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TIL that over 90% of pregnancies in the United Kingdom and Europe with a diagnosis of Down syndrome are terminated. (en.wikipedia.org)

submitted by Daz10

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[–]marcuschookt 243 ポイント244 ポイント

This is one of the things that makes you seem like an asshole, but is really just necessary.

People with Down's don't have a lot to live for. Many are alive only because their parents want to feel good about having "saved" a life. The cold hard fact is that raising someone with Down's is detrimental to ALL.

The individual suffers. The parents suffer emotionally, physically, mentally and financially. Society has just another mouth to feed with welfare.

[–]Richmoneybucks 48 ポイント49 ポイント

Sucks, but is true. People with autism, a lot of them are told they'll never get out of high school and they end up making it really far in life, but with down's it's pretty much a guarantee.

[–]phishf00d 30 ポイント31 ポイント

There are plenty of jobs and opportunities with minimal people time. Mechanic, lab tech, janitor, dish washer... Sure, not all of them are glorious but they are options and they will pay the bills. Downs, you are likely paying someone to look after you.

[–]I_done_a_plop-plop [score hidden]

Most autistics are just socially incompetent idiots anyway. Same with dyslexics.

[–]forever_erratic 53 ポイント54 ポイント

While my wife and I personally would have aborted a DS fetus (we had our first kid recently and did all the tests specifically for this reason), I have to completely disagree with your assertion that people with Down's don't have a lot to live for.

A close friend growing up had a brother with Down's, he is one of the happiest guys I know (the Down's brother). Way happier than most of us with the normal chromosome compliment. He is retarded, of course, but not a rock. He has a lot to live for, finds joy in so much, and is cared for and cares for many people in a sincere and loving manner. He'll never grasp the complexities of human society and never be allowed to have kids himself, but he personally is a very happy guy. He also makes his family very happy; he goes out of his way to be helpful and loving and doesn't hold back in this regard, frankly it's very touching. He would never deceive or desert you.

Yes, you are right that there is a lot of suffering to go along with it, especially the financial hardship and then the lack of the typical 18 year time limit, which is why my wife and I chose to ensure we did not have a DS baby, but it is wrong to say the people themselves don't have a lot to live for.

[–]henkiedepenkie [score hidden]

Indeed, the statement that people with Down's 'cannot be happy' or 'will never have a fulfilling life' is made too often and without evidence in this thread.

[–]forever_erratic [score hidden]

Worse, it's made repeatedly despite there being very clear evidence of the opposite in this thread.

It's just the typical reddit problem, a lot of absolutists making mindless reactionary statements, not recognizing that hardship does not instantly negate happiness.

When I run into this shit, I have to remember that a large proportion of reddit users are very young and haven't learned to think with nuance yet (no offense if you're a teen).

[–]xela88 [score hidden]

Going to hell for this...

                       Dog          Downs Brother
                       ---          -------------

Initial Outlay:        $300         Hopsital Bills ($1500)
Annual Cost:           $1000        $$$
Happy:                 Yes          Yes
Loving:                Yes          Yes
Loyal:                 Yes          Yes
Hairy:                 Yes          Partly
Chases Cats:           Often        Rarely
Lives:                 > 18 Years   > 18 Years
Eats:                  Dog Food     Human Food

[–]DallasTruther [score hidden]

You said it better than I was going to.

Except for the having kids part, that middle paragraph could be describing a fucking dog.

[–]whycantmydogmoo [score hidden]

I dunno, about the 'not having kids' not being relevant, almost everyone I know who has a dog gets it neutered/spayed so as not to add to the unwanted dog population?

Only I don't think you can neuter humans...

[–]rdudejr [score hidden]

You will absolutely go to hell for misspelling hospital

[–]PM_ME_UR_BIG_BOOBS [score hidden]

You do realize that this sort of thinking will get you promoted, right?

Btw, it's hard to argue with your statistics. Of course I tend to agree with your point before seeing any of this.

[–]Montigue [score hidden]

What kind of dog do you have that costs $1000 a year!?

[–]Bowserdog34 [score hidden]

Im sorry but I really hate this argument. Yeah, sure the person who is trapped in a toddler's mindframe is happy. They dont know enough to be sad. But their care takers and parents and siblings are depressed as fuck.

[–]forever_erratic [score hidden]

Well, you make two points, both of which I disagree with. First, you say that people with DS can't be sad. Obviously it'll depend in part on the severity, but that is demonstrably wrong. They're cognitively impaired, not incapable of emotion. If you are so certain you are right, go up to one and say "I hate you" or "you're ugly." You're going to make them sad, just like it would anyone else (frankly don't do this, it would be very mean, precisely because it would hurt their feelings, because they are capable of an emotional life).

