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serious replies onlyRedditors who work in Human Resources, what red flags on a resume or cover letter will prevent a candidate from getting a call back? [serious] (self.AskReddit)

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[–]dodobirdsNOW 55 ポイント56 ポイント

....That religion one is a bit upsetting. It sounds like the applicant is just being specific about what church he/she works for and what specifically he/she does there which may or may not be relevant to the position applied for. A youth group leader has to do a lot of clerical organization, fundraising, paperwork, etc. depending on the size of church and group. Can you really say from a resume that such and such candidate is a religious nut?

[–]Quock 51 ポイント52 ポイント

They were just giving an example, but I know what they mean. I have friends that put "reading the bible", "praying", and "worshiping god" on their resumes, which is way over the top. I spent 5 years on a church band, and I just put "5 year member on a church band", "mentor to youth in church community", and stuff like that. I totally get what they mean here.

[–]dodobirdsNOW 11 ポイント12 ポイント

Okay, that is a MUCH different thing from what was given as an example and much more understandable. It still makes me feel a bit icky because it hovers kinda close to religious discrimination, but I can understand that a lot better.

[–]Jchamberlainhome 45 ポイント46 ポイント

I also saw one that said "loving father to my pride and joy [insert name of kid here]" Totally irrelevant and showed lack of judgement. In the trash it went.

[–]originaljackster 0 ポイント1 ポイント

But if I can handle a screaming child surely I can handle our customers as well, right? See, the skills are transferable. :-P

[–]Jchamberlainhome 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Will you scold them and give them a time out?

[–]Watchoutrobotattack 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Spanking is certainly a good skill to have as a male stripper

[–]originaljackster 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Having worked in customer service I've definitely come across people that needed a time out.

[–]nessn12 23 ポイント24 ポイント

If you want to judged based on the merits of your professionalism, then be professional about what you put on your résumé, not personal. What if the person looking at it is an asshole atheist, Muslim, Mormon, scientologist, or catholic and has a personal bias, guess what, you just left yourself open to be judged based on info you chose to give. Be professional, be brief, and hopefully you get a job.

[–]PM_ME_YOUR_LIBRARY 0 ポイント1 ポイント

The issue is with being specific. Going into that level of detail is not appropriate in the workplace no matter what faith you are. Your faith is not relevant in the workplace, and failing to keep it out of the workplace will not go well for anyone. If it's discrimination in any way it's against people who haven't been coached to know when one's religious beliefs should be talked about and when they shouldn't.

[–]thenichi 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Which is funny because the whole point is to avoid religious discrimination. Since discriminating on the basis of religion is illegal, it's easier to just ignore anyone who brings it up.

[–]Slimpikin 185 ポイント186 ポイント

Yep. In today's workplace, you have the right to practice your religion but everyone else has the right to be free from religious prosyliting. A guy who says he's involved with 'a' church is not ever going to be a problem, and won't be trying to convert people at coffee time, do a drive by baptism at lunch, or chastize a fellow worker for living with her boyfriend without being married.

Someone who doesn't have the sense to know not to put specific church affiliation on his resume probably thinks that it's a great thing for him to be involved with that church, and will have no trouble sharing his views on religion in the staff room.

Remember, a resume is a snapshot and a ton of judgements are made based on what you write or don't write. That's why you should always put your best foot forward.

Is it a guarantee that the guy will be trouble? Not at all. But if I have 100 resumes that are more or less equal, he's not going to make the cut based on that alone.

[–]ccoastmike 49 ポイント50 ポイント

Thank you Mr. HR Person for keeping crazy religious people out of the work place. Does it extend to crazy political people too? I'm hoping that if someone lists their involvement with <insert radical left/right/conservative/green/communist political party> that they would be tossed as well?

[–]Slimpikin 55 ポイント56 ポイント

Of course. 'Active in Provincial Politics' is just fine. 'Conservative Party Bagman', on the other hand, will get your resume tossed in the trash.

[–]SuperstarTinsanity 32 ポイント33 ポイント

That's kind of frustrating, do you mind weighing on my point of view? In short I list my church involvement and present them as any job accomplishments.

