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Step up guys. (self.hearthstone)

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[–]charlesviper 23 ポイント24 ポイント

Some of the top tier decks require cards you don't have? No shit? Get more cards via time or money, or quit.

No, not "no shit". I'm tired of the old guard of TCGs saying "hey in MTG we paid thousands for our collections". Hearthstone isn't MTG. Valve have proven that you don't need to put gameplay behind paywalls in order to monetize a popular game. The community should be pressuring Blizzard to make cards more popular and accessible, and monetize the game through things like:

  • Card Backs
  • Boards (that your opponent also see)
  • Alternate voice art
  • A pay/tournament/code-only card class above Golden
  • "Fun" offline adventures (Naxx is a great first start)

If ranked play had all cards unlocked, or if they made better use of the "Basic Card" system, it would be huge for the longevity of the game. It's not too late to change now. CS:GO and Dota 2 are proof that this is true.

The longer this goes on, though, the harder it will be to change. That's bad for the long term success of Hearthstone as it is incredibly difficult to unlock all cards. It's also too easy to unlock Golden cards. That should be a sign that things can (and in my opinion, should) be re-aligned cost wise.

If you are spending $100+ on this game, you damn well deserve more than just card parity with the people who have played an hour of arenas a day.

If you haven't invested a penny in this game, either as a beginner or as a seasoned veteran, you don't deserve the flash that people who financially support this game get. But you do deserve to be on equal footing gameplay wise.

[–]uhhtj 30 ポイント31 ポイント

People actually think it'd be a good idea for all cards to be unlocked from the start? That's just silly. A core strength of card games is the puzzle aspect of making best use of the cards you own. It's also essential to progressively disclose the huge amount of complexity of the game. The difference with Dota is that heroes in Dota aren't granular in the core game mode.

[–]robob27 6 ポイント7 ポイント

I have to disagree with this. I'm really satisfied with the shop setup in Hearthstone. As a former MTG player who stopped playing because of how expensive it was, I love that I can earn card packs instead of buying them, but can still buy them if I want. I feel that it isn't hard to earn a card pack in Hearthstone at all and the fact that you are always guaranteed at least one rare (or better) per pack is really fair. In 1-2 days you can easily get a new pack. That's not even considering arena and the possibility of turning 150 gold into much more than 1 pack! That's way more Hearthstone packs than MTG packs for me per week, more and more chances to get cards I need. Not only that, but I can even disenchant my extras or cards I don't need, allowing me to specifically craft cards after a while. I can't even think of a better/more fair way for them to have set it up.

Edit: I just wanted to add that they even made it so you can get Naxx for free when that would have been a really easy opportunity for them to just say "nope. either spend the money to get the cards, or don't get all of the cards and be behind in the meta, or just stop playing and have just wasted X amount of time that you were playing, you didn't give us money anyways :)". I just think they have been great with this so far and I guess I'm surprised that some people don't.

[–]mymindpsychee 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Your base premise is flawed. Since the base of Hearthstone is a free to play game, any money you spend is for convenience. By spending money, you gain cards by not having to grind arenas for 5 months. You exchange time for money. Ultimately, you will have the same card set whether or not you paid. What is different is the amount of time spent--just like in every other CCG that has ever been created.

All the forms of customization that you mention like card backs and boards and voice arts work in games like Dota2 because there's enough a variety of cosmetics that you can create through the Steam Workshop. With Hearthstone, there isn't enough of that. If you want to compare, Dota2 has over 100 heroes and each hero has 5-9 different cosmetic slots. That offers a huge variety in cosmetic set creation. What does Hearthstone have? Card backs, boards, voice art. Not nearly as appealing to spend money on.

[–]charlesviper 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Steam Workshop is a new thing, and most cosmetics in both Dota 2 & CS:GO are not from the community. They are from Valve.

Furthermore I am not suggesting Blizzard set up a Steam Marketplace-like architecture (it's too much work at the moment, although this too was added in after the Backpack concept was introduced to TF2).

