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[R]eddiquette[R] Where is the Muslim outrage? (self.india)

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[–]husainhz7 21 ポイント22 ポイント

Disclaimer: I am a Muslim. I hope you considered that you cannot blame the whole community for the action of a few. I know it is not a few. But these blood- thirsty people cannot be considered Muslims. Those who kill innocents are STRICTLY not Muslims. They may call themselves but are just blindly using religion as an excuse. Islam DOESN'T approve or encourage wars against non-believers. Most of these just uneducated people who have nothing to do. So please I hope you change your wordings and place groupings carefully, for if you continue I, a scout, topper, would be soon degraded to a damn terrorist.

[–]moojowhat what 10 ポイント11 ポイント

Those who kill innocents are STRICTLY not Muslims.

The problem is that extremists think the same about you, moderate muslims. So who is right?

[–]nlpreddit 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Actually, I feel sorry for how moderates are unfortunately dragged into this mess. There is no doubt that the muslim community has some major brainwashing problems. And there is no doubt that this attitude makes it difficult for others to deal with muslims in general. It is just sad that regular folk who also happen to believe in Islam get dragged into this atmosphere of hatred. But I guess it must be apparent even to guys like you, why the situation is like how it is.

The only real solution I see for this situation in the future is that people realize that religion in general is just fantasy and become non-religious or treat spirituality as something strictly personal and avoid getting into any organized religion.

[–]funkymunk 22 ポイント23 ポイント

Then ask your mullahs to say it out loud on their websites. Condemn it throughout the community and disown the perpetrators publicly. Until that happens, it is difficult to believe what you say.

[–]rahulthewallKadhi Chawal Bhakt -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

Just one example: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Deoband-first-A-fatwa-against-terror/articleshow/3089161.cms

There are many others, wonder why you never remember these.

[–]funkymunk 7 ポイント8 ポイント

Let me. I am not a right-wing person, if you are mistaking me for one. And you are, as evidenced by your tone. That fatwa might be the exception to the norm of silence. Is it hard to see/realise this?

The guy whose comment i replied to might be a peaceful dude, but like they say, the silence of the good people is the greatest threat to society. Likewise, the silence at-large of moderate muslims is detrimental to Muslim society, and therefore, Indian society.

[–]azfun123 7 ポイント8 ポイント

Thousand of scholars speak out against terrorism, but you just never read the news.

Here on ISIS. Head of the saudi's fatwa committee called them terrorists.

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/conclusive-scholarly-opinions-on-isis/

Sheikh Abdul Aziz al-Fawzan is a member of the Council for Human Rights, a Professor in Islamic Jurisprudence and the Head of the Department of Comparative Jurisprudence at the Islamic University of Imam Muhammad b. Saud in Saudi Arabia.[18] He says:

“ISIS is a rogue, external criminal organisation. Whoever knows of what afflicted us in Iraq and Afghanistan and the blood that was spilled unjustly at the hands of some ignorant individuals in our nation will understand the gravity of what is happening in Syria.”

That fatwa might be the exception to the norm of silence. Is it hard to see/realise this?

It's not. There are many fatwas from scholars who have denounced terrorism. Fault is on your part when you don't read them.

[–]DaManmohansinghIlya i laurëa ná, mirilya lá, 1 ポイント2 ポイント

You do know that Saudi family funding and funding from Emirs in Qatar and Kuwait gave rise to ISIS right?

Problem is after taking over oil fields in Syria, Baghdadi doesn't need them and is slipping out of their control and now has threatened Saudi Arabia also.

This fatwa is an attempt to control the Frankenstein monster.

Nothing in Saudi Arabia is done without approval from the family..the family funded and created this monster and now is asking it's fatwa department to do damage control. It is entirely political.

[–]azfun123 3 ポイント4 ポイント

What the saudi royals do is not reflective on muslim. Most of the muslims hate the saud family because they are corrupted and live an un-islamic life while still implementing all strict rules on the population. It's the private donors from the family who are giving the funding. Not the government.

the family funded and created this monster and now is asking it's fatwa department to do damage control.

