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Neil Gaiman: "I'm obviously pissed at Amazon...Books are sacred. And I think that when you are selling books, you have to remember that in all the profits and loss, in all of that, you are treading on sacred ground." (salon.com)
submitted 21 時間 前 by WanderingPrimateOne Hundred Years of Solitude
[–]Mafiosa-Minded 231 ポイント232 ポイント233 ポイント 20 時間 前
Can somebody ELI5 on this whole amazon vs. book publisher scenario?
[–]Whadios 532 ポイント533 ポイント534 ポイント 19 時間 前
It's just negotiation between two huge companies, one distributor, one supplier, over pricing and cuts. That's all it is but people are making it out to be something else for some reason.
Amazon wants to sell lower prices, possibly wants slightly larger cut. Publisher wants higher prices and higher cut. Both can't agree so Amazon has cut distribution of their product until a deal is reached. It would be like if Walmart was having a dispute with Pepsi Co over pricing to put their product on the shelves.
[–]-spartacus- 366 ポイント367 ポイント368 ポイント 19 時間 前
I think you have to put it out there the that the publisher in question was part of group of publishers and Apple the Justice Department "convicted" for price collusion / price fixing. (Trying to create a monopoly). They got their hands slapped real hard.
Of course you can't say Amazon is always 100% the good guy in this scenario, but ultimately they have been pushing for standard prices much lower than what publishers want (which is why they tried to collude with Apple to increase the price artificially), especially for eBook pricing.
There are very few publishers that exist and those that are around now have gobbled up all other smaller ones, including those for academia, such as text books and scientific journals. The prices have gone up so much that many schools and libraries have been forced to create coops in which they share a single book or license with dozens to hundreds of other schools.
Ultimately this comes down to a group of corporations that are abusing their market dominance to sell their product at a higher artificial price versus another corporation using their market position to negotiate lower prices to drive more sales (getting people to buy more books makes them more likely to use Amazon for other things).
[–]CopernikeplerTwenty Years After 155 ポイント156 ポイント157 ポイント 18 時間 前
The prices have gone up so much that many schools and libraries have been forced to create coops
Just want to throw this out there -- These scandals are why everyone should support Open Educational Resources such as OpenStax College.
[–]Phyfador 48 ポイント49 ポイント50 ポイント 16 時間 前
My daughter goes to a major university in Florida. Every semester, they list the books you HAVE to have in the latest editions. The school itself has an agreement with the publishers and most of the books are upwards of 80 bucks. Thing is, you can preorder or order the first day of class but that does not mean you will get the book. She has had whole semesters where she didn't get the book til the end or, in one case, after the class has ended. Paid for in full and now useless because she can't sell it as the next class they need the newest edition. Total scam. We did some research and found out that most of the newest editions were available in e-book on Amazon. We still have to pay a lot, but it is cheaper than the real thing and she is able to get them. I bought a kindle for myself because I can get cheaper books. I understand the publishers' point of view, but I'm not rich. This may be unpopular but I'm not rich and I love to read. There is a very real market for Amazon to cater to and it's people like me. Why would I pay $29.95 for a book that I can get for $10.99 in an instant? I am a consumer and I'll look out for the best deal. It's their fault if they don't adapt and change with the market.
[–]DramaticGinger 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 15 時間 前
Which university? If you don't mind. Im heading to one soon and don't want to walk into a money trap
[–]whatever567throwaway 30 ポイント31 ポイント32 ポイント 7 時間 前
All of them
[–]Phyfador 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 14 時間 前
University of Central Florida. Good school but full of money traps such as $50 parking permits, $50 something else for being on campus, and $50 for the test taking clickers all each semester. The book thing made me boil over though-you have to pay up front and then NOT get it? Also, food plan $3000. She lives off campus and eats ramen noodles a lot so I'm not sure of dorm fees and such.
[–]sakebomb69Garfield Goes to Hawaii 17 ポイント18 ポイント19 ポイント 14 時間 前
such as $50 parking permits
Bwahahahaaahahaa! Someone has never parked at any University of California campus, have they?
[–]Phyfador 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 14 時間 前
No, lol. Sorry for you, though. To be fair, it ends up being $100 per semester and half the time they're isn't any parking.
[–]sakebomb69Garfield Goes to Hawaii 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 13 時間 前
When I was in school during the 90's, it was $110 per quarter. I can't even imagine what it is now.
[–]berrieh 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 10 時間 前*
Honestly, it's like this at so many universities, from what I hear (I went to UF awhile back and had similar fees, though some were included in tuition as "fees" and might be less noticeable - not so when your scholarship pays proper tuition but not outright fees, though I had a stipend for those)... I'm not discounting your experience by any means, but I'm not sure if one can avoid it. Maybe at the really pricey ones? (But then you're paying a lot anyway, and even some of those have that problem.)
When we're talking about educational publishing, not only are they engaging in some terrible practices at the college level, but at the K-12 level. My district finally got a decent curriculum where the cost might be "worth" it but what we were buying before - new copies each year because it was "consumable" and illegal for us to re-use copies - was costing massive amounts of funds for resources crappier than I could copy/paste from the internet (mostly test prep 24/7) that it was well known no decent teacher in the country truly used most of, and our school had no say. School board makes the deals. Publishing companies donate to people who run for school board/superintendent. We only have a decent program now because of Common Core, grassroots information to parents who gave a stink, and a bit of luck.
[–]NorwegianWood28 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 9 時間 前
I'm not rich and I love to read.
libraries?
[–]coheir 27 ポイント28 ポイント29 ポイント 17 時間 前*
Oh my goodness! I love you! I' ve been looking for resources to self-educate myself and I can't believe I haven't stumbled upon this before. Can you provide a list with more resources online? Right now I'm using (obviously) Wikipedia, BBC bitesize, futurelearn and OCWs. Edit: here in Iran all k-12 books are published by government and are available free of charge in their website ( http://chap.sch.ir/ ). Is it the case in other countries? Especially English speaking countries.
[–]deadmandreaming 11 ポイント12 ポイント13 ポイント 17 時間 前
iTunes U offers a lot of free courses and resources as well.
[–]atakomuFantasy 11 ポイント12 ポイント13 ポイント 15 時間 前
There are a lot of free courses online now: Coursera, Edx, Udemy, P2PU and of course Khan academy which is not a course but video knowledge database kinda.
[–]CopernikeplerTwenty Years After 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 16 時間 前
With regards to America, no you usually cannot go and download the texts. That's part of the push of OERs, to lower the cost and make the texts more widely available.
I probably don't have any more resources for you, sorry :3
I mainly stick to khan academy and OCW myself.
[–]OffhandOnion 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 14 時間 前
Check out /r/LIY (Learn It Yourself) for more links like above
[–]i_Got_Rocks 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 16 時間 前
Harvard and plenty of other universities offer free online lectures from professors. The down-side is that they may refer to readings in books that you have to buy yourself.
Also, buying outdated editions of books helps a lot. (just not too outdated)
One edition behind the current edition published is usually not too bad.
[–]coheir 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 14 時間 前
Yep! I was pretty excited about edX till an email popped up in my inbox about having to buy textbook.
[–]nebulousmenace 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 15 時間 前
OCW's being MIT's Open Course Ware? Yup, good stuff.
[–]CopernikeplerTwenty Years After 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 13 時間 前
Oh looks like I lied -- This was the best resource for mathematics material I've ever found
[–]EmpororPenguin 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 9 時間 前
Right now I'm using (obviously) Wikipedia,
kek
[–]painsofbeing 17 ポイント18 ポイント19 ポイント 17 時間 前
Hachette and the other publishers settled with the government before the case went to trial (with the classic denial of guilt but agreement to settle to avoid the cost and risk of a trial). Apple was the only one that took the case to trial and lost, and they're still battling with the judge over the punishment and terms.
[–]M0dusPwnens 23 ポイント24 ポイント25 ポイント 15 時間 前*
My understanding is that part of the settlement involved agreeing that they wouldn't do it anymore though.
And, big coincidence, this "public outrage" over Amazon is apparently appearing just as that part of the agreement is ending.
Edit: I just looked it up. "For two years, Settling Defendants shall not restrict, limit, or impede an E-book Retailer’s ability to set, alter, or reduce the Retail Price of any E-book or to offer price discounts or any other form of promotions to encourage consumers to Purchase one or more E-books, such two-year period to run separately for each E-book Retailer"
That two years just ended.
[–]painsofbeing 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 14 時間 前
The illegal part is conspiring with other publishers to all use the agency model. That's the collusion/price-fixing allegations. The agency model (publisher/rightsholder sets a defined price and the retailer gets a percentage of it) is legal on its own. Part of the settlement also involved limits on how much the retailer (e.g. Amazon) could discount the eBook, to eliminate the predatory pricing that helped Amazon have a 90% market share of eBooks before 2011. So my guess is that Hachette is trying to push back towards agency/control, and Amazon wants to eliminate any limits on discounting.
[–]M0dusPwnens 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 14 時間 前
I haven't seen any indication that Amazon wants to eliminate any limits on discounting (or any reason why they would want to do so).
They had already stopped selling at a loss before that decision came in. The initial pricing was pretty clearly a bid to increase sales of the Kindle (sort of a reverse of the situation with video game consoles, which are universally sold at a staggering loss). They ended virtually the instant that the Kindle started facing serious competition.
[–]Catullus____ 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 12 時間 前
The illegal part is conspiring with other publishers to all use the agency model. That's the collusion/price-fixing allegations. The agency model (publisher/rightsholder sets a defined price and the retailer gets a percentage of it) is legal on its own.
My recollection is that horizontal collusion between publishers to fix retail prices is, as you said, going to be per se illegal (that is, always illegal no matter what justifications the companies offer). But I don't think that makes the agency pricing model per se lawful when used unilaterally by one company -- rather, such pricing can be lawful (it receives "rule of reason" treatment rather than being per se illegal), but only if the producer seeking to fix retail prices can offer some pro-competitive justification.
[–]GiantFlyingSquirrel 57 ポイント58 ポイント59 ポイント 17 時間 前
This is pretty standard in all retail. If you have a significant disagreement with a supply, it's not uncommon to stop carrying their item. Only power that retailers have in negotiating with these entities is how they choose to display the items in their marketplace or if they will sell them at all.