Scarcity develops value. That's why Legendaries are 1600 dust, because they set the drop rate lower than that of basic cards. They could just as easily have a "Diamond" card back only accessible to players who pay money (or unlock through tournaments). Ditto "Diamond" cards instead of golden cards.

Diamond legendaries could be directly purchasable in the store, not as a "pay to win" mechanic but as a way for players to support the game while giving the "hardcore superfans" (as Gabe Newell put it circa 2008) a way to show off.

Literally everyone wins in this set up. This community sounds like the LoL community by saying "I DON'T WANT UNLOCKED GAMEPLAY! I WANT MY EXPERIENCE TO BE RESTRICTED!"

It's absolutely bizarre to me.

[–]Doobiemoto 14 ポイント15 ポイント

Or how about it is a card game and you should pay money like every other fucking cardgame?

Jesus fucking christ people are cheap.

I hate this "I PLAY THE GAME I DESERVE STUFF DERP DERP. EVERYTHING SHOULD BE FREE DERP DERP."

EVERYTHING IS FREE. You just have to invest time into it. If you don't want to invest time, then you pay money for the random, let me repeat that, random chance you can get the cards you want.

There is nothing wrong with that. I love Dota 2 and they have a fantastic system, however, half the fun of a card game is unlocking cards, hell even in MtG and what not. You should not be given something for doing nothing.

[–]charlesviper 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I've spent something like $90 and 100-odd hours on this game and I am nowhere close to unlocking all cards. I am close to quitting (and my money goes with it) and just watching / working on the eSports sides of things.

I know there are people out there with their brains wired in a "press button, receive value" kind of way. That was Blizzard's bread and butter for the past decade with WoW. It doesn't appeal to me.

DERP DERP

Great to see the top minds in favor of a pay to win experience in Hearthstone. Really winning arguments by saying "DERP DERP" to the points I make.

"Pay" meaning, either pay money or time. Want to go ahead and calculate the total cost of ownership for all Hearthstone cards assuming 0-hours invested? It's not going to be pretty, I guarantee you that.

however, half the fun of a card game is unlocking cards

If it's unlocking stuff for the sake of unlocking stuff, I'd argue that unlocking super valuable cosmetics is more interesting than anything. Look at how disappointed a streamer like Amaz is when people donate to him to open 40 packs. He has all cards unlocked, and golden versions of most everything.

Dota 2 & CS:GO have cosmetic items that are worth $400+. People open thousands of dollars worth of crates to get a chance to earn that $400.

Hearthstone could easily run the same business model. There's absolutely nothing stopping them. And people like you defend keeping gameplay mechanics out of the hands of the average user including yourself. It's bizarre. Why ask Blizzard to restrict your own access to this game?

EVERYTHING IS FREE.

Maybe if you're 14 and it's summer everything is "free". I don't have time to play this game for thousands of hours to unlock all content (and I have relatively more free time to spend gaming than my peers in my age group).

Furthermore, even within this argument you're wrong, as some gameplay content is only available to people who were playing in Beta.

[–]Venerac 2 ポイント3 ポイント

If ranked play had all cards unlocked

fuck that. Opening packs hoping for new cards to grow your collection is half the fun of this game.

[–]wakeh 2 ポイント3 ポイント

A card game and a moba are two completely different games. Don't try make them the same thing, because they aren't.

[–]programmingd00d 2 ポイント3 ポイント

It's also too easy to unlock Golden cards.

IIRC it'd cost thousands of dollars ($4500?) on average to get a full set of golden cards, assuming you spent the entire time doing everything perfectly efficiently (versus reality where people craft a card they want as they need it).

I think "they're too accessible" is a bit of an exaggeration given that price point.

[–]charlesviper 0 ポイント1 ポイント

They're not behind a paywall (you can dust them). Furthermore, you don't need a full set of golden cards. You don't even need a set of golden cards for the cards that are competitively viable. You just need 30 golden cards, many of which are Basics that you get after three to five hours playing a class.