There are many scholars from syria, egypt and top scholars who have condemned them, not just Saudi scholars. Read the link.

The US, cia all them supported the mujahideen in afghanistan. They indirectly/directly funded and paved for the creation of al-qaeda and osama bin laden. Now US is are supporting the rebels in syria. Most weapons which the ISIS takes is exactly from the rebels which US is supporting.

[–]funkymunk -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Here on ISIS. Head of the saudi's fatwa committee called them terrorists.

That country refuses to allow its own women to drive and allows Indian labour to be brutalized. Unless they give up their foolish and antiquated ways, there is no reason to respect anything they say, and nothing that they say in this regard is more than a joke to me. Besides, the Saudis spend a considerable sum of money to propagate Wahhabism, the slightly more intolerant interpretation of Islam, and ISIS is a Sunni org.

In fact, if you are looking for good example of this nature, Iran is more respectable and credible option than Saudi. In their institutes of higher learning, there are more women than men. They even allow Jews to live there and make their own daroo despite their relationship with Israel and despite alcohol being taboo in Islam.

But wait, that is a Shia country, so fuck them, eh?

[–]azfun123 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Why do you go off topic? The current topic here was denouncing ISIS and terrorism. The link which i gave you consists of a fatwa from top 47 saudi scholars denouncing ISIS. It also consists of statements from syrian muftis.

there is no reason to respect anything they say, and nothing that they say in this regard is more than a joke to me

Yeah right. They denounce terrorism and you call it a joke. And then later you say why they the wahhabist government supports terrorism and ISIS. Most of the users on /r/india say youth are joining ISIS because of the wahhabbist interpretation. Yet the top scholars themselves have denounced and have given fatwas against joining the ISIS and called them terrorists.

Your previous comment.

Then ask your mullahs to say it out loud on their websites. Condemn it throughout the community and disown the perpetrators publicly. Until that happens, it is difficult to believe what you say.

I just linked you their statements. Yet you call it a joke and ignore it. Why?

[–]funkymunk -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

You went off topic by bringing in Saudi Muslims when we were discussing Indian Muslims.

Furthermore, a Saudi panel denounces an org on the one hand, and the Saudi government sponsors the same org (directly or indirectly) on the other hand. How can the fatwa committee's criticism be credible when the government that pays the committee is also an indirect sponsor of the same org? Is the conflict of interest not clear enough?

[–]azfun123 3 ポイント4 ポイント

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/19/saudi-arabia-rejects-iraqi-accusations-isis-support

The Saudi statement said:"The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia wishes to see the defeat and destruction of all al-Qaida networks and the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (Isis) operating in Iraq. Saudi Arabia does not provide either moral or financial support to Isis or any terrorist networks."

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/saudi-funding-of-isis

At present, there is no credible evidence that the Saudi government is financially supporting ISIS. Riyadh views the group as a terrorist organization that poses a direct threat to the kingdom's security. The Interior Ministry formally designated ISIS as a terrorist entity in March, along with Jabhat al-Nusra, the Muslim Brotherhood, Yemen's Houthi rebels, and Saudi Hezbollah. The designation outlawed various forms of support to the group by residents of the kingdom.

It's a misconception the saudi government supports ISIS. I have already linked you that the scholars don't support ISIS. It's the private donors who are giving money to ISIS, not the government. In fact they classify them as a terrorist organization.

[–]funkymunk 0 ポイント1 ポイント

It's the private donors who are giving money to ISIS, not the government.

pfft, that way Pakistan had declared the Taliban as a terrorist org as well. what next? Also, in Saudi, or in any decent country for that matter, do you think it is possible to move large sums of money without the government knowing it some way or the other? It could be that they are turning a blind eye, but they know. Just like I believe Modi knew what was happening in Gujarat, the SC verdict notwithstanding.

Sabhi log chutiya bana rele hai bhai, bante rehna hai toh bante raho.