I remember a story of a great store in LA where a gentleman sells 100s of varieties of soda from around the world. It all happened one day because Pepsi Cola was dictating to him how he HAD to display their products in his store. Eventually he told them "Thank you very much Pepsi Cola for reminding me that I own my shelf space and I can do anything I want." And stopped carrying their products. Pepsi Cola told him "Well you can't do that, Pepsi Cola is a demand item and your customers are going to demand that you carry Pepsi Cola". After that he went out to find alternative sodas to sell, and the rest is history.
Book publishers have monopolies on IPs. If you want a book, they are the sole source and can dictate to you. Amazon is using their only option to combat that. If they weren't willing to stop carrying books from publishers, they would have zero negotiating power. Because Amazon sells so many books, if a publisher can dictate a price to Amazon, they can dictate to the whole market.
Amazon is clearly doing the right thing for themselves AND consumers.
[–]magmabrew 12 ポイント13 ポイント14 ポイント 16 時間 前
LA where a gentleman sells 100s of varieties of soda from around the world
THANK YOU for this. I LOVE custom sodas. I go to BevMo for Faygo all the time. I will be going to Galco's very soon.
[–]GiantFlyingSquirrel 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 10 時間 前
You're welcome! I've always wanted to go, but never had the chance when I'm in LA.
[–]universal_straw 66 ポイント67 ポイント68 ポイント 19 時間 前
If that's all it is then I don't see what Amazon is doing wrong.
[–]curtisdelsol 110 ポイント111 ポイント112 ポイント 19 時間 前
I work in publishing. As much as I know Amazon will probably put my company out of business in the long term, they are right. The price is too damn high for the books.
There is clear and obvious collusion in the market place and the publishing companies have huge and unnecessary overhead that they are fighting to protect. I am part of that of course but in the end of the day my entire company just exists to act as an editor and gate keeper. Long ago the ability to print and actually manufacturing books has been outsourced and changed. Long ago the living wage advances that enabled a talented unpublished writer to write a book dried up.
Amazon thinks they can do that better. In the end of the day this is the face of global capitalism, it doesn't take into consideration the sacredness of books or corporate overhead careers.
[–]PoonGnarfler 152 ポイント153 ポイント154 ポイント 18 時間 前
In the end of the day this is the face of global capitalism, it doesn't take into consideration the sacredness of books or corporate overhead careers.
WTF is this "sacredness of books" schlock that keeps coming up? Amazon is trying to sell books. Sorry that it's at a lower price point than publishers want, but this is not Fahrenheit 451.
These bullshit catchphrases that everyone seems to use are so goddamn annoying. At least Blockbuster didn't whine about "the sacredness of DVDs" when they went out of business.
[–]curtisdelsol 45 ポイント46 ポイント47 ポイント 18 時間 前
I just wrote that because of Neil Gaiman's quote in the article. It is obviously silly.
I would suggest there is a sacredness to ideas and thought but that has nothing to do with book retailing.
[–]Tipman79 24 ポイント25 ポイント26 ポイント 17 時間 前
If anything, the "sacredness of books" should be a catchphrase that Amazon is using. If they're so sacred, authors and publishers should be trying their hardest to get them into the hands of as many people as possible. Particularly people that can't afford them at the prices publishers want.
[–]sixby6 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 14 時間 前
This. "Artists" whining that the general public doesn't put the same value on their work as they do, so expecting artificial pricing mechanisms to protect their income. As for the publishers? Sorry, you didn't add enough to the product, and technology has made you obsolete.
"Sacredness of Books" = Pretentious Dickwad Elitist whinery.
[–][deleted] 18 ポイント19 ポイント20 ポイント 18 時間 前
And I guess VHS tapes were sacred as well? And DVDs?
Let's talk like adults here without nonsense language.
[–]CaptainKirk76 12 ポイント13 ポイント14 ポイント 17 時間 前
Some books can be sacred works of art, in my opinion, but those fat leather bound beautiful bastards also aren't sold along side 50 shades of Neverwhere on Walmartazon.com. So as an adult I think there is a place for both, and Gaiman is conflating the two. Pulp shit doesn't become the Geographia Cosmographia just because its publisher or author wants it to be, and that's where the silly is getting pumped in.
[–]valkyrio 24 ポイント25 ポイント26 ポイント 18 時間 前*
I absolutely love Neil Gaiman and his wife. But I think he's wrong.
He apparently doesn't realize publishers are in for it for the money as much as Amazon is.
[–]vickydrake 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 10 時間 前
I'm sure he does, but his thinking is probably, "More money for my publisher means more money for me. More money for Amazon means more money for Jeff Bezos."
Whether it's accurate or smart is another question.
[–]The_Beer_Hunter 52 ポイント53 ポイント54 ポイント 19 時間 前*
Yeah - I'm a voracious reader, but I think it gets a little silly to want an industry that needs profits to survive to treat books as somehow outside the market. The system is just changing. Music artists are shifting how they make money (streaming and more concerts, not CDs), and authors and publishers will, too.
EDIT: Here is a citation from Time on artists making millions in royalties (note: this means money NOT split among distributors, manufacturers, etc.). We can say it's still imperfect, but it's really just a different industry model - and in my opinion, much better for the consumer.
Markets change, and consumer demand changes. History is littered with stories of the talented genius whose work (books, art, music) is never mass-produced and therefore never appreciated. This is the new business model. Maybe John Grisham will continue to make millions, and maybe he won't, but the lower entry barrier means we may discover new writers who can work without the promise of millions, and won't need an official publisher to put their work on Amazon.
[–]DrEagleclaw 24 ポイント25 ポイント26 ポイント 17 時間 前
Here is a citation from Time on artists making millions in royalties
That does not appear to be a list of artists making millions.
And while you said "artists making millions in royalties (note: this means money NOT split among distributors, manufacturers, etc.)”
The article said "Note that these are the total royalty payments split between record labels, music publishers, songwriters and artists.”
Who are you trying to trick!!
[–]TorontoWordGirl 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 10 時間 前
I think it gets a little silly to want an industry that needs profits to survive to treat books as somehow outside the market. The system is just changing. Music artists are shifting how they make money (streaming and more concerts, not CDs), and authors and publishers will, too.
True enough. The problem (as I see it) is that publishers essentially provide the standard for books. People accepted reality TV, which was more profitable for TV producers, and they're starting to accept self-published books (50 Shade of Grey, etc.). If Amazon pushes the publishers out (which looks like the eventual reality), books are going to suck. And it will be very hard for readers to tell good/vetted books from bad ones (people have access to millions of books!).
Publishing isn't perfect, but things will get worse. There will be internet-quality content available that readers may presume is accurate (either in grammar or facts, etc.) because it's in book format. When readers see books, they see "by Neil Gaiman" (etc.) and don't realize that x number of other people helped turn out the final product, including the final text.
If there aren't any publishers, authors will have to foot the bill for production costs. Books that are well-done may be crowd-sourced, or become the leisure activity of the wealthy, because they aren't cheap to make if they're done well (I'm thinking largely of editing costs). The trouble is, first-time authors don't understand that. If you haven't gone through the process, you don't know what goes into it. Neil Gaiman, etc. (previously published authors) understand the process. Authors like Neil (well-known authors) are lucky because they've already received enough in royalties that they can fund their next work themselves if they need to, and readers buy their books for their name more than the content, so their books will sell.
I can understand why the DOJ made the conclusion they did in the price fixing case (although I still maintain that .mobi and .epub files are created using different processes and are more like soft cover and hard cover versions of text rather than identical "ebooks"), I just can't understand why Amazon's name was mentioned in the DOJ complaint 88 times. If it was a civil suit (Amazon suing Apple, etc.) that's one thing, but this was brought about by the United States of America on behalf of Americans. Americans who support Amazon because it's cheap. Because they can't afford/don't want to pay more for things. Because companies like Amazon are reducing the number of people that need to be employed/paying people less to do the same amount of work. If the DOJ had issues with the way Apple and the accused publishers tried to do business (and it seemed like the main target was Apple), I find it spectacular that they haven't found charges to bring against Amazon for some of their practices. Amazon uses different tactics, but they are equally as detrimental to the American people (and I would argue more so).
Amazon sells cheap stuff, and where books are concerned lack of investment leads to a crappy product. Amazon's okay with that, but readers shouldn't be. Publishers aren't happy about crappy products (even if they produce them sometimes), but authors are livid. It's their name that goes on the cover. It's their name the reader associates with the book. Readers know authors, not publishers. By being the invisible hand publishers have inadvertently done themselves in. Very few people realize the value of publishers, but they will notice when they're gone. Authors are just trying to raise the alarm (I really love Stephen Colbert at the moment), and they're REALLY pissed that Amazon is interfering with their revenue stream. Which is completely understandable. Especially in America.
[–]elbitjusticieroEl viejo y el mar 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 16 時間 前
That's all it is but people are making it out to be something else for some reason.
Maybe because of the artificial delay for delivery (2 to 6 weeks, I believe) that Amazon put in place to screw the publisher, but is a royal PITA for customers more than anything.
[–]siecle 79 ポイント80 ポイント81 ポイント 19 時間 前
Amazon wants to sell e-books for $10, publishers want $15. Before, all big publishers had made a backroom deal that none of them would agree to sell e-books for less than $15. The US Department of Justice takes a dim view of that kind of collusion (when several big companies collude so that collectively they have monopoly power, it's called a "trust"), and told all the publishers to renegotiate their contracts.
Hachette's turn to renegotiate was first. They couldn't reach an agreement so Amazon's attitude was basically, "we're not required to sell your books, we'll tell our customers to buy them somewhere else." Hachette is mad, Hachette's authors are mad, people who hate Amazon are mad, people who are worried about the decline of the publishing industry are mad.
[–]Deltethnia 37 ポイント38 ポイント39 ポイント 18 時間 前
They're still selling the books, it's just that they're not taking preorders on the books that have not yet been released. Those are the books they're telling people to buy elsewhere. In turn I don't doubt that Hachette has been bottlenecking their delivery schedules to Amazon's warehouses creating delays in stock replenishment for existing titles. But this also reflects bad on Amazon because they can't get those orders out in a timely manner, causing delivery delays to the consumer. Amazon knows they can't fill those orders as they would like and again has told people to buy the Hachette books elsewhere. Sounds more to me like Amazon is on our side. Hell they may even be holding out for a bigger percentage to go to the authors, but we don't know, because both sides are in nondisclosure. Edit: spelling
[–]hamlet9000 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 10 時間 前
Most of the people taking Hachette's side in this argument like to wring their hands about Amazon potentially gaining a monopoly in the future and what Amazon could then potentially do with that monopoly if that ever happens...
