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Totally true... (i.imgur.com)

submitted by chabanaisFortis est veritas

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[–]pipechapLibertarian Conservative 44 ポイント45 ポイント

I look at people comparing the number of deaths, suggesting Israel has gone too far because they're so much more advanced than Hamas and have killed so many more civilians.

Let's just get some things straight here. Israel is one of the only countries in the middle east where Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc are able to live and practice their religion freely without being killed for their beliefs. Israel is one of the few middle eastern nations that doesn't hang gays for being gay, allows pornography, does not force women to wear tents when they go outside, allows girls to go to school just like the boys, grow up to practice what ever profession their heart desires...I could go on, but do I really need to?

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian 8 ポイント9 ポイント

I'm with you on the core idea, I think Islam is a pretty backward religion, but IDF's methods are far from sound. It's not the fact that Israel has killed many more civilians, it's that they have killed proportionately more civilians than soldiers. If you look at the Gaza conflict in 2008, about 2/3 of those killed by IDF were civilians, only 1/3 were actual militants. Not only that, but they had targeted fishing boats during their missile attacks, and even damaging schools during that time. Israel has pretty good intel on all the locations of leadership facilities in regards to Hamas forces, so why would they be firing anywhere near a school? And why did they attack residential areas? Do you think that's okay?

[–]aveygt 13 ポイント14 ポイント

because Hamas are putting their forces and weapons in residential houses and schools. IDF will call the house and send warning shots before bombing a house. It would be best if they didn't have to bomb the houses at all but I honestly don't know what else to expect of them. Hamas is shooting missiles and then hiding behind civilian men, women, children, and elderly.

IDF needs to protect itself and it knows where the military rockets are. The problem is the military rockets are in residential areas. So should IDF just say "oh well I guess we can't defend ourself then"? IMO the IDF has done everything they can to minimize civilian casualties while Hamas has done everything it can to increase civilian casualties.

[–]Warbick 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I wish I could upvote you more than once.

This is what is really going on.

[–]Bonzai88 3 ポイント4 ポイント

They just do what is necessary to survive. We would do it and so would every other country if we didn't live in the politically correct world we live in now.

Look at our war tactics in ww2 or Vietnam vs iraq/afghanistan. We lost our own guys because we had to adapt a new style of warfare that the news wouldn't eat us alive for. We have rules of engagement that even include us not being able to shoot back if we are shot at, in certain situations. This is war we are talking about. The civilian deaths in ww2 were astronomical, and that is a terrible thing, but in war that stuff happens. The only way to prevent it is to use different tactics that will get your own people killed instead.

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント

So, when Israeli forces attack a school, a school at a refugee camp that was run by the UN, killing 41 civilians and only 1 supposed militant, then lies about the numbers, that is necessary?

[–]gangrenous_ghoul 8 ポイント9 ポイント

They were storing rockets in that school braniac.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Nice.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 7 ポイント8 ポイント

When you hide among civilians, civilians will die.

[–]James_K-Polk 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Until it's your civilians and then suddenly it's wrong, right?

[–]Occupy_RULES6 3 ポイント4 ポイント

so why would they be firing anywhere near a school? And why did they attack residential areas?

Because that's where Hamas hides. You should be asking the question: why do terrorist operate from schools and residential areas. They hide by schools and in residential areas so that when they are attacked they can use that for propaganda purposes when they are attacked and make Israel look like monsters. They are tring to use the civilized nature of a 1st world nation against them. It what terrorists do.

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the Al-Fakhura incident, but it was an attack by Israeli forces on a school in the Gaza Strip. 42 people were killed, and the United Nations confirmed that 41 were civilians. If, as you say, Hamas is hiding out in these schools, why weren't there more militant casualties? Now, I don't think that the United Nations are a tool for Hamas propaganda, so I'd take their word for it. In fact, if you look at the numbers, the majority of militants have been killed in border conflicts, so the data doesn't support your rhetoric.

[–]pintman 3 ポイント4 ポイント

You are literally be fooled by Hamas and are making yourself look pretty stupid.

Even liberals ignore the fact that Hamas fires behind their children, because they have ulterior motives.

You honestly don't understand what everyone else understands. Come on now.

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

I didn't realize numbers were stupid, and like I said, this was a UN run school, and Israel was shown to have lied about the numbers. Israel knows the location of Hamas political HQ's in Lebanon and Syria, as well as the Council in Gaza. I think artillery fire on one of those would be largely more effective and less politically damaging than attacking a UN-run school. But I guess that's just Hamas fooling me.