First I list my outside activities in church not as an advertisement of my religious affiliation, but because these roles and responsibilities are actual work that requires commitment, I'm writing it and treating it as another job experience.

Second, I specifically put in names of the places I was affiliated at because that allows the viewer an opportunity to verify my claims. For other professional experiences I wouldn't just write a list of accomplishments and experiences and then simply writing "A bank, 2011-2014".

I am not trying to advertise or preach religion on my resume or in the workplace but I feel my roles involved helpful or relevant skills and want to be able to backup my claims, by specifically citing where these things occurred.

I'm not arguing against your way of doing things, but was wondering how you would respond after seeing another view. Or if you can offer any helpful advice for my future job searches. Thanks!

EDIT: I should include that I am/was relatively young in my career. I totally understand if there are BETTER professional experiences in the future I can "phase out" these points. Not because I'm less affiliated with a church, but because I have more to tell about my professional skills without it involving church.

[–]Slimpikin 72 ポイント73 ポイント

If it was a paying job at a church, that's one thing. If you put specifics under 'Hobbies and Other Interests', that's where I flag it.

In the workplace, there are certain things that I am not permitted to use when deciding to hire you or not. Those are the things that I always advise people to avoid putting on a resume. You should exercise a great deal of care in listing any group or organization that could identify your religion, political affiliation, sexual orientation, marital status, or ethnic or cultural affiliation.

If it's a job and you are pointing out transferable skills, may as well put it on your resume since if the HR folks are that dead set against your particular church that they wouldn't hire you because of it, you probably don't want to work there anyways.

If it's a hobby, my suggestion is to always be circumspect and don't list specific groups.

[–]bigpoppawood 16 ポイント17 ポイント

So if one were to list a specific church under a "volunteer work"-type section, it would be fine? If I read a resume that stated that a potential employee did lots of charitable labor for "my church" I would immediately call bullshit. I would want the name of the church and a phone number for reference.

[–]emote_control 19 ポイント20 ポイント

I think a good rule of thumb is to provide specifics if the employer needs to know them. So if it's volunteer work with a particular church, you could list it in the same format as an employment line. Volunteered at x organization, from 2xxx to 2xxx, performing relevant tasks x, y, and z. Or, if you're not trying to lean heavily on your volunteering experience, just put that you volunteered with your local church.

What this guy is getting at is that if you are providing more information than necessary, the information has to imply a reason for it to be there. If your volunteer information is detailed, it should be details that tell the employer something they're going to want to know about the work you did. What did you do? Was it recent? What skills did it require? Who would I contact to verify this if I want to?

If you're just saying "I go to this particular church", it implies that you think it's important to state what church you're affiliated with, and that has more priority than giving descriptive information about the work you did. The latter may be useful for the employer to know. The former absolutely is not.

[–]cohrt 22 ポイント23 ポイント

If you put specifics under 'Hobbies and Other Interests',

who has room for that on a resume?

[–]Mikey1ee7 35 ポイント36 ポイント

Young people with little work experience.

[–]shakewell 16 ポイント17 ポイント

Pssh, ha! not getting a job anyway, don't you know you need at least 5 years of experience for that entry level job?

[–]cscottaxp 1 ポイント2 ポイント

This is actually an interesting topic to mention. Since entering the "office" world, I've learned this means something VERY different from what it says.

5 years of experience does NOT mean you necessarily need an ACTUAL 5 years of experience. If you can show proficiency in most of the other job skills they are looking for, you are still better than most candidates.

Think about who actually applies to these jobs. Compare yourself to them. You don't have someone with 5 years of actual experience applying to a $40k job. You have entry-level people. The company WILL pass over that experience requirement if they find someone proficient in most of the other skills and if they feel the person is trainable.

Look at a list of skills more like a "weighted scale" rather than a list of requirements. 5 years would be nice, but there's a billion other things on that list you can do. So apply anyway. You have a decent shot.

[–]x86_64Ubuntu 0 ポイント1 ポイント

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[–]jizzmonkey69 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I just turned 21 and am doing my first internship, thank God I won't ever have room for such a section.

