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Mike Morhaime replies to open letter over diversity in Blizzard games. (mmo-champion.com)

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[–]High Tinkeradminbeast -13 ポイント-12 ポイント

Well, sure, plenty of strong female characters.

Like, you've got... um...

Oh, of course. Sylvanas, who runs the world's most dangerous army this side of the Scourge, from behind the safety and comfort of her platemail bikini.

Then you've got... um... what's her name? The green chick who hangs out in Darnassus and is always being rescued by people? You know, she's married to that Bob guy, the one with the wings...

Oh, and Jaina, who was a marvellous character until Blizzard had to destroy someone in order to advance the plot, and she pulled the short straw. Bye-bye personality, identity, history...

Then there's Moira, who totally has a scenario all about her, so she's essentially as important as Varian...

[–]11123123123145123424 7 ポイント8 ポイント

  • Alxstrasza
  • Ysera
  • Sylvanas
  • Jaina
  • Onyxia
  • Moira
  • Lady Liadrin
  • Valeera
  • Alleria
  • Azshara
  • Tyrande
  • Maeiv
  • Vashj
  • Naisha
  • Aegwynn
  • Magatha Grimtotem
  • Garona

"b-but they don't do enough in-game so they don't count!" Yeah just like most male characters that aren't Thrall.

[–]SituationSoap 0 ポイント1 ポイント

The most prominent horde-side female character in MoP is someone who brews and carries beer. Having a whole bunch of female characters then not actually doing anything with them is pretty much the definition of token.

[–]ComputerJerk 2 ポイント3 ポイント

A cursory glance at this list of Major Characters suggests to me there is actually a pretty reasonable number of women. Perhaps it's not enough for some people but I've always felt that Warcraft, of all the game universe's that exist, was pretty good on the gender balance front.

[–]High Tinkeradminbeast -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

A cursory glance at your list of "Major Characters" suggests that this list was prepared with a very generous definition of the word "Major" in mind.

Like this dude: http://www.wowwiki.com/Modimus_Anvilmar

That's a major character?

You're seriously putting him in the same boat with Thrall?

He doesn't even appear in the game...

[–]ComputerJerk 1 ポイント2 ポイント

It says right there in the article that he appears in statue form and there are references to him in archeology. Next you'll be telling me Turalyon isn't a major character in the Warcraft universe.

Even if you wanted to reduce the list of characters to only those who appear as active participants in World of Warcraft, there are still a pretty reasonable number of woman in significant roles from the outset, whether they're heroes or villains.

[–]SituationSoap 2 ポイント3 ポイント

The problem is, those women have been shunted more and more to the side as we've gone on. Jaina isn't relevant in game in MoP (at least horde side). Sylvanas doesn't have a part to play in MoP that I've run into. Aggra's disappeared and has been confirmed not to be coming back in WoD. Maiev has been MIA for 6+ years.

Blizzard's introduced a lot of quality female characters, but the last few years they've pretty much forgotten that they exist. That the quality of Blizzard's lore writing has declined at the same time is something that I think is an accident but both are indicative of a noticeable regression in writing quality coming out of Blizzard HQ in the last 5 years or so.

[–]High Tinkeradminbeast -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

there are still a pretty reasonable number of woman in significant roles from the outset, whether they're heroes or villains.

And yet when people provide us with specific lists, we get raid bosses and quest-givers, not actual significant figures within lore, certainly not figures portrayed even-handedly or sympathetically. (Except for Jaina Proudmoore, who might have fit the bill -- until this expansion.)

[–]ComputerJerk 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I think your expectations are off more than I necessarily disagree with you. The vast majority of characters in world of warcraft are portrayed as either quest givers, idle NPCs with dialog or bosses in dungeons and raids.

To ignore characters who appear in only this capacity is to immediately disregard 99% of the characters that have ever appeared no matter how utterly central they are to some of the story lines.

[–]High Tinkeradminbeast -1 ポイント0 ポイント

"Look, you guys, we DO have gay NPCs: there's a dude who loads and unloads timber at the sawmill in Elwynn, and one of the goblins at the barber shop is totally a lesbian, so THERE. Okay, neither of them have any dialogue, nor names, but they're technically there..."