... while conveniently forgetting that Hachette literally just got convicted for monopoly collusion.
In the battle between the guy who could theoretically buy a gun some day and then use that gun for bad things and the guy who literally just got done shooting at me it really shouldn't be that confusing which guy you should be more worried about.
[–]TheSingleLocus 61 ポイント62 ポイント63 ポイント 19 時間 前
AIUI...Amazon sell books very cheaply. Because people like to buy things at the cheapest possible price, this gives Amazon a huge market share in the book market. This in turn gives them a great deal of power to negotiate the wholesale price at which they buy the books from the publishers.
This kind of thing has always happened with other commodities. Supermarket chains use the same techniques to pressure wholesalers into selling basic items such as bread, milk, etc. to them at very low cost.
Book publishers (and their supporters) seem to be arguing that books are a special case, and shouldn't be treated in the same way. However there's a feeling amongst some people that this is just more of the sense of entitlement that media industries often seem to exhibit. The sense that because they have always been able to make large profits from the their products in the past, that they are entitled to go on doing so forever more. (The movie and music industries have always been the main culprits of this until now.)
[–]Fuqwon 37 ポイント38 ポイント39 ポイント 18 時間 前
Amazon wants to sell books as cheap as possible. They're thinking long term and want as much market share as possible.
Hachette wants to sell their books for more.
So they're fighting.
Most consumers are happy to pay less for stuff, so Hachette/writers are trying to turn it into intellectual/moral argument when it's just about money.
[–]FACT_CHECKING_ALIEN 17 ポイント18 ポイント19 ポイント 19 時間 前
I, too, can't seem to penetrate the fog of controversy to actually piece together a straight answer.
I have no idea. Somebody help us.
[–]DrStalker 34 ポイント35 ポイント36 ポイント 19 時間 前
Everyone just grab a pitchfork and we'll split up, half of us go to Neil's house to protest and the other half go to Amazon HQ. Call the other group of you figure out what's actually going on.
[–]FACT_CHECKING_ALIEN 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 19 時間 前
Unfortunately after reading American Gods I am incredibly impressed by Neil Gaiman's writing style. So. I guess that makes me the Amazon HQ protester?
...But I actually order shit from Amazon...
God damn it.
[–]SirLeepsALot 20 ポイント21 ポイント22 ポイント 19 時間 前
Maybe you can just pick up your packages while you're there protesting, so as not to inconvenience them.
[–]FACT_CHECKING_ALIEN 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 19 時間 前
Would I apologize too? I have no idea what I am supposed to be doing anymore!
[–]Vade_Retro_Satana 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 19 時間 前
Be sure to get your stuff from them first, very politely, and then yell at the top of your lungs, while macing them "BOOK BURNING SCUM! Neil Gaiman is GOD! BOOKS ARE FUTURE!" and then leave with a cackle, jumping into the air and clicking your heels together.
[–]misogichan 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 12 時間 前*
"And tune in at 6:00 to learn how amazon is waging a war against books. Fortunately one man, who some are calling a modern day prophet, is leading the charge to save our books and our future."
[–]StormflyFantasy 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 19 時間 前
"DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF- Oh! Actually do you mind if I take that now? You see I really don't want to have to wait 3 to 5 working days fo-
Really? Thanks!
You guys are great. As soon as I finish reading I'm going to rate you guys 5 stars. Sorry about the whole pitchforks thing. Wasn't really my idea in the first place actually. No hard feelings."
[–]It_Takes_A_Pillage 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 18 時間 前
Don't worry about it bro! Was Geronimo a hypocrite because he used Winchesters?
[–]Cultjam 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 19 時間 前
Gaiman isn't solidly on either side.
[–]IamBenAffleck 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 18 時間 前
I don't own a pitchfork, do you think I can order one from Amazon?
[–]insane_contin 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 18 時間 前
Here's a few options for you
[–]ReadNoEvilTypeNoEvil 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 15 時間 前
lol I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it any more.
What are you rebelling against? Well...What do you got?
[–]Chimaeran 59 ポイント60 ポイント61 ポイント 18 時間 前
Amazon wants to cut the publishers out from ebook sales, because they're no longer necessary and take a large part of the profit for no discernible reason. The publishers manage this because they've got authors locked in - If you want to sell physical copies of your book via them, you have to grant them the digital rights as well.
The publishers are fighting tooth and nail to stop Amazon squeezing them out because ebooks are really profitable.
That's what this boils down to. The latest Hatchette vs Amazon dispute is about how the profit from ebooks is split. Amazon pays authors up to 70% of the price of the book. Hatchette? They pay the author up to 25%.
The things publishers traditionally bring to the table - physical distribution, advertising and covering the costs of publishing and shouldering the risk - Are no longer necessary with ebooks. Advertising in particular has been defanged by Amazon because they offer samples of books and recommend similar books to those you've already bought via them.
This dispute has arisen several times since ebooks really took off. Amazon's response to publishers refusing to capitulate is to cease offering their books for preorder or discounting them on Amazon.com. The publishers are upset about this. They've lost control of a market they once dominated due to a shift in format that sidesteps the gateways they'd set up to keep that control.
There have been a few notable incidents in this ongoing struggle - Notably, Amazon removed the catalogue of the publisher Macmillan when Macmillan tried to force them to increase ebooks prices to physical books. The publishers argued that Amazon charging less for ebooks 'devalued' books somehow.
In short? Publishers want to force Amazon to artificially inflate ebook prices and want to continue receiving a large cut of the profit. Amazon is refusing and when contracts end, they're using their position of dominance to stop publishers from doing this. Publishers in the US have tried to collude with one another to fight Amazon on this, but it resulted in them(And Apple) being fined by regulators for price fixing.
Amazon is encouraging authors to ditch publishers entirely and go via Amazon's own imprint, which results in books costing less for us and a larger portion of the money going to the author. For consumers and authors, this is great! For the middle men, not so much.
TL;DR: Publishers are to ebooks what dealerships are to cars and what cable companies are to the Netflix. They're middle men used to a large cut of the profits but the ways they retain control over their respective industries are being eroded.
[–]one_comment_only 11 ポイント12 ポイント13 ポイント 17 時間 前
There are several issues at work here. First and foremost is that book publishers have a pretty nice gig and make good money selling other people's work and paying them a pittance in royalties( 6% to 10% typically). Amazon is challenging their profit margins by selling the books at less than suggested retail. So a few years ago they colluded to all force Amazon to agree to sell books at a certain price. This triggered a federal lawsuit and a crappy settlement. Now the contracts are being negotiated and the publishers are trying to get the same damn deal so they can keep making cash on the backs of authors.
Amazon's royalties are much more generous but the author needs to do everything the publishing company would typically do (edit, market, create book cover, and so on). Amazon has a company called CreateSpace which will do this for a set fee ($1000 ish). So Amazon is threatening their profit margins by making new and established authors look and say "Why can't you do this for me".
So long story short Amazon is fucking them on both ends and they don't like it because they used to fuck the authors in every hole.
[–]SickSalamander 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 19 時間 前
Yes but they are under non disclosure agreements.
[–]philiplurkin 102 ポイント103 ポイント104 ポイント 19 時間 前
Interesting to hear Gaiman talk about how he thinks books are special -- I'm a big collector and a moderately big Gaiman fan and agree with many of his points, but I can't think of a living author who churns out more "special" editions than he does. Absolute Sandman, Sandman Omnibus, Annotated Sandman, the plethora of pseudo-limited editions of The Ocean at the End of the Lane that came out last year... what about the new slipcased signed edition of Coraline that came out recently in the UK? How's that Subterranean Press edition looking now? And Stardust? The Charles Vess versions have had multiple "limited" iterations as well as the "novel" version "for adults". I understand much of this must come from distribution regions and is dictated by his publishers, but he's still signing thousands of books a year for these "limited" runs that seem to be trumped by a better looking, better made version later on, most of which get primarily sold on these online markets. Very curious.
Here's a signed Coraline if anyone's interested.
[–]daboose 69 ポイント70 ポイント71 ポイント 17 時間 前
I enjoy some of Gaiman's work, but there isn't an author alive with a bigger primadonna complex. He's a pretentious prick, and his "wife" is worse.
Books are sacred my ass. Books are entertainment and/or a means of conveying ideas. Nothing more, nothing less.
For every book like "The Road", there are two dozen "John Dies At The End"s
Gaiman needs to get over himself.
[–]LovtelUrban Fantasy 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 17 時間 前
Heyyy! What's wrong with JDatE?
[–]daboose 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 16 時間 前
Nothing, it's an awesome book. I vastly prefer it to The Road.
That being said, most folks would argue it's pulpy lowbrow humor, not "arty farty" BS
[–]bloodspot88 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 10 時間 前
Come on, just take a walk with two people. Maybe wear out your shoes, put on some plastic, deal with starvation and constant paranoia, find evidence that someone is following your trail and probably wants to rape and consume you.
Get a woman pregnant, eat the newborn because its the only food you've found for days, pick some hay for hayseeds, and then see the world's oceans with never-ending deposits of black fuzz in them.
And die. Because that's all life can promise, is finality.
[–]glass_hedgehog 34 ポイント35 ポイント36 ポイント 17 時間 前
I love Amanda Palmer, but you're right about her being a primadonna. I wonder, though, why you put wife in quotation marks. I'm pretty sure they are legally married.
[–]AmaelaminaFantasy: The Blade Itself 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 17 時間 前
I think he was referring to them being in an open marriage.
[–]glass_hedgehog 60 ポイント61 ポイント62 ポイント 17 時間 前
An open marriage is still a marriage though? They are legally married. That makes her his wife. What boundaries they choose to set for themselves is no one else's business.
[–]meeyow 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 15 時間 前
Upvote for you sir. I appreciate his literature, but as a person himself, I wouldn't mind giving him a good backhand. I don't think he should be a good source for opinion on this whole debacle.
[–]NoYoureTheThrowaway 13 ポイント14 ポイント15 ポイント 17 時間 前
I'd like to point out that he has no control over Sandman. DC is notorious for kind of doing what they want with your content after you write it for them. Just ask Alan Moore.
