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[–]iambecomedeath7 26 ポイント27 ポイント

Gee, Ukraine. Way to make yourselves look like a vibrant and open minded democracy.

[–]nazgobius 5 ポイント6 ポイント

Communism is banned in many democratic countries.

[–]disgruntledeclipsusr 5 ポイント6 ポイント

He specified "vibrant and open minded" democracies.

[–]nazgobius -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

Not having communism brought to them by force by red army.

[–]analogtsar 8 ポイント9 ポイント

Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia to be more specific. And communist parties in those countries were banned in 1991, which is understandable, because those parties were direct descendants of CPSU. Nowadays all Baltic states have their own communist parties. Communist party of Ukraine, however, is a different entity, not associated with CPSU and it was created in 1993.

[–]fabis 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Wut? I live in one of those Baltic states, what are you even talking about? There are no Communist parties here, because they are rightfully banned...

[–]CheFlegel 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Yet some people still treat Nazi collaberators like heroes in the Baltic States. Even the German Kill Squad Officers noted how barbaric the Baltic popullation was in killing Jews and suspected communists. The Baltic History is far from the story of being opressed like you people like to drole on about.

[–]fabis 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Yet some people still treat Nazi collaberators like heroes in the Baltic States.

Where? I've lived here for my whole life and I've never seen anything like this. Technically you might be correct, because there are probably Nazis in every country (odds are there are because of the massive population), including every Socialist country. But my point is that it isn't something that many people do. Read my comment reply to another guy about this issue, it's complete bullshit.

[–]analogtsar 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Sure.

Latvia - successor party to the Communist Party of Latvia, which was banned in 1991. In essence, the party is communist

Lithuania - has communist roots and merged with communist LDDP in 2001.

Estonia.

Communism is not banned, what is banned are communist symbols. Banning political parties is not exactly how democracy works.

[–]fabis -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

Socialist party, not "Communist" party. There's a big difference there, even if they are actually communist. What matters is that they're at least hiding it...

[–]analogtsar 5 ポイント6 ポイント

They don't hide it. There is nothing to hide and they can't hide it, it is written in their manifests and programmes. For example, Latvian party openly says that they try to support and restore socialistic ideas after "counterrevolutionary bourgeois nationalist coup" in 1991. LSP are extreme-left conservative communists (page 4)

[–]Iron-born 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Why rightfully?

[–]fabis 0 ポイント1 ポイント

If you honestly think that Communism is a good thing, it's obvious that you haven't lived in a Soviet country. It's always the white, privileged people from first world countries living in nice suburban homes without a care in the world, that think so.

[–]ibrawest2[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント

The Soviet Union was neither communist nor socialist. If you make these things out to be so black and white you really need to study up on economics, politics, and history.

[–]Anterai 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Wait, Communism existed in the USSR? You people need to brush up on your history and economics.

USSR was socialist, with communism as an utopian goal. USSR never had communism.

[–]martong93 2 ポイント3 ポイント

If you're a bit educated then you know it isn't as simple as that. If you were actually from an EE country then you know that there are also a lot of mixed feelings behind the era and some of it's policies.

[–]fabis -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Yeah, people have mixed feelings about 20 million people getting killed under the USSR regime.

[–]martong93 3 ポイント4 ポイント

See, this is why it's important to understand history. If you weren't part of the 20 million, there might have been a few things that made your life easier rather than harder. If you were black and in the US South during the 50's, then you could say that you live in true oppression. However, the 50's were also a time of great growth, and for that generation life was damn better than that of the previous great depression generation. It's all relative.

Similar thing. Quality-of-life wise, Stalinism was vastly different than later regimes. You might have lived in a lot of fear under Stalin, but maybe you could afford a week-end house or the state pays for your daughter to go to medical school under Brezhnev. The first example was an extremely attainable and very common dream that a lot of the average, non-party member working citizens had. The second example was nothing short of miraculous if you were born a factory worker and all your ancestors were peasants before you.