The second point, that caregivers are implied to be in all cases depressed, is also demonstrably wrong. It is proven wrong in this very thread. Yes, it can be a serious hardship to care for someone with a mental disability, but it does not sentence you to depression without exception.

TLDR: You're making absolutist statements that are easily disproven

[–]frechel 123 ポイント124 ポイント

I IThere's another side to the coin. My family adopted my sister when she was a baby because she has Down Syndrome. We had a fairly good financial situation and basically wanted to positively effect the life of someone dealt a bad hand.

Raising her has taught me more lessons than I could properly express. It instills values like patience, understanding, in a way that really isn't possible to learn in any other setting. Like when your younger brother messes up, you probably yell at him, get mad, etc. When your sibling with Down Syndrome messes up, you don't get mad because it's not their fault. That whole dynamic makes you question if people are at fault for their short comings or if they were just born different.

Idk it was definitely an interesting thing to be thinking about growing up and it definitely made me into the person I am today. (Which is a good person I hope)

Edit: it's also kind of crazy to claim it's detrimental to all when the only demographic of the ones you listed that you fit is the tax payer of society, the least effected one.

[–]darthbone 16 ポイント17 ポイント

I think we overvalue these experiences, though. I learned a lot from my father in law and grandmother dying within a month of each other, but that's just me putting a positive spin on the experience to cope with it and to make it seem like it had some purpose and value.

Obviously people grow to love these children. One of my best friend's brother in law has downs, and everybody loves the guy. But are their lives objectively better than if he'd been born without that spare chromosome? Not really. He's still a burden on his aging parents, even if they've learned how to deal with that aspect of the relationship in a way that might not make it such a burden anymore.

It's an adaptation people are forced to make that, in and of itself, is a detriment.

[–]frechel [score hidden]

Idk man. I'm a graduate student now in engineering, and so many of these guys are cynical pretentious assholes. They see someone do something stupid, they laugh at him. They always call people dumb, stupid etc. They literally don't realize how lucky they were to be born with a high IQ, and that it doesn't make their life any more valuable than people with lower IQs.

This is the sort of thing they get away with now, but if they keep it up into adult hood they are going to have a bad time.

Edit: I do believe Down Syndrome fetuses should be aborted since I don't think life starts until brain activity starts.

[–]henkiedepenkie [score hidden]

To be precise, life starts before brain activity starts, but 'person-hood' (whatever that is) is usually understood to start developing when the brain itself is sufficiently developed (probably a lot later than when 'brain activity' starts).

[–]KlicknKlack 37 ポイント38 ポイント

Devils Advocate; But that example could be a reason to abort a down syndrome fetus, because of how you put it,

"you don't get mad because its not their fault"

So, at least for me, being self-sufficient and in-control of their actions is a huge part of becoming an adult/person.

I am not saying their is no value in her life, but it is not something many people could deal with every day of their life, for the rest of their known life. If that makes me a weak person, so be it, but those are the things I find essential to my view of being an adult human.

[–]VarsityPhysicist [score hidden]

"you don't get mad because its not their fault"

But you do the same for a child until they learn and understand. That would be so terrible, to forever be limited to a child's understanding of our world

[–]SRS-SRSLY [score hidden]

Your post makes me wonder if you've every done anything difficult in your life. Of course they've considered that! They probably mulled over that thought and others a hundred more times than you have.

Spare us your devil's advocate - you're not going to teach /u/frechel a lesson about their own life.

[–]KlicknKlack [score hidden]

Yes I have done hard and challenging things in my life, but everything I have done has had some chance of being successful. And to me, teaching your kids to become self-sufficient and full-functioning adults is one of the goals I would cherish as a father.

[–]Bowserdog34 [score hidden]

shitpost

[–]clavalle [score hidden]

Having worked with developmentally disabled kids it is really hard to put up with normal people's whiny bullshit when someone with a single digit age mentality can do the same things without complaint.

[–]_Foy [score hidden]

Out of curiosity what happens to your sister when your parents die? Do you care for her then? She will never be a self sufficient adult and can never care for herself.

It's nice that as a rich family, you adopted her. But there are no where near enough rich families willing to do that for all the Downs babies that are born and put up for adoption.

Your example is nice and all, but it's a single, tiny, data point against a huge flood of foster children. Abortion is probably the best option in 99% of Downs cases.