[–]Ziggaroll 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Israel can't go around attacking soviergn nations just because they have a Hamas HQ there. Going into another nations territory and attacking a piece of land there is how you start a war. I'm sure that Israel would love to go into Syria and Lebanon and destroy tp the Hamas HQ, but they can't or they face massive backlash from the rest of the Middle East.

At this point they are just trying to protect themselves from the missiles that are dropped on their lands every single day. A rocket is launched from Gaza into Israel every 10 minutes. 2/3 of the Israeli people have been in a bomb shelter in the last week.

[–]gangrenous_ghoul 1 ポイント2 ポイント

http://www.thetower.org/0725-in-flagrant-violation-hamas-caught-storing-shooting-rockets-from-unrwa-schoo/

[–]pipechapLibertarian Conservative 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Cutting off the figurative head of any of these organizations does nothing, you and I both know that. If you don't, you didn't pay any attention to the events in the Iraq war which have lead up to this point, where we now have ISIS, which is even worse than AL Qaeda, Hamas, etc.

[–]Occupy_RULES6 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Who was that 1 person and where there other militants at that school? Why would militants be conducting operations at a school with kids there? What kind of monster surrounds themselves with children?

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian 3 ポイント4 ポイント

41 were confirmed as civilians, I don't know about the 42nd. And if it were a militant, which is not fully known, do you think it is worth killing 41 civilians to take out 1 Hamas soldier?

EDIT: I would also add to that, why did Israel also lie about the numbers?

[–]Occupy_RULES6 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Of course it's not worth it. Are you implying that Israel knew that what going to be the result and did it anyway?

Let's go with your line of logic. Israel has no regard for human life and they are willing to kill 41 innocent people to kill one. They are absolute monsters and Hamas is simply freedom fighters protecting themselves. Why would you knowingly set up militant operations around innocent people if you know that those monsters are willing to kill everyone around you? Isn't Hamas complicit in those deaths if that's where they are conducting operations?

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian 2 ポイント3 ポイント

I didn't say Hamas were freedom fighters, and I didn't say Israel were monsters. Your entire argument is a massive strawman. Hamas's prime political HQ's in Syria and Lebanon are known, as well as their prime military bases in Gaza, so why not send artillery fire on those, an act much more crippling than an attack on a UN-run school? And why did they lie about the numbers? Do you really think a country which is shown to be capable to dismantle an entire nuclear facility in Iran with a computer worm is incapable of shutting down a tunnel or weapons network without blowing up a neighborhood or school?

[–]Occupy_RULES6 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Alright then, please tell me why did Israel bomb a UN school?

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I don't know, like I said, Israeli's are capable of retrieving any weapons stored in residential areas without artillery fire, to think otherwise is insulting to the state of Israel.

[–]gangrenous_ghoul -1 ポイント0 ポイント

http://www.thetower.org/0725-in-flagrant-violation-hamas-caught-storing-shooting-rockets-from-unrwa-schoo/

[–]gangrenous_ghoul -1 ポイント0 ポイント

http://www.thetower.org/0725-in-flagrant-violation-hamas-caught-storing-shooting-rockets-from-unrwa-schoo/

[–]gangrenous_ghoul -1 ポイント0 ポイント

http://www.thetower.org/0725-in-flagrant-violation-hamas-caught-storing-shooting-rockets-from-unrwa-schoo/

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian 2 ポイント3 ポイント

So a government which is capable of shutting down a nuclear facility in Iran remotely, is incapable of retrieving rockets from a refugee camp. Artillery fire was the only option. Sounds like you put a lot of stock in the capabilities of the Israeli military. Israel isn't a third world country, they're pretty technologically advanced, brainiac.

[–]gangrenous_ghoul 1 ポイント2 ポイント

You do realize that the Hamas Interior Ministry gave a direct order to Gaza civilians telling them to stay in their homes when Israeli military makes them aware of impending air/artillery strikes, right?

Hamas tells them that Israeli warnings are actually "psychological warfare" meant to confuse them. Israeli military/civilian coordinators literally call their homes and tell them when they are going to bomb them.

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian 2 ポイント3 ポイント

You do realize that most of these casualties were just outside the school, and that, again, the IDF lied about the numbers. Additionally IDF had changed its story from saying that Hamas soldiers were in the school, to saying they were "next to it"?

[–]gangrenous_ghoul 0 ポイント1 ポイント

So we both agree that Hamas is keeping civilians from leaving areas that Israel is targetting even with prior warning?

[–]TheKingBeyondTheWallLibertarian 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Well, yes I would say that such a thing is perfectly reasonable. Hamas is classified as a terrorist organization.

