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Misconceptions about Legacy (self.magicTCG)

keyboard_mash が 投稿

So the other day this post ended up on the front page, and I noticed a number of arguments that I hear over and over again that frankly are pretty misinformed. That the reserved list is the fault of greedy legacy players wanting their cards to hold value, that the list is the only reason legacy as a format is hard to buy into, that modern was created to surpass legacy as the popular eternal format and that the number of dual lands in circulation will eventually reach zero due to people losing them. I'm a bit fed up with people who don't understand the format talking about it like they do, so I decided to make this post explaining why a lot of the common criticisms you'll hear to do with legacy are simply untrue.

One. "The reserved list is the fault of legacy players!"

Alright, so some basic history first of all. The reserved list (which you can find here) dates back to 1996, between the release of Homelands and Alliances. After Chronicles, where a number of expensive cards were reprinted signifiantly and plummeted in value, players grew wary to invest in Magic since they didn't know when WoTC would decide to reprint another expensive staple they owned. In order to create a sense of security in the value of their cards WoTC decided to create the list, so that players could be confident that their cards would never be reprinted. Randy Buehler also explains it well in this article. However, at the time the only sanctioned constructed formats were Standard and Vintage, or as they were known at the time Type 1 and Type 2. Legacy as a format wouldn't properly exist until 2004 when the banned and restricted lists of Type 1 and Type 1.5 (Legacy) were seperated. So to put the blame on the playerbase of a format that was born 8 years after the beginning of the reserved list is a little farfetched. What's more, the most common viewpoint you'll hear among fans of legacy is that they'd rather the list be abolished so that newer players can acquire ABUR duals more easily.

Two. "The reserved list is what makes legacy so much more expensive!"

This is pretty easily refuted by looking at the actual decks played the most. Prices of paper versions are used. I used the top 10 decks from here.

Miracles - 2940.38$

Total price of reserved list cards - 1178.63

Elves - 1935.17

Total price of reserved list cards - 1001.74

RUG Delver - 3597.48

Total price of reserved list cards - 1437.48

Shardless BUG - 4463.65

Total price of reserved list cards - 1676.25

BUG Delver - 4104.94

Total price of reserved list cards - 1774.22

Burn - 187.00

Total price of reserved list cards - 0

Storm - 2224.73

Total price of reserved list cards - 1513.26

Esper Deathblade - 4355.14

Total price of reserved list cards - 2181.55

UWR Delver - 3176.19

Total price of reserved list cards - 1660.40

Dredge - 634.27

Total price of reserved list cards - 359.00

Force of Will, Wasteland, Fetchlands, Show and Tell and Sneak Attack, Tarmogoyf, JTMS... Most of the more expensive cards required aren't even on the list, but still don't see any reprint outside of judge foils anyway. The only expensive cards on the list that are played are the ABUR duals, LED, and cards needed for specific decks like Gaea's Cradle or Candelabra of Tawnos. Few of these decks have greater than 50% of their price come from reserved list cards; only Storm has much more. It's pretty apparent that most of the cost of legacy comes from cards that are expensive regardless of the reserved list.

Three. "Modern was created to kill legacy anyway! People want to play it instead!"

Modern as a format was created to replace extended, after it died off when it was restricted to "double standard" rather than the last 7 blocks as it used to be, as explained by Tom LaPille here. It was intended to replace a dead format outside of the PTQ season with something that players could play the whole year around. However, this has very little to do with legacy, as legacy was never seen as a competitive format by WoTC in the same way that extended was and modern is. Although the formats share some staples like goyf, bob, or fetches, legacy has many cards that could never be printed in modern like brainstorm, force of will, and wasteland. While I'm sure a lot of people enjoy playing modern, legacy remains the format of choice for many others, and continues to grow. As you can see from this graph, attendance for legacy has only increased over the last few years as SCG has continued to support the format. Or this graph of the size of Grand Prix since modern's birth. It shouldn't be hard to see that people play each format for different reasons (although a lot will play both formats), and that modern thriving will not spell the downfall of legacy or vice versa. Both formats can be succesful without either one cannibalizing players from the other.

Four. "There's only so many ABU duals around! Eventually they'll all be ripped up and legacy will die!"

This is possibly the worst criticism of legacy I've seen being said often. There's simply no justification to assume that people aren't taking care of the duals that they do own, and old hoards from the attic are being discovered all the time, certainly at a rate higher than they're being ruined at. Naturally in a few hundred years they'll all fall to pieces due to wear and tear, but over the next 10 or 20 years it's a very stupid assumption to make that any significant amount would become ruined. As it is there are more than enough duals to make legacy a viable and thriving format. The fact that ABUR dual's prices are going up only indicates an increase of interest in the format as the demand for them increases, not that the supply of duals is going down.

I hope this puts to rest some of the more pervasive rumours about the format that people hold. It's a shame when people dismiss one of the most enjoyable formats magic has to offer without fully understanding the relationship that the reserved list has with prices and the format itself.

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[–]namer98 82 ポイント83 ポイント

Four. "There's only so many ABU duals around! Eventually they'll all be ripped up and legacy will die!"

Sure they won't get ripped up. But if you need duals to get into legacy, then there is a growth cap on all decks that use duals. Just because it is slowly growing, does not mean it will always grow. You will hit a point where the mere fact that there are only so many duals around will limit incoming players. This is on top of the price of duals adding over a thousand dollars to most decks. People will want to buy them, and most are weeded out by price, and eventually the rest will be weeded out by a lack of product, which will only cause an ever growing price as we already can see.

[–]stnikolauswagne 12 ポイント13 ポイント

If it really ever comes to that point we might start to see shocklands enter legacy. Sure they are strictly worse than duals but you can still win matches wih them in your deck, especially if you do manage to grab one dual of each type you need.

[–]foolfromhell 18 ポイント19 ポイント

That will never happen - a shockland deck would be inherently worse than any other deck with ABUR duals and would never be competitive.

A more likely occurrence is if proxies were allowed.

[–]SleetTheFox 6 ポイント7 ポイント

A deck can be competitive without being optimal. It'd be an uphill battle but I could see people trying it in that hypothetical situation.

At the very least I've heard of people using Stomping Ground instead of Taiga in some Charbelcher decks, due to the nature of the deck and how little that downside matters to it.

[–]paulHarkonen 0 ポイント1 ポイント

The issue is that ABU duals are strictly better than shocks, meaning a deck running ABUs has a significant leg up in any mirror matches, plus a small leg up in other matches (or maybe not so small). It doesn't solve the "you must have this to compete effectively" problem.

[–]SleetTheFox 0 ポイント1 ポイント

It depends how you define "compete effectively." Success in Magic is a combination of the deck, the player's skill, and luck. Even if the deck is slightly subpar, there will still be occasions where the other two cause players to find some sort of success. You cannot compete optimally in Legacy without original dual lands (burn aside), and using shocklands reduces your chance of success, but it does not necessarily eliminate it. Hence why I said it's an uphill battle to cripple yourself like that.

[–]paulHarkonen 1 ポイント2 ポイント

The problem is that when discussing balance and power level you have to assume equal skill. Sure, sometimes skill will outweigh deck power, but a skilled pilot with a good deck will beat a skilled pilot with a bad deck.

You said it yourself, playing without ABU duals is crippling yourself. I would argue that crippling yourself is not competing effectively.

[–]bonerang 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Hell, with the prevalence of Wasteland in Legacy I would probably play basics over shocklands(in 2 color decks at least).

[–]Umezete 7 ポイント8 ポイント

WOTC will never allow santionable proxy event, some stores already hold proxy events. If you want to try legacy without the cost feel free to talk to your lgs.

[–]mjschul16 2 ポイント3 ポイント

They do well enough. Most of the time you don't have to take more than 2 off of a shock land if you play it in legacy, especially of you have one of each dual you need. You just need to adjust your play style so you bring them in tapped at times that it doesn't matter. Save the Duals for when you need an untapped land and can't afford a shock to the face. Maybe replace some of the Duals with more fetchlands, too.