Who are you to tell such a vast and varied group of people that their experiences were only negative? You have to just ask people's opinions on things. The truth is that it is a whole lot of gray, and it's brutish and intellectually dishonest to try to sell that shade of gray as either all black or all white.

[–]fabis -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

The second example never happened if you weren't a party member, because of the corruption. If you weren't a party member, you were just poor, working a job without any purpose (making rubber boots or whatever the government wanted people to do at the time, while people had to stand in huge lines for basic food). And yeah the education was really great in the USSR...

Obviously the experiences weren't only negative, but my point is that they were negative mostly and for most people.

[–]neoromantique 3 ポイント4 ポイント

I don't think you understand what communist party means in this day and age.

[–]DickMyAss 0 ポイント1 ポイント

That's why I don't south of Finland in the Baltics, Anyone with marxist views are likely to have the shit kicked out of them for simply existing by some skinhead mob

[–]fabis -5 ポイント-4 ポイント

Ironically, it's the other way around, because the only one who wants "the good old communism" back, is a degenerate drunk. Everyone else, who is intelligent and not a drunkard idiot, has lived through it (unlike you, living in your delusions without even having experienced it) and understands that the Cons heavily outweigh the Pros.

[–]senaya 3 ポイント4 ポイント

I believe you're talking about something completely different. If you believe that having marxist views jsut becasue Soviet Union existed at some point is a sign of imbecility, you are not any better than those whom you hate so much.

[–]fabis -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

Depends on how extreme these views are. Socialism and generally left-winged parties are common in Latvia. Around here, at least, with "Communist party" you mean extremely left-wing.

[–]analogtsar 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Marxist views are not equal to the "good old communism".

[–]Iron-born 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I don't think it is a good thing but that doesn't mean I want to ban it.

[–]fabis -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

I wouldn't care if it wouldn't affect the whole country. And I obviously don't want my country to go to shit, yet again.

[–]nazgobius 3 ポイント4 ポイント

In Poland too. In many EE countries communism symbols are prohibited same way as nazi symbols are. Both of this systems killed many people in the region so its understandable.

[–]Anterai 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Medals for fighting in the WW2 are banned because they contain USSR symbolics.
That's not nice

[–]neoromantique 2 ポイント3 ポイント

I almost got in huge trouble by wearing Lenin badge on my shirt in Lithuanian "Seimas". Good thing I've noticed in time.

[–]Seefor 2 ポイント3 ポイント

That is also incredibly foolish and offensive. Do you not know the history of Lithuania or how Lithuanians feel about the USSR? You might as well wear a Swastika in the Duma.

[–]neoromantique 2 ポイント3 ポイント

I'm lithuanian, I get to decide what and who I support. Lenin is not responsible for mass murdering or genocide, unlike Stalin or Hitler.

[–]Seefor 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Yes, but you don't get to decide how it is interpreted. And if you live in Lithuania, then you know full well how ethnic Lithuanians interpret it. And Lenin did fight a war against the newly independent Lithuania. Did you wear it on purpose to offend ethnic Lithuanians?

[–]neoromantique 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Į was born in Vilnius, so was my mother and father. Does that make me lithuanian enough to be allowed whether majority is right or not when I decide what and who I support and believe it?

If you really believe that history is untouched and has no room to interpretation and propaganda, you are delusional. Sorry.

[–]Psy1 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Lenin attacked Lithuania because its abused its right to seceded from Russia. Lenin's view on the national question was that in itself there was nothing wrong national movements but counter-revolutionary national movements couldn't be allowed as they will divide the working class. Thus from the POV of Lenin Lithuania could only be independent from Russia if it carriers on the revolution on its own.

[–]neoromantique 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I'm lithuanian, I get to decide what and who I support. Lenin is not responsible for mass murdering or genocide, unlike Stalin or Hitler.