[–]pipechapLibertarian Conservative 0 ポイント1 ポイント

so why would they be firing anywhere near a school? And why did they attack residential areas? Do you think that's okay?

Last I checked Hamas doesn't have military bases, they operate out of residential areas because they have no where else to operate, and they love the cover of civilians so they have something to use against the Israelis and plead to the west with.

[–]papermageling 0 ポイント1 ポイント

It's actually really hard to tell what percentage of the Palestinians killed are civilians vs militants, as you don't exactly find people in Hamas uniform. The current estimates are from the UN, but given the UN's track record with Israel...

Here's an article, and here's another report that says:

Notably, only about 12 percent of the total fatalities are female, though females make up half the population. Also, the median age of Gazans is reported to be around 15. Males under 15 make up just 13 percent of the total fatalities even though they represent half of all males in the Gaza Strip.

The reports I cited get their numbers from Al-jazeera, so, if anything, they probably skew to higher death rates of women and children than anything.

It's not evidence, but it does make one suspect that the UN numbers are off. It's not something we'll get confirmation on soon, if ever though.

[–]ValhallaOrBust 0 ポイント1 ポイント

This completely describes my feelings on the situation. And then I saw your 'libertarian' tag next to your sn, solidifying my beliefs. I'm glad to see fellow libertarians on here.

-USAF ATC Libertarian.

[–]Versace_Tears -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Israel is not a nice society. Israeli culture is one of racism and hatred, and the Israeli system is an apartheid one. It doesn't matter how much "better" it is than its neighbors, so long as it is a fundamentally bad place to support.

[–]pintman -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

The liberal narrative is always about power or money. If you have it, you are evil, if you don't, you are good.

It can be applied to any situation and explains the bizarre alliances the left always drums up, often in direct contrast to their bullshit stated beliefs.

[–]hello_fruit -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

Israel is one of the few middle eastern nations that doesn't hang gays for being gay, allows pornography, does not force women to wear tents when they go outside, allows girls to go to school just like the boys, grow up to practice what ever profession their heart desires...I could go on, but do I really need to?

I think Israel has many things going for it, such as democracy, science, technology, nobel laureats etc etc, but those arguments you made aren't particularly impressive. Most countries in the regions aren't as bad as you make them out to be.

[–]Zackcid -5 ポイント-4 ポイント

You don't really know what you're talking about, but you like to make it seem like you do.

Can you tell me with full confidence that 100% of what you wrote is accurate?

[–]pipechapLibertarian Conservative 2 ポイント3 ポイント

You don't really know what you're talking about, but you like to make it seem like you do.

Feel free to respond with an actual counter argument if you think I'm wrong.

Seeing as how you spend quite a lot of time on /r/drugs, /r/trees, /r/silkroad, I don't think you really possess the integrity to actually debate me.

[–]pipechapLibertarian Conservative 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Hey in case you actually ever want to reply, I've got a video that you should watch, this guy makes my case better than I ever could. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg1IVjnRuXk

[–]MoosPalangHope and Change 17 ポイント18 ポイント

Go over to the liberal subreddits and you will see the same image with the sides flipped over. The reality is that both sides are being reported on but some news stations pay more attention to one side over the other. CBC, BBC, and most American channels are favor Israel more, whilst RT and Al Jezeera favor Palestine more. Besides, people notice opposing opinions more so than favoring opinions on TV.

[–]stevenp23 2 ポイント3 ポイント

http://imgur.com/rUI6Ela just curious how accurate is this info-graph?

[–]papermageling -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Okay, so the first one has some obvious flaws. Namely, that the land was controlled by the Ottoman Empire and then the British. The land was not controlled by Palestinians. Some of the land was privately owned by Jews, some by Palestinians. Much of it was owned only by the government.

The second image is the 1947 partition plan. Israel accepted it, the Palestinians and other Arabs rejected it, and they immediately all went to war. So, calling the yellow pictured there as Palestinian is a bit of a stretch, as the Palestinians never accepted the land.

In the third map, I'm assuming it was right before the six day war. Egypt controlled Gaza and Jordan controlled the West Bank. After the Six Day war, Israel controlled Gaza, the West Bank, the Sinai peninsula (since traded back to Egypt for peace) and the Golan heights.

Since 1993, Gaza has been under Palestinian control, and since 2005, Israel has really been out of it. That hasn't been going so well, so we'll see what happens.