[–]all4classwar [score hidden]

Whether or not a retarded person is detrimental is clearly subjective. Your family obviously felt confident enough in it's ability to care for such a person that they actively sought that out. Others do not posses the ability or desire to properly care for such an individual. Neither is incorrect or superior. Like you said, just a different side.

[–]threerocks [score hidden]

It's amazing how many people are completely ok making a decision on if someone should live or die based on their own notions of if that persons life is worth living.

If someone else decided that a defect they had made their life not worth living I bet they wouldn't be so fast to say how great selectively killing based on a defect is.

[–]DotHobbes [score hidden]

Get a dog or something.

[–]Diplomjodler [score hidden]

So going through pain and suffering can teach you lessons about life and maybe even make you a better person. But is that really a justification for the pain and suffering?

[–]mero8181 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

What happens to the baby with downs when your parents pass? Did your parents think about care after they are gone?

[–]Giraffable 42 ポイント43 ポイント

"People with downs don't have a lot to live for" - what do you mean by that? I know a person with Down's syndrome who is engaged to another and even goes to college (in a special program). Bearing that in mind, what do you have to live for that they don't? What does anyone have to live for if you really want to get into it?

[–]meantism 88 ポイント89 ポイント

TURN DOWN'S FOR WHAT

[–]skippythemoonrock 17 ポイント18 ポイント

You have been waiting for a chance to post that for a while, haven't you

[–]OneOfDozens2 16 ポイント17 ポイント

He's likely talking about the severe cases where people can't communicate let alone have a clue what an engagement is.

[–]Giraffable 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Perhaps, but as far as I'm aware the different potentialities of someone with Down's syndrome are indistinguishable at the early stages of embryonic development. Just as they are for everyone else.

[–]RedAero [score hidden]

Be that as it may, is it worth the risk?

[–]Giraffable [score hidden]

If it was my child were talking about (I'm 22 I don't have kids) I would probably abort. And I don't have a problem with anyone who says they would. I don't agree that we should actively encourage people to abort a child with Down's syndrome or any other child because the child has a lower chance of being able to 'contribute' to society in the form of taxes in the future.

[–]DongerRaiser420 [score hidden]

Do you believe this person you know is the majority, or the outlier?

[–]VarsityPhysicist [score hidden]

Being an american where we have a lower rate of abortions for DS, and seeing them in public schools, I can tell you this person described is an outlier

[–]Kasztan 19 ポイント20 ポイント

You mean that his parents have money?

Awesome.

[–]henkiedepenkie [score hidden]

Most European countries have a rather well developed health care system that provides opportunities for people with Down's. One important thing to note however is that because there are less and less children born with Down's, the facilities available for them see less and less use and degrade/are abandoned.

[–]Giraffable 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Not particularly no. And I don't really see the relevance of that to his ability to lead a fulfilled life and form a relationship with another person (in his case) with Down's syndrome. I'm in Europe by the way, college costs about €2000 here.

[–]Devinity [score hidden]

€2000 a year, for tuition, room and board, and other living expenses? Maybe I should move there.

[–]Giraffable [score hidden]

Are you an EU citizen? Shouldn't be too difficult to find if you are.

[–]Kasztan -1 ポイント0 ポイント

And what will be be able to do after this college?

Count?

[–]mk72206 [score hidden]

He can work at a coffee shop, which is what millions of people today do with a college degree.

[–]Giraffable [score hidden]

What are you able to do? There are a lot of people in the world with more to offer than you can - does this make it impossible for you to have a fulfilling life? Can an animal have a worthwhile life? Can someone that has an IQ of 85 and works as a cleaner have a fulfilling life? What should dictate a value of a life?

[–]Kasztan [score hidden]

I can help my friend to live and earn money again if he'd be in a pinch.

I can pay my taxes.

I can help to push society forward by not having a baby which will consume my entire life for nothing.

What should dictate the value of life?

Usefulness and dependency. You may be useless, but you don't depend on others, that's fine. You're useful, but you depend on others, that's also fine.

If you're neither, then you're a parasite.

Human or not, parasite is a parasite.

[–]Giraffable [score hidden]

People with Down's syndrome can often work in menial jobs firstly. If someone is in an accident and can't work because of restricted movement does their life becoming worthless because they cannot contribute tax dollars to society? Anyone on welfare or any animals which are incapable of caring for themselves (i.e. pets) are worthless and unnecessary? There is value beyond what you can contribute in $ during your life. And if someone with Down's syndrome does have parents who are willing to sacrifice their time for a child they love, what's the problem with that?