(Otherwise, DC kicks ass.)
[–]Ouaouaron 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 16 時間 前
Isn't Gaiman okay with book piracy? It seems odd to like book piracy because it leads to more sales, but not be okay with simply selling books at much cheaper prices (which probably increases sales even more, because getting a book officially is almost always a more pleasant experience than pirating).
[–]Arms_Akimbo 423 ポイント424 ポイント425 ポイント 19 時間 前
Sorry, but reading about someone with an estimated net worth of $18 million dollars lecture about how books are sacred and profits shouldn't matter leaves me feeling a bit underwhelmed.
[–]Chronic_Apathy1 150 ポイント151 ポイント152 ポイント 18 時間 前
And you'll note that the only authors decrying Amazon are the ones who have made millions through the current system. Nobody else is really standing up to defend the book publishers, because everyone who doesn't have some thing to gain from the current system recognizes that the system sucks. There's a lot of concern of what might happen when Amazon has complete control, but it can't be worse than what we had two years ago.
[–]socialisthippie 34 ポイント35 ポイント36 ポイント 16 時間 前
I agree with your sentiment but, honestly, do you really expect Joe McSellsAhundredCopiesAyear to get any media attention for saying the same thing. The only reason we're hearing about Gaiman and Colbert saying this stuff is because they are big names and people will click stuff with their names in it.
[–]ScatteredMuse 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 16 時間 前
Exactly. A few authors I've seen on tumblr have written about this - some of their names are probably recognizable in their genre but they are far, far from "millionaires". One only recently made the jump to quit her full-time job and is definitely not rich.
[–]AssMcButts 62 ポイント63 ポイント64 ポイント 17 時間 前
The model is moving away from millionaires and they don't like it. The internet is shifting art back into the realm of craftsmen. Lots of people will make modest livings instead of a few hugely successful taking everything.
[–]RecallRethuglicans 33 ポイント34 ポイント35 ポイント 16 時間 前
It's called the long tail. Same as music and television , the most popular stuff doesn't have the same numbers but the obscure stuff now has a market.
[–]turgid_wang 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 16 時間 前
I agree but think about how pissed you'd be if you made 20 million selling on Amazon then realized like 10 years later you could have made 22 million if they'd paid you more. You'd think the whole world responsible and that life owes you a couple mil and then you'd reach out to all your fans and pull all your strings and.. you'd be a douchebag.
[–]Buffalo__Buffalo 55 ポイント56 ポイント57 ポイント 18 時間 前
Also this is capitalism. Since when is anything sacred in capitalism?
[–]mareenah 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 15 時間 前
Wasn't he the one who released a book for free in Russia or was that someone else?
[–]caessa 602 ポイント603 ポイント604 ポイント 20 時間 前
I like books. I like cheap items. Long live Amazon.
[–]WeeMiniMooseClassics 243 ポイント244 ポイント245 ポイント 19 時間 前
Seriously. I get to read MORE books because Amazon sells them so cheap.
[–]wildcard1992 67 ポイント68 ポイント69 ポイント 19 時間 前
Yeah. I rarely pirate books because I honestly want to support authors and Amazon allows me to do that. The only books I have pirated are those that I couldn't get them where I live, and Amazon doesn't sell them in my country.
[–]Thaumas 16 ポイント17 ポイント18 ポイント 12 時間 前
I never pirate books because I can't stand reading them on some fancy contraption. LONG LIVE PAPER!
[–]pinumbernumber 17 ポイント18 ポイント19 ポイント 11 時間 前
Have you tried (paid) eBooks an an actual Kindle or other e-ink reader, not the Kindle Fire or other tablets? It looks and acts like paper (non-backlit screen with static content until you turn the page).
[–]WeWantBootsy 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 10 時間 前
I've tried and tried to love my Kindle with e-ink. I have nerve damage in my left hand making it hard for me to hold books and the Kindle is much easier for me to hold. But paper books are just so much more gratifying. I can't explain it, I just like paper books a lot more.
[–]ApolloTheDog 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 9 時間 前
I used to think I'd never stray away from paper. The smell, the feel - I'm a bender... I didn't know why you'd want something else. But then I got a kindle as a gift, and it really is pretty slick.
[–]caessa 23 ポイント24 ポイント25 ポイント 19 時間 前
Like... pay $25 for one book or pay $0.01 per book not counting s&h ($3)... Hmm... 1 book or 8+...
[–]apple_kicks 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 18 時間 前*
pretty sure Neil Gaiman said the same thing in a video advertising the Amazon Kindle
[–]segundos 17 ポイント18 ポイント19 ポイント 17 時間 前*
Used to work at a B&N. I always thought Amazon should just replace us. Or B&N should start investing in 3D Printers. Because housing thousands of books when people will treat us like a library AND trying to make a sales goal with either a membership that requires 250 in purchases to break even OR merchandise that'll often get shunned because it's cheaper on Amazon is not the way to go. At least B&N tries to innovate with their ereaders but they're too fucking cheap to put even a camera on it to gartner consumer attraction. /rant
[–]magmabrew 8 ポイント9 ポイント10 ポイント 16 時間 前
Why would you need a camera on a e-reader? B&Ns tablets are e-readers, not full blown android/iOS pocket computers.
[–]segundos 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 16 時間 前
Mainly because we marketed (I quit back in March) it as an affordable competitor to the iPad; the main difference being that there was no camera. In addition, since the NOOK HD and HD+ have complete Google Play functionality (besides those that require location services, but that can be bypassed with a Jellybean SD card), having a camera would be a great addition to the higher-end tablets that they offer. (note how Barnes calls then Tablets as opposed to just E-readers) For the older generations, a cheap 59 dollar SimpleTouch that only displays books is perfect for them. But I think in order to stay competitive Barnes needs to step it up.
[–]KudagFirefist 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 8 時間 前
More importantly, why would you need a 3D printer to print text to paper?
[–]AustNerevar 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 12 時間 前
Amazon can live long once they start giving free ebook copies of all the physical books I buy.
Seriously, I looked at a book the other day that was $10 for the kindle version, while the real book was $9. How does that make any sense?
When I buy a real book, I just end up pirating the ebook so I can read it when I'm away from the house (I'm anal about my books okay). It would be a lot easier to just get the free digital version from Amazon (just like I get MP3s from Amazon for my vinyl purchases) instead of having to scour tons of torrent sites to find that obscure book that no one has uploaded yet.
[–]GeekChess 69 ポイント70 ポイント71 ポイント 18 時間 前*
Amazon gives me a 70% royalty as opposed to a measly 15% at best from traditional publishers. So who's the one actually denigrating the sanctity of books?
[–]mendaciloquence 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 11 時間 前
Honest question: is the 70% royalty typical for most authors?
[–]vieque 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 8 時間 前
It's self-publishing. So everybody can get it, but it includes nothing (no editing or advertisement) that a publisher would normally provide. Thus it's not really a fair comparison.
[–]SharkBaitDLSThe Confusion 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 12 時間 前
Yeah, for authors trying to get noticed, it's way easier to get published with Amazon than trying to get some big-name publisher to pick you up. Like someone else in this thread said, it's making things better for the little guys but the big guys get upset because they don't have as much dominance as they used to.
[–]soapenhauer 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 8 時間 前
Publishers tend to give more like 25%-35% royalty rate on ebooks actually.
But a publisher also: provides cover art, edits the manuscript, proofs the manuscript, and lays it out... in addition to marketing and distributing.
That's not to say authors couldn't have a better deal, but it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
[–]Reineke 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 13 時間 前
Perhaps they specifically mean the sanctity of the books themselves rather than the authors who create them. :)
[–]analpenetra_oh_himom 1352 ポイント1353 ポイント1354 ポイント 20 時間 前
Guys.... time to break the impending circlejerk before it stats. NO books are NOT sacred ground. they are a product just like anything else. If you dislike amazons business practice go somewhere else. Yall are probably going to turn this into another reddit witch hunt, but last i checked they aren't torturing babies or burning Karl Marx's manifesto. so really let the free market decide what something is worth without throwing silly words like "Sacred Ground" around. dont like amazon? dont buy the shit they be selling!
[–]El_Bandito_Blanquito 50 ポイント51 ポイント52 ポイント 19 時間 前
So, you're saying '50 Shades of Grey' is not a holy text.
[–]somevelvetmorning 13 ポイント14 ポイント15 ポイント 18 時間 前
Well, he is named Christian Grey.
[–]TheOtherSon 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 17 時間 前
Don't forget the inner goddess!
[–]beta_pup 52 ポイント53 ポイント54 ポイント 17 時間 前
Seriously. I've been in publishing for over 20 years. You think the publishers treat these books as "sacred"? Nope! Books are products. I can't tell you how many books I've had to send to the printer that had errors because the fiscal year was ending and the books HAD to be in the warehouse. It's the same story at every publisher I've worked for.
The only people who treat books as "sacred" are the authors (and only their own books). The majority of them are great to work with but some of them are primadonnas. I wish I had a dime for every time an author threatened to get me fired. I've had authors so obnoxious that their coauthors refused to collaborate on other books ever again.
If books are so sacred then perhaps Mr. Gaiman should take a vow of poverty.
[–]earwickerFicciones 121 ポイント122 ポイント123 ポイント 19 時間 前*
If you dislike amazons business practice go somewhere else.
Well that's sort of the crux of the issue. If you are an author you certainly can choose not to do business with Amazon.. but that means losing the majority of potential exposure and sales. 20 years ago, choosing not to do business with one individual bookseller would not mean nearly as much of a loss, meaning that authors and publishers have less of a choice over whether to do business with Amazon or not.. because there are simply a decreasing number of other booksellers to do business with.
If B&N goes away (I doubt it will survive this decade) and independent bookstores continue to decline, would you still tell disgruntled authors to "go somewhere else" with their business? If so, where exactly would that "somewhere else" be?
Now, I don't think all of this is happening simply because Amazon is "evil", I think a lot of it happened in part because publishing houses are slow and grossly inefficient organizations who are still stuck on old models, and B&N has had a lot of serious internal issues during the time they've attempted to compete with the Kindle, resulting in nook being an inferior product and a number of other problems.