[–]Throwaway4730 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Unless it doesn't work out.

[–]jizzmonkey69 [score hidden]

I won't have room for such a section regardless of if this works out or not.

[–]Throwaway4730 [score hidden]

Employers won't care about any high school jobs. Burger King, retail, all those starter jobs don't mean much when you are talking corporate jobs. The internship may be the closest experience you'll get to the actual job.

[–]kemikiao 7 ポイント8 ポイント

People who have just graduated from college/high school with little work experience? A stay-at-home mom who is getting her first job since high school since her kids have finally grown and gone? People who think 2 page resumes are a good thing?

[–]Wildhalcyon [score hidden]

Does that mean I should remove the table of contents from my resume? What about the figures, charts, and graphs?

[–]heathenyak 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Nobody if you're trying to keep to the 2 page resume rule. 1page is just too short IMO

[–]AlphaAgain 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Agreed. You can't have a 1 page resume if you've got a working history longer than 5-7 years unless it's been in the same position.

I never tossed a resume I reviewed because it was 2 pages long.

I have, however, tossed out plenty of 3 pagers without even looking at them

[–]Slimpikin 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I have a lengthy and comprehensive resume myself, and I always have room for Hobbies and Other Interests.

In my opinion, the longer your resume is the more important it is to let your employer know that you're a somewhat well rounded individual. Also, if they plan on working you like a dog, they can take some comfort in the fact that you have stress relieving activities that make you less likely to show up at work with a shotgun.

[–]cohrt 0 ポイント1 ポイント

how do you put them on your resume?

[–]Pill_Cosby [score hidden]

Everyone should have that, two lines, right at the end. Gives the interviewer something to talk to you about. It is an opening.

[–]margar3t 12 ポイント13 ポイント

I totally see the difference between being general and giving specific names. I include being a shelter volunteer and fostering dogs on my resume, but it seemed "braggy" or overly proud to name the shelter where I volunteer and the rescue that I foster for. The hobbies and other interests section should be a little modest, because it can get proud and braggy easily.

[–]youssarian 0 ポイント1 ポイント

So basically, if I had experiencing working/volunteering at a church it would be better for me to say

Volunteered for six weeks at a local church

instead of

Volunteered for six weeks at [church name]

Unless I was listing it under work experience?

[–]Slimpikin 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Yes. It lets them know that you have some experience in some kind of role, and that you are a volunteering type, both of which are beneficial. They don't want or care to know what church it was, that's none of their business anyhow.

[–]varisforge 0 ポイント1 ポイント

What about ethnicity related school groups that are relevant?

If i get elected a local leader of aises, the american Indian society of engineering students, would it he a bad thing to list because it identifies me as native american?

[–]SuperstarTinsanity -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Thanks. It certainly isn't satisfying to me, but I can understand your side, especially when there are hundreds and hundreds of applicants.

[–]UncleShoggoth 0 ポイント1 ポイント

You sound Mormon.

[–]AlphaAgain 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Your religion is like a penis.

I'm glad you enjoy yours, but it has no place being discussed in my office.

[–]kornberg 0 ポイント1 ポイント

You're generalizing a specific thing. Some people put in things like "member of rowing team" and "member of Toastmasters" and things like that to create a more personal snapshot. If you like rowing and the HR person likes rowing, that may give you an edge over another applicant to get you in the door for an interview. So, if you were fluffing out your resume with things like that, don't be specific because that shows that you can't leave church at home.

But, if you actually did paid or volunteer work for a church, list it like you would list anything else on your resume. "Associate Youth Group Director, Jesus Church of Something, 20XX-20XX" is fine because you're listing out relevant experience.

[–]Pill_Cosby [score hidden]

EDIT: I should include that I am/was relatively young in my career

Yeah those things are maybe ok if they are substituting for a total lack of experience, but it looks silly. I have seen resumes that are like: "Chief Financial Officer, Scumbag University Rowing Club". Seriously you were not a CFO, 'active in the rowing club' is much better under hobbies, it is a part of what you did at uni.