[–]JLord [score hidden]

What college are you talking about? I've never heard of a college for people with Down's and would like to look into it further.

[–]Giraffable [score hidden]

Well I live in Ireland, it's a type of community college.

[–]JLord [score hidden]

Which one?

[–]PoopAndSunshine [score hidden]

You do realize this is the exception, and not the rule, right?

[–]huludshai 15 ポイント16 ポイント

Sry, but i have to respond. My sister has down's, my cousin has down's. I did voluntary work with disabled people and worked over a year supporting and taking care of one. In my experience none of the things you said are true. None. My sister is the most happy, friendliest person you'll ever met. She may not ever read shakespeare, but who cares? Her strength lies in different areas. She has never been a burden to my family, to the contrary she added alot of value to it. And i cannot stand some of your viewpoints ("another mouth for society to feed, nothing to life for etc") It's hard for me to remain calm reading this. Maybe things here in Germany are different than where you are from. Or you just never had any experience with disabled people and just don't know better. And i hate to bring the Nazi-argument, but the last people in germany who said the things you said here in germany, were not the good guys....

[–]CTR555 [score hidden]

Finally, a Nazi reference on reddit that isn't completely out of place.

[–]barmstrong730 [score hidden]

What are the odds of your child having downs since it's so prominent in your family's genes? Serious. Do you think about this at all? If you knew your child was going to have it would you terminate?

[–]rad140 [score hidden]

Godwin's law achieved.

[–]ObiWanXenobi [score hidden]

Nope; "The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics, or racial superiority."

Selective pregnancy termination based on genetic defects is a form of eugenics. Hence, the Nazi analogy is well founded in this case, and Godwin's law is not in effect.

[–]huludshai [score hidden]

yeah i know... i just couldn't help myself :/

[–]DallasTruther [score hidden]

Her strength lies in different areas.

[+1 If you gimme her number bro]

[–]idk112345 8 ポイント9 ポイント

Do you know anybody with down's syndrom? Many, many, many of them are happy and full of life. They are a joy to be around.

[–]Detsuahxe [score hidden]

But how many of them would choose to have been born with downs if they had the choice? That's the actual question here.

[–]chorgt [score hidden]

What about the people who take care of them?

[–]dineenma 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Would you say that they're unfit for life? Worthy of purge?

It's delightfully selfish to characterize another person as "just another mouth to feed with welfare". What about the broad spectra of disorders that can only be diagnosed after birth? Say Autism? How's their fitness/worthiness for welfare, much less existence in society so as not to be a detriment to you?

I am thoroughly pro-choice - and it's exactly that. I support the right of a person to choose whether or not they wish to incubate another person. Whatever their reasons are, they should be satisfied that their decision was right.

People with low-paying career prospects don't have a lot to live for either, in the modern world.

[–]Exosan 0 ポイント1 ポイント

It's a part of their condition that people with DS tend to be very, very affectionate and sweet. I disagree with you on a lot of points but since they're opinion vs. opinion I won't go into them. "Don't have a lot to live for", however, is mostly false. More often than not (obviously there are always deviations from the norm) these people have the cheerfulness and optimism of dogs. I, uh, mean that in a good way.

[–]LetsKeepItSFW [score hidden]

I think everyone who focused on the "not a lot to live for" part of your comment completely missed the point. If that part bothers you so much, ignore it. It's a very vague statement, and I can see how it could be both offensive or entirely accurate, depending on how you interpret it and the particular case you are envisioning. Still, everything else in this comment does not rely on that point whatsoever:

Many [people with Down's] are alive only because their parents want to feel good about having "saved" a life. The cold hard fact is that raising someone with Down's is detrimental to ALL.

The individual suffers. The parents suffer emotionally, physically, mentally and financially. Society has just another mouth to feed with welfare.

[–]mushroomgodmat [score hidden]

People with Down's don't have a lot to live for. Many are alive only because their parents want to feel good about having "saved" a life. The cold hard fact is that raising someone with Down's is detrimental to ALL

Mostly rubbish (at least in my neck of the woods).

I've done some work with kids with Downs and their parents, and I don't believe for one minute any parent assumed some smug attitude about "saving" a life. A lot of it, or most of is is down to parents wanting to do whats best for their children.

As for the kids (and young adults) themselves....Many are self sufficient, lovable and more than capable of living a full and satisfying life (often with the help and advice of others).

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[–]Benjabby -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

I effectively believe that the consciousness that would have belonged to the down syndrome child would go next child they have if he/she was aborted. It makes me feel better about sharing the same view as you.

I don't know why I need to feel better about it though