The 4th map shows in the West Bank, areas which Israel gave to the Palestinians in 1993 to administrate. As you can probably guess, the land on the Israeli side of the wall (including Jerusalem and its surroundings) Israel intends to keep. I'll also note that the wall has really cut down on suicide bombings (I've heard from Israelis that there was a time when if you were Israeli, you knew someone who had been murdered by a suicide bomber, and you lived in daily fear that your bus would be bombed). The other areas on the Palestinian side of the wall are areas which Israel is more willing to negotiate about. But, as you might expect, they are very strategic areas for self defense.

[–]stevenp23 0 ポイント1 ポイント

ok thats good to know. From me i have friends and family that are israeli and palestinian so i always try to get a perspective from someone who is neither because both sides have biased views. Another thing i have heard about is construction on the west bank and i do not know much about it.

[–]apackofmonkeys 9 ポイント10 ポイント

It is maddening. The ACTUAL title of a CNN story the other day was, and I quote: "Israel breaks ceasefire, resumes missile strikes" then the subtitle was "Strikes resumed in response to more rocket attacks from Hamas". So the huge blaring font size 60 title states Israel violated it, then the tiny subtitle admits that Hamas fired first. Insane.

[–]zerohistory 2 ポイント3 ポイント

I'm interested in real, non-propagandized or shifted or tampered, data on this.
But also the level of the attack. Is this rocket for rocket? rocks for bullets?

[–]bluehairedbeaver -1 ポイント0 ポイント

I believe both sides have been firing rockets at one another. However, Israel has the Iron Dome, which is a defense measure that can shoot down those rockets. It isn't always effective, but it definitely tips the scales.

[–]imfromcaLazy 7 ポイント8 ポイント

its some of the most hypocritical shit. if you throw rocks at my house all day and break windows for months and then i destroy your shitty car you cant be mad. you asked for it. dont mess with a bull if you cant handle the horns

[–]gthegreatest 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Yea but the situation is more like I put you in a huge prison and you throw rocks at the fence so I shoot some of your family and blow up your house.

[–]imfromcaLazy 4 ポイント5 ポイント

its not that the Israelis put them there. when ww2 ended the allies decided Palestinian land was the place to put them. not get mad at the relocated, rather the people who relocated them. so its more like the jews were put there and then the Palestinians got mad at them for being there. sure they dont want them there but what are the israelis to do? get up and go where? the palestinians have much more freedom to go throughout the middle east and if they really wanted peace and to work something out, hamas wouldnt be throwing rockets over and the palestinians would be against hamas for causing Israel to shoot back at them

[–]batmanmilktruck 2 ポイント3 ポイント

I'm fairly certain you've never read about Israel's history.

[–]imfromcaLazy 0 ポイント1 ポイント

and what exactly makes you say that?

[–]DCMurphy -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

I'm fairly certain you haven't read a whole lot about Germany's history.

Israel has employed a number of tactics that have parallels to pre-WW2 Germany, although they have yet to break the barrier of genocide.

It isn't the Israeli people who commit the atrocities, it is the Israeli government. A case of few people being extreme and putting a bad image forward; the same could be said of Hamas.

[–]imfromcaLazy 0 ポイント1 ポイント

israeli government against hamas. plane and simple

[–]connor_lingus 2 ポイント3 ポイント

What should the Israelis do? How about not doing a few things with american backing and money? Like, how about not illegally settling beyond the borders of land already taken by force? How about not bulldozing houses, burning farms and evicting Palestinians from Palestinian land? How about allowing freedom of movement? All as an american proxy. Do we really want to pay for this 'beacon of hope in the middle east'?

[–]imfromcaLazy 0 ポイント1 ポイント

honestly, i feel we should stay out of it completely. it is not our country. we understand so little of the two cultures, and just because you know about jews doesnt mean you know about Israel or palestinian culture. we should let them figure it out completely on their own. until we completely understand everything about both sides we should stay out of it

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Do we really want to pay for this 'beacon of hope in the middle east'?

Absolutely we do.

If they were allowed to live in peace everybody would be fine.

[–]RideMammoth 1 ポイント2 ポイント

How about allowing for the creation of an Arab state, like the allies promised after WW1?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/syria/history-ww1.htm

No, instead let's keep the arbitrary borders that put 2-3 different ethnic groups in each country to ensure endless unrest.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

There are plenty of "Arab" states. But Persians would object to being lumped in with Afghans, for example.

[–]bluefootedpig 0 ポイント1 ポイント

There are plenty of Jewish states, why does Israel need to exist?

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

List them.

[–]Phuqued 0 ポイント1 ポイント

its not that the Israelis put them there. when ww2 ended the allies decided Palestinian land was the place to put them. not get mad at the relocated, rather the people who relocated them.