That said, the end result is that the ability to "not choose Amazon" is simply decreasingly a viable option for authors and publishers because there are fewer and fewer alternatives.
Yall are probably going to turn this into another reddit witch hunt
Why does everyone who makes an argument on this site have this bizarre need to pretend that the majority of redditors are on the opposite side of it? If you look at the last thread on this subject it seemed there was a lot more support for Amazon than vice versa. But the "circlejerk" is always supporting the opposite point of view from one's own.
[–]Chumbaniya 68 ポイント69 ポイント70 ポイント 18 時間 前
If you are an author you certainly can choose not to do business with Amazon.. but that means losing the majority of potential exposure and sales.
But if someone believe that books are sacred, and not a product, then why would that person care about losing sales? It would be grossly hypocritical to claim that books are some special medium which should not be subject to business decisions, and then to worry about the business implications of your own decisions regarding your books. You don't get to be preachy about integrity to others unless you hold yourself to exactly the same standard-
[–]vadergeek 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 18 時間 前
Not only does Gaiman presumably still want to make money, surely a large part of the reason to write a book is to get people to read it.
[–]earwickerFicciones 26 ポイント27 ポイント28 ポイント 18 時間 前*
But if someone believe that books are sacred, and not a product, then why would that person care about losing sales?
Probably because he still wants to be able to eat food and pay rent.
If I understand it correctly, the argument is that books, like other forms of art, contribute to our overall culture and education and as such, the authors of books should be able to make a living by writing them even if the free market does not always support this.
Of course, I suspect Gaiman makes rather more of a living than quite a lot of other authors and isn't exactly just scraping by. And I suppose you could always rebut with "well if books are so sacred, you shouldn't mind working a second or third job to support yourself while you write them". And I get where that mentality comes from, as I like many others have worked dayjobs in order to support my less than profitable artistic output (though I'm now thankfully on the other side of that). However, the artistic output certainly suffers as a result, and many people simply cannot afford money/time-wise to do this - especially if they have kids.
So, I do also sympathize to some extent with Gaiman's attitude if not the man himself, and I do think a problem arises where left to a purely free market there is the potential to simply favor books by those who can most afford the time to write them and money promote them: a rich author can hire editors and a professional cover artist, pay for ad campaigns and pr, and is more likely to know people who can get them interviews and reviews, putting them at a massive advantage over authors from less well off backgrounds. This problem already exists in the publishing world to some extend but advances and editorial discretion do some work to counter it. But that doesn't mean the old model isn't broken.
[–]Chumbaniya 27 ポイント28 ポイント29 ポイント 17 時間 前
Of course he wants a living, but in recognising that he should recognise that this is true of everyone in every business. He writes books and he wants to see a return on that, but with that should come a realisation that this in itself means that books aren't this "sacred" thing, as everyone who works for Amazon, for the printers, for the people who make the paper, and so and so on in the endless chain of people involved in some way in bringing his books to the market, also have this same need. He needs to make the money because he lives in the real world, but so does everyone else. If Amazon makes a business decision, what fundamentally separates them from Gaiman himself? Both are doing their jobs and expect a return on it. I don't mean to say all decisions are made equally responsibly, but the idea that Amazon should have to treat books as something other than a product they sell isn't consistent.
In an ideal world, of course, everyone who wants to write would have the time to do so and the resources to have it published, but we live in a world of limited resources. There are problems with a free market for many things, but when it comes to luxuries and entertainment (and setting aside claims that books occupy some special elevated position, in business terms novels are entertainment. They are non-essential goods bought almost exclusively for recreational use) I think it works extremely well. Not every book can be published and promoted, nor every song, nor every film, but if a book's success depends on how many people choose to buy it then those books which people are most interested in are the ones that will get published, barring misjudgements from those in charge of selecting for publication. Gaiman himself has the success he has not because he writes books which have some powerful intrinsic value independent of whether people like them, but because people want to buy his books.
If we lived in a perfect world with unlimited resources, and nobody needed to earn a living, I would say that yes, books and artistic expression in general would be able to occupy this special space, but that isn't the world we live in. I think that an author shouldn't feel that their work should be protected from the world of business unless they are prepared to forgo the positive side of that business (i.e. making a living out of it, and in Gaiman's case presumably a very good living).
[–]HatcherActual 14 ポイント15 ポイント16 ポイント 16 時間 前*
This is all true and I agree with you. I think the point that he was making, though (and the point I would argue regardless), is that Amazon is becoming a monopoly that can control who gets seen by the market and who gets left out to dry.
This column does a good job of explaining in detail.
From the article:
The Amazon view, reflecting the tech culture, is that digital revolution makes it possible to reduce the role of the middlemen and gatekeepers of the old economy — the publishers — whose pricing models and ways of doing business limited competition and extracted too much money for themselves while adding too little value.
While the second part I would agree with, saying that the publishers pricing model is too high, the first part about the publishers being some kind of middlemen is just wrong. They do offer authors a good amount of services so that their books can be seen and bought by a larger audience than if they were to just self-publish. If you self-publish, then you need to edit, market, and sell your story entirely on your own or with freelance editors and publicists. With traditional publishers, they do it for you. This brings us to the publishers' point:
If Amazon is allowed to squeeze publishers even further, the industry warns that publishers will be starved for the money they use to support mid-list writers and new authors, reducing the book business to mass-appeal best-sellers and an endless supply of uncurated self-published dreck.
While if the publishers are done away with we'll still have Amazon and self-publishing, readers and authors alike will be totally dependent on mass-appeal and what is currently a best seller on Amazon, which isn't always good books, but just whatever erotic/romantic novel people happen to be buying most. Really good writers with classics in the making might suffer tremendously under this model in which marketing and editing is totally dependent on their pocket change and spare time. Which is exactly what will happen if Amazon continues to lower e-book prices past the point that is feasible for publishing companies to both hire editors and publicists, and also pay authors enough that they can make some sort of profit to continue supporting a lifestyle in which to write in.
At the same time though, publishers need to stop siphoning people's money just to make as large of a profit margin as possible. According to the graphs on this link provided by the original article author, it's actually more profitable for publishers to sell e-books at $15 each than it is to continue selling hardcovers at around $30 a book.
All in all, what is being said here is that publishers need to get with the times and adapt to the new digital book market, while Amazon has to stop trying to sell e-books for less than $10 and take a bigger cut of the profit if they want to continue having decent books to actually sell, that is unless they want to provide authors with editors and market the books themselves much the way publishers do now.
[–]cranktheguy 21 ポイント22 ポイント23 ポイント 19 時間 前
If B&N goes away (I doubt it will survive this decade) and independent bookstores continue to decline, would you still tell disgruntled authors to "go somewhere else" with their business?
Google's Play Books? Apple's Store?
[–]LostArtofConfusion 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 18 時間 前
And those are for e-books. Where are you going to go for the paper books? Keep in mind that the world is large, and bookstores are few and far between.
[–]solar_realms_elite 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 17 時間 前
You have given words to the thought I've been trying to articulate for years. Thank you!
It's, like, the topmost comment of every thread is someone going "Hey you reddit hivemind sheeple circlejerking karmawhores: I'm different, I'm not part of the herd! Look at my opinion which (I claim, counter to facts) is unpopular!
The pseudo-intellectual need to be different has eaten itself and now people on this site almost can't admit to having an opinion about anything without pretending its unpopular (whether on reddit itself, or elsewhere).
[–]IrNinjaBob 44 ポイント45 ポイント46 ポイント 17 時間 前*
It confuses me when I see things like this. Don't you realize public discourse like this is part of the free market trends you are talking about? This is how the free market works. A company will act in a certain way. People, especially people who are at the center of the subject, will actively speak out about it so the market is knowledgable in the first place, and then the market can react.
You are insulting people and stating they should allow the free market to decide, all because they are taking part in the exact thing that makes those free market determinations in the first place.
I get you are taking umbrage with his use of the term 'sacred ground', and I am not sure if you read the article or just the headline but his use of that term isn't really all that concerning when taken into context.
Two of the first three paragraphs should make that a little more clear:
Neil Gaiman, an unofficial spokesperson of sorts for authors, doesn’t know exactly where he falls on the Amazon divide. On the subject of the ongoing dispute between Amazon and Hachette — the publisher of his wife, musician Amanda Palmer — Gaiman is undecided. “I’m a weird mixture right now,” he said, noting the murky information available: “Every time I try to actually read enough stuff to figure out what’s going on here, what I run into is lots of ‘We can’t say anything, but he says,’ and ‘We can’t say anything, but she says.’”
Neil Gaiman, an unofficial spokesperson of sorts for authors, doesn’t know exactly where he falls on the Amazon divide.
On the subject of the ongoing dispute between Amazon and Hachette — the publisher of his wife, musician Amanda Palmer — Gaiman is undecided. “I’m a weird mixture right now,” he said, noting the murky information available: “Every time I try to actually read enough stuff to figure out what’s going on here, what I run into is lots of ‘We can’t say anything, but he says,’ and ‘We can’t say anything, but she says.’”
This isn't simply Gaiman coming out against Big Bad Amazon and blasting them because "books are sacred". He gave his opinion on the subject of literature and what it means to the cultures of the world.
Edit: Also, I want to point out how sensationalized the title is. Here are the actual excerpts that are included in the title:
I’m a weird mixture right now, because on the one hand, I’m obviously pissed at Amazon. I’m a Hachette author in the U.K., my wife is a Hachette author now, and I’m very aware that Hachette is the first of these publishers that negotiations are going to happen with, and that HarperCollins [Gaiman's U.S. publisher] will be coming up in six months’ time or whatever. On the other hand, I’m just as aware that what you’re seeing right now, is huge, giant-level dealings between huge corporations both under non-disclosure, and every time I try to actually read enough stuff to figure out what’s going on here, what I run into is lots of “We can’t say anything, but he says,” and “We can’t say anything, but she says.”
and
But I would point out that books are special, books are the way we talk to generations that have not turned up yet. The fact that we can actually, essentially communicate with the people in ancient Egypt, people in Rome and Greece, people in ancient Britain, people in New York in the 1920s who can communicate to us and change the way we think, and change the things that we believe. I think that books are special. Books are sacred. And I think that when you are selling books, you have to remember that in all the profits and loss, in all of that, you are treading on sacred ground. Again, it’s complicated by the fact you’re dealing with giant multibillion-dollar book corporations.