I wouldnt react well to this at a church group. Just being honest. Not like they have a pool of lots of talented people competing over the positions, you tend to rise just by sticking around. On the other hand I would react well to this if you were applying at starbucks though; it shows you will stick around through drudgery. Just my uninformed opinion fwiw.

[–]fozzyp [score hidden]

A resume should reflect the job you are applying for as best as possible. Unless you are going to be applying to a religious organization, or an organization that has expressed religious ideals (Chik-Fila, Hobby Lobby), its best to stick to skills related specifically to the job.

You have no idea who is looking at your resume. You have to decide, "Am I okay for being rejected because I put on here I'm Christian and do stuff with my church?"

Its against the law to use religion to reject someone, but only an idiot would tell you WHY. Most likely you'll never get a response, or the 'another applicant has been selected.'

[–]yubu 0 ポイント1 ポイント

You shouldn't worry, get on your knees and pray, I'm sure you'll get hired regardless of what you put on your resume.

[–]VividLotus 0 ポイント1 ポイント

How about the probably far more common issue of people who attended a religiously-affiliated school?

Either through their own choice or their parents', many people attend schools with a specific religious affiliation for high school, and sometimes college/university as well. That doesn't mean they're going to be some kind of proselytizing nutbag. For all you know, they could be an atheist, or they could be a person who keeps their religion to themselves at work.

[–]Slimpikin 1 ポイント2 ポイント

That's just fine. Lots of people I have hired have gone to religious schools, and the only time it was ever an issue was one applicant for a geology heavy science tech position wound up being asked some fairly pointed questions about the age of the earth, the dinosaurs, and Noah's Ark by the woman who wound up being his direct supervisor. She wanted to make sure he wasn't going to refuse to do carbon dating, I think.

Otherwise, a school is a school and while the ranking of the school might make a difference, the religious affiliation does not.

[–]Schlenektin 0 ポイント1 ポイント

prosyliting

Proselytizing is the word you're looking for.

[–]tidefan [score hidden]

Did you mean: proselytizing?

[–]HeroGothamKneads [score hidden]

So, one of my biggest jobs has been as a Production Director at a church for years. Which involves management, training and scheduling teams, organizing, programming, and extensive knowledge of many programs and technology in general. If I were to put what church I worked for on the resume so that my job could be referenced and confirmed, I would get tossed out?

[–]dodobirdsNOW -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

I guess my problem is just with the example given. A youth group leader is something that can be relevant to a lot of different positions that if I had done, would almost surely be on any of my resumes. It shows that I am responsible, a leader, have experience in clerical, organizational, and possibly financial areas. And if I'm very involved with my church, I may have volunteered organizing church carnivals that could include contracting laborers, working at a booth collecting/counting money, doing a lot of actual manual labor, etc. in addition to any other things my church might do. Wouldn't all of this suggest that I am a leader, self-motivated, and willing to go the extra mile for something I care about?

On the flip side, if I just put "I'm very involved with my church," or "active in my church congregation," or something else like that, I could totally see where you're coming from. But if I have experience with my church that is relevant to the position applied for, I hate to think it's being held against me because I might mention I'm a Christian at work when it is clearly something I care about.

[–]N8theGr8 5 ポイント6 ポイント

It shows that I am responsible, a leader, have experience in clerical, organizational, and possibly financial areas.

This will certainly vary from church to church. You may have those things, or you may just be the only guy who volunteered. The sizes of churches vary.

Your professional experience should be the most relevant to the job at hand. If you have relevant experience outside of your field of work, it should only be because you haven't had enough time to get that experience, like if you're recently out of college.

[–]dodobirdsNOW -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

So let's say that I have equivalent work experience to other candidates. They do not have outside volunteer experience with their church, while I have the things I listed. Shouldn't it work to my advantage that I take on extra work, or is it still going to be counted against me because I might say I'm a Christian at work?

[–]Slimpikin 6 ポイント7 ポイント

If you have equivalent experience with the other candidates, you're going to get an interview. Suppose you write 'Active in Leadership Roles in my Church' on your resume. We know you're doing something with some church when you come in for the interview, so when you get asked one of those inane questions like 'tell me about a time when you used your people skills to defuse a situation', you can tell me a story about a time when you were doing church work, and expand on what you wrote on your resume to stress the skills you developed doing that work.