[–]jackpg98 10 ポイント11 ポイント

Why does someone who has never paid Blizz a penny "deserve" anything?

[–]Vomitclaw 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Because they are players. A game developer has to respect their players and give them the opportunity to play a game that is both fun and challenging but also fair. If they think that the players don't deserve anything like you do, then no one would play that game.

[–]AT-Fields 4 ポイント5 ポイント

The whole point of a trading card game is to build the best deck out of the cards you have, it's why so many MTG players love arena - that game mode is essentially a $2 booster draft you can play at your own pace. When every player has access to every card, constructed turns from "what is the best deck I can make" to "what is the best deck". That just means stagnation for the game long term, especially when expansions are only 30 or so cards. Not to mention the nightmare it'd create having to explain to the people who even bought a single booster why everyone is getting for free something that they paid for when the game has only been out for a few months.

[–]SirFrancis_Bacon 7 ポイント8 ポイント

The whole point of a trading card game

trading card game

Maybe there should be trading?

[–]mymindpsychee 1 ポイント2 ポイント

TCG and CCG (Collectable card game) are currently interchangeable. They both have the core elements of having to build your own collection in order to create your decks. TCGs simply let you trade for the couple of items that you desperately need and acquire them a little easier.

[–]Typhron -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Right?

That's what makes Hearthstone one of the prettiest mini-games around.

[–]Sinrus 0 ポイント1 ポイント

They could implement that, but it's impossible to have both a trading system and a crafting system. In the end I think it would only make it harder to get the cards you want, as people would hoard the good ones.

[–]chaoticlight -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

I agree with this, not to mention the payers=players mentality is what creates pay to win. Hearthstone is meant to be a light cg filled with rng and fun cards. It isn't meant to be MTG or anything remotely close. It should never cost hundreds of dollars/thousands of hours of time just to be dealt the resources to build a proper deck and improve.

[–]buddha_bro 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Not all business models work for all games.

[–][削除されました]

[deleted]

    [–]LazyBlueStar 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Considering youre insane enough to pay 6.5k into a game, id say youre crazy enough not to care....

    [–]Sidian -5 ポイント-4 ポイント

    Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, a lot of people think this is unreasonable and will bring out their collection of stupid buzzwords starting with 'entitled.'

    There's no reason TCGs have to go hand in hand with greed. My dream is for there to one day be a F2P TCG with the card diversity and complexity of MTG, the client and polish of Hearthstone and the payment model of Dota. A man can dream...

    [–]Geo_Hon -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

    My first TCG let's be real here, I have spent about 80 on the game and have pretty much all the non legendaries (bar 5-6). And with the dust I usually craft a legendary once a month or so. I started playing just before the game left beta. I am not disappoint.

    [–]charlesviper -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    My first TCG here. Someone donated money to cover 40 packs on stream, and I bought another ~60 packs + 20 arena runs + Naxx.

    Currently have 5 legendaries, almost no cards outside the "good" cards (dusted them all for other legendaries seeing competitive play), and I am unlikely to invest any more money in to this game as I think the ~$115 Blizzard earned from me this year is enough.

    I don't have the money or the time to unlock all content, and I will likely get burned out on this game sooner because of it.

    Look at the community complaining about the prevalence of Zoo: you don't think that's in part because it's so cheap?

    This game being P2W (even if that's a time grind with zero cash investment) is dangerous.

    [–]carlfish -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

    Valve has the advantage of (a) sitting on a gigantic money-printing machine called Steam, and (b) being a private company with no shareholders looking at the bottom line and asking if they're leaving money on the table. That gives them an enormous amount of breathing room to develop games without a clear revenue model then "see what happens".

    Blizzard's money-printing machine, on the other hand, is gradually running out of gas and they're looking for consistent revenue streams to replace it.

    The thing is, if you charge for something you can always make it free later, but if something is free, slapping a price on it later will kill you nine times out of ten. So it makes sense for Blizzard to pick a model for selling collectable cards that has been validated by the market for at least a century, before worrying if there are enough people interested in card backs to represent a reasonable return on investment.