evelynvincible:

re-make-lozootfan101:

evelynvincible:

re-make-lozootfan101:

evelynvincible:

re-make-lozootfan101:

liz011:

re-make-lozootfan101:

liz011:

re-make-lozootfan101:

liz011:

archmasterjazzy:

liz011:

Because there’s not enough going on the “Bolin hate” and “anti-Bolin” tags to keep me out of the Bolin tag, and I’ve been really bothered by how people have been responding to this.

The vast majority of posts I see discussing the kiss in The Sting are people…

Did I say he was being malicious?  No.  What I said was that his behavior was unacceptable, AND IT IS.  And yes, I have actually seen people defending Bolin’s behavior and arguing that we should forgive him simply because he didn’t *realize* he was doing something wrong.  Real-life rapists get away with actual rape because people manage to convince themselves that the rapist’s intent matters more than the victim’s trauma.  If his behavior is shown to be unacceptable in-universe, I’m fine with that, but my problem right now is the fandom’s reaction, because people seem to care primarily about arguing that Bolin hasn’t done anything wrong.  HE HAS.  Whether he meant to or not, no matter how “confused” he claims to have been, he kissed a person who had told him she did not want the kisses and was in a position where she could not get away, and that is not okay.  His intent, whatever it was, does not fix that.

Well, she wasn’t very traumatized, now was she. No question mark. That’s a legit statement. If she, the victim herself, really didn’t make a big deal out of it, considering she very civilly and nearly politely told him after the scene to stop, then maybe the fans shouldn’t either. Characters often do bad things as a way of learning from them, so the fact that people in this fandom don’t realize that it’s an open door for him to learn that he isn’t great with women bothers me a little. Everyone was protecting Bolin during his relationship with Eska but now they’re like “NOPE.” It’s exaggerating the points. Still, at the end of the day, Bolin is JUST A CHARACTER. Trying to view him in OUR universe changes things. Still, still,in my opinion, stamping the word “rape” on what he did goes too far. 

How exactly do you get to decide how traumatized she was?  Here’s a gif of the kiss:

Do you see how her body language changes when he kisses her?  Her whole body tenses up.  She balls her hands into fists.  That is not a person who is comfortable with that kiss.  After the kiss, Varrick rewarded Bolin by writing it into the script and Ginger got up and walked off screen.  For all you know, she could have gone back to her dressing room shaking and crying because Bolin was touching her in ways she wasn’t comfortable with and her boss was on Bolin’s side about it.  That is not a situation in which a person would be expected to feel safe.

Once again, my issue here is that the arguments people are using to defend Bolin are supporting rape culture.  I am willing to wait to see how this plays out before deciding whether it’s a problem in-universe, but it is already a problem in OUR universe because people are arguing that his ignorance/confusion/whatever excuses his actions.  This is a thing that people also say when defending rapists (again, in OUR universe).  The fact that Bolin is “just a character” doesn’t change the fact that the way people talk about his actions can contribute to rape culture.

Also, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RAPE AND RAPE CULTURE.  I did not say that he raped her.  I did say he sexually assaulted her, because he did.  Sexual assault is a more general term than rape, and covers things like unwanted groping and nonconsensual kisses.  Rape CULTURE is a culture that excuses and/or normalizes sexual violence and rape.  People have been excusing Bolin’s behavior and arguing that it’s a normal thing to do.  That is contributing to rape culture.

We CAN tell how traumatized she was because we saw her after the scene. That aside, have you ever been forced to kiss someone you don’t like necessarily? Like, say, and older relative on the lips? She was clearly annoyed and disgusted, yes, but she was calm when she approached him. Someone traumatized wouldn’t have been able to face his or her assailant calmly. Oh, and, actors improvise scenes all the time. If the director (in this case, the dickwad Varrick) thinks it fits, it gets written in anyway. Granted, it was an unprofessional and still incorrect move on both of their parts, it was valid at least in that degree.

I’m glad we both agree to wait until tomorrow or whenever the plot twists back on that side to make a final judgement, at least.

As for rape vs rape culture, rape it is pretty common. Not good for overall humanity, but neither is war. It happens anyway, just as murder does. Yes, people get away with it more often than they should, and that’s bad. I get that point, but what are you trying to do, sweep it under the rug? Clumping his actions together with “rape” culture seems too far-fetched, and I may just be speaking based on my own experience. See, “rape” is a very foul, strong word. Pink is closer to red than black, you know. Call it as it is at all times, “sexual assault,” not “rape.” Doesn’t “sexual assault culture” sound much more fitting in this case?