But I would point out that books are special, books are the way we talk to generations that have not turned up yet. The fact that we can actually, essentially communicate with the people in ancient Egypt, people in Rome and Greece, people in ancient Britain, people in New York in the 1920s who can communicate to us and change the way we think, and change the things that we believe.
I think that books are special. Books are sacred. And I think that when you are selling books, you have to remember that in all the profits and loss, in all of that, you are treading on sacred ground. Again, it’s complicated by the fact you’re dealing with giant multibillion-dollar book corporations.
I mean, when you are cutting up sentences from completely different parts of the interview and putting it together to make it look like he was saying something else, does that not ruin all credibility in the first place? He was saying books are sacred in the sense that they are one of the few ways we have glimpses into the cultures of the past, and in that sense he is right. He also frames these statements repeatedly with the fact that he understands this is also dealings between two large corporations and everything isn't necessarily exactly as it may seem to the public.
TL;DR: "Guys I hate to break up the circlejerk..." and then you go and "circlejerk" over information that was presented in a misleading fashion and should be more clear if the interview was actually read before voicing opinions on said statements.
[–]jinsu94 295 ポイント296 ポイント297 ポイント 19 時間 前*
Honestly what a tool. Who are you to tell Amazon how to sell their PRODUCTS because you have some BS emotional attachment to your favourite media platform? If people don't want to buy books they won't buy books its not some philosophical debate over the holiness of paper.
*disclaimer: I did not read the article before making my comment. After reading the article it sounds like if book stores can't afford to stay open that's because there isn't a damn demand for book stores.
[–]PavementBluesAmerican Literature 244 ポイント245 ポイント246 ポイント 16 時間 前*
Did you read the article? The title of this is incredibly misleading, as it stitches together two disparate quotes from completely different parts of the article. As soon as Gaiman says that he is obviously pissed at Amazon, he points out that he still doesn't know enough about the situation to really make a solid judgement. He repeats that multiple times.
I suppose you don't generate traffic by naming an article, "Neil Gaiman: 'I don't know. We have no idea.'"
Edit: wording
[–]LostArtofConfusion 45 ポイント46 ポイント47 ポイント 18 時間 前
Which is not what the argument is at all.
[–]Homozygote 20 ポイント21 ポイント22 ポイント 17 時間 前
I don't know why you need to prefix your statement with a personal attack. It's not about ego.
[–]Twilight_Scko 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 18 時間 前
What is the context for this? What did Amazon do?
[–]LolFishFail 11 ポイント12 ポイント13 ポイント 14 時間 前
How dare you! Amazon offers the widest selection, finding in the shortest amount of time and selling for the cheapest price! Some of us WANT to go on massive pilgrimages around shops to find an individual book. Particularly when we're living in the middle of nowhere, I absolutely hate it when Amazon delivers to my door within a couple of days of placing my order!
- Said Nobody.
[–]NotAGenious 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 15 時間 前
You realize that the circlejerk is actually for the side of the argument you're making, and you ushered it in? You didn't stop a circlejerk, you created one. Congratulations, completely regular, like-minded Redditor.
The only thing that surprised me about your post is why anyone would think Redditors would disagree with the technological, pro-consumer argument.
[–]shaim2 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 14 時間 前
The sad capitalism (Murican?) way of thinking: culture = product.
[–]onomojo 7 ポイント8 ポイント9 ポイント 14 時間 前
This is the same tired old media fight that we've seen over and over again as old media corporations lose out to companies who innovate. We saw it with napster and the music industry. They kicked and whined the whole way "The poor musicians!" Then we saw it repeated with movies with the movie industry fighting against digital media every step of the way but now we have Netflix and everyone's life is much better as a result. It took a while but now we have digital media again disrupting publishing companies' status quo and author's whining and complaining "The poor authors!" but in the end they'll lose. Companies refuse to accept change and innovate to keep up and instead try to fight it. They end up evolving or dying.
[–]YourOlFriendDarkness 63 ポイント64 ポイント65 ポイント 19 時間 前
Since not many commenting here seem to be reading the article, here is the most relevant section:
I’m a weird mixture right now, because on the one hand, I’m obviously pissed at Amazon. I’m a Hachette author in the U.K., my wife is a Hachette author now, and I’m very aware that Hachette is the first of these publishers that negotiations are going to happen with, and that HarperCollins [Gaiman's U.S. publisher] will be coming up in six months’ time or whatever. On the other hand, I’m just as aware that what you’re seeing right now, is huge, giant-level dealings between huge corporations both under non-disclosure, and every time I try to actually read enough stuff to figure out what’s going on here, what I run into is lots of “We can’t say anything, but he says,” and “We can’t say anything, but she says.” What is obviously problematic is that Amazon has, whatever it is, 30 to 40 percent of the book market. Which is not a good thing. The point, I think, where I would go incandescent is if Amazon ever repeats the number it pulled, I think a few years ago, with the Macmillan books — which is basically saying, we are not selling you this book. At that point, they’re doing the equivalent of what Barnes and Noble did a couple years ago to me, when they were arguing that they were having one of these, again, corporation-to-corporation arguments with DC Comics, and they said, “Well, the Sandman books aren’t for sale, you can no longer buy them at Barnes and Noble.” And I was fuming.
What is obviously problematic is that Amazon has, whatever it is, 30 to 40 percent of the book market. Which is not a good thing. The point, I think, where I would go incandescent is if Amazon ever repeats the number it pulled, I think a few years ago, with the Macmillan books — which is basically saying, we are not selling you this book. At that point, they’re doing the equivalent of what Barnes and Noble did a couple years ago to me, when they were arguing that they were having one of these, again, corporation-to-corporation arguments with DC Comics, and they said, “Well, the Sandman books aren’t for sale, you can no longer buy them at Barnes and Noble.” And I was fuming.
I do not understand all the hate Neil is getting for offering his solicited opinion. He admits early in the article that he has a bias, he is aware of it, and he understands that he does not understand all the nuances of what is going on in these negotiations.
[–]mfukarThe Handmaid's Tale, p.87 19 ポイント20 ポイント21 ポイント 18 時間 前
I think people are just pointing out that his opinion is worth nothing - which he admits. This is just the cheapest form of propaganda.
PS. I wouldn't be surprised if Hatchette is forcing both him and Colbert to make these absurd statements.
[–]thewaitaround 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 11 時間 前
I think Hatchette is only "forcing" Gaiman and Colbert to make these statements insofar as their vested interest in Hatchette's wellbeing goes. Also, I wouldn't necessarily call what he said "absurd".
[–]J37hr0 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 17 時間 前
Thanks for reading the article. I was thinking the same. We shouldn't link to articles, just post inflammatory titles and reap the sweet, sweet karma.
[–]DavidJerk 38 ポイント39 ポイント40 ポイント 18 時間 前
If it's such sacred ground, please start selling your books for a dollar so more of us can experience them.
[–]cougmerrik 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 18 時間 前
If they are upset about amazons book monopoly, the publishers should create a competing service or back a different one. Otherwise shut up and take your 10 bucks a book.
Book sales are as high as they've ever been and cost to distribute has vanished.
[–]willshetterly 12 ポイント13 ポイント14 ポイント 19 時間 前
Regarding the fight between Hachette and Amazon: The butcher and the meat market are fighting, and they both say they're doing it for the cows.
[–]dablya 27 ポイント28 ポイント29 ポイント 19 時間 前
While Gaiman said everything quoted in the title, it's way the fuck out of context. Very misleading.
Honestly, this type of quoting makes me feel even more sympathetic towards amazon.
[–]Cultjam 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 18 時間 前
What?? You expect us to RTFA???
I did and you're right.
[–]dablya 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 15 時間 前
Neil Gaiman: "I’m obviously pissed at...Hachette"
[–]DannySpud2General Fiction 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 19 時間 前
Books are books, and I wouldn't be able to read half as many as I'd like to if they weren't as cheap as they are on Amazon.
[–]redguppie 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 16 時間 前
Knowledge is sacred, books are just a convenient way to carry it.
[–]Ph4ndaal 12 ポイント13 ポイント14 ポイント 18 時間 前
Amazon are providing an avenue for thousands of authors to get their art into people's hands. Authors who would otherwise be considered too niche for large publishing houses to bother with. Publishing houses like the ones currently sueing Amazon.
Neil Gaiman and other elite authors who are lining up to sing Hachette's praises can fuck right off. They got their (deserved) breaks, and now apparently everyone else can go fuck themselves?
There are thousands of new titles every month now, the books are affordable and the authors are getting compensated. What exactly is the problem here? Oh that's right, Hachette's bloated markups are being exposed to competition they can't sustain and it's hurting their executive salary packages.
Boo fucking hoo.
[–]rikaateabug 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 19 時間 前
I know that one company owning most of an industry will eventually lead to screwing customers.. But at the same time, it's fantastic that someone can self publish so easily on Amazon without having to send their work to 30 different publishers, only to receive 30 rejection letters 6 months later.
Also, as a college student Amazon has saved me soooo much money buying textbooks there! My first semester my books were $600 at the sodomizing college bookstore, went through amazon next semester and it wasn't even $200.
How dare Amazon offer lower prices, provide new ways for people to share their writing, give poor college kids a break, and take money and control away from the big publishers! Evil bastards.
[–]Juancu 15 ポイント16 ポイント17 ポイント 19 時間 前
Title is insanely biased. You cut "because on the one hand," just before your quote, then skipped Gaiman's source of conflict, stringing at the end a quote from a whole different question that could be applied to either party!
[–]UrNameIsToby 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 7 時間 前
Says the man who's latest ~150 pg paperback costs 15 dollars at the brick and mortar book store.
[–]pharmaceus 45 ポイント46 ポイント47 ポイント 19 時間 前
Is Neil Gaiman the Metallica of books?
[–]Meta_Digital 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 18 時間 前
If books are sacred, then why are they being bought and sold? Is that was sacred means? Marketable? Is that what sacred ground is? The marketplace?
The language and hyperbole of this article only continues to obfuscate the issue and complicate the discussion.
Oh, wait, it's a Salon article.
