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ImageIf Stormwind had a Queen. (imgur.com)

submitted by perc10

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[–]JustaGigolo 84 ポイント85 ポイント

Fantasy RPGs in a nutshell?

EDIT

Massive battleground below this comment.

[–]inormallyjustlurkbut 19 ポイント20 ポイント

Unfortunately

[–]Rotuyoh 21 ポイント22 ポイント

Unfortunately

[–]snakeob -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

sloth

[–]Ricekrisper 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I enjoyed this picture

[–]perc10[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Why is it unfortunate?

[–]inormallyjustlurkbut 20 ポイント21 ポイント

It's unfortunate that few fantasy artists depict women without hyper-sexualizing them.

It's a blight on the genre.

[–]SimplicityDemand 18 ポイント19 ポイント

You can't hyper-sexualize them but you can hyper-masculinize them? What if Variann just wanted to marry a hot babe, and not give a fuck about her being some badass plate wearing fighter? This is the most realistic outcome possible.

[–]Owncksd 29 ポイント30 ポイント

You can't hyper-sexualize them but you can hyper-masculinize them?

Two scenarios:

A male designs his idea of the ideal male, a massive, scarred, badass dude decked out in cool heavy armor that covers him from head to foot.

and

A male designs his idea of the ideal female, a spindly woman with the curviest figure that ever did curve, wearing little more than a chain bikini and stripper boots and heavy make up on her face.

See the difference? The first is a power fantasy - what the designer wants to be like - and the second is a sexual fantasy - what the designer wants his women to be like.

It'd be the same the other way around too, if a female designer made two characters, a woman in historically accurate plate armor and a man with a massive bulge in a Chippendales outfit. Power vs. sexual.

[–]Zeliek 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Actually generally what happens is the female designer still designs the way the male designs because her boss says so, on account of them having to appeal to a heterosexual male teenaged demographic.

[–]Owncksd 2 ポイント3 ポイント

That's true enough. I suppose I was imagining the situation with an independent designer/artist who didn't have any sort of director telling her what to make.

[–]ametalshard -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

a woman in historically accurate plate armor

this is a huge myth/fantasy almost entirely dreamt up by reddit and the like. The idea that there were anything more than a handful of "warrior-women" even a hundredth of a percent of male warriors is ludicrous, and the idea that they wore anything at all like the plate armor worn in 80s Hollywood productions is even more ludicrous.

If there is a blight on fantasy, it is how pervasive the myth of warrior-women has become.

[–]Owncksd 2 ポイント3 ポイント

By "historically accurate" I didn't mean armor specifically made for warrior women that totally existed in history (I know they didn't), just that the design of the armor was real and would have been worn by somebody.

This as opposed to this.

The first is something that would have been worn - not by a woman, sure, but still absolutely usable and serves a purpose. The second, not so much. Ain't nobody wearing that in real life.

[–]Impeesa_ 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I don't think he's talking about historically accurate warrior-women, just historically accurate armor (which is another can of worms entirely, but "plausible" would be good enough).

[–]GrimaceJoe 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Hypermasculinization is a male power fantasy, hypersexualization is a male sex fantasy. If the masculine shit were about female sex fantasy the armor would show off abs and shit.

[–]ametalshard -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Just demonstrably wrong.

[–]SimplicityDemand -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Sorry but you are wrong about both. It can come from either gender and be about either gender, it all depends. OPs art is not really hyper-sexualization but it could definetly be a power fantasy for a woman.

[–]Zeliek 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I have female friends who would really enjoy the way the queen is portrayed. They get a sense of power out of seeing women in half the equipment getting the same job done as the men needing huge amounts of over powered looking armor, muscles and weaponry.

[–]Poorly_Worded_Reply 6 ポイント7 ポイント

The problem with people like /u/inormallyjustlurkbut is that the moment something like this comes up, its impossible for a man to be hyper-sexualized. Instead, they would just be appreciated for their presentation. The moment we do it to a woman, though, its objectification and over-sexualizing women into objects.

[–]zereissen 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Men aren't hyper-sexualized into objects, though. They're hyper-sexualized into super-burly heroes who continue to get things done.

[–]ametalshard 2 ポイント3 ポイント

>Men aren't hyper-sexualized into objects

[–]zereissen 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Would you argue that these men don't look capable? They certainly look like they could fight better than most sexualized women.

[–]Chyrch 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Most women aren't hyper sexualized into sex objects. You just see it as that because it fits comfortably with your preconceived notions about this issue.

Women want to look at pretty women. Men want to look at handsome men. They just don't admit it. But look at movie actors. It doesn't matter how incredible of an actor you are. If you're not good looking enough, you won't get the lead. This holds true for all movies, ones aimed toward men as well as the ones aimed toward women

[–]zereissen 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Women want to look at pretty women. Men want to look at handsome men. They just don't admit it.

You just see it as that because it fits comfortably with your preconceived notions about this issue.

[–]Zeliek 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Its not "the moment when," the problem is the moment is all the time and never ending. There is too little diversity in gaming in how we portray both genders.

I myself am a fan of having a rich cast of different characters. Theres some super burly masculine men with huge swords and armor that seems nonsensically heavy, slender women in skimpy mail clothing, and then also a fair amount of tough looking plate wearing tank women as well as charming, unbuttoned shirt men.