Not a very satisfying answer, is it.

[–]ComputerJerk 1 ポイント2 ポイント

It's an utterly valid answer to a question that nobody asked. What relevance has somebody's sexuality got with what takes place in this game? There is almost no romance and what little of it is about as hands off as it could possibly be.

Regardless, I wasn't even talking about sexuality I was talking about the distribution of significant female characters being pretty reasonable. Perhaps there is room for improvement but suggesting that there are no strong female characters in Warcraft lore is just nonsense.

[–]SituationSoap -1 ポイント0 ポイント

I was talking about the distribution of significant female characters being pretty reasonable.

You and I have different definitions of reasonable; going down that list the only grouping that appears to be relatively even is Dragon Aspects, where it's 3 men/ 2 women. Night Elves, a society that's supposed to be matriarchal still has more male than female major characters. Basically every other grouping is all dudes and one or maybe two women.

[–]dothandothan 5 ポイント6 ポイント

If you are going to throw bombs for Sylvanas being sexualized why aren't you crying about the ridiculous musclemen that males are in the games?

Hell Blood elves got buffed up a bit right before BC and people still question their models sexuality.

All the wow characters are flawed and many are just flat and boring, I'm sorry but that's the way it is. For every Moira and Jaina there is a boring and inexplicable male equivalent somewhere.

Interesting question, why are bad guys, such as Archimonde, Sargeras, Kil'Jaeden, Ner'Zhul and others almost always males? Why are men almost always the bad guys in blizzard games if we really want to ask interesting questions, are females less evil or is there some bias?

[–]SituationSoap 1 ポイント2 ポイント

people still question their models sexuality.

This is pretty much the core of the whole problem right here. Somehow, we've internalized the idea that it's OK for the WoW population to voice the opinion that if you're a skinny guy, you're gay.

[–]High Tinkeradminbeast -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

If you are going to throw bombs for Sylvanas being sexualized why aren't you crying about the ridiculous musclemen that males are in the games? Hell Blood elves got buffed up a bit right before BC and people still question their models sexuality.

Blood Elves didn't get "masculinized" in order to cater to women; Blood Elves got "masculinized" because men were complaining that the previous models were too womanly and this was making them uncomfortable.

In other words, muscly male player characters aren't a sop to women, they're a sop to men.

[–]dothandothan 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Blood Elves didn't get "masculinized" in order to cater to women

I'm not sure if you are saying that most heterosexual women don't find men attractive.

Yes, there are some annoying dudebros that find small muscles as "unmanly". There are also a lot of gamers male and female that find the muscles attractive physically and would object to removing them.

I don't care either way but women are a part of that equation too.

[–]SituationSoap 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I'm not sure if you are saying that most heterosexual women don't find men attractive.

He's pointing out that the decision to increase the muscle size on Blood Elves wasn't because women wanted them to be larger, it was because men were "questioning their sexuality".

I'm sure that many women enjoy the large muscles on male characters, but the muscle-bound male isn't a traditionally female fantasy, it's a traditionally male fantasy.

[–]High Tinkeradminbeast 0 ポイント1 ポイント

To be more specific, it's a male fantasy of being, as distinct from a fantasy of possessing. But, yes, still a fundamentally male fantasy.

[–]Soltheron 0 ポイント1 ポイント

My sister was very displeased that they made the blood elves all muscular, and so was my girlfriend.

The muscly He-Man is a male power fantasy, and people who don't understand gender discussions (read: MRAs and most of Reddit) need to do some fucking reading.

[–]High Tinkeradminbeast -1 ポイント0 ポイント

I'm not sure if you are saying that most heterosexual women don't find men attractive.

That's not what I'm saying. At all. And have you asked a woman how she feels about muscly Blood Elves, or are you content to just assume that you can rest easy, secure in your knowledge that their tastes are included and represented without any actual need to consult them?

Incidentally, even if your theory was right (which it isn't: blood elves were fixed because men were whining, not because women wanted buffer men) the solution to sexualized female characters is not to sexualize men to the same degree. Treating people as sex objects is the problem, not the solution.