[–]flippant 10 ポイント11 ポイント12 ポイント 19 時間 前
I disagree with Gaiman on this. It pains me to say that because I have mad respect for him as an author and for a lot of the work that he has done supporting causes, but the pedestal I've put him on doesn't mean I never disagree with him. I can understand that he has the luxury of having an emotional attachment to books, but many of us have a business to run and can't afford that. I don't take any traditionally-published A-list author's opinion in this issue too seriously. They are either detached from reality because of their financial success, or their opinion is based on their vested interest. Either way, they're supporting their dog in the fight. There are a lot of mid-list authors who are getting screwed by this fight but also get screwed day in and day out by their traditional publishing contracts, and I'd be more interested in hearing from them or from the hybrid authors who might be more objective.
Of course, I'm biased too: I have no use for traditional publishers and have a business based primarily on Amazon sales. The way I see it, there really isn't a right and wrong here. One side is trying to manipulate the system to preserve what I think is a dying business model. The other is trying to manipulate the system to maximize what I think is a growing business model. They're both trying to maximize their profit and market share, and some authors are caught in the crossfire. They'll work it out, that's what markets do, and authors will adapt to the new marketplace.
[–]righttoremain 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 18 時間 前
The whole article better explains his position. The two quotes are from separate questions in the interview. His belief that books are sacred comes from a totally different question; when asked about his feelings toward Amazon in light of recent events, his complete statement was:
"I’m a weird mixture right now, because on the one hand, I’m obviously pissed at Amazon. I’m a Hachette author in the U.K., my wife is a Hachette author now, and I’m very aware that Hachette is the first of these publishers that negotiations are going to happen with, and that HarperCollins [Gaiman's U.S. publisher] will be coming up in six months’ time or whatever. On the other hand, I’m just as aware that what you’re seeing right now, is huge, giant-level dealings between huge corporations both under non-disclosure, and every time I try to actually read enough stuff to figure out what’s going on here, what I run into is lots of “We can’t say anything, but he says,” and “We can’t say anything, but she says.” There was a thing I read yesterday where somebody, apparently from Amazon, speaking off the record, was saying why this whole three-to-five week delivery [delay] thing was happening with Hachette Books was that Hachette was playing hardball and they weren’t delivering the books to Amazon. Was that true? I don’t know. I have no idea. What is obviously problematic is that Amazon has, whatever it is, 30 to 40 percent of the book market. Which is not a good thing. The point, I think, where I would go incandescent is if Amazon ever repeats the number it pulled, I think a few years ago, with the Macmillan books — which is basically saying, we are not selling you this book. At that point, they’re doing the equivalent of what Barnes and Noble did a couple years ago to me, when they were arguing that they were having one of these, again, corporation-to-corporation arguments with DC Comics, and they said, “Well, the Sandman books aren’t for sale, you can no longer buy them at Barnes and Noble.” And I was fuming."
[–]DuckPhlox 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 18 時間 前
Publishers have complete discretion over what they produce, why shouldn't book sellers have complete discretion over what they sell?
[–]MasterFubar 20 ポイント21 ポイント22 ポイント 20 時間 前
OTOH, there are books I've read that I wouldn't have the chance to get without Amazon.
No book is too obscure, if it exists you can find it at Amazon.
[–]RecallRethuglicans 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 16 時間 前
Aka the long tail
[–]m63646 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 19 時間 前
A statement so meaningless that not even the guy who said it could possibly mean it.
[–]magicdragonfly 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 19 時間 前
I think Gaiman's thoughts are good, but he doesn't know much about Jeff Bezos. When he talked about how Amazon started, I don't think Gaiman knows how it started. Bezos didn't stumble onto selling books by chance, or a life-long love affair with bookstores, or any of that. It was a calculated decision, nothing more, made by an investment banker.
Bezos made his money long before he cooked up Amazon -- he worked on Wall Street and became VP of an investment bank before he got the e-commerce bug. (This is why he can afford to pay himself essentially nothing.) He knew he wanted "in" when e-commerce started heating up, and so analyzed the market.
He came down to six primary markets -- music was one, books was another (I can't recall off the top of my head what the other four were). He couldn't do music because that market is owned by about half a dozen entrenched players. (The four other markets had similar issues.) But books were a different situation. Many publishers, no real entrenched players, lots of room for disruption.
He then researched where to settle his new company, and chose Seattle, because of the high tech workforce nearby, and the fact that some major book distributors had their warehouses there. Amazon could "use" the distributor's warehouses, and just order on demand. Close proximity meant cheap overnight shipping to Amazon, who would then put the books into their own boxes after a quick examination to ensure customer satisfaction. (The Amazon boxes became a marketing tool -- people reused them for sending their own packages, spreading the Amazon brand far and wide.)
So really, Bezos got into books not because he was a dyed in the wool bibliophile or some similar romantic notion, but because it was a cold, calculated business decision. As such, Gaiman shouldn't expect anything else than the status quo from Bezos. Amazon probably could indeed stop selling books tomorrow and not hurt its bottom line, and Bezos a. wouldn't care, and b. would do it in an instant if it meant more profit. (On that last point, it's pretty clear that this is his intent -- to migrate everyone onto e-books, which eliminate the warehousing and shipping headaches, AKA "more profit.")
[–]Venicedreaming 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 18 時間 前
Lol how scared is 50 Shades of Grey
[–]southernbruh 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 18 時間 前
Who is he kidding. Nothing is sacred anymore. When business negotiations go public this what you see.
[–]mostlybranGreat Expectations 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 17 時間 前
Am I the only one who thinks that books can be sacred and therefore should be cheap?
[–]CatRelatedUsername 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 17 時間 前
Books will not die. They will just change form, like when we went from clay tablets to papyrus, and from papyrus to the modern codex.
[–]ConstipatedNinjaa way a lone a last a loved a long the riverrun 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 9 時間 前
Did nobody actually read the article?
There's like five paragraphs of speech skipped with the ellipsis. Gaiman is actually torn on the whole debate. Here's a different quote (not chopped horribly up) from the same article:
I’m 53 now. I would really love it if by the time I’m 65 the landscape of publishing is completely unrecognizable. I’m loving the fact that part of the unexpected consequences of things likes Kindles and Nook is books are getting more beautiful.
Does that sound like someone who is against the ebook transition?
[–]ToastyRyder 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 6 時間 前
One of my first jobs was working for a bookseller about 12 years ago (before online stores were a real threat), NOBODY in that business treated books as "sacred". I saw whole boxes of "bestseller" books pulled off the shelves, covers torn off (for returning) and the rest thrown in the dumpster. They did this to pretty much every major new release - order far too many copies, wait a couple of months and firesale the remaining inventory at stupidly low prices, then take what's left of that and rip it up.
Selling books is a business just like anything else, any of these authors holding precious, sentimental notions towards the business obviously don't understand the day-to-day reality of what goes on (or they're just worried about losing their advances for upcoming books and stooging for their publishers).
[–]carlson_001 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 6 時間 前
If your books are so sacred, you'd sell them for as cheap as possible or free.
[–]BeauCee 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 8 時間 前
fuck publishers, uni textbooks are the biggest scam and i'm pretty sure is the only thing keeping the publishing industry rich.
[–]vagina_worms 18 ポイント19 ポイント20 ポイント 19 時間 前
He's got his head up his own arse. Nothing is this world is 'sacred' certainly not books. Pretentious prick.
[–]HoldenTite 15 ポイント16 ポイント17 ポイント 19 時間 前
People should be concerned if one seller has to much control over the market.
While there are more books being written and published today, the fact is most of them will never see a mass audience. Why would a company want to waste valuable resources promoting and selling a book that would not be profitable? And this in turn will hurt publishers. Why pay an author to write something that will only sell 10,000 copies?
It won't be a sudden change, no, but over time you will see less choices. You will see less adventurous(in terms of format or content) books. It is the way of business.
[–]captainRainbows 15 ポイント16 ポイント17 ポイント 18 時間 前
Authors receive approximately 10-15% of royalties from a publisher, where as if they publish on amazon (who only does digital) they receive 70% if they sell for less than 10$ and 30% if they sell above (they do it to encourage authors to set their price below I think). It's also easier to be published on it and reach a mass audience, however publishers have their benefits as well. All I'm saying it's not as cut and dry as you're making it
[–]cavehobbitThe Wise Man's Fear 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 18 時間 前
People should be concerned if one seller has to much control over the market...
True. But when the price of entry into the market is low, competitors will appear. It is when the cost of entry is high, or artificial barriers are en-placed that problems occur. I have seen articles recently about the actual growth of independant bookstores. Many publishers will sell directly to readers, (which I think will become more common), many authros publish online for free, donation or direct sales. Many are experimenting with many ways to reach and serve their customers, audience and fans.
Whatever the future holds, using the old paradigm as the touchstone for the future is shortsighted.
Most books before Amazon also did not see a mass audience. I remember going to books stores that specialized in remaindered books, (left overs) that you could buy cheap because publishers could not sell all of a first print run. I have not seen a remainder store in a couple decades now. I suspect, but cannot prove that online selling allows small-print and fringe books to reach a larger share of the audience they serve.
I disagree. Cost of entry to online selling is low. Cost of starting a physical bookstore is higher but not as high as many other retail businesses. And cost of publishing your own material online is next to nothing.
If anything, I predict a greater and wider market for more adventuresome books in the future, as cost to create comes down, cost to distribute comes down, and ease of finding an audience comes down.
Just here on /r/books I have been exposed to more authors and sub-genres that I may ever have found just browsing in a bookstore, as much fun as that is.
In fact my to-read stack has over 2-dozen books in it, and that does not count what is on my wishlist at Amazon. I never would have found Sandman, House of Leaves, Catherynne Valente or many others just browsing in a bookstore. Not to mention all the books I found recommended over in the various /r/History related subs.
So time to get out on my deck, put up the umbrella and finish the book I started yesterday.
[–]HoldenTite 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 18 時間 前
I hope that is the case.
I just don't believe that individual authors will have the resources to reach a massive audience even with the lower cost provide by the internet. It would take a large word of mouth campaign. While publishers will be reluctant to forgo sure sales to bookstores/Amazon for the hope that they can gain more selling directly to consumers.
[–]kyronix[🍰] 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 17 時間 前
I would say, think of it in terms of how the Music industry has changed. Now books are being forced into the online market just like everything else, and thus the dynamic changes.
Take your statement and apply it to Music in the 90's saying artists don't have the resources to reach a massive audience and get radio play. Publishers won't die out for a long time, but they will become less and less relevant, much like massive record labels losing some ground (not all) to smaller operations.
