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"main reason I believe Reddit is infiltrated by Israeli propagandists." (np.reddit.com)

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[–]Theshaguar 22 ポイント23 ポイント

Unreasonable people like Stillgrey don't help make their case one bit. I'd say I'm pro-Palestinian, but being pro-palestinian doesn't mean that you have to be anti Israeli. I subscribe to the notion that most Israelis and Palestinians (except for those Palestinians in refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, whose situation is as much those Arab country's fault as Israel's) in the region would be more than happy just to be left alone.

However, there are spoilers on both sides, who are all about hating the other people. Not the governments, the policies, or the politicians, but the people. Until people like Stillgrey move past the "Israeli tentacles of doom" theory, moderate Americans in the United States are going to keep believing the "hur-dur pro-Palestinian=anti-semitic" dialogue that some american and Israeli politicians like to push.

[–]stillgrey91 -27 ポイント-26 ポイント

Unreasonable people like Stillgrey don't help make their case one bit

It's a new Middle Eastern superhero to the rescue!

"Israeli tentacles of doom" theory

Okay. Why do you think American politicians simply cannot stop sucking Israel's dick? It's obvious US Jews are politically active, wealthy and have a lot of media control. The Israel lobby groups like AIPAC cost billions of dollars a year. Isn't the most reasonable inference here that US Jews are capable of lobbying and get results, like every other US special interest and corporate lobby group?

If Jews aren't using the Israel Lobby to get US politicians to support Israel, why the hell does the Israel Lobby exist?

[–]Theshaguar 19 ポイント20 ポイント

Here's my tip. Stop using Jews as a word to describe Israeli politicians. Jews are not Israel, and Israel doesn't represent all Jews. Furthermore, I would say the Israeli policies pushed by, as an example, AIPAC, don't even represent all Israeli views. When you lump a whole people together it makes you look foolish.

That being said, some American Jews do like Israeli policies. More importantly, neocons and evangelicals love Israeli policy. Combine the fact that conservatives like Israeli policies with that fact that democrats are afraid to anger an important electoral base that identifies with Israel and tends to vote democrat(even though I don't think the average basically secular, liberal American jew would or even should agree with Netanyahu) and it makes sense why Israel has a lot of support in the United States. It isn't some vast conspiracy of Jews controlling everything, it's more that several important electoral groups all agree on something, which is unheard of in American politics. It's something that people like Netanyahu are keenly aware of, and have tapped into, but in the end, it's just a quirk of democracy.

Edit: I forgot the lobbying part. Everyone lobbies. You wouldn't say there's some vast animal welfare conspiracy because PETA exists. Israel one of the more influential lobbies because of reasons listed above. Again, not a conspiracy.

[–]Aiolus 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I am a liberal atheist of Jewish descent.

I hate the conflict. Israel has tried for cease-fires, has offered incredibly good deals to Palestine over the years. Has provided them warnings.

Civilians are dying and it is bad, very bad. I don't know what Israel is meant to do, they can't just wait forever till Hamas gets luckier and luckier. They can't afford to operate the Iron Dome indefinitely.

However, I do know what America, Russia, China, and many other countries would do and it is worse the Israel. War is horrendous. Hamas can stop. Israel doesn't want this, it helps them in no way other then stopping Hamas.

Israel has offered a cease-fire and has offered 2 state solution, Palestine said no and often said Israel needs to be eradicated. What do you think they should do?

I by no means am happy with Israel. I do not know what option they have in the face of attack.

[–]Theshaguar 2 ポイント3 ポイント

It's tough, but you have to remember that this current conflict doesn't exist in a historical vacuum. Deals that seemed good to Palestinians now weren't considered good thirty years ago. If you asked Palestinians of today if they'd accept the lines the UN decided in 1948, I can guarantee most would. In that time there's been an increasingly powerful, radical, right wing movement in Israeli politics. Elements of this movement do believe in a greater Israel, which involves annexation of the whole West Bank. It's also important to know that elements of these groups have always acted as spoilers. Oslo died when Yitzhak Rabin was killed by a radical Israeli, and it was lucky to survive the Hebron massacre. Israel, to its credit, is a democracy, and the Likud party (and its allies) tend to get elected fairly often, enough to stop any peace deals from really going through.