We saw her reaction immediately after it happened in an environment where she had no reason to believe that anybody present cared about how she felt about it.  I don’t know about you, but I wouldn’t be inclined to show any sort of emotional vulnerability in that situation.  Not showing emotional vulnerability in the five seconds after it happened in an unsafe environment doesn’t mean she’s not traumatized.

And no, I’ve never been forced to kiss a relative on the lips, because that’s really damn intimate.  At most, I’ve been expected to hug relatives I only see a couple times a year, and I have the good fortune to not have any relatives who make me feel unsafe with that level of physical contact.  However, relatives are also not the only people I’ve ever interacted with.  I have been in situations where a male acquaintance who was significantly bigger and stronger than I am has made me uncomfortable during a hug, by not letting me move away when I wanted to or by making sexual comments about it.  And I am lucky enough to have friends who recognize that that’s not okay and would let me know ahead of time whether that acquaintance was around so I could avoid him.  Nobody ever tried to defend it as “just a hug” or anything like that; what mattered was that I was uncomfortable.  My friends are great.

A kiss on the mouth is significantly more than a hug, and Ginger was obviously uncomfortable about it.  Her coworkers are significantly less great than my friends and are not taking her feelings into account.  If they don’t care when it’s “just a kiss,” who’s to say they’d care if it escalates?  Would she feel safe telling people it had escalated when so far everyone had been on Bolin’s side?  Would they continue to tell her that he was confused and it was her fault for sending mixed signals?  These are things actual rape victims have to deal with, and that is why defending a character who has committed sexual assault is contributing to RAPE culture, and why we’re not just calling it “sexual assault culture.”

I know that rape is a strong word.  I know that it’s an awful thing.  But contrary to what you may believe, the majority of rapists are not scary men hiding in dark alleys.  They are people the victim knows.  They are people the victim has interacted with before.  And they test the waters to see what they can get away with before escalating things.  Silencing people when they complain about more “minor” sexual assaults like this kiss enables rapists to escalate things because their victims learn not to say anything about it.  And before you try to argue against me or police my language again, please actually take the time to read up on what rape culture is so you know what my argument is.

Ah, sorry, the episode came out nearly a week ago so forgive me for not consistantly re-watching for close detail, but let me point out that she is an actress and probably worked in similar category before the movers and therefore probably had to kiss co-stars before in plays or broadway or something.

I live in the southern United States, so kissing relatives is a thing kind of but not in the weird way really more of a family kiss and there is a difference but it’s still uncomfortable but almost required etiquette.

You take life too seriously if you get upset over hugs. Hugs are supposed to be fun and cute and friends are supposed to be able to joke with each other and not take it personally. Maybe this is just my friends and I, but I have doubts on that, but we throw insults at each other playfully and without meaning as well as bring up embarrassing topics on purpose. Does that make us a part of some “rape culture”? Is everything done to somebody that they don’t want part of “rape culture”? IMO if people pick with you like that, they’re comfortable around you. It should be taken as a compliment. Then again, if there is legitimately something wrong with them, then and only then do I wanna hear you start whining.

I still completely disagree with the term “rape culture.” It makes me sick. Again, and I’ll make it easy to see this time. PINK IS CLOSER TO RED THAN BLACK.Do you understand what that means? It means you’re making mountains out of molehills. Sure, one thing can lead to another, but saying “I could kill you” and then planning it are still very different than actually killing. Do you follow that logic? Do I have to explain it to you like a child? It isn’t rape until it’s rape. Sure, in some cases, it can be prevented, but sadly for the victim, the victim has to have the heart to say something first. Hoping someone else will notice won’t always work. Please, sit down and quiet down. Your over-exaggeration is giving me a headache. Gods, this reminds me of the feminazis. (Shivers)