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    [–]dothandothan -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    I don't know, a lot of evidence that women sexualize men but who would say that women are attracted to physically capable men?

    How would I get the idea that women sexualize as much as men?

    I'm saying that the male characters are just as sexualized, look at the human male models and the silly proportions, link

    It is insane. Wrists that are silly sized, huge pecs, hyper developed muscles. Its absolutely insane.

    But no, lets just talk about how a few characters we don't like that happen to be female, (Moira, Jaina) and a powerful character we feel is sexualized (Sylvanas) is a proof of sexism.

    I'm saying there is WAY more sexism in wow that we have time to talk about, but that is barely the surface of sexism against the males in wow.

    [–]SituationSoap -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    You understand that fighting against sexism includes fighting against anti-male sexism and anti-female sexism, right? Hypermuscled males is just as much a problem as Sylvanas's chainmail bikini and nobody has argued otherwise.

    [–]dothandothan -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Interesting because the slightest objection hasn't been raised to the insane male models.

    If we are really interested in eliminating sexism, then, sexism against men would be a big deal. It clearly isn't judging by how the above model didn't even get a peep from the social justice warriors.

    [–]SituationSoap -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    So you're going to argue that nobody fights against the male models despite myself and adminbeast pointing out that there are just as many problems with the male models?

    Can you just take your persecution complex somewhere that people actually care?

    [–]dothandothan -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Such venomous words from someone who is supposedly trying to fight for fair play and equality.

    I'd love to hear you defend the male char. model's proportions but you won't do it. Because you can't defend it. It is a clear proof of sexism when its just a green tint and a height adjustment from being the hulk.

    You can't defend your views at this point and you are going to get mean and try to bully me with words like "persecution complex".

    Go on, give me your worst.

    [–]SituationSoap -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Why are men almost always the bad guys in blizzard games if we really want to ask interesting questions, are females less evil or is there some bias?

    Males in Blizzard games are almost always more assertive. This goes for the good guys and the bad guys. This is a pretty common social perspective; women are expected to be less assertive in general in western society. Since Blizzard's story lines tend to be very comic book-like, "bad guy" usually means someone who is assertive about what they want and willing to hurt other people to get it. "Good guy" means someone who is assertive about stopping said "bad guy" from getting what they want. (I use quotes in this case because when talking about comic story lines, "good guy" and "bad guy" are usually not quite as clear as they are in WoW).

    Since Blizzard (and most entertainment companies) are bad about writing assertive female characters, this means that female characters are going to be poorly utilized on both sides of the equation, which they are. It's gotten worse over the last couple of years as Blizzard's writing itself has gotten more sophomoric and come more closely to resemble very basic comic book story outlines.

    [–]Faux29 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Let's see...

    Garona, Alexstraza, Ysera, Lilian Voss, Tyrande, Lanathil, Sindragosa, Lady death whisper, Yu'lon, Chi'ji, Onyxia, Freya, Therazane, Whitemane, Staghelm's daughter in law, maexxna, faerilina, lady blameux, alysrazor, aki the chosen, sun tenderheart.

    Orcs - dragons - undead dragons - undead - elemental lord(lady?) - celestials - Titan constructs - night elves - champions of the light - spiders - cultists - dragon turned fire monster - death knights - protector of the vale - best pet trainer....

    I of course left out Jaina - Moria - Sylvanus etc

    Then there is my GM who is female - the number of female (in game gendered) player characters.

    There is the fact that we have what 13 races?

    [–]Leosthene -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    And then you got Ysera, Alexstrasa, Aggra, the two other windrunner sisters, Onyxia/lady prestor, Maiev... And as for color/race diversity, there is 13 playables races going from green to purple and a bunch of non playables ones. People who complain about diversity in wow are just overlooking half of the lore/game.

    [–]High Tinkeradminbeast -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

    there is 13 playables races going from green to purple and a bunch of non playables ones. People who complain about diversity in wow are just overlooking half of the lore/game.

    You did not just tell me that black people should quit whining because they can totally play as goblins.

    You did not.

    [–]Leosthene -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

    So i should start complaining because as horde i can't play a white caucasian? If black people want to play as black they sure can.