[–]kornberg [score hidden]

But here's the thing--you're talking about listing out youth group leader as a volunteer position, so it's part of the main subject of your resume--your relevant experience. If it's relevant, it's fine. The point is that he's eliminating people who clearly do not know the line between appropriate and not appropriate and listing "Active in Jesus is Great Church" on a resume is not appropriate, whereas "Associate Youth Director, Jesus is Great Church, 19XX-20XX, relevant experience" can be appropriate. Additionally, "Activist for Cityville Atheist League" is just as inappropriate, whereas "Board Member. Cityville Athiest League, etc." is fine. If you insist on including non-relevant experience, "active in church youth group" or "active in non-religious affiliation group" shows better judgment on your part.

The religious affiliation isn't the issue, it's the demonstrated inability to show good judgment in displaying one's ability to be professional. If a person is not capable of realizing that non-relevant religious affiliation is not appropriate on a resume, then that says that they may not be capable of knowing how to behave professionally in other ways. If there are other, equally qualified candidates, the name of the game is to narrow it down and look for reasons to eliminate resumes. Someone who could be a future HR nightmare based on their inappropriate resume information is easy to get rid of.

[–]Thementalrapist -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

Are you a mod at /r/atheism?

[–]Jux_ 20 ポイント21 ポイント

Religion is such a touchy subject as it relates to discrimination, so unless it were specifically related to the position itself I would leave it off.

[–]gokusdame -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

But isn't passing on them because of that discriminating against them based on their religion...?

[–]Slimpikin 16 ポイント17 ポイント

Not at all. Legally, it means that I am making a professional judgement based on the contents of a resume and selecting candidates for interviews based on my professional opinion about who may be the best overall fit.

It's not that you are a Christian, Muslim, Jedi, or Voodoo applicant. It's that I have an engaged, committed, and cohesive working unit that I am hiring you into.

Also, I take away points for your lack of professional judgement for putting your religious affiliation on a document that clearly does not require it.

[–]Vioarr7 2 ポイント3 ポイント

You seem to be parsing them out based on the way they convey their affiliation, not by the affiliation itself. Is that correct?

[–]Slimpikin 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Yep. I don't care if you're Christian, Muslim, Jedi, or Pastafarian. Just don't throw whatever affiliation into your resume without a compelling reason to do so, like it was an actual job with your church as opposed to a volunteer thing.

[–]Vioarr7 0 ポイント1 ポイント

So putting militant atheist would discount me? Looks like you won't hire most of reddit then*.

*Joke

[–]Slimpikin 0 ポイント1 ポイント

It would, but only beacause I would be a little worried about how anyone who felt the need to put it in their resume would interact with others at work.

That's the kind of thing you talk about on a second date, your boss doesn't need to know.

For example, my boss has no idea that I am a practicing Jedi ;)

[–]Vioarr7 0 ポイント1 ポイント

What you don't know is that he is a Sith.

[–]GoldhamIndustries -1 ポイント0 ポイント

This reminds me of a game developer who hired a very well qualified guy and one of the other applicants, who was a woman, went over to that job and trashed the place because she believed they were discriminating against gender.

[–]emote_control 0 ポイント1 ポイント

She did a pretty good job of justifying their decision in retrospect, it seems.

[–]toxictaru 5 ポイント6 ポイント

Prove that they passed you over based on your religion.

[–]pepsiredtube 28 ポイント29 ポイント

No. But if there are other qualified candidates without the obvious potential for drama, why keep that particular one in? Usually, there are plenty of applicants and any red flag is enough to push your resume to the side. If I've got 10 that look good and one of them has a flag, then all of a sudden now I've only got 9 to sift through.

Time management.

[–]Citizen__X 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Exactly. That's great if I'm missing on a good candidate, but given the probability for drama, I'm playing good odds to put that resume down.

[–]Jchamberlainhome 8 ポイント9 ポイント

Doesn't matter, we look at these things as a way to whittle down the applicant pool. What slimpikin is saying is absolutely true. We don't openly discriminate we simply weed out based on experiance. I can't tell you how many times I've had to screen candidates with those type of red flags only to have my assumptions become truths.