1. Kissing a co-star, scripted and on-screen, is not the same as being kissed by a co-star unexpectedly, especially when the co-star is kissing you, yourself, as him, himself.
   Bolin was not performing Nuktuk kissing Ginger’s character; Bolin was kissing Ginger from his own desire and edification.
2. Being expected to kiss relatives (even if you don’t particularly want to) is not the same as having someone force a sexual kiss on you when you when you are not in a position to avoid them or resist.
   Bolin’s kiss was not platonic or familial. It was sexual. That alone puts it in a different category from the kisses you are talking about.
   There is also the difference of whether you are being socially pressured or physically forced. You can choose to or not to give into social pressure; you are not always able to effectively resist physical force.
3. Some hugs are inappropriate. Most hugs are friendly, and sometimes it’s okay to make a sexual or violent joke if that is the kind of relationship you have with a person. 
   But it isn’t unreasonable to feel uncomfortable if someone you don’t know well or aren’t very close with lingers in a hug, feels you up, or says something suggestive to you. 
   Just because they feel comfortable doing that doesn’t mean I feel comfortable with it. If I am not comfortable with certain levels of physical contact, and someone persists in touching me, they are doing something wrong.
   Other people are not entitled to touch me just because they want to.People are allowed to set their own boundaries, and those boundaries should be respected.
4. Making a joke with your friends is not necessarily “rape culture.” You can say something playful and suggestive to your friends if that is the relationship you and your friends have.
   That doesn’t make it okay to make comments like that to people you don’t have that type of relationship with, and it doesn’t mean people who don’t like those kinds of jokes are wrong or uptight.
   
   It’s also worth noting that Bolin does not have any kind of relationship with Ginger besides that they are coworkers. Even if Bolin were known to make sexual jokes with his friends, it would still be inappropriate for him to make sexual advances on Ginger.
   Forcing sexual contact on someone who doesn’t want it is sexual assault, and trying to justify the assailant’s actions is part of rape culture.
5. You can not like the term “rape culture” all you like, but what you are doing is making excuses for people committing sexual assault.
   Rape is one form of sexual assault.
   One of the many reasons victims don’t “say something first” to “prevent their rape” is because of people like you who are insisting that setting boundaries, voicing objections to certain kinds of contact, and pointing out that this kind of sexual entitlement that leads to rape, are making mountains out of molehills. 
   People are commenting on what Bolin did to Ginger because we see this kind of behavior every day. It is not at all unusual for people to get away with abuse because people who witness it don’t say anything, and the victims feel as though they cannot say anything.
   Ginger is at work. She is an actress. It is not difficult in the performing world to get labeled as “difficult to work with,” or “uncooperative.” Her boss has already expressed that he loves what Bolin did; he isn’t likely to help her if she tells him Bolin’s behavior is making her feel uncomfortable or unsafe.
   This happens to victims in the real world all the time.
   Victims of abuse and assault don’t tell their friends because they don’t want to make waves in the group, or they don’t want to risk their friends choosing their assailant over them.
   They don’t want to tell the police because the justice system makes such a habit of blaming victims — what were you wearing, why were you there, why didn’t you tell anyone when this first started happening? 
   
   What you are doing is victim blaming. You are acting as though the victim of rape or sexual assualt should have done more to protect herself, but then you object to the ways in which other people choose to protect themselves.
   
   If you have a bigger problem with the term “rape culture” than you do with sexual assault and victim blaming, then I have a fucking problem with you.

Ugh, I told myself I wasn’t going to fucking respond to this again. I’m about 9000% done with this bullshit. Listen here, if something can be done, do it. As shitty as that sounds of me, it doesn’t make me a bad person. If you’re so fucking uncomfortable, lock yourself in a fucking room then. Have no contact you can’t handle. Boo friggidy whoo. Some people are touchy, some aren’t. If you’re uncomfortable but you want to be a functional part of society, assert yourself and say so. Don’t let people walk all over you or push you around. If Ginger is sooooooo fucking botheredlike you say, then she can just quit. Quit the movers.

Do I need to re-iterate that I said what I did based on my experiences?Bravery isn’t keeping it in, it’s being scared to death and doing the right thing anyway. Failing to do so in the light of fear is only cowardice. Oh my fucking god, did I just call innocent people cowards? Yes. All humans are cowards. It’s nothing to be ashamed of, really. Only pitiable, and I’d rather not pity. I would personally rather show a victim the road to recovery with encouragement (albeit I am a tough-lover kind of person and I don’t have the ability to be very gentle) than look down on them and harper them with “I can’t believe they did that to you, it must be so hard,” because that does more damage.

Yes, I’m harsh in saying  ALL OF that, but you miss my point, which originates back to LoK. We stilldon’t know for a solid fact if Bolin isn’t going to change and apologize or even if Ginger was very traumatized. You all are ASSUMINGthat. THAT IS WHERE I HAVE A FUCKING PROBLEM. You’re pinning all your social justice on something that isn’t solid. Ooooh, wassat? Innocent until proven guilty. Until something is legit done in the series, I’ll hold my stance.