[–]nazgobius 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I understand position of some SU WW2 veterans on that. But you have to understand positions of countries that suffered a lot under SU occupations, lost families at war against SU etc. Those symbols are insulting for them. Red army troops moving via EE where not most humane forces and their track record cannot be erased.

[–]Anterai 4 ポイント5 ポイント

SU soldiers stopped this from happening. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

Regarding poland, quoting:
"In 1941 it was decided to destroy the Polish nation completely and the German leadership decided that in 10 to 20 years the Polish state under German occupation was to be fully cleared of any ethnic Poles and settled by German colonists"

So much for "Thanks" as I see it.

[–]autowikibot 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Generalplan Ost:


The Generalplan Ost (GPO) (English: Master Plan East) was a secret Nazi German plan for the colonization of Central and Eastern Europe. Implementation would have necessitated genocide and ethnic cleansing on a vast scale to be undertaken in these European territories, occupied by Germany during World War II. It would have included the enslavement, expulsion, or extermination of most Slavic peoples in Europe. The plan, prepared in the years 1939–1942, was based on the policy of Lebensraum designed by Adolf Hitler and the Nazi movement, as well as being a fulfillment of the Drang nach Osten (English: Drive towards the East) ideology of German expansion to the east. As such, it was intended to be a part of the New Order in Europe.

Image i - Europe, with pre-World War II borders, showing the extension of the Generalplan Ost master plan. LEGEND: Dark grey – Germany (Deutsches Reich). Dotted black line – the extension of a detailed plan of the "second phase of settlement" (zweite Siedlungsphase). Light grey – planned territorial scope of the Reichskommissariat administrative units; their names in blue are Ostland (1941–1945), Ukraine (1941–1944), Moskowien (never realized), and Kaukasien (never realized).


Interesting: Nazi Germany | Adolf Hitler | Lebensraum | Operation Tannenberg

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[–]nazgobius -1 ポイント0 ポイント

You will never get thanks for that. Russians believe that war started in 1941 when in reality they were good alias and buddies with nazi Germany and together invaded in 1939. If SU would help Poland defend against nazi Germany instead of invading as an ally - many thanks would be given. My great grand-father (border guard) was not shot by Germans but Soviets in 1939. Should I say thanks? And so many years of communism and occupation?

[–]Psy1 2 ポイント3 ポイント

The USSR asked Britain and France for an alliance to defend Czechoslovakia from the Nazis yet in Munich they gave the Sudetenland to the Nazis (and if you call the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact and alliance then Munich was also an alliance since the British handed overseas assents of Czechoslovakia over to the Nazis).

[–]nazgobius -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Talking is cheap. Fact is that Poland first stood military against Germany. USSR was so eager to fight nazis that decided to join them. To further their defeat they also started mass deportations and killings in Poland. Way to go.

[–]Anterai -1 ポイント0 ポイント

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, named after the Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and the Nazi German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, officially the Treaty of Non-aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,[a] and also known as the Ribbentrop–Molotov Pact or Nazi–Soviet Pact, was a non-aggression pact signed in Moscow in the late hours of 23 August 1939.

Not allies.

"Thanks People of the Soviet Union for saving us from the Nazis. No thanks for the SU government who deported our people". Sounds reasonable?

[–]autowikibot 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact:


The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, named after the Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and the Nazi German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, officially the Treaty of Non-aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and also known as the Ribbentrop–Molotov Pact or Nazi–Soviet Pact, was a non-aggression pact signed in Moscow in the late hours of 23 August 1939.

The pact's publicly stated intentions were a guarantee of non-belligerence by either party towards the other and a commitment that neither party would ally itself to or aid an enemy of the other party. This latter provision ensured that Germany would not support Japan in its undeclared war against the Soviet Union along the Manchurian-Mongolian border, ensuring that the Soviets won the Battles of Khalkhin Gol.