[–]Citizen__X 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Been there. As much as I don't want it to be true, most of the time it just is.

[–]Jchamberlainhome 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Here's a comparrison...You and your wife go out to dinner with two other couples. You don't really know any of them, perhaps they are neighbors. When you introduce yourself do you say, "We're John and Jane Smith we play golf, enjoy tennis and on Sundays we are snake handlers at the Church of the Serpent.

Another comparison is that conversation you have with someone in an elevator, does religion, politics, or sex come up?

[–]149327 18 ポイント19 ポイント

In a professional environment its best not to mention political or religious beliefs. I'm sure there is another way to say you are a leader for some sort of youth group.

[–]dodobirdsNOW 6 ポイント7 ポイント

How do you leave out the religious connotations from saying you ran a church youth group?

[–]Slimpikin 68 ポイント69 ポイント

You don't. You say 'Ran a Church Youth Group'. What you don't say is 'Ran The Christ The King Evangelical Free Youth Group Activist Wing - duties included organizing juice and sandwiches for our monthly abortion clinic picketing, designing and ordering 'God Hates Fags' signs and banners for various events, maintaining and updating the Pray For Us We Are Governed By A Muslim Communist From Kenya phone bank'.

[–]you_farted 7 ポイント8 ポイント

People have biases whether you like it or not. Religion is divisive regardless if you like it or not. You are completely correct but as a candidate, you have to decide what's more important: leaving that information in there or not risking setting off someone's bias against whatever it is (religion, politics, etc). Sad but it's a big mean world out there.

[–]dodobirdsNOW -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

Thank you for weighing in. I feel like this is the big takeaway from it all. I'm not naive enough to believe that the world is fair, or that people won't have biases when hiring. I was just kinda flabbergasted that something so (or apparently not so) innocuous as pointing out what church I volunteered with could knock me out of the running for a job. Crazy.

[–]you_farted 2 ポイント3 ポイント

You would not believe what knocks people out of the process. Staying away from the obvious is easy. What you can't get around are things that are totally random like your college were the rivals of the hiring manager's school. Yes, I have personally heard that.

[–]nickrox99 6 ポイント7 ポイント

But I can see where he is coming from, if there's a possibility of a work place distraction, why hire that person?

[–]snipehunter13 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Religious groups aren't a total discount, but depending on the client it may be taken into consideration. Once of our clients, albeit illegal, has made it clear to weed these candidates out. They are in the construction industry and have no had much luck with religious people in that environment. Not saying every church-going person cannot handle the construction environment, but it only takes one to cause a problem in the company...

[–]GaryNOVA 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Better safe than sorry.

[–]pancakebrain 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I've always been under the impression that it's wise not to bring up religion or politics at work.

[–]TheDodoBird 0 ポイント1 ポイント

/u/dodobirdsNOW

/u/TheDodoBird, checking in!

[–]RoscoeProbincrux3 0 ポイント1 ポイント

It is also illegal (in the US anyways) to exclude candidates on the basis of religion (or lack thereof).

[–]miketeeeveee [score hidden]

Slimpikin said he WOULD hire someone who put youth group leader in a generic way. He wouldn't hire someone who was at some nutter church.

[–]37badideas[🍰] [score hidden]

Yes, I would conclude that anyone who makes prominent mention of religion and religious activities on a resume is a religious nut job. At the very least, he is unable to properly segregate his religious life from his professional life and doesn't realize how inappropriate it is to put his religious affiliations and activities on a resume listing his business qualifications. Obviously for religious jobs this would be different.

[–]yubu -1 ポイント0 ポイント

HAHA, Your god has now power in the hiring room. Love it.

[–]dodobirdsNOW 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Lol... Well done.

[–]Lanestrom -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

Agreed. That one is VERY upsetting. Who cares if someone puts his specific church on the resume? You just assume that person will cause problems? That's pretty judgmental.

[–]Cifize 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Of course it is. That's what you do when reviewing resumés - you judge.