This is a common misconception. Jews started immigrating back to Palestinian in the late 1800's / very beginning of the 1900's, then you have WW1 in which the Ottoman empire dissolves, leaving the lands of Palestine under foreign governance. One thing to note is that the Jews were buying land from Arab land owners and forming communities peacefully in Palestine during all of this. But as more and more Jews came to Palestine, and with a foreign power governing them, the Palestinians grew more agitated and by the mid 1920's or so you start having Arab protests turning violent.

And my recollection is probably not doing this justice, but there is a lot of history here to consider. I personally don't find history all that useful in understanding the Israel / Palestine conflict simply because who did what to whom first or who is more justified because of what actions lose significance when you take in the whole picture of the thing.

[–]Bonzai88 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

I don't understand why people say Israel has no right there? At what point in history did we decide okay that's all the time you get, if you get land from now on, it is not okay? So is it acceptable for the native Americans to start roaming the USA and attacking? What about any other country that used to be inhabited by someone else? I just dont get why Israel doesn't belong in that land, but every other nation in the world who has taken land does belong in their land.

[–]gthegreatest 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Because we are supposed to be last that point you are correct that time has supposedly past and if some other country starts a war of conquest America would presumably step in, but this wasn't even a war of conquest that's what makes it special. Your other comments are red herrings no one from when Indians controlled America is still alive. The same cannot be said for Palestine.

[–]legalizehazing 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Thank you! I'm so sick of all the damn gaza propaganda

[–]gangrenous_ghoul 0 ポイント1 ポイント

To all you people saying that we conservatives live in a bubble.

/r/conservative subscribers deal with alternate views every day.

/r/politics is liberal...

/r/worldnews is liberal...

Reddit is liberal...

We have to listen to liberal views in music on the way to work and school

We are taught by liberal teachers and professors at school

We go home and have watch TV shows that, if they have any angle at all, its a liberal one.

Then we have to flip through 5 out of 6 news channels that are unabashedly liberal in their reporting.

"We cannot and will not handle alternate viewpoints"

???

Get real dude.

[–]b_deam 0 ポイント1 ポイント

That was possibly one of the best comments I have seen on here.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S,M] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Thank you.

[–]CalmDownOverThereAnarcho-Capitalistist Libertarian Conservative Thing 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Oh yeah Israel is TOTALLY not at fault at ALL... /s Seriously both sides have committed horrible atrocities and to pick a side ,in my opinion, is disgusting. Edit: yeah downvote me /r/conservative. I used to think this was a place to openly discuss political events. Nope turns out this subreddit is headed exactly where /r/politics is.

[–]atomic1fireReagan Conservative 33 ポイント34 ポイント

This is like saying picking a side during ww2 is disgusting because both sides commited attrocities, even though one side is clearly hitler.

Except in this case one party is a group of holocaust deniers who fire rockets from civilian areas so that isreal can't shoot back, and that most countries agree is clearly a terrorist group besides china, who has their own bad human rights record.

Hamas is a bunch of Anti-Semitic terrorists who hide behind civilians so that Israel can't retaliate without accidentally killing civilians.

They also blame both World wars on the "Zionists" because clearly the Jews are like the illuminati or something.

[–]GrandDragonWizard 7 ポイント8 ポイント

This is like saying picking a side during ww2 is disgusting because both sides commited attrocities, even though one side is clearly hitler.

Except that the Soviets (our allies) were fucking terrible---especially in what they did to the Polish (also our allies). The world would have been better off had Germany and the Soviets fought each other to the death.

[–]atomic1fireReagan Conservative 1 ポイント2 ポイント

We weren't even that close with the soviets, after ww2 we were constantly on the verge of nuclear war with them.

Why do you think the US was so (and probably still is) blatantly anti communist.

I think the entire concept of being allied with russia at the time consisted of

Hitler attacked Russia despite them initially being sort of allied.

Russia wanted revenge so they joined with the dirty capitalists to stop hitler.

Nobody really wanted russia to have germany besides russia, so they split one half into a super capitalist area and the other into a communist area, and put the berlin wall between it.

East germany was crap and west germany was capitalist and sufficiently less crap.

[–]TheoreticalFunk 0 ポイント1 ポイント

"even though one side is clearly Hitler"

Well, one side is practicing apartheid against the other. One side is causing a diaspora against the other. I wouldn't so far as calling them Nazis, but they are clearly in the wrong as far as human rights is concerned. Don't take my word for it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolutions_concerning_Israel_and_Palestine

[–]pipechapLibertarian Conservative 12 ポイント13 ポイント

yeah downvote me /r/conservative[1] . I used to think this was a place to openly discuss political events. Nope turns out this subreddit is headed exactly where /r/politics[2] is.