In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol that divided territories of Romania, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland into Nazi and Soviet "spheres of influence", anticipating potential "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries. Thereafter, Germany invaded Poland on 1 September 1939. After the Soviet-Japanese ceasefire agreement took effect on 16 September, Stalin ordered his own invasion of Poland on 17 September. Part of southeastern (Karelia) and Salla region in Finland were annexed by the Soviet Union after the Winter War. This was followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina and the Hertza region.

Image i


Interesting: Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact negotiations | German–Soviet Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation and Demarcation | Timeline of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact | German–Soviet Axis talks

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[–]nazgobius 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Make sure you read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact#The_secret_protocol Anyway, you would be amazed how many well maintained Russian war cemeteries are in Poland. Near my home town there are even Russian WW1 cemeteries and people are lighting a candle from time to time there. All people I know recognize that some of those young boys where just young boys, nothing more. Its just common decency. But do not push it and demand any recognition because you have no moral stand to do so and it only makes people angry. SU killed way to many ppl here to deserve that.

[–]JoshuaIPE -1 ポイント0 ポイント

You realize you're not helping your cause, right? "You should be thankful!" you say, as you then try to wash away the pact between the Nazis and Soviets.

From your own link:

In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol that divided territories of Romania, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland into Nazi and Soviet "spheres of influence"

Thank you SU for taking over our countries and not killing all of us, just some of us!

[–]kornjacanasolji 1 ポイント2 ポイント

They are also banning TV stations that don't parrot their government's version of events.

[–]o1498 0 ポイント1 ポイント

for example?

[–]o1498 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Ah, I thought you meant Ukraine.

However, I agree with the idea of banning tv broadcasts that spread lies under the guise of news/talkshows/etc.

Don't want to be banned, don't lie.

[–]Rinnero -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

Anyone has doubts how Kiev will treat eastern regions if rebels surrender? Doubts how would have Kiev adressed the legitimate grievances of peaceful protesting easterners if there hadnt been a rebellion?

[–]Seefor 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Until now none of the fear mongering scenarios we have been presented for have turned out to be real. So yes, I have my doubts. The Communists sought to aid people engaged with treason and violence against the Ukrainian state, so of course they're likely candidates for being banned. They would be in any democratic state, including my own country Denmark.

If the East will have no parliamentarians elected who represent them in the new parliamentarian elections, then yes, you might have a point. But I highly doubt that.

[–]Anterai 0 ポイント1 ポイント

What about free speech?

[–]random_racoon 1 ポイント2 ポイント

So we switched theme from "they gonna execute everybody" to "they gonna shut up everybody"? Good. You're making a progress.

[–]Seefor 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Are you seriously going to argue that organisations that are engaged in treason and violent activites against the state should be protected by free speech?

[–]Anterai 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Arrest the traitors.
Banning political ideas/parties? that's too much

[–]Seefor 2 ポイント3 ポイント

They are not automatically banning a party because it is communist or socialist. They are attempting to ban this specific Communist party not because of its ideology, but because it is an organisation which has allegedly taken part in supporting treason and violence against the state. If those allegations are true, then the party can be banned in any democratic state.

Anyone is free to create a new Communist party and run for parliament if they so choose.

[–]Anterai 1 ポイント2 ポイント

If it's not the ideology but the actual party, then sure. Though again, why not arrest the traitors instead of banning the party?

[–]Psy1 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Did you hear the idea of innocent until proven guilty, meaning the Communist Party is innocent of treason until a court proves otherwise.

[–]Seefor 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Did you hear the idea of innocent until proven guilty, meaning the Communist Party is innocent of treason until a court proves otherwise.

Yes, did I state anywhere that I would want them banned without proof? On the contrary I wrote quite specifically in the very post that you replied to: "If those allegations are true, then the party can be banned in any democratic state."

[–]Psy1 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Yet until then that would mean they would the right to continue on with their business without hassle.

[–]o1498 0 ポイント1 ポイント

That's why they are filing the case in court.