[–]Poorly_Worded_Reply 0 ポイント1 ポイント

But here's where people tend to forget something: the gaming companies actually look at what attracts people to play their games. If the gender issue playing out in this thread was a serious concern in the game, the people would make that objection clear in what they play and trust me, WoW players have no end to voicing their concerns about what they do and do not like.

So far, no changes in that regard, which means the player base likes it that way.

Now, I agree, a diverse character base would be nice, but WoW already has that. 11 different races, multiple classes. What's missing is the level of customizability and I think that is what you're really getting at. I could be wrong, but it sounds like it.

[–]inormallyjustlurkbut -5 ポイント-4 ポイント

I'm glad you know me well enough to generalize how I would respond to hypothetical situations.

The problem with people like /u/Poorly_Worded_Reply is that the moment a problem affects a demographic that isn't him, he thinks it's a non-issue.

[–]Poorly_Worded_Reply 0 ポイント1 ポイント

You're getting upset over how an idealized male character is re-envisioned as an idealized female character.

And you failed to answer my question: why should we care?

It is a non-issue and your responses throughout this thread have proved it.

[–]OliverGrune 8 ポイント9 ポイント

"Sexism: a non-issue."

[–]Jilvak -1 ポイント0 ポイント

How is it sexism?

[–]HotLamp 0 ポイント1 ポイント

You should go back to lurking.

[–]ReVaQ 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Or maybe your view of how women should be like is the problem? Have you ever thought about that? (I'm just being a devils advocate here)

[–]xiic 1 ポイント2 ポイント

And yet in the same picture the two males behind her are towering giants with football pad shoulders.

Fantasy is fantasy for a reason.

[–]gr33nm4n 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I totally get where you are coming from, and I hate that you are being downvoted, but I'd like to interject a Steve Jobs quote that applies in so many situations including this one.

“WHEN YOU'RE YOUNG, YOU LOOK AT TELEVISION AND THINK, THERE'S A CONSPIRACY. THE NETWORKS HAVE CONSPIRED TO DUMB US DOWN. BUT WHEN YOU GET A LITTLE OLDER, YOU REALIZE THAT'S NOT TRUE. THE NETWORKS ARE IN BUSINESS TO GIVE PEOPLE EXACTLY WHAT THEY WANT.” - Steve Jobs

This is true in fantasy genres and pretty much all media. Sex sells. Women are sexy, to both men and women. If I had a nickle for every female pinterest feed with shapely/photoshopped/toned bodies I'd be a lot richer. Granted, it also doesn't help that a huge portion of the fanbase of the fantasy genre are 13-20 yr old males, sex consumes a ton of their thought.

Yes, I agree its a problem, but it is a problem that starts with the playerbase, not the creators. But, look at the bright side, 5 years ago, I promise yours would not have been the third highest rated comment. Things will continue to change.

[–]carlmeister -5 ポイント-4 ポイント

here we go again...

[–]jbkjam 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Fantasy will continue to be seen as lower form of genre dominated my young or single old men by always representing women like this. Even when it's not true people will see this and see how fantasy still has women only as fantasy arm candy and not real characters with depth.

It will keep fantasy dominated by men and seen as a joke to many. Simply it is seen as male twilight/50 shades of gray. Some, like myself, would like the genre move past this more.

[–]Jilvak 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Nobody sees it as a joke except the people offended (why they're offended is beyond me.) I can show this picture to a person outside of the community of fantasy or even videogames and they more than likely wouldn't have a problem with it. This is a non-issue, made up by some people with real issues.

[–]jbkjam 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I'm glad your anecdotal hypothetical people don't see it as a joke. Many who read twilight don't see it as a joke either.

[–]Jilvak -1 ポイント0 ポイント

I admit, I don't have any real statistics. But we can use this thread as an example. It seems pretty divided into the group who see no problem with it, and the group who think there's a severe issue. The people with no qualms, seem to not think it a joke I would say. Wouldn't you?

[–]jbkjam 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I agree the mostly young and male population that probably likes fantasy doesn't see it as a problem with a fantasy picture. Just like I'm sure the twilight sub (if there is one) won't see anything wrong with a sexualized vampire. I just would like fantasy with its rich culture to become more than twilight porn for boys.

[–]Jilvak 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Then search for fantasy with rich culture, or enjoy the what rich there actually is. There's not need to degrade something someone else enjoys because you don't like it, that's unfair.

[–]jbkjam 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Say that to the people who see fantasy as only a young or single old male genre. As many will see that this genre degrades women to plays things to goggle at and not much more.

[–]zereissen 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I can show this picture to a person outside of the community of fantasy or even videogames and they more than likely wouldn't have a problem with it.

And if they did have a problem, you'd dismiss their opinion because they have "real issues" right?

This is a non-issue, made up by some people with real issues.

Nice ad hominem.

[–]Jilvak 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I would take their offense into consideration and suppose a compromise. I don't ask their opinion, because I don't really need it as their offense is not my business. And keep that type of content away from said person as they are not keen toward it. But I wouldn't dismiss it completely it's still my own preference afterall.

As for the ad hominem, yeah. Didn't think it through it is kind of dumb.

[–]Darbinator 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Fight fight fight fight