[–]dar0za 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I use shocks in UR delver and don't have too much of a problem against fully loaded decks. A lot of the time I fetch for a Steam Vents EOT and at that point it may as well be a Volcanic Island. Sometimes I have to pay two extra life to put it in untapped but that disadvantage will almost never lose me the game on its own.

[–]Rootkit9208 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Or they could ban the ABUR duals.

[–]the0riginalp0ster 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I disagree and it is my opinion. Yes, life total is very relevant in Legacy - however, some decks are so quick where the 2 points of damage most likely won't matter. My point is the decks like reanimate, show and tell, and a few others, don't care as much about the life as getting around counter spells.

[–]PokemasterTT -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

There are decks that want to lose life, maybe that they will be viable one time.

[–]unionrodent 5 ポイント6 ポイント

The only deck I can think of that "wants to lose life" is death's shadow tempo, and current lists are running 4 Underground Sea, 2 Watery Grave. Almost no one plays that deck because it's costly to build and almost objectively worse than BUG Delver (you have a lot of mana problems wanting U on turn 1 and BB on turn 2 for liliana, hymn while trying to jam wastelands. Might as well just run tarmogoyf and abrupt decay instead of your gimmick)

[–]thedoh 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Sure [shocklands] are strictly worse than duals

Not necessarily. Death's Shadow goes better with shocklands than dual lands.

[–]Trei_Gamer 0 ポイント1 ポイント

1 corner-case with a fringe deck doe not an argument make.

[–]uudmcmc 0 ポイント1 ポイント

As a magic player who wants legacy to grow I wish I was a good enough player to top 8 opens so I could run shocks in a deck miracles or delver so that people could that they work and that they have less of an excuse to not try them out.

[–]Whisperer85 0 ポイント1 ポイント

You want to play shocks in the deck that cares most about preserving his life total? I'm afraid you just answered your own question.

[–]stnikolauswagne 0 ポイント1 ポイント

You dont neccesarily need to run 4 Hallowed fountain, the thing I would assume would start to happen is something like 1 tundra, 2 fountains, still with the full assortment of fetches. From my very limited experience with miracles (been only playing the deck since monday) there often are situations where you can fetch a tapped land eot to clear your top without getting punished super hard.

[–]uudmcmc 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Since there was no question in my statement your point seems to be slightly off context. There are very few decks that don't care about their life total. My point is that legacy is such a fun and dynamic format that I would play it with one hand tied behind my back than no play at all and so many of us jus shrug our shoulders and say "no duals no legacy" which is though valid from a competitive point seems more like an excuse.

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    [–]Ninja_Blue 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    I play Burn in Legacy and I would cry tears of joy if half of a tournament was using shocks.

    [–]stnikolauswagne 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Would you be that much happier if your opponent went "delta-fetch Untapped Watery Grave - lotus petal-entomb Iona- Reanmiate" than if he went "delta-fetch underground sea...."?

    Obviously I'm being facetious here, shocks do have some very, very serious downsides and I cant see anyone placing with shocks in quite a while.

    [–]Ninja_Blue 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Well obviously I don't care since I auto lose to combo, but all of the more "fair" decks playing shocks would just make it easier for my gameplan. Eidolon of Great Revels does so much work as is.

    [–]Umezete 5 ポイント6 ポイント

    Although this is true the bottleneck is nowhere near vintage which is which the bottleneck of legacy is always compared to.

    Duals aren't actually all that rare, especially when compared to the power 9 which holds vintage back as a format. They were reprinted in multiple sets and in foreign both wb and black-bordered. Although legacy does have a cap, its not as bad as people argue.

    [–]grandsuperior 4 ポイント5 ポイント

    Duals are always available, too. They're expensive, yes, but stores always have them for sale. I recently went about completing my set of 40 duals and I had no problems locating a single one. Meanwhile, I'm having a rotten time finding Celestial Collonades and Splinter Twins.

    [–]Timiniel 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Exactly, affordability and availability are different issues entirely, and people shouldn't confuse the two!

    [–]VeggieWombat 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Hu ? Here's 126 peoples sellings Colonnades ? http://magiccards.info/wwk/en/133.html

    [–]diabloblanco -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    I got a playset of Collonades instantly with PucaTrade.

    [–]everythings_alright 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    I was wondering... would it be possible to print lands that could replace, or maybe be an alternative to duals in Legacy? Because of course they can't reprint those and can't reprint a functional reprint either. I was thinking something along the lines of a shockland that also allowed you to scry 1 when it etb. That land would see play in Legacy, wouldn't it? Or a shockland that you could also cycle for the colors it produces. I think there are ways to print alternatives to Duals and it could surely be done even with other Legacy staples. They could print it in Conspiracy 2.0 or something, if they didn't want it in standard and modern.

    [–]dr_wat 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    If demand for the duals gets high enough, and the price for the cards gets high enough, counterfeit duals will begin to surface that are virtually identical to real cards. It costs a lot of money to make a good counterfeit, but if the price is right...

    [–]Plausible_Lies 5 ポイント6 ポイント

    The scary thing is that they are getting closer as they experiment more and more. Right now the older cards tend to have too much gloss on them and they can't pass the light test at all. They clearly have shown their willingness to get as close to accurate forgeries out there as they continue to change and adapt their methods of creation.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there is a small shop or individual is out there making perfect forgeries that doesn't flood the market and is making a nice profit as we speak.

    [–]Cr0c0d1le 7 ポイント8 ポイント

    Honestly though, is that such a bad thing? If they're truly indistinguishable, then this is just a sneaky way around the reserved list.

    [–]Plausible_Lies 4 ポイント5 ポイント

    That's a good question, and I can't tell you the answer. I can tell you that unchecked forgeries are a bad thing for market stability. However if it is a small operation slowly refilling them the market with exact forgeries then I can't really comment beyond the fact that they shouldn't be doing something illegal. However it does make me question what will happen if Wizards ever gets word of someone who has crafted an indistinguishable forgery.

    [–]VeggieWombat 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Nothing. If you there is no difference between the non-WotC and the WotC dual, you can't prove forgery. Even if you caught them in the middle of printing 2000 Tundras, it's still not illegal, just nice proxies. You'd have to document them printing Tundras, and selling them.

    [–]dr_wat 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    You could actually see if forgeries are being made by analysing the market price of duals, and see if they fit with expectations. Not many people are actually finding "huge stashes" in their attics, you know...

    [–]compacta_d 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    I just had a friend sort his old collection and had like 5. It happens. Just not going to speculate on the rate.

    [–]dr_wat 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Oh yes, it happens, but for every time someone finds 10, only one more legacy deck is born.

    [–]compacta_d 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    fair, but I do agree that there does not seem to be a shortage.

    What all the legacy players SHOULD be hating on is EDH for taking a full set of 10 in a deck without a competitive nature behind it. BWahaha

    [–]unionrodent 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    I expect that in the next few years we'll see the value of duals dented by very convincing counterfeits entering the market. It wouldn't take very many to cause a huge change in supply, and if these places can make convincing fake ID's (they are) then they can make ABU duals indistinguishable from real ones.

    Massive counterfeiting could end legacy, as it would eliminate SCG's incentive to support the format. But I don't think this will be instantaneous, but rather a long process of prices falling as rarity decreases.

    [–]DRUMS11 29 ポイント30 ポイント

    One. "The reserved list is the fault of legacy players!"

    I have never seen or heard anyone say that.

    Four. "There's only so many ABU duals around! Eventually they'll all be ripped up and legacy will die!"

    This is a bit of a silly overstatement of what is commonly put forth. I believe the general argument is that there are only so many A/B, UNL, REV duals in existence and there aren't that many in actual circulation. EDH takes some, people who just have them but don't play Legacy take some, collectors take some and then there is the inevitable accidental destruction that probably eats a small amount each year.

    That said, the analysis of the cost of RL cards in popular Legacy decks is interesting. Having seen that, WotC can give Legacy a big boost just by printing a "Legacy Masters" product or including cards in sets like Conspiracy. I think their problem has been getting new printings of these cards onto store shelves in significant amounts without putting them in a Standard legal set as theme decks with one copy just don't do it in the necessary volume.