[–]beachyguy 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 20 時間 前
Comic books count too?
[–]LFCsota 5 ポイント6 ポイント7 ポイント 19 時間 前
Well being that Gaimen has written Sandman, a well acclaimed comic book, I think he folds them into books.
[–]TrekkieTechie 4 ポイント5 ポイント6 ポイント 19 時間 前
Amazon's reaction to Neil.
[–]RockDrill 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 15 時間 前
Neil's rection to Amazon.
[–]annoyingstranger 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 17 時間 前
I don't get it.. is Amazon burning the books?
[–]M0dusPwnens 3 ポイント4 ポイント5 ポイント 14 時間 前*
The thing that keeps bothering me is how people are exploiting misconceptions about "monopolies" in this discussion.
I think it's worth pointing out that the argument that Amazon is a monopoly (or, more properly, a monopsony) is very, very misleading.
Most people are far too quick to generalize market dominance to "monopoly" or, more specifically, the kind of very negative monopoly that hurts consumers.
The problem with monopolies is when they act anti-competitively. You can see some signs of this if you look at antitrust laws. Here's a good bit from the WP page for the Sherman Antitrust Act (emphasis mine): "The act is not meant to punish businesses that come to dominate their market passively or on their own merit, only those that intentionally dominate the market through misconduct, which generally consists of conspiratorial conduct of the kind forbidden by Section 1 of the Sherman Act, or Section 3 of the Clayton Act."
There is absolutely no indication that Amazon has done anything like that that. On the other hand, there is every indication that the publishers involved in this debate have done that (see United States v. Apple Inc., et al.). Tellingly, part of the settlement that precluded the sort of price-fixing the publishers were accused of ended about a month ago ("For two years, Settling Defendants shall not restrict, limit, or impede an E-book Retailer’s ability to set, alter, or reduce the Retail Price of any E-book or to offer price discounts or any other form of promotions to encourage consumers to Purchase one or more E-books[...]"). Convenient that this is suddenly a big issue now, no?
And it's not clear how Amazon could maintain an anti-competitive monopoly - the barriers to entry for selling books are not particularly high (and are very low for ebooks) and the economy of scale for shipping books isn't nearly substantial enough to create a natural monopoly (which Amazon would be unlikely to benefit from anyway since it obviously wasn't the first bookseller). Further, Amazon doesn't have comparable resources to their potential competition - Amazon is a tiny company compared to, say, Apple.
If Amazon started charging higher prices than people would pay, it would be extremely easy for a competitor to take their place in the market. Similarly, if they asked for too-low prices from the publishers (assuming the publishers really are in demand as gatekeepers in the way that they advertise themselves), it would be just as easy.
There is no sign that Amazon is behaving anti-competitively. In fact, what's happening right now is, from an economic standpoint, almost certainly a positive development. The ideal situation is one where markets balance themselves out until price equals marginal cost. That's what competition is supposed to do (and what monopolies preclude).
And that's what Amazon is currently doing to the market - that's Amazon's business model for virtually everything: accept razor-thin profit margins and build an extremely efficient system so you can sell a ridiculously high volume.
The argument that Amazon is a problem is the result of nothing but publishers trying to exploit the economic naivety of the public (and authors, particularly those who have profited most from the traditional publishing scheme, jumping on the bandwagon).
By virtually any measure Amazon is bringing more books to more people. It affords more authors a chance at publishing, lets the public decide what it wants to read rather than acting as an artificial gatekeeper, and reduces the price of books by reducing the profit margin.
Amazon's situation is far from a sign that something has gone wrong, it is precisely what it looks like when free markets function well.
[–]the_trashheap 6 ポイント7 ポイント8 ポイント 19 時間 前
Also consider that Gaiman's wife, Amanda Palmer, is currently working on a book to be published with Hachette. I suppose that makes it a little personal for him.
I can't imagine reading a book by her though. Her blog posts (those few which I unfortunately read) are utterly incoherent.
[–]HLAW7 9 ポイント10 ポイント11 ポイント 19 時間 前
hahahah sacred ground some authors are so hilariously detached from society
[–]rabidhamster87 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 19 時間 前
Wasn't this just posted a few days ago? Must've been another subreddit...
[–]awhiled 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 19 時間 前
I used to love going to brick and mortal bookstores - I still do really, but when you go to even a used bookstore and the prices are 2-3 times higher than Amazon, it becomes hard to justify even the most spur of the moment purchase.
One of my favorite things to do waiting for a flight was to peruse a bookstore and find a book to read on the flight. Now being used to Amazon pricing, the idea of even considering purchasing an airport-priced book puts me off...
[–]VsevolodVodka 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 18 時間 前
Mr. Neil obviously does not recognizes amount of work required to produce other goods that Amazon selling with discounts. It is selfish to put his own work writing books above R&D and stuff like that, especially to call it "sacred".
[–]Lol_Im_A_Monkey 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 18 時間 前
TIL you are not allowed to like books if you also like free markets. Protect the authors with regulations! herp derp.
[–]BabyPuncher5000 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 18 時間 前
If he truly believe that he should be equally pissed at the publishers.
[–]LeonAquilla 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 18 時間 前
Ugh. Religious zealots, am I right guys? Why can't they just quit imposing their beliefs on everyone else.
[–]iatethefruit 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 18 時間 前
Gaiman could not be more wrong on this one. Books are not sacred ground, especially for the greedy. Amazon all the way.
[–]ugandanmethodPostmodern 0 ポイント1 ポイント2 ポイント 18 時間 前
Books are sacred
Nah. They're just entertainment. Or education. Either way, just books.
[–]alligatorscrocs 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 17 時間 前
I think it should be noted that publishers have never dealt with authors and their books in any other way than a business transaction. Amazon is doing nothing new here.
[–]RedditardsAhoy 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 17 時間 前
ITT: "Im mad because fledgling authors that are actually good but didn't have the resources or connections to get published, can now find alternatives to the corrupt and botched publishing system that exists today! Fuck competition!"
[–]Oderus_Scumdog 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 16 時間 前
From what I've surmised from a rash of threads like this, is that the issue falls in to the realm of Competition, and people argue that Amazon are forming a monopoly over the book publishing market and are undercutting the competition. Is this something like the case?
Full disclosure: I'm becoming increasingly invested in the Amazon ecosystem (Prime, Kindle, Amazon MP3, Amazon retail) and very much enjoy the service(s) Amazon provide me as a consumer to the point where I have not pirated a piece of music or a book for several years because the service(s) Amazon offer me give me instant access at a reasonable cost and a decent amount of choice with a minimum of DRM, which is a big sticking point for me.
Edit: Finishing a thought
[–]cre8tive1 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 16 時間 前
Respect Neil Gaiman for his work, but I do not agree with him. Amazon is a business. They sell books. They can sell them for whatever the hell they want. I like free markets. Also, the cheaper the books are, the more likely people are to buy them. That means more people reading.
It shouldn't be a luxury. And sometimes I honestly think it is when I see the prices of some books (ie. 30-60 dollars for some that i've wanted). Yeah, you can go to the Library, but the library isn't going to have everything. And depending on your district it may not have the funds to get every new book out there. So you end up having to buy it. Expensively, usually.
[–]bigwangbowski 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 16 時間 前
I love Neil Gaiman, but the guy is so far up his own ass that he's become a kind of boschian ouroboros.
[–]Zorkamork 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 16 時間 前
Oh wow the guy who makes his living off churning out constant 'special editions' of his old works (Sandman's up to what, five unique collections of the same stories?) doesn't like Amazon.
Maybe books are sacred, but Gaiman sure doesn't treat them as such.
[–]thelazerbeast 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 16 時間 前
Books should have tiered pricing. I'd pay more for a bundle with the book, ebook, and audiobook.
[–]spammonia 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 15 時間 前*
Books were printed and published by Gutenberg for easy access for the people. The high and mighty churches were usually the ones painstakingly writing by hand most (unique, irreplaceable, priceless) books (bibles) and this made books seem "sacred" amongst the poor. Today, bibles are handed out freely and found in hotel rooms. Why are authors and publishers getting so angry over making books more accessible to the public in the form of lower priced options and ebooks? That's called progress and change. This notion of "sacred" books is highly antiquated and subjective, and it makes the authors and publishers boasting of their sacred works seem laughable and very silly.
[–]guspaz 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 15 時間 前
I still don't get why Amazon is the bad guy for trying to get lower prices for books. The publishers are charging more for eBooks than hardcovers, and that's just nuts.
[–]ycnz 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 14 時間 前
A reminder: Hachette are not your friend: http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/columns-and-blogs/cory-doctorow/article/53544-doubling-down-on-drm.html
[–]smerdykov 2 ポイント3 ポイント4 ポイント 13 時間 前
My whole perspective on this argument can be summarized by likening traditional publishers to traditional music distribution methods. Nobody wants to buy CDs anymore, great, we get it. That industry is done, now you buy MP3s! Even better, you subscribe to Spotify and Pandora and listen to endless amounts of music that you wouldn't have done before. We are making PROGRESS, meanwhile, musicians are still making money. No, people aren't becoming millionaires off of their albums, but rather by touring, building a fanbase, licensing. Touring in particular is just like it was before there was recorded music.
When it comes to books, I have no sympathy for Hachette or Amazon. Both are huge companies, and trusts are bad. However, I think it should be up to the people to bust the trusts in this case. What I think will come to pass is that book production and distribution will become decentralized. Self-publishing will become a more mainstream way to put out your book, and it will allow you to control electronic distribution as well! There's no reason to use Amazon to a distribute an ebook right now aside from the obvious benefits of quick and easy distribution (which is obviously not nothing).
However, I think these types of disputes need to happen to show people that there's more than one way to get your writing out there. If Neil Gaiman self-published a new book and sold it off of a private website, don't you think people would still by it? Obviously, he's had the benefit of a publisher in getting his name out there, but I feel like in the future there will be many more avenues to build a following without having to split profits with a huge corporation.
[–]mylibertarianaccount 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 12 時間 前
Okay he may feel books are sacred but that doesn't make it so. Unless literature itself (i.e. not specific peeves of literature) is a religion, then books aren't sacred, they're stories written in paper.
[–]Drift3r 1 ポイント2 ポイント3 ポイント 11 時間 前
Where