This frustrates Palestinians, who see their moderates failing to make their lives better. They too vote, and many have supported groups like Hamas, that have promised to do more than just talk. It's a desperate, last attempt at gaining some leverage in the situation, because short of international support (which they kind of do), they have nothing apart from violence to change their situation.

Israel's options are simple on paper, but because of the democracy it has, hard to carry out. It needs to sit down and make a real attempt at peace. It needs to stop pandering to the hard right and make a deal that gets rid of the incessant checkpoints, detentions, land seizures, home demolitions, settlement building and economic starvation policies that have made the Palestinian people so upset. Once that happens, you'll find that groups that want to shoot rockets into Israel won't have much support.

[–]NotSquareGarden 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Well, it is worth noting that Hamas was elected based mostly off support from Gaza in 2006, a year after Israel removed its settlements from Gaza. So history has shown the Israelis that disengaging and desettling will just lead to the terrorists (like Hamas) that wish for genocide and the end of Israel altogether getting stronger.

Other things worth noting is that 40% of people in the Palestine territories believe that suicide bombings are justified and that in all of the Arab world, hatred of jews is nearly unanimous.

So basically Israel is trying to achieve peace with an enemy that wishes for the destruction of their entire people (like, Hamas literally wants jews to die). That's more difficult than just going "well whoop dee doo we're gonna remove the settlements and end the blockade and just hope that the rockets don't hit us!"

[–]Chrythes 9 ポイント10 ポイント

You are saying that Arabs are discriminated in Israel, what about these Arabs then, who all hold high posts?

[–]justiyt 5 ポイント6 ポイント

Obviously Mossad shills posing as Arabs. OPEN YOUR EYES SHEEPLE.

[–]Theshaguar 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Just because you can give a list of 8 arab-Israelis who have done well doesn't mean that there isn't massive discrimination towards Arabs. I can list 8 African Americans who were doing well in the 1930s, but it doesn't mean the United States didn't have a huge problem with race (it still does). Is it as bad for Arabs in Israel as it is for Israelis in Gaza? No.

But can Arabs buy houses anywhere they want to? No, because people and sometimes municipal governments will block sales. Arab parties have never been part of a ruling coalition, despite the fact they'd really help the labor party numbers. Most Arabs don't or won't serve in the military, which impacts their chances of getting a job later. Of those who do (Bedouin), their towns still are extremely underdeveloped. While Israeli towns have basic essentials, many Arab towns don't. Let's also remember there's a growing number of anti-Arab hate groups in Israel, as shown in this facebook page.

[–]Chrythes 0 ポイント1 ポイント

But can Arabs buy houses anywhere they want to? No, because people and sometimes municipal governments will block sales

JNF (the Jewish National Fund) do tend to discriminate to whom they sell land based on ethnicity, but this is a private company and doesn't represent how the government of Israel deals with land sales. The majority of land (93%) is controlled by the Israel Land Administration and they are obliged to lease it to Israeli citizens if requested, be they Arab, Druze, Jewish or Bedouin, they must have Israeli citizenship.

I would be interested to know in what occasions sales were blocked to Arabs.

Arab parties have never been part of a ruling coalition, despite the fact they'd really help the labor party numbers

True, but this is an issue of voting. In 2013 53% of the Arab population voted in the Knesset elections. The majority of those voted for Arab parties, but according to article, some also voted for Israeli parties. While I agree with you that the Arab population should be better represented in the Knesset, it's up to them to make it happen.

Most Arabs don't or won't serve in the military, which impacts their chances of getting a job later.

That's true, Arabs are exempted from compulsory service in the IDF. They have a choice in this matter. But the problem of finding a job for those who didn't serve is a national one. Even Israeli Jews are discriminated in the job sector if they didn't serve. I think this is an absurd issue that should be addressed.

Of those who do (Bedouin), their towns still are extremely underdeveloped

This has been changing in the last years. For example Rahat, the largest Bedouin city (and the only one) in Israel has been rapidly developing in all sectors. There are organizations that aim to incorporate the Negev Bedouins into the mainstream Israeli economy and culture, and even Harvard University are opening a campus there.