    [–]Purpley333 6 ポイント7 ポイント

    Well it had to reprint a lot of these cards that are not on the list. If you go and reprint wasteland / fow. People will get there play sets and want to get into legacy. Then the demand for Abu duals goes up, making the more expensive

    [–]remy1177 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    I really think that scars block fast lands with basic land types would fix the problem. Past 3 lands most decks don't need any more untapped.

    I also do think that if wizards really wanted too they could get away with Force of will reprint. Just put it in a meta with thoughtseize, LoTV and other relevant hand disruption spells.

    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

      [–]keyboard_mash[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

      The first one was said in the OP of the post from a few days ago I linked in the first paragraph.

      I was probably being a bit extreme with the strawmen, but it's something that I see some people honestly claiming. I just don't think that the number of duals total in existence has much impact on how much legacy can grow outside of limiting the price.

      It'd be really sweet to see some more widespread reprinting of legacy staples outside of the one or two we see in supplementry product like Conspiracy, but I have a feeling that WoTC doesn't care about the format enough to do that for us. It's definitely a problem that their widest avenue for reprints (standard sets) isn't an option for legacy cards due to the power level.

      [–]mulltalica 5 ポイント6 ポイント

      Don't feel bad about it. In that thread I literally had someone respond to my comment saying that the old Legacy playerbase was the ones asking for the Reserved List, claiming he had "done his research". Except the research that Legacy started after the RL was made.

      [–]Plausible_Lies 2 ポイント3 ポイント

      The amount of people who don't realize Chronicles was responsible for the reserve list is astonishing.

      [–]mulltalica 0 ポイント1 ポイント

      It really is. I honestly think a lot of it just has to do with the experience of the large chunk of the player base. Not everyone has been playing the game for 10+ years, and even then, not everyone digs and learns the entire history of the game instead of just playing it. And that's not to hold that against them, it's just the majority entering the game now only know of the Reserved List as this big angry thing blocking them from getting into Legacy for a reasonable price.

      [–]Plausible_Lies 0 ポイント1 ポイント

      I actually thought the reserve list was going to be an "in place for 20 or 25 years" clause which would go beyond the possibly expected lifespan of the game at the time. The fact that they can't discuss the reserve list is some what weird, but I understand that because if at the end of the agreement they just pump out reserve list cards then people would be waiting.

      The one thing about Legacy is that it is barely played in comparison to Standard or Modern which at least doesn't ostracize these players. Reserve list sucks, but people should at least understand where it came from.

      [–]mulltalica 1 ポイント2 ポイント

      It is weird they can't discuss it, and I'm curious who could possibly be invested enough in this game and have enough money to threaten WotC with legal action. Most of the major retailers (SCG especially) have come out against the RL and would love for WotC to abolish it.

      It's all about exposure. Back where I used to live, the Legacy scene was almost non-existent. During one Legacy tournament, we literally had to convince 3 Extended players to join in so we could fire off a full bracket after waiting an hour. Most people were all about Standard and legitimately thought Legacy players were the ones who wanted the RL to protect the value of their dual lands. Where I am now, there is a massive thriving Legacy scene (50+ players at the last weekly event I went to), and even Standard players are more aware of the format and how things are with the RL.

      [–]DRUMS11 0 ポイント1 ポイント

      ...but I have a feeling that WoTC doesn't care about the format enough to do that for us.

      I think they do care about making money, though.

      I expect that it takes less time and effort to create a set like Modern Masters, using existing cards only, than it does to design a set full of cards "from scratch" while designing a set: no card design, no story necessary, just development. Also, no need to test anything in Future Future League.

      Combine the lower R&D costs with sales driven by the players's desire to own not only interesting older cards but cards that are the "cream of the crop" of those cards and, having tested the waters with MMA, I don't see how WotC/Hasbro could possibly bear to pass up this revenue stream.

      [–]MeggidoX 15 ポイント16 ポイント

      I'm going to argue point four. Yes although duals are not getting ripped up they are indeed becoming harder to get. They are getting destroyed from people losing them, drinks spill on them, house fire ect. They are also being found in old collections too but there is only so many duals to go around. With the popularity of legacy going up and duals getting harder and harder to obtain there will be an issue and not in 100 years. I think in the next 10 we could see $500 dollar blue duals and $700 underground seas.

      You also need to account for wear and tear. There is a point where a card is no longer playable in a sleeve which makes that card pretty useless. I'm not talking about the near mind revised ones but ones that are on the borderline. When don't get left in a humid place or resleeved one too-many times they might break that threshold.

      Right now popularity is driving dual prices but in 10 years I think it will start being scarcity just as much.

      Yea the buy in for legacy is steep but for those of us who want legacy to thrive, myself included, we need to fix the barrier to entry. At what point do we say 200 dollars a card is acceptable and playing X deck can cost more than your car in some cases? I get that magic is about skill but for older formats if price keeps increasing it will be pay to win in a way. Yea decks like burn exist but cost should not be that major factor when deciding what you want to play. This also discourages people without much disposable income and younger players from playing these formats which isn't good either.

      Tldr: price and rarity of duals needs to be addressed

      [–]unfoldingdrama 15 ポイント16 ポイント

      I also think that the effect of the EDH player base on the supply of ABU duals is being underestimated. EDH has been experiencing pretty big growth over the past 5 years too.

      [–]StarkReaper 1 ポイント2 ポイント

      I completely agree. I have been held back from entering Legacy because of the total deck cost... but I just finished getting the full EDH set of dual lands. I can't imagine that there are not others like me willing to buy just one of each dual land.

      コメントをもっと表示する (4 返事)

        [–]val111 17 ポイント18 ポイント

        Legacy is doomed because it recieves next to no support for WoTC. Making Legacy more appealing/cheaper to get into would just cannibalize players from Standard, and WoTC has no desire to do that. WoTC could reprint many Legacy staples not on the Reserve list, they could easily fill up a Legacy Masters product with expensive cards if they wanted. There's a reason they don't.

        Both Modern and Standard sell packs. Legacy doesn't. It's pretty much as simple as that. If a format doesn't move sealed product, WoTC doesn't care about it. They didn't start putting out commander decks cause they thought "Commander is cool". They put out Commander decks cause they thought "Hey, here's a new format that can move sealed product!"

        SCG maintains Legacy so it has a place to sell Legacy cards and make a profit. That's all Legacy is anymore, a format propped up by SCG so they can make $$. The good news for Legacy players is that as long as SCG is making money, they will continue to keep Legacy alive.

        [–]jakmasters 2 ポイント3 ポイント

        A legacy masters-esque set would push a lot of sealed product sales.

        [–]Hanifsefu 0 ポイント1 ポイント

        Too bad that can't ever exist because of the Reserve List. Reprints of the non-RL cards would creature a TON of demand for the RL cards and then the people who got excited for legacy because of the Masters set would just sell their new cards because they can't pay $2000 for a mana base to actually play their deck.

        MM only saw true price decreases in cards that never should have been as expensive as they were and the printing of it only lead to Modern becoming more popular and the big staples that got reprinted going UP in price.

        [–]fish60 1 ポイント2 ポイント

        That's all Legacy is anymore, a format propped up by SCG so they can make $$.

        Wow jaded much? You fail to realize that WotC never really gave any support to Legacy. Its popularity back in the mid 2000s was totally a function of grassroots player support. While SCG may give Legacy a higher profile in the eyes of the general Magic public, people who play Legacy are passionate about the format.

        [–]TheRabbler 3 ポイント4 ポイント

        His point is valid though. SCG is nearly the sole reason Legacy still exists as a major competitive format and they only keep it that way because it gets people to buy expensive old cards that are otherwise worthless.

        [–]fish60 0 ポイント1 ポイント

        So you think that if SCG stopped Legacy this weekend Legacy cards would plummet in price? If that were to happen would you buy them?