[–]rahulthewallKadhi Chawal Bhakt 1 ポイント2 ポイント

That fatwa might be the exception to the norm of silence.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

Likewise, the silence at-large of moderate muslims is detrimental to Muslim society, and therefore, Indian society.

The silence of the moderate Hindu towards openly communal activities by RSS/VHP/BD are detrimental to the Hindu society, and therefore, Indian society. Where is the outrage for that?

Each time the question of muslim outrage comes, you get people here who are muslims condemning the violence. In each instance of terrorist attacks, you see muslims condemning the violence. Yet, you keep on harping on the issue of missing outrage.

[–]DaManmohansinghIlya i laurëa ná, mirilya lá, 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Did any of the Muslim intelligentsia decry the Kashmiri pandit cleansing? Or the blood letting in Syria? Or the Saharanpur riots? Or the murders of Hindu org workers in TN? And the list goes on.

[–]funkymunk 1 ポイント2 ポイント

See, i don't discriminate among religions. Each is equally shitty to me. So please give that logical fallacy example to someone else.

As for hinduism, shitty aspects of it such as casteism, devdasis, khaps, and general ignorance need to be identified and mitigated at different levels. And the real rabid dogs in hinduism are generally ignored. Even in this sub, which is heavily right wing biased, you will not find support for Pramod Moot-ali-kai.

As for Muslims condemning things, i am happy for them. But you name me the bombs that hindu, christian, sikh, parsi, Buddhist, jain, etc, terrorists have set off in India and then let us compare it with the number of "muslim" (extremists) bombs set off in our country in the same period. Or the number of hindu terrorists (not naxals, their ideology is different) involved in anti-national activities. Then we can place hindu outrage and muslim outrage on the same pedestal.

[–]rahulthewallKadhi Chawal Bhakt 5 ポイント6 ポイント

I gave an example elsewhere: Naxalism. The biggest internal security threat to our country. Tell me again what has that got to do with Islam?

[–]funkymunk 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Or the number of hindu terrorists (not naxals, their ideology is different) involved in anti-national activities.

I addressed this. Did you not read my comment before replying?

[–]rahulthewallKadhi Chawal Bhakt 4 ポイント5 ポイント

I did, seems like you did not get my point. There are other examples of Muslims condemning terrorists (see what happened after the Mumbai attacks) but you are choosing to ignore them and continuing to believe that they don't outrage often.

[–]funkymunk -1 ポイント0 ポイント

see, I am trying very hard to understand what you're saying. but the point is that shit is happening in the name of Islam, and it is readily apparent. So we should also consider the effectiveness of such condemnation, which seems to be very low at the moment. That point, it seems, is not getting to you somehow.

[–]IndianDude51Don't like me? Press Ctrl+Shift+W to activate Ignore Mode[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント

This is nothing more than a formality. Have you ever seen communal Muslim leaders being named and shamed on news TV channels like BJP and RSS leaders are? Why the double standards? People criticise Modi all the time, why nobody criticizes Azam Khan, Owaisi or Syed Ahmed Bukhari?

[–]rahulthewallKadhi Chawal Bhakt 1 ポイント2 ポイント

They routinely are, just look around.

[–]adwarakanathO re Bismil kaash aate aaj tum Hindustan 1 ポイント2 ポイント

What channels are you watching?!

[–]mikotimein ek saal ka ho gaya! 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Jun 2008. 6 years ago. Uske baad there have been countless other fatwas. Pliss to not mislead others, moderatorsaab.

[–]knightsamar -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

Yes, let's also ask the Shankaracharyas to speak out against people like Babu Bajrangi and Dara Singh (Odisha case). Shall we ? Ask the oh so holy men to speak out against casteism openly.

Just because some Hindu men brought down Babri Masjid and some even today glorify the act, does it mean that all Muslims should hate all Hindus ?

It's easier to point fingers at others forgetting that every religious or school-of-thought-sharing community has it's own class of criminals.

