sun Aug 02, 2009 at 07:42:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Don't tell me blacks can't be racist! (0+ / 0-)

    I grew up in a lilly white neighborhood. When 12 years old, walking down the street and passing a couple of black guys twice my age, one of them coldcocked me. . .knocked me right off of my feet.

    When my business was going under, I called a black friend of mine and asked if he could use me. He hired me and then proceeded to treat me like his "boy". I should hate him for what he did to me, but I know a bit of his experience. I know he once drove his pregnant wife to the hospital and was refused service because of his skin.

    I'll never know what the first fellows problem was, to strike a child, but don't tell me blacks cannot be racist. That's just making excuses.

    •  again (0+ / 0-)

      individuals acting on their personal bias and bigotry do not have the institutional/systemic power of the entire culture behind them.

      for a more positive analogy:  a group of hippies may have started a commune in Vermont in 1967, sharing everything equally and living happily there still today, but no matter how large the group gets, or how much local influence they have, they cannot be pointed to as an example that the United States is a collectivist society.  they are still an isolated pocket of something that is not reflected by the culture as a whole and the power system as a whole.

      Politics is like driving. To go backward, put it in R. To go forward, put it in D.

      by TrueBlueMajority on Sun Aug 02, 2009 at 07:50:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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