        [–]TheRabbler 2 ポイント3 ポイント

        If SCG ceased supporting legacy for good this weekend, prices of legacy cards would eventually fall as sales plummet. The format wouldn't die out completely, but it would quickly become difficult to find players to play with. People suddenly have no real reason to own legacy decks that they can rarely, if ever, play and a large number of legacy staples get released onto the market, bringing the prices on those cards down even further. EDH and cube players get very happy, while we legacy players all slowly become modern players.

        This is all based on the assumption that WotC does nothing about the lack of Legacy support. Its possible that they'd release some kind of Legacy Masters product to keep the format alive, but without regular tournaments, the format would likely Peter out in time anyways. I personally think wizards would attempt to spin MTGO as the ultimate legacy replacement and I they would largely succeed as long as they could get the client working well

        [–]fish60 1 ポイント2 ポイント

        I would argue that as Legacy prices fell, more people would buy in. I know I would buy a bunch of stuff if prices came down. Which is why prices won't come down. People want them.

        You also seem to think that SCG is the only thing Legacy has going for it. In fact, Legacy has, and always has had, a ton of grassroots support. People were passionate about Legacy before SCG started supporting it and it blew up.

        [–]TheRabbler 1 ポイント2 ポイント

        While some would buy in as prices fell, most would leave the format alone. Perhaps your LGS has a great Legacy scene and maybe that's the case for everyone that isn't me, but currently I need to either wait a couple of months or drive an hour to play Legacy. That would only get worse if major tournament support was cut off entirely.

        [–]keyboard_mash[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

        While I agree that WoTC cares very little for the format and that SCG is the main reason it still exists any more than vintage, I don't think that it's a reason for doomsaying. There are plenty of enthusiastic legacy players still around and SCG has no reason to stop running tournaments when they continue to grow in size.

        [–]Timiniel -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

        So what about THIS misconception?

        Why do people think players who play legacy ONLY play legacy and DO NOT buy new cards?

        While that might be the case in your zone, your zone is not the world!

        [–]rain4kamikaze 1 ポイント2 ポイント

        Because ppl usually commit to a single format. Barring the pros, there are not many people out there who play multiple noncasual formats.

        Just ask your local legacy players to try modern or standard. I bet a few of them would be disgusted at the amount of creatures on the board.

        [–]Delicious_Randomly 2 ポイント3 ポイント

        As someone who got his start in semi-competitive Standard before the creature power-level creep, I am disgusted by the number of creatures on the board in the last few Standards. That said, and leaving aside how prevalent Mono-Black Devotion is, it's probably a healthier format than Mirrodin- or original Ravnica-era Standard were.

        [–]ViForViolence 0 ポイント1 ポイント

        I love Legacy. I play a lot of Modern, too. I used to play Standard, before they decided that creatures need to be the best spells, too. I'll return to Standard again, I'm sure.

        I also play EDH, draft, judge, etc.

        I've known a lot of Vintage players to only play Vintage, but Legacy players usually branch out.

        [–]darwinface0321 0 ポイント1 ポイント

        I actually know a good amount that play legacy, and then either standard or modern, along with enjoying limited quite a lot.

        [–]Usedinpublic 0 ポイント1 ポイント

        At my store only one legacy player doesn't play standard or modern. The rest of us are interested in playing the game. Regardless of format.

        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

          [–]infectiouscat 12 ポイント13 ポイント

          It's good to see this posted. It frustrates me to see and hear misinformation being thrown about concerning my favorite format.

          [–]Nerethos 0 ポイント1 ポイント

          Well sadly its something you should get used to. This thread can basically be summed up as "whining about legacy".

          I mean shit OP basically asked people to stop spreading misinformation and they're still whining about it. I guess players will bitch about anything :/

          [–]Atalvez 7 ポイント8 ポイント

          There is a logical fallacy riding alongside point #2. If the reserved list didn't exist wotc could aggressively reprint legacy staples. As it stands there is very little reason for wotc make FoW cost 20 dollars when the mana base for most decks will drive people away from the format by itself.

          If the reserved list were gone we could see things like legacy masters. With the lands guaranteed to drive the price of a deck over 1k, wotc realizes there's no point in making everything else cost "only" 400 dollars.

          [–]keyboard_mash[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

          Sorry, what's the logical fallacy? I don't quite follow you.

          [–]Atalvez 7 ポイント8 ポイント

          Wotc has little incentive to lower the price of non reserved legacy staples because the reserved staples guarantee an incredibly high price point for most decks.

          If the non reserved parts of these decks suddenly cost 200 dollars, most of them would still cost more than the down payment on a car because of the reserved cards. Not to mention the fact that this would cause reserved prices to skyrocket as the demand for them would be higher.

          [–]Saljen 10 ポイント11 ポイント

          So when $1500 of a $3000 deck is on the reserved list and can never be reprinted, you're saying that's not a bad thing? The price of Magic needs to come down period. Anything outside of Standard is unplayable for anyone who doesn't want to invest over $500 in a deck! That makes Magic an extremely expensive hobby. Imagine how many more people would play Magic if you could spend $300 on a deck that will last for more than 1 year until half of it rotates.

          [–]fish60 4 ポイント5 ポイント

          Sorry, but as expensive hobbies go, even Legacy is relatively cheap. Try snowboarding, golf, boating, motor sports, high end computer gaming, etc. I have spent 5 or 6 thousand dollar on Legacy in the last 8 years. That seems like a pretty good price to me.

          [–]SimTheGeezer -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

          All of those sound way more fun and worth it than some cardboard I can only enjoy if someone else got duped to spend the same amount of money.

          [–]fish60 1 ポイント2 ポイント

          Well, have at those hobbies then! I also enjoy snowboarding, but, believe it or not, good powder is even more rare than a good Legacy opponent.

          Please continue to not get duped by playing Standard, or paying 60 bucks for a modern bordered fetch land!

          [–]SimTheGeezer -1 ポイント0 ポイント

          I was referring to the price of legacy. In my community it was impossible to start any sort of tournaments for it because of the price, and the only people who owned the lands either felt bad because of the lack of players, or had this same elitism.

          I know nothing of most of the hobbies you listed except for computer gaming which is why I can say it's a hell of a lot cheaper to build a pc and enjoy games for a longer period of time than spend on paper magic for the hopes that someone else did the same. If anything, legacy would thrive on magic online, but people are complaining about magic online being a shitty product.

          Edit: Also, I would rather spend ~$60 on a new game as opposed to paying another $1k for a different set of lands and cards if I have the wild notion of playing with more than 1 legacy deck.

          コメントをもっと表示する (5 返事)

            [–]keyboard_mash[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

            No, what I'm saying is that the statement "Legacy is only expensive because of the reserved list" is blatantly false. While I agree about the price of magic being in general too high, it is what it is.

            [–]Saljen 4 ポイント5 ポイント

            It's not "only" expensive because of the reserve list. You make it sound like the reserve list is not at fault at all, when it clearly adds SIGNIFICANTLY to the price of every major Legacy deck! You need to word your argument more carefully because it sounds like you're trying to say the reserve list is not at fault at all when clearly it plays a major role in the price of almost all Legacy decks.

            [–]keyboard_mash[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

            If the reserved list didn't exist I don't believe we'd be seeing reprints of duals anyway, so in that regard I do believe that the reserved list is a bit irrelevant. But if WoTC were a bit more proactive with their reprints then yes, it'd be a huge barrier.

            [–]Saljen 5 ポイント6 ポイント

            What's to stop a "Legacy Masters" type of set from existing? Oh right, the reserve list.

            [–]keyboard_mash[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

            That and the fact that WoTC hates reprinting legacy staples outside of judge foils.

            [–]Son_of_Iapetus 3 ポイント4 ポイント

            Then the real argument should be that Legacy is so expensive because Wizards doesn't want to reprint Legacy staples, with or without the reserved list.

            [–]keyboard_mash[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント

            That's really what I'm saying. The reserved list is certainly a part of it, but WoTC could really do a whole lot more to help legacy if they did care.