[–]blues2911 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Umm hindu figures particularly the RSS have done more work than anyone else to curb casteism.

The difference here is that whenever theres an incident of hindu extremism theres more than plenty of moderates who raise their voice - not just public figures but middle classes included. Among muslims this is completely absent.

[–]DaManmohansinghIlya i laurëa ná, mirilya lá, 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Are you equating a Babu Bajrangi to somebody like Hafees Saed or Baghdadi?

Or are you saying Hinduism is as violent and intolerant as Islam?

[–]ravenfest 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Or are you saying Hinduism is as violent and intolerant as Islam?

Technically speaking it is much more violent for sure .

Naga Sadhus are a good example . + all the weapons and blood involved in kali worship .. + the various child sacrifices that tantriks get up to quite regularly.. + all the violence inherent in killing in the puranas...

Even the big myths are war stories .

For intolerance , the caste system, gotra marriage killings , khap panchayat rapes and the untouchablity that is the legacy of Hinduism is all the proof you need. I dont see a dalit sankracharya yet.

[–]linux_shadow -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

What the hell do you mean by 'EQUATING' and 'AS' intolerant? Are you trying to imply anything positive about babu bajrangi?

Is there a benchmark to compare these rotten people or the mindless, selfish and parasitic ideologies that supports them?

Any organized 'religion' can be as violent and intolerant as any other. such organized groups gradually get taken over by assholes and turn into terrorist mobs. there are numerous examples all over the world and during all times that prove this fact

[–]blues2911 1 ポイント2 ポイント

So you ARE saying islam is not the most intolerant anti social religion

[–]linux_shadow -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Any organized 'religion' can be as violent and intolerant as any other.

So you ARE saying islam is not the most intolerant anti social religion

Which part of my comment gives you that understanding? cognitive challenges?

I have better things to do than to maintain a list of religions based on intolerance. All of them can be very bad and all of them can be good. as an individual i hate most of what islam preaches. but then there are many things in other religions that i abhor too.

i dont care about religious affiliations. i look at people based on their deeds, so there are good folks who keep the world running and then there are criminals and rascals who are parasites. if a large majority of such criminals claim allegiance to islam or use a particular social networking forum or eat a specific food, that means nothing. basic grouping is that all of them are criminals. you are unnecessarily trying to invent correlation where it doesn't help.

[–]funkymunk 9 ポイント10 ポイント

Yes, let us ask them to do that. Assholes should not be tolerated, regardless of their religion.

And the practise of caste is revolting to me. I have suffered considerable personal damage because of it.

In my opinion, all religions sjould be declared as fairy tales, and the world must be made to move on. But doing so would be too extremist. Instead, asking these assholes to denounce the perpetrators of religion-based crime seems to be a good first step.

[–]knightsamar -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Then start from our own religion first. Let's get the fundamentalist Hindu out of us before making way for simple and easy hate-mongering Hindu fundamentalism.

For example, Savarkar who is revered today for Hindutva is conveniently forgotten for also being the one to throw the doors of temples in MH open for lower castes through dharna and agitation. Why not follow that example ? Why not do that ? Why not speak out against problems with how we practice Hinduism first ?

[–]funkymunk 8 ポイント9 ポイント

I do. I question my pandit at all instances, and he answers. This despite me having given up religion. I do not fear for my life by doing that. Furthermore, as bad as fundamentalism is in any form, the "fundie hindoo" is not out there blowing up trains and attacking our Army.

santron ko seb ke basket me naa rakho.

[–]knightsamar -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Questioning them is not enough. Where's your outrage on reddit ? Why don't we Hindus make a thread asking where is the Hindu outrage on Dalit incidents in Bihar, UP and MH ? Why don't we speak out and condemn the teenage boy involved in Nirbhaya case ? Where is that outrage ?

[–]funkymunk 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Why don't we Hindus make a thread asking where is the Hindu outrage on Dalit incidents in Bihar, UP and MH ?

Go on, make one.