Well if you care more about imaginary internet points than making your superior point to everyone, I'd say your priorities aren't in order.

[–]bluehairedbeaver 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Those internet points are capable of hiding his point if you and yours so choose. I'd say it's pretty reasonable to bring up downvotes when your input is being actively brushed under a rug because /r/conservative cannot and will not handle alternative viewpoints.

[–]gangrenous_ghoul -1 ポイント0 ポイント

/r/conservative subscribers deal with alternate views every day.

/r/politics is liberal...

/r/worldnews is liberal...

Reddit is liberal...

They listen to liberal views in music on the way to work and school

They are taught by liberal teachers and professors at school

They go home and watch TV shows that more often than not have a liberal spin

Then they have to flip through 5 out of 6 news channels that are unabashedly liberal in their reporting.

"We can handle alternate viewpoints"

???

Get real dude.

[–]CalmDownOverThereAnarcho-Capitalistist Libertarian Conservative Thing 0 ポイント1 ポイント

When did I say they were more important? Down voting is more than just points. It invalidates peoples opinions by dropping them to the bottom of the discussion.

[–]pipechapLibertarian Conservative -1 ポイント0 ポイント

So what you're saying is when someone is downvoted, that makes them wrong?

[–]CalmDownOverThereAnarcho-Capitalistist Libertarian Conservative Thing 0 ポイント1 ポイント

No.

[–]acerusso 11 ポイント12 ポイント

One side commits atrocities while the other responds in defense. This middle of the road shit is for people who want to seem above everything. One side uses civilians as shields and fires into enemy civilian territory. They swear the destruction of an entire nation for racist and religious reasons. All this while Israel has freedom of worship, individual rights, and western values. Creating settlements is not the same attempted murder. If we woke up tomorrow and israel controlled all of palestine no civilian would be harmed and the people would be free to live as they wished. However, if we woke up tomorrow and palestine had overthrown israel we would witness mass genocide. There is no question who to back in this fight if you believe in individual rights and education. Jews were kept from their holy sites for centuries because of middle eastern bigotry yet muslims are welcome in israel.

[–]Astrixtc 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Actually, I think this black and white issue shit is for people who are too lazy to dig into the issue and think about it. While I think Hamas is in the wrong, I don't give Israel a pass either. They may not have fired rockets into civilian areas, but they aren't above cutting off the food and water supplies to the civilian population.

The last twenty years have resembled a grade school bully (Israel) who picks on a younger kid (Palestine) every day. The bully won't throw the first punch, but they'll take their stuff and verbally abuse them day after day. It's no surprise when the little kid hits their limit and throws a punch.

[–]bluehairedbeaver 5 ポイント6 ポイント

Am I in wonderland? I just wandered into this sub to get a look at the atmosphere and it's crazy how the thoughtful posts, the ones that acknowledge the grey-scale of the world, are the ones being downvoted.

This is a strange place.

[–]Astrixtc 2 ポイント3 ポイント

It is. I find that /r/Republican is more tolerant of grey-scale than /r/Conservative, and I personally find the content better, but this sub is more active.

[–]CalmDownOverThereAnarcho-Capitalistist Libertarian Conservative Thing 0 ポイント1 ポイント

This is how I feel. Thank you for better explaining this perspective.

[–]acerusso 0 ポイント1 ポイント

They gave them free reign when they pulled out in 2005. Hamas murdered the people in charge and swore death on israel. At which point israel blockaded the people that would import weapons to carry out that threat. Israel promotes 2 state solution, hamas does not. Israel has freedom of religion, hamas does not. Israel is a nation with the highest doctoral rate of any citizenry in the world, hamas just runs children education programs on how to die as a martyr for the cause. There is no question who to back. The problem is the international community not allowing a nation to win.

[–]pipechapLibertarian Conservative -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

But but but but....Israel has tanks! and jews did 9/11! /s

[–]Have_A_Nice_FallGoldwater Conservative 1 ポイント2 ポイント

There is a difference between "Hamas" and Palestinians. Hamas is a known extremist terrorist group that hides behind the Palestinians to do it's dirty work.

If Hamas wasn't so surrounded by Palestinian innocents, I can guarantee you that Hamas would have been annihilated a long time ago.

It's a rough situation, but if you need the Iron Dome to simply exist, that's saying something about your opposition.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

"Hamas" got elected by the people.