            [–]mtg_liebestod 0 ポイント1 ポイント

            Then why does Vintage Masters exist?

            [–]keyboard_mash[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント

            MTGO is a completely different beast to paper magic, and attitudes towards reprints in each medium shouldn't be equated.

            [–]mtg_liebestod -1 ポイント0 ポイント

            It isn't completely different. Why would Wizards be averse to reprints in paper but not MGTO? What would the reasoning be?

            [–]keyboard_mash[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント

            Because they don't care about the value of people's online collection, while they do about paper collections. This is why they are hesitant to reprint anything expensive in paper yet just released VMA.

            [–]Timiniel -1 ポイント0 ポイント

            The reserve list only applies to paper printing. That's the reasoning.

            [–]rp- 32 ポイント33 ポイント

            You're refuting the arguments people aren't quite making. I don't think anybody's claiming that legacy is dead yet; that clearly isn't true. Currently, it's got a large following on the SCG circuit.

            The issue is that the reserved list does clearly seals legacy's fate. It is the reason Modern exists, it's the reason costs for decks can't really go down. Those duals are 1000$ now. How much were they last year? The growth of legacy is limited. Legacy can't support the number of players who play standard right now. I don't think it can support the number of players who play modern.

            Legacy will eventually die in the same way vintage has. A general lack of tournament support is basically death. Currently the relevance of legacy is primarily dependent on the SCG circuit and it feels inevitable that some years down the road they're going to switch off of it. After all, it wasn't so long ago- 2008- when StarCity was holding Vintage events.

            Right now, SCGs modern events are the first death knell for me. I know I personally am switching over to modern on SCG sundays. I'd much rather play a format that I can play regularly and know fairly well than one that lacks local support and I don't know well enough to succeed in. My personal preference leans towards modern as well; I'd much rather play a format where the broken cards get banned instead of left to fester.

            [–]Timiniel 11 ポイント12 ポイント

            Pardon me, but did the rest of the world outside of the US suddenly disappear or something?

            You speak as if only the US existed and/or only the US had legacy >_<...

            The European legacy scene is older than the SCG opens!

            [–]TimothyN 2 ポイント3 ポイント

            Europe has a tremendous amount of Legacy tournaments, so between SCG and that Legacy's in pretty good shape. There are simply a lot of players with cards/disposable income that want to play at a power level and diversity that Modern will simply never have. That's fine, that's why they have different formats.

            [–]remy1177 0 ポイント1 ポイント

            Duals are not 1000s of dollars, look at revised ones. You can get some of them for as low as 100-200

            [–]the0riginalp0ster 0 ポイント1 ポイント

            I think you are foolish and sound like a player who doesn't want to invest in competitive decks.

            Legacy is not going anywhere. The only chance it has of becoming extinct is if revised duals hit 1k.

            SCG stop doing vintage events because they didn't want people walking in with 20k decks.....more than the payouts.

            コメントをもっと表示する (14 返事)

              [–]chazu_ 2 ポイント3 ポイント

              As an ardent fan of the Legacy format, thank you. It's an incredible format that most people wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole, for some reason or another. Here's to hoping for change.

              [–]fish60 2 ポイント3 ポイント

              I don't believe that most people won't touch it. From my experience, first newer players think Legacy is a broken format, then the see how awesome it is, then they see the prices, and are bummed they can't play to.

              People love Legacy. New players, old players, pretty much everybody. When ever I am playing Legacy at my LGS, we always get a crowd of people watching and asking questions. Legacy has an allure that, I believe is a key component in the resurgent success of Magic in the last 6 or 8 years.

              [–]chronoflect 2 ポイント3 ポイント

              I agree. Legacy is extremely interesting, since it is so high-powered yet balanced. I would love to play it at a competitive level but I simply can't afford it. Unfortunately, modern doesn't hold the same appeal to me. Far too many cards have been banned that I love to play with.

              [–]fish60 1 ポイント2 ポイント

              Don't give up! You can play Legacy. One piece at a time. It took me years, and years, to get in, but it is so worth it.

              [–]chronoflect 3 ポイント4 ポイント

              I simply can't justify spending that much money on a single piece of cardboard.

              [–]Whisperer85 0 ポイント1 ポイント

              Then proxy shit up and get in touch with the legacy community. If they are smart, they will let you borrow cards. And if you are good, you will win some of the cards you need until buying the few you lack suddenly becomes feasable.

              コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                [–]Usedinpublic 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                I'm with this guy. I traded for most of my legacy deck and spent maybe $200. And I went 3-1 at my lgs.

                If your store doesn't have players running tier 1 decks. You can get away with a weaker mana base. Then slowly collect the more expensive pieces or trade for them if someone is transitioning out of the format.

                [–]LonelyCannibal 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                So to put the blame on the playerbase of a format that was born 8 years after the beginning of the reserved list is a little farfetched.

                I'm not attempting to blame Legacy players for the reserved list, but Wizards' reprint policy has been altered numerous times since its creation, most recently in 2010.

                To claim that Legacy had no bearing on alterations to the reprint policy that occurred after Legacy supplanted Vintage as the most popular Eternal format is, ahem, "a little farfetched".

                [–]ViForViolence 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                By the logic of all these responses, a format's health is only determined by whether it can be infinitely sustained.

                Legacy is healthy right now, guys. It might be in worse shape in 10 or 15 years, that doesn't mean it's not healthy now. My grandma is healthy right now, and I don't expect her to be around in 15 years. That doesn't mean she's not healthy now.

                [–]zaphodava 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                With a Sharpie, you can play Legacy all you want.

                [–]emptyshark 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                I just found out that one of my local shops has a weekly, unlimited proxy legacy event. I'll for sure be checking that out.

                [–]Yogurt_Popsicle 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                The fact that ABUR dual's prices are going up only indicates an increase of interest in the format as the demand for them increases, not that the supply of duals is going down.

                The only thing that the price going up indicates is that the price is going up. It doesn't mean more people are buying them, it doesn't mean more people are playing the format. It only means that it is becoming more expensive to get into Legacy if you're interested in playing.

                You're falling into a misconception of your own if you think that prices increase is only determined based on demand.

                [–]yung_wolf 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                You'd need to compare the growth of Legacy to the growth of Magic on a wide scale. Modern is growing so much faster than Legacy, and once SCG stops supporting Legacy as an Open format (which could happen as soon as next year), Legacy will die as a competitive format. The introduction of Modern Premier IQs on Sundays is a bad sign for legacy, as well as SCG circuit regulars like Kent Ketter, Jeff Hoogland and Gerard Fabiano choosing the Modern Premier IQs over Legacy opens. As far as card prices go, Wizards choosing not to reprint cards that aren't on the reserved list is damning the format to eventual obscurity. I really like Legacy and I love my Elves deck more than anything else I play in Magic, but the writing is on the wall, and it'd be dumb to ignore that.

                [–]keyboard_mash[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

                I don't see why you'd think SCG would stop supporting legacy for opens... They reduced the number of legacy opens held last year and did double standard or modern, but realised it wasn't worth it and we're back to legacy every event this year. Pros choosing modern over legacy is no concern to majority of players as it makes sense for them to play more in a format that is more relevant to pro magic. I don't see why modern and legacy can't both enjoy growth together.

                [–]Robtom_5 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                Modern and Legacy can't grow at SCG together as they both compete for the sunday slot unfortunately. And after events like GP richmond with 5k people it will start to become harder to justify a tournament for under 500 people (this number is based off most of the events being 8-9 round swiss). I love legacy as a format and which it had the potential that modern does but it's hard to justify as a company compared to formats without such a notable limit

                [–]yung_wolf 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                Well, last year was BGPR (Before GP Richmond). After the turnout and the growth that modern has experienced since then, it's reasonable to suggest that Modern would draw a bigger crowd, as most of the Legacy crowd would play Modern Opens and having Modern as the main event on Sundays would bring in the segment of the player base that is excluded by Legacy prices. Plus, Modern cards are much easier to sell than Legacy cards, which has to be enticing for SCG with the possibility of increased attendance over Legacy Opens.