Why don't we speak out and condemn the teenage boy involved in Nirbhaya case ?

There was more than adequate coverage of and outrage against this incident. Tu yaar phirse apple aur orange ko mix kar raha hai. Nirbhaya's perpetrators were not religiously motivated.

Where is that outrage ?

Here. Tu India me rehta nahi kya? Do you not stay In India?

[–]knightsamar -1 ポイント0 ポイント

There was more than adequate coverage of and outrage against this incident. Tu yaar phirse apple aur orange ko mix kar raha hai. Nirbhaya's perpetrators were not religiously motivated.

Then what makes you think that other incidents where Muslims are involved are all religiously motivated ?

[–]funkymunk 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Then what makes you think that other incidents where Muslims are involved are all religiously motivated?

Did anything that I have written in this thread insinuate your assertion at all?

[–]blues2911 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Are you blind? Theres been countless threads on all those topics.

[–]antisocialelement 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Listen, just because the perpetrators are Hindu does not mean that incidents such as Nirbhaya have any bearing to Hindu religion. Same goes with Muslims. Stop painting everything a religious color.

[–]knightsamar 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Good, thank you. Now tell this to OP and others in this thread.

[–]rsa1 5 ポイント6 ポイント

But these blood- thirsty people cannot be considered Muslims.

Indeed, they cannot even be considered true Scotsmen.

[–]DaManmohansinghIlya i laurëa ná, mirilya lá, 4 ポイント5 ポイント

70% of terrorists caught in Britain had a uni degree.

All the 9/11 suicide bombers had a uni degree.

Why, of the three Mumbai kids who joined the ISIS, 2 were engineers, their parents doctors.

The head of most jihadi orgs is run by post graduates. Why even the head of ISIS was supposed to be a brilliant student.

The claim that uneducated, brainwashed terrorists do the murderous job is wrong.

[–]IndianDude51Don't like me? Press Ctrl+Shift+W to activate Ignore Mode[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント

DISCLAIMER: please read this reply with a neutral mindset and don't take this as a personal insult to yourself

But these blood- thirsty people cannot be considered Muslims.

This statement is wrong on many levels. Your comment reminds me of people who say that terrorists or rapists are not human beings, they are animals. I'm going to say the same thing to you what i say to them.

Terrorists, murderers, rapists.. they are all human beings, just like you and me. They have the same bodies, the same minds; like you and me. They live in a society and have friends; like you and me.

And they are affected by their surroundings, like you and me.

If you are implying that their religion has nothing to do with their violent nature, its is very-very wrong. A person's religious background plays a very important part in shaping his worldviews. It cannot be discounted or brushed off. Just like a person who was born in the house of a poor taxi-driver will have a different mindset compared to a person who born to rich parents and given all the luxuries of life; so will people of different religious backgrounds.

This reminds of a quote i read- "All Muslims may not be terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims."

Please think carefully about what i have said.

[–]mavriksfan11 0 ポイント1 ポイント

How are most terrorists Muslims?

Are Naxalites muslims? Was the NKVD Muslim? We're CIA death squads in South America Muslim? We're Pol Pot's Cambodian genociders Muslim? Was Robert Mugabe a Muslim? was Charles Taylor a Muslim? Was Mobutu Sese Saiko a Muslim?

My friend, people are terrorists, people are Muslims. A person's religion affects their growth but people also affect their religions!

If a person's religion shapes their thinking and actions, then it must not do so very much. Otherwise we would not have peaceful Hindus and violent Hindus and peaceful Muslims and violent Muslims.

[–]knightsamar -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

All Muslims may not be terrorists, but most terrorists are Muslims.

All BJP fans aren't Muslim-haters, but all Muslim haters are absolutely BJP fans.

[–]murali1003The real freedom is Islam free India 7 ポイント8 ポイント

Those who kill innocents are STRICTLY not Muslims

May be you should read ur hadith, read the history books, Islam is violent throughout the history. Its your own view. Good you think like that but its not Islam its Buddhism or Jainism

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