[–]Have_A_Nice_FallGoldwater Conservative -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

This is true. However, like most radical organizations, I would imagine not everyone supports their radicalism.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

What you find "radical" and what your average Palestinian finds "radical" are likely different.

[–]Have_A_Nice_FallGoldwater Conservative 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I would guess not all people being put on rooftops as shields are particularly thrilled with Hamas...

I could be wrong though.

Just because people are elected doesn't necessarily mean the entire voting populace likes their actions. I sympathize for the innocents, not the militants.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

More are than aren't or Hamas wouldn't be in power.

[–]EverlovinConstitutionalist 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Your moral equivalency stance will lead you to form some pretty warped ideologies over time if you don't understand why its a fallacy.

"Why should we throw child molesters in jail, you don't know if you would be any better if you grew up in the home they did".

"Yeah that American built market was hit by a suicide bomber, can't blame the Iraqis though, what would you do if they were in your homeland."

"Palestinians were dancing in the streets on 911? Well you can't blame them after the way we supported Israel."

[–]pintman -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

You must be morally bankrupt to honestly believe that the situation is equal.

If the Palestinians had the opportunity, they would kill everyone in Israel.

If Israel had their same moral compass, there would be no more Palestinians.

[–]CalmDownOverThereAnarcho-Capitalistist Libertarian Conservative Thing 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I don't feel it's equal. I never said that. I simply feel that I cannot support either side because of the horrendous things they have done.

[–]BLA5PHEMY 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Articles and comment sections like this one make me ( a conservatively leaning libertarian ) think about unsubscribing from this subreddit.

Israel is the aggressor and has clear military supremacy. If you don't believe me... How about one on the smartest men in the world Stephen Hawking? http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/09/stephen-hawking-palestinian-boycott-israel-history

Please explain to me how Zionism is a conservative value. In my opinion, this sort of branding of conservatism is what is making young Americans turn their backs on real conservative values.

[–]TheOccasionalTachyonModerate Conservative 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Stephen Hawking is an authority on physics, not Middle-Eastern geopolitics. He has no more claim to expertise on this issue than any other armchair commentator.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント

He has no more claim to expertise on this issue than any other armchair wheelchair commentator.

[–]heretheycomenow 0 ポイント1 ポイント

haha appealing to authority alright. Henry Kissinger was a mastermind at diplomacy and crafting foreign policy. Does that mean he was also a god at physics? No. Stop circlejerking about science dude. Just cause he's obviously a very intelligent man does not mean he automatically understands history.

Israel is the aggressor...yes of course. I forgot Israel staged a false flag and killed 3 of it's own children. My b. I also forgot that they launched 100 rockets into their own state!!1

Oh and I totally forgot that they rejected a ceasefire deal as well!

[–]BLA5PHEMY 0 ポイント1 ポイント

If Stephen Hawking isn't good enough for you... How about Albert Einstein? A Jew who opposed the creation of Israel and feared severe violence against the Palestinian people?

http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/01/einstein-on-palestine-and-zionism/

[–]bluehairedbeaver -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

Appropriate username.

Now, if you would, please head up to the stake. Watch your step over the firewood.

[–]BLA5PHEMY -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Brushing off two of modern histories greatest minds opinion's with schoolyard analogies and jokes... You guys are something special.

Stay classy /r/conservative

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

They're not the greatest minds about foreign affairs.

[–]glennflynn 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Not really sure why Americans feel the absolute need to pick one side over the other.

I think they are both morally repulsive. Hamas uses Palestinian children as meat shields, and the IDF will happily slaughter them. Neither of them want a ceasefire, they hate each other. When one calls for a ceasefire, the other one denies, and that happens on both sides.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント

the IDF will happily slaughter them.

Happily?

Source?

Israel takes out the bad guys. If those bad guys hide around civilians, that's not their fault. If they refuse to strike them it rewards that behavior, encouraging it more.

[–]glennflynn 0 ポイント1 ポイント

If violent criminals or terrorists are held up in a civilian area here in the US, should the police take action that results in the casualties consisting of 80% civilians?

If you think yes, then I can't possibly agree with you on anything, because we heavily disagree on moral grounds.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

What is immoral is to support policies that encourage terrorism that results in more hostages being taken in the future resulting in many more deaths.

It is of no importance to me whether you agree with me about anything.

[–]NorthBlizzard 1 ポイント2 ポイント

If you poke a bear long enough, the bear will attack. And if you only have a stick to defend yourself, maybe next time, don't poke the bear.

[–]moonsugaLibertarian Conservative -5 ポイント-4 ポイント

right.. how many israelis died in this last one?