Everyone responding to you has said that they do assert themselves. We don’t accept hugs from people we don’t want to hug. We tell people not to touch us or invade our space. 
YOU are the one saying that other people have the right to (and we should be flattered if they do) touch us without our consent, and that WE are the problem if we don’t like it.

Are you seriously advocating that people should just quit their jobs if they have an abusive coworker?
Because most decent people agree that the person creating the issue — the person making inappropriate comments or advances — should be the one punished, not the victim of said advances.
It is not Ginger’s fault that Bolin is a fucking asshole.

And, yeah, you’re right, we don’t know what will happen with Bolin.
What we do know is that people like you are so obsessed with defending Bolin’s sexual assault that you can’t even consider that what he did is wrong.

Every other time someone gets inappropriately touchy in LOK or A:TLA there is an immediate negative response, and the assailant is apologetic. It is immediately shown that what they did is not okay, and there is immediate resolution.
Ginger gave an immediate negative response, and Bolin blamed her for sending mixed signals.

Without ANY FURTHER DEVELOPMENT in this story, Bolin assaulted a coworker, was rebuffed, and then defended his actions.
And you’re sitting there saying, WELL, WE DON’T KNOW IF HE’S GOING TO RAPE HER. As if the fact that he hasn’t raped her yet, or the fact that all he did was kiss her without her consent while she was restrained on a table at her place of work, makes what he did not that bad.

Regardless of anything else that happens between Bolin and Ginger, regardless of what Ginger is shown to feel about it (which you seem to really not care about), and regardless of whether or not Bolin apologizes, what he did was sexual assault, was inappropriate, and was absolutely that bad.
This is not a drill: What we saw Bolin actually do onscreen was sexual assault. I repeat, this is not a drill.

So, yes, you sound like a bad person. You sound like an unempathetic victim blamer who is more offended by people talking about sexual assault than the fact that sexual assault exists.

Would you stop pinning the words of your people on me? It’s okay for me to have harsh opinions. If, by some weird way, you really are above uncomfortable, then by all means, YES it’s okay to set boundaries that fucking high *raises hand as far up as it’ll go*. If I have to, I’ll bow my head in apology for always assuming that people don’t really need help until they do. If you’re scared, that’s one thing, uncomfortable in my vocabulary is quite another. 

I say what I did because it’s obvious that she isn’t respected and that she exactly doesn’t deserve that, so why the bloody hell would she still work for them? Had I been in charge, I would have an open connection with the crew and cut the scene to talk to each party individually. Oh noes, you’re going to think I’m a horrible person again, but I’d probably wind up just telling Bo that one more finger on her out of place and he’s out. Apparently this supports “rape culture” because I’m trusting and leaving it open to happen again?

To clarify, I never said what Bo did was okay so much as offer reasons why it happened. I don’t think anyone is really saying that it was. You just take those little reminders of what led up to it and take it as an attack. Am I really so horrible after all?

What “words of my people” am I pinning on you? 

Here’s an interesting tidbit: I don’t have to be “beyond uncomfortable” to set a boundary. If I am not comfortable with the way someone is touching me or talking to me, I am within my rights to tell them to stop. I do not have to wait until I feel actively afraid for my safety to tell someone “no.”
Interesting thing about rape culture: if someone who initially only made me uncomfortable eventually assaults me, the odds are good that people will blame me. I knew this person made me uncomfortable, so why was I still around them? Why didn’t I tell them to back off when it first started?
But, then again, there are people who think that me setting a boundary is overreactive misandrist bullshit.

Ginger may still want to work for Varrick for a thousand reasons.
At the very least, Ginger may love acting and working on movers, and just not like working with Bolin. If you loved the work you were doing, would you quit (and risk not being able to find work in your field again) just because of a problem coworker?
It’s possible Varrick “discovered” Ginger; he may be responsible for all her success, and she may feel indebted to him. We’ve seen from his interactions with Asami and Bolin that that is a tactic Varrick uses: he gives people what he knows they want in order to earn loyalty.
And, admittedly, that is speculation. We don’t know anything about Ginger’s origins or her motives.
But that doesn’t mean it’s fair to suggest that she should quit her job over this, because for many people that simply isn’t feasible.