                [–]GreenWhiteBlue 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                Just want to voice an observation from a country (South Korea) where Magic is not as established as some places (U.S., Japan).

                Legacy as a format commands few loyal fans, but due to the extremely small player base, shops are not able to hold regular legacy events, and as a result, formats such as Modern and Standard are growing while Legacy is essentially not.

                [–]marcospolos 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                If you weren't given 10+ duals by your friend for free would you even have made this post? 3,000 to buy into a card game is too much money for 95% of people, period.

                [–]iloveboardgames 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                I recently bought into legacy and ponied up about $2,000 for dual lands. Some people buy purses with their money, some people buy expensive wine, I choose to spend my disposable income on magical cards. I play all formats but I prefer legacy for its diversity.

                コメントをもっと表示する (6 返事)

                  [–]thedoh 6 ポイント7 ポイント

                  Of the 600 cards played in the last SCG top 8 only 35 of them were on the reserved list.

                  [–]Spitball_Idea 6 ポイント7 ポイント

                  I count 39, but the interesting bit is that 32 out of those 39 are lands.

                  [–]thedoh 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                  I missed Dream Halls but only came up with 38. What else did I miss?

                  1. Moat - Death and Taxes
                  2. Tropical Island RUG Delver
                  3. Tropical Island RUG Delver
                  4. Tropical Island RUG Delver
                  5. Volcanic Island RUG Delver
                  6. Volcanic Island RUG Delver
                  7. Volcanic Island RUG Delver
                  8. City of Traitors Omni-Tell
                  9. Dream Halls Omni-Tell
                  10. Dream Halls Omni-Tell
                  11. Dream Halls Omni-Tell
                  12. Intiution Omni-Tell
                  13. Intiution Omni-Tell
                  14. Bayou BUG Delver
                  15. Bayou BUG Delver
                  16. Tropical Island BUG Delver
                  17. Underground Sea BUG Delver
                  18. Underground Sea BUG Delver
                  19. Underground Sea BUG Delver
                  20. Underground Sea BUG Delver
                  21. Null Rod BUG Delver
                  22. Scrubland Esper Stoneblade
                  23. Tundra Esper Stoneblade
                  24. Tundra Esper Stoneblade
                  25. Tundra Esper Stoneblade
                  26. Underground Sea Esper Stoneblade
                  27. Underground Sea Esper Stoneblade
                  28. Taiga Lands
                  29. Tropical Island Lands
                  30. Tropical Island Lands
                  31. Tropical Island Lands
                  32. The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale Lands
                  33. Badlands Jund
                  34. Badlands Jund
                  35. Badlands Jund
                  36. Bayou Jund
                  37. Bayou Jund
                  38. Taiga Jund

                  [–]Spitball_Idea 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                  I think you're missing a copy of intuition in a deck other than Omni-Tell, can't look it up right now though

                  [–]thedoh 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                  You're right. There's 3 copies in Lands!

                  [–]NightHawk521 6 ポイント7 ポイント

                  So I don't follow legacy but statements like this are/can be super misleading. It doesn't matter that only some low percentage of the cards are on the reserved list it matters what those cards are.

                  It would be like for modern if there was a reserved list with splinter twin on it. It doesn't matter that splinter twin is a single card, it matters much more that its the defining card in a deck and what makes that deck a thing. You can't very well remove splinter twin and still have a splinter twin deck. If those are the cards that define/are crucial for the deck, it doesn't matter that there are substantially less of them in winning decks (in comparison to non-listed cards).

                  Like I said I don't follow vintage so I don't know for certain, but I imagine that a lot of that 35 are lands and mana-bases are super restrictive.

                  [–]thedoh 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                  Most of the cards on the reserved list in the count are mana producing lands. It's not relevant: the supply of those dual lands is extremely high and demand is even higher.

                  The point is that a small fraction of the cards being played today are on the reserved list. The ones on the list are certainly powerful but one only has to look at the top 8 and see the majority of the cards in every deck are in a new frame and it is the cost of those new cards which outstripe reserved list cards in each deck's cost.

                  [–]roykillany 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                  tag onto that the misconception that legacy is all about first or second turn kills.

                  [–]GreenWhiteBlue 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                  wholeheartedly agree. that's exactly why I dismissed for format for about half a year when I started looking into playing competitively.

                  [–]drspock4ever 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                  In all honesty though they are frequent enough to make it a frustrating format. If you don't play FoW you are at a distinct disadvantage.

                  [–]Timiniel -1 ポイント0 ポイント

                  Define "enough"... How frequent is frequent "enough" for you?

                  コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                    [–]val111 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                    No offense to the legacy community, but why are so many legacy players so insanely defensive about the format?

                    It's like the whole format suffers from short man's syndrome. I rarely see Standard, Modern, Limited, heck even Vintage players get anywhere near as defensive over thier format of choice.

                    Crazy idea, if you like legacy, play legacy, and if someone else doesn't like Legacy, regardless of the reason, let them not like Legacy. No one cares about your musings on the reserve list or card prices or availability of duals or whatever else you are soap boxing about. Play the game you want and others play the game they want.

                    [–]goblinpiledriver 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                    Because when people post "legacy is dying" threads, it steers potential new players away from the format. That group is the only force actively hurting the format. In fact it's the only group actively hurting any particular format.

                    WotC's modern support isn't a legacy killer. Many players play in multiple formats, so while modern may be a replacement for WotC's bigger events for business reasons (they want a format that's a bit more approachable financially so they don't lose customers when players see that their options are $1500+ or standard), people still like legacy just as much. In fact modern can act as a stepping stone to legacy for many.

                    I don't disagree with your last paragraph, but the legacy doomsdayers (not to be confused with legacy doomsday players :P ) are even worse since they're actively hurting an important part of the community by spreading negativity and misinformation. Someone's gotta call them out on it.

                    [–]cromonolith 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                    Legacy is the format surrounded by the most misinformation. Standard and Modern are fine, everyone knows they can play those. Vintage is out of reach for 99% of people, so no one bothers talking about it. Legacy is within reach of many people. Many more people than are aware of it.

                    I bought into a Legacy deck over the course of the last year or two without much financial strain. The sticker shock is crazy if you just go to SCG and put it all on your credit card at once or something, but no one does that. It takes a while to buy into Legacy, but it's doable, and will generally turn out to be profitable for you in the long run. I thought I was insane buying my first NM Underground Sea for $120, and now I wish I'd spent my life savings on them. Particularly for people who play Standard for years and set fire to their money the whole time, it can be done. You will lose money on your Standard play and you will most likely lose money on your Modern play. You most likely will make money in the long run buying Legacy stuff.

                    People don't see that though. They just see tons of threads about the format "dying" and threads about the decks costing $5000 and nonsense about all the games being turn 1 combo kills and get scared away. It sucks. Legacy is the most interesting format in Magic, and it sucks to see so much misinformation about it.

                    [–]keyboard_mash[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

                    I wouldn't really see it as defensiveness, it's more like frustration when people continue to say the same things about the format that are easily dismissed when you do some research into it. I'll admit legacy has a lot of problems, but when people get basic facts about the format wrong then still use them as criticisms it irks me. It's like saying that the only relevant card in standard is thoughtseize or that every modern deck is midrange or combo; it's just ignorance of the format speaking.

                    [–]val111 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                    Getting upset about things other people think that do not affect you in thew slightest? Why do you care what other people think? If someone felt the exact opposite of everything you posted here, would you enjoy playing Legacy any less? Do you honestly thing someone is going to read this and do a 180 and decide to jump into the format now? No one is going to believe that the RL is killing legacy, read somehting from an anonymous person on the internet, and go "Wow, I was so wrong, I'm going out and buy UW miracles this afternoon!"

                    You're just preaching to an echo chamber.

                    コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                      [–]Timiniel 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                      So, if someone doesn't like vaccines because they cause autism, you don't correct them?

                      If someone doesn't want to travel because the world is flat, and you'll fall off the edge of the world, you don't correct them?