[–]DerJawsh 14 ポイント15 ポイント

This is because Israel has systems in place to counter the Palestinian rockets, if you recall, last year, Hamas fired 300 rockets at Israel over the course of a few weeks. However, are they just going to sit there and waste all those resources (and also possibly let rockets through) to intercept them? No. Israel targets their weapon caches and facilities, they even call the buildings beforehand warning of the attack to allow all people to escape. The Israeli target military targets but Hamas likes to station themselves inside civillian areas, on the contrary, Hamas is just firing rockets hoping to kill whatever Israeli's they can.

[–]baldyloxLibertarian Conservative 8 ポイント9 ポイント

More importantly, Hamas is trying to get as many women and children on their side killed as possible to propagandize that further.

[–]Deep__ThoughtLibertarian Conservative 0 ポイント1 ポイント

And remember those Iron Dome interceptor rockets are expensive. Something like $200,000 each

[–]BLA5PHEMY 3 ポイント4 ポイント

I'm not supporting Hamas' tactics but, when being attacked by a much stronger military force the only real option is gorilla tactics. The Palestinians are fighting for what they believe to be their home land. If they were to attempt traditional warfare the Israelies would wipe them out. Should we really expect them to just pack up and leave?

Let the downvotes continue... /sigh

[–]DerJawsh 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Guerrilla tactics does not include hiding within civilians to use them as a shield. They also have another reason for doing this and it's because when an Israeli missile strike kills a woman or a child, they can advertise it to the world when in reality, it's because they set up their facilities in civilian buildings/areas. Guerrilla tactics does not even include firing rockets at random. Guerrilla tactics is using small groups of highly mobile individuals to perform small attacks to whittle away at a much larger force. Usually, this is done by using ambush tactics, then running away once you've caused damage.

[–]BLA5PHEMY 1 ポイント2 ポイント

So how do you think the Palestinians should defend against the Israel invasion within the small confines of gaza? If a rebel/defender has a family he lives with is he using them as a human shield? Should he abandon his family? I don't think the situation is as black and white as you are assuming.

[–]papermageling 0 ポイント1 ポイント

... Israel doesn't want Gaza.

[–]rjohnson99 0 ポイント1 ポイント

You're right...the Palestinians should go back to suicide bombing Israeli civilians on buses once or twice a week.

[–]Rocktobot 4 ポイント5 ポイント

last i heard it was 270+ Palestinian fatalities to uh...1, Israeli fatality.

[–]combatmedic82 7 ポイント8 ポイント

If Mexico hit us, I would demand the same ratio... nay, a better ratio!

[–]Rocktobot 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I'm assuming our idea of the word 'better' in this context differ drastically.

[–]connor_lingus 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Downvoted for saying less death is better than more death! When I kill someone on my video game I get points, so killing foreigners is good right? /s

[–]Rocktobot 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Only so long as their skin color is a different color then my own.

[–]combatmedic82 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Based on the context of your comments, almost certainly. Unless of course, you and your family were part of that inverse ratio... by all means, sacrifice away!

[–]RideMammoth 0 ポイント1 ポイント

How's that whole "Eye for an eye" saying go?

[–]BLA5PHEMY -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Do you count the Mexican drug cartels supported/allowed by the Mexican government which is similar to Hamas? If so... I think you would be very disappointed. We decided not to go in and wipe them out but to provide them with more guns!

[–]moonsugaLibertarian Conservative 0 ポイント1 ポイント

that's what im saying

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[–]RideMammoth -1 ポイント0 ポイント

This is the same strategy any militarily inferior force takes. You can't beat the USA or Israel in an outright war, so you tax their resources. If I can shoot a $5000 missile that costs you $200,000 to shoot down, it's a success.

Remember Charlie Wilson's war? We spent money and gave the mujahideen supplies. The soviets then had to spend 10x that amount to fight the mujahideen. The excess cost of the fight is a main reason the soviets left Afghanistan.

The Taliban did the same thing. The could use their relatively minimal resources to force the USA to spend billions of dollars to fight.

Hamas clearly sees that their missile attacks aren't killing Israelis. If they know that, they must have another motivation for firing rockets. It isn't about killing Israelis - it's about costing them $$.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Remember Charlie Wilson's war?

That movie was totally inaccurate but I get your point.

Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people and will sacrifice as many as necessary for as long as is necessary to win.

Useful Idiots help them.

[–]RideMammoth 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I was actually basing it off the book. Saying "charlie wilsons war" is easier than explaining that I am talking about the cold war era US proxy war in Afghanistan.

[–]chabanaisFortis est veritas[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Charlie Wilson's War.