Actually, your “if i were in charge” ramble ISN’T supporting “rape culture.” You are talking about a situation in which the person in charge tells Bolin he crossed a line and gives a warning about consequences.
But the fact remains that Varrick witnessed what happened and witnessed Ginger’s reaction and did not express any negative opinions about what Bolin did.
So your “if I were the boss” does not describe what actually happened in the show, and doesn’t condone any of the excuses you’ve been making for Bolin in this entire exchange.

And don’t give me this bullshit about how you “weren’t saying it was okay.” 
The “reasons” you have been giving for what Bolin did have been trying to ameliorate how awful it was.
You said that Ginger wasn’t traumatized, when literally all we have seen of her response was her being angry about it and walking offscreen. And you meant it as “what Bolin did wasn’t that bad, because his victim wasn’t that upset about it.”
You tried to make the excuse that “characters do bad things so they can learn from them,” even though so far Bolin hasn’t learned anything, has resisted any negative reaction to what he did, and yet you expect people to stop being mad that he sexually assaulted a coworker because maybe he’ll learn from it later.

And even if I take your word for it that you haven’t been trying to defend Bolin and that’s all one big misunderstanding, you have still repeatedly blamed Ginger for what happened to her. You have used our complete lack of knowledge about Ginger’s character to make excuses for Bolin. You literally said “She wasn’t very traumatized now, was she.”
You talked shit about how the FANDOM is inconsistent because first we were mad about Eska abusing Bolin, but now we say Bolin is abusing Ginger. Hon, that isn’t the fandom being inconsistent. That’s Bolin going from victim to abuser, and the fandom didn’t create that.

What I saw “leading up to the attack” was Bolin being infatuated with a pretty woman, making a comment about their chemistry, being shut down, and then assaulting that same woman when she was unable to escape him and in her place of work. After that attack, the woman shut him down again, and he shouted after her as she walked away that it had happened because she was sending mixed signals.
Your reasons for why it happened — that he was confused, that he’s bad with girls, that he doesn’t understand “acting,” that it was improv — are not news to anyone.
We know.
Do you really think that we’re sitting here saying “BOLIN PLOTTED TO RAPE GINGER HE IS A CRIMINAL MASTERMIND”?
We watch the show. Bolin couldn’t “mastermind” his way out of a paper bag. He’s hapless and incompetent, but that doesn’t preclude him from committing acts of violence.

Whatever excuses people are making for Bolin (and most people saying “HE WAS CONFUSED HIS INTENT WASN’T BAD” do mean “what he did wasn’t that bad”) they are making excuses for him. As though what he intended or what he thought he was doing changes the fact that what he actually did was sexual assault.

And that is the only point OP and I are trying to make: Bolin sexually assaulted Ginger. Do not pass go, do not collet $200. 

If you are in agreement that what Bolin did was 100% wrong (and 100% not Ginger’s fault) then I honestly don’t understand what you are arguing about.

PS - I only jumped on the “you are a bad person” bandwagon when YOU started saying “this probably makes me sound like a bad person.” Because from what you were saying, you do sound like a bad person. And you can hold whatever harsh, unkind, unsympathetic opinions you want, but it doesn’t mean I have to like you or what you say.

I said words of your people because I don’t believe in victim-blaming cunts that promote rape culture, to sum up just about everything you’ve said put together (including the .gif). I’ll keep this response concise to reduce any further confusion. Yes, what Bo did was 100% wrong and he deserves punishment, BUT because we all don’t know much about Ginger’s character, as you said, her entire character is mostly in speculation, and I see her as simply annoyed and someone who has probably dealt with this harassment before Bolin and is simply putting up with it to keep her role. To simplify further, let me just say that no human being is ever 100% innocent, however that is not saying that they deserved what happened to them by any means nor that I am condoning the sexual assault itself. Granted, much of what I have said directly to you and about your preferences of what is “uncomfortable” have been rather rude and I am sorry. It was both crossing a very big bold line of nope and selfish of me to take my frustration out on you. Simply because I’ve never felt that kind of uncomfortable I can’t relate to it, therefore I can’t say that I understand anything but the concept. My own vocabulary is skewed by my opinions and for me “uncomfortable” is not a strong word. Perhaps my “uncomfortable” is your “awkward,” but on a slightly less intense note, and your “uncomfortable” is my “anxious.” In which case, I admit my wrongs. This argument has been redundant and got personal needlessly. I’m at fault for not condensing this important information and keeping it unsaid.