                      Basing an opinion on false premises is NOT ACCEPTABLE. It is our DUTY to ensure people are properly informed.

                      If someone dislikes legacy but knows how it is and has that dislike well substantiated and fundamented, sure. Props to him or her. Thing is, many people dislike legacy for something that legacy is not, and if it is not us, the players, that try to fix that, then who will?

                      コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                        [–]Gigafather 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                        It'll be harder to get into any format that has large buy-in, but even if the costs went up in future there is still Online where even Black Lotus is 200~ so even if the paper cards met a hard cap or weared down, the formats will still be plenty playable.

                        [–]jetcape15 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                        I have issues with a lot of your points.

                        1. The reserved list is the fault of legacy players.

                        No one says this, but the kernel of truth here is that some people do blame certain groups within the Magic community for Wizards' refusal to do away with the reserved list. The argument goes that people who already own the expensive reserved list cards wouldn't want to see the reserved list abolished, because it would mean that their cards would drop in value. The group that more often gets blamed for this mindset is "the collectors," though, not legacy players. Legacy players have been been pretty vocal in their support of doing away with the reserved list so that more people can play, at least from what I've seen.

                        2. The reserved list is what makes legacy so much more expensive.

                        Most people don't argue that the reserved list is solely responsible for legacy being expensive. People do argue that the reserved list contributes to legacy's high barrier to entry, which you actually lend support to in your analysis. While a lot of the cost of legacy decks comes from non-reserved list cards, a lot of it comes from reserved list cards, too. This is especially true considering that there are generally a lot fewer reserved list cards in a given deck and yet in several of your examples half the cost of the deck is because of cards on the reserved list.

                        People also point out that the reserved list staples like dual lands will continue to rise in price, and since WotC won't reprint them, they'll eventually get to the point where many people are priced out of the format. In other words, it's not just that legacy is expensive now, it's that it will continue to get more expensive and Wizards can't do anything to cap the rising prices.

                        3. Modern was created to kill legacy.... People want to play it instead.

                        This is actually two separate arguments: 1) Modern was created to kill legacy, and 2) People want to play modern instead of legacy. First off, the argument that people want to play modern instead of legacy is pretty obviously false, as you point out. But again, no one really says that. Some people argue that modern is better than legacy, but that's different (and, FWIW, purely a matter of opinion).

                        As for modern being created to kill legacy... well, some people do argue that, actually. But this isn't a "misconception" so much as it is conjecture. WotC has told us some things, but people can always guess at what was "really" going on behind the scenes. Still, based on what they've told us, we can know some things with reasonable certainty: Wizards did create modern partially as a replacement for extended. But the other people are also right that Wizards created modern as a "fixed" legacy, a legacy where they were free to reprint staples if things got too expensive. WotC has stated on multiple occasions that they created modern because they wanted a non-rotating format that didn't have the problem of the reserved list.

                        4. There's only so many ABU duals around. Eventually they'll all be ripped up and legacy will die.

                        If people actually say this, then yes, it is a misconception. The underlying issue is a very real one, however, and that is that there are a truly limited number of many of the reserved list cards. This goes back to point #2. Cards might not be being actively destroyed at a high enough rate to affect prices, but that doesn't mean the already limited quantity won't hurt the health of the format in the long run. Prices will continue to rise and will eventually be too high for anyone but a select few to enter the format.

                        [–]MonkeyMitcho 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                        Thank you. As someone who doesn't play legacy at all this post was very informative :)

                        [–]grandsuperior 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                        Upvoted. Glad to see a post like this dispelling the myths about legacy. The Reserved List is certainly an issue, but it is not as catastrophic as some would have you believe.

                        [–]havinfunthere 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                        IIT: people who own a legacy deck arguing with people who don't that it is not "catastrophic" that competitive decks cost a month's salary.

                        [–]SerHodorOfHouseHodor -1 ポイント0 ポイント

                        ITT: people complaining about legacy because they want to play a format they cant afford with out having to spend any money in it and making the reserved list a scapegoat for a problem they don't fully understand.

                        [–]Timiniel 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                        To be frank, I started building my current deck when my deck costed four times my monthly salary. It was completed after a couple of years. My opinion didn't change.

                        If you like something, you save for it. You work for it. You get there. You can't expect things to simply fall onto your lap.

                        [–]mcfarad 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                        The point I made in my post, which probably is driving some of this, is that a lot (not all) legacy players play the format to be elitist and not have to deal with what they consider standard scrubs and casuals. Then get stupidly mad when casual player drops $120 on burn and performs well.

                        I've interacted with them and the attitude is the same as dealing with a bunch of OG hardcore WoW raiders "oh...you don't have vials?...you can't play with us...lulz". Or rich kids with nice cars "Oh...you don't have parents who bought you a $50,000 car at 16?...you can't hang with us...lulz".

                        Obviously there are probably some great people out there who play legacy but my experiences lead to a bunch of guys they're better than others because they possess some card board that is older than some other card board.

                        [–]keyboard_mash[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                        I'd love to see more enthusiasm for legacy from newer players, even if they're playing with shocklands or just playing burn. Especially with the recent printing of Eidolon of the Great Revel, burn has becom much stronger in the current legacy metagame. It's really unfortunate that the majority of legacy players you've interacted with have been elitist assholes, but a lot of us aren't anything like that. If I could then I would make every card worthless so that anyone would have an equal opportunity to play, but unfortunately that just isn't feasible outside of proxy events.

                        [–]mcfarad 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                        I've met a few good people.

                        Generally the people I've run into would be assholes in general about other things, but Legacy MTG is just there out where I interact with them.

                        [–]TaonasSagara 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                        Most of the legacy players I know are really down to earth chill. They know they have a good deck. But even the best deck can be beaten by the underdog.

                        Heck, my reanimator list lost to a standard deck the other day. Was I mad? No, I was laughing my ass off cause it was funny to see a T1 legacy deck get knocked over by a standard deck.

                        [–]mcfarad 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                        Probably just depends on your area too. The places I've lived generally aren't friendly towards the nerd/gamer/geek/etc... culture. Generally bible belt people. So people tend to be jaded towards anybody out of their circle because they're shunned by most of the people where they live.

                        Hell I had interventions with my pastor after Columbine happened thousands of miles away...because I listened to Korn. So that's the logic most of us grew up around there so some of the jaded attitude is understandable.

                        [–]EdGuise88 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                        I happened to comment of a different thread the other day (relating to modern) in which i said the following:

                        "I've had people try to push me into Legacy before, but (to me) its always felt as though its a format only pushed (on me) by the players because those who play it have invested so heavily to do so."

                        Whilst I'm not knowledgeable enough about the format to contribute to the main discussion, this thread really seems to reinforce my above point. The more you try to ram things down people's throats, the more they want to gag.

                        [–]goblinpiledriver 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                        How does your experience with being forced on legacy compare to modern?

                        Also, while I do believe people who have spent a lot on legacy want to keep it afloat to continue to enjoy what they've bought into, have you considered that many legacy players think it's truly the most fun and interesting format? I certainly think so and that's the reason I try to get people into the format.

                        [–]keyboard_mash[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

                        This post is just a response to the post from a few days ago where pretty much every argument I criticised above was posted. You're welcome to go there and read it; I linked to it in my first paragraph. You probably just haven't heard of the arguments because you don't read much about the legacy format in general.

                        [–]EdGuise88 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                        That is true. But my point is that legacy players especially seem to get hyper-defensive at the mere suggest that their format isn't the best thing in existence. This is not the most attractive quality to find in players/meta.

                        コメントをもっと表示する (1 返事)

                          [–]SerHodorOfHouseHodor 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                          Good write up I enjoyed reading this. Non legacy players will continue to bitch and moan about the reserve list for the next 10 years, as theyve done for the last 10, and legacy players will keep playing it for the next 10 years, as theyve done for the last 10.

                          [–]andrewgioia 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                          Thanks for posting this, I too get a bit annoyed at a lot of the misinformation going around.

                          I think a more overarching misconception about Legacy is that there is even a problem at all with the format (or that attendance and growth less than Modern/Standard is even a bad thing). A 9 round Legacy Open is a nice sized tournament and (I think) appropriate for Legacy's place in the MtG spectrum.

                          Right now Magic has a tiered format structure that gets more expensive as you open up the card pool. Standard has the lowest price and card availability barriers to entry, then Modern, and then Legacy. I think this is actually a good thing for the game for two reasons: (1) it gives new players a progression that isn't overwhelming at first (in both cost and card pool), and (2) the average age or experience level of players in each format is also appropriately progressive.

                          The cost tiers regulate these very effectively and help keep the more complex formats (Modern and Legacy) to tournament players who are ready for those interactions or are at least familiar with them--I think Wizards gets this. Legacy is not a beginner's format, it has a lot of available cards and complex rulings and a big draw to this format is that experienced players get to play together. You can argue with me on this but the cost is not prohibitive right now for the people who want to play--it's not that much more expensive than Modern and when I got back into the game I started with cheaper alternatives and worked up. There has also been no indication that it will be too expensive either (in fact the opposite is true, attendance has gone up as prices have risen).

                          I think the "health of Legacy" is not the same as that of Modern or Standard. Legacy is and should be reserved for players with more experience and its costs are a good way for it to self regulate that. It doesn't need to expand rapidly, it's a slower growth format. Anyone who wants to play can play, and just like Modern (and Magic in general!) you're going to have to pay a bit if you want to win with the best cards.

                          [–]Timiniel 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          Legacy is not a beginner's format

                          Yeah, I'm not sure here. Several of the people I play with and one of my playtest partners are new players. In fact, one of them wasn't really paying much attention to magic until he saw us playtest legacy and fell in love with it.

                          It's a cultural thing, but exceptions exist... If 1 in 100 players play legacy, then I'm willing to bet the chance for a newb to like legacy is close to that 1 in 100 (WARNING: Numbers pulled from thin air, and definitely not close to reality, they were made up to state a point).

                          [–]andrewgioia 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          Oh absolutely, I'm just talking generally though. Most new players would have a difficult time playing in a legacy tournament just because the sheer number of cards and interactions take a bit to learn. I know quite a few newer players that love it too I just don't think the format is very beginner-friendly for the most part.

                          [–]Vomiting_Winter 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          There's no doubt that the reserved list is a major reason legacy is so expensive. Duals shot up in price and have been rising ever since WoTC let us know the reserved list is here to stay.

                          [–]Pistallion 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          Magic is one of my favorite games ever, but the prices of playing any format, is just so off-putting. I'm a competitive player, so Im not interested in opening packs and contructing decks from garbage cards. I also am not a fan of limited.

                          That being said, I have quit magic after playing a ton, a couple months ago. I wish i could still play every day, as it is such a fun game and easy for friends of mine to get into. but even though I have a well paying job, i still think I am getting ripped off (mostly by secondary market, not wotc) by the absurd prices, and rather play other games that dont cost near the amount of magic.

                          The formats seem flawed, as standard prices are def not bad at all, but i cant handle the fact that almost every card becomes useless after they rotate. Paying $20 for a card that is now worth $1 is so upsetting. Then you have modern and legacy where the fetch lands are just a joke... i simply dont have any other option to simply quit playing entirely

                          [–]Ringtailed79 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          You're wrong about the dual lands. It's a hard cap on the format. In fact, Wotc used to publish their print numbers so we know what that cap is. I can't find it on my phone, just google "Crystal Keep MTG" and you can find print runs of ABU

                          [–]jakmasters 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          The reserved list is the fault of collectors really, which shouldn't matter as much to WoTC because collectors aren't the ones pushing sealed product sales. The abolishment/amendment of the reserved list plus an influx of staples via sealed product would breathe life into the format, allowing for new growth and innovation (which are the two key things any format needs to remain healthy). Old duals etc would hold their prices in the long run simply due to rarity, but reprints would bring down the near crippling cost of entry.

                          [–]kenshin80081itz -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

                          Amen brother.

                          [–]CmSrN 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          I am not a legacy player. I would like to be, im interested in the format, but my wallet keeps me and almost every single player i know (and by "i know" i mean i play and talk on a daily basis) from get into legacy... I would build a Belcher deck (without the Lions) but that isnt a deck i would like to play, so, by now im off the legacy play. Some players i know have legacy decks (about 2 or 3 in about maybe 500 players that i know) and they just have their decks at home getting dusty, because there is not way they can play them, and if they play, after some time they already know their opponents decks and it gets boring... why should i and my friends spend 2k-3k on a deck that will get dusty, on my point of view you buy a deck and you get the most of it by playing and having fun, but, if there is almost no one to play it, you rather have your money in the bank...and that conversation of : if you all buy into legacy (assuming we somehow get the money to) you will have people to play... sure that is true, but we will know each ohters decks, we will get bored of playig always the same, there is no surprise, because there is no legacy tournaments even near of where we live, and we are from europe, not some 3rd world country....

                          In my point of view, legacy is a great format, i watch the opens every week throw the night (until 5am, because of the diference of time in US) , the cards are expensive for some reasons described above, but you guys are forgeting ONE IMPORTANTE REASON:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAeYbRoioPI .... the collector's... i know this inst a legacy staple, but i know for a fact there are people with this kind of collection of ABUR lands and some reserved list cards... because every year the price rises... and their collection value rises by that much times the number of cards... if the price doubles, they just doubled their money , this is best than the stock market... your dusty cards and doubling your money and you are in your couch super cosy having a hot coco... and this happens for the reason of reserved list, passion about the game/card, and nowadays, by business men that dont know the game and buy because they heard of the phenomenon (i have met one acctually) ... so magic, and legacy are dangerously close to a business rather than a game (on my point of view of course)... and this business men are actually well protected by the reserved list... they have a product that only rise the value while the game remains popular with no risks taken of losing everything to a reprint... there is a win win... (im sorry for my english, not my native language)

                          [–]chuckiefresh4 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          I'll just post this every month:

                          The price / rarity of duals can't be addressed. The reserved list isn't changing, so either pony up or don't.

                          As for those who've chosen to pony up, stop this ridiculous bullcrap about the death of the format. It isn't dying; it's growing. It doesn't have to keep growing or increase the speed with which it is growing for Legacy to be a more than adequate format for its players.

                          Stop this ridiculous bullcrap about Wizards refusing to print cards for Legacy. In the last two years alone we got a lot of juicy Legacy reprints in Conspiracy as well as True-Name, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Eidolon of the Great Revel, and Deathrite Shaman. Spirit even came with an article explicitly indicating that they made the card for Legacy and discussing how Legacy is still a consideration during set design.

                          It's not complicated. Legacy is expensive. It's also fun and desirable. If you want to play buy the cards and if you can't afford to then that's your business. The format doesn't need you - it is perfectly healthy right now.

                          [–]Derekthemindsculptor 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          Just a small technical note. Legacy and vintage are eternal formats. Modern is not.

                          Just sayin'.

                          [–]keyboard_mash[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

                          Yeah, I know, it's just easier for people who don't understand the distinction.

                          [–]gentlegreengiant 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          While growth of the format doesn't need to be fast, it still needs SOME growth.

                          Even without looking at the finance and economics of it, if the format doesn't have growth, the format will eventually shrink as players get bored and move onto other things. If legacy can't replace players leaving with players entering, it will see less support than it does now.

                          [–]keyboard_mash[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          But the format is growing, and has been since SCG started supporting legacy opens. More and more players are buying in every week.

                          [–]mnap1122 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

                          Merfolk is as good or better then many of these decks and is about $800

                          [–]keyboard_mash[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          I just picked the 10 most popular decks played, didn't worry about the viability.

                          [–]mnap1122 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          I know I just figured I would mention for people trying to get into legacy but maybe at a lower price, great read though,

                          [–]igot8001 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          Merfolk is not better than any of the decks listed.

                          [–]mnap1122 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                          It's much more consistent and because blue is so popular in legacy it's islandwalk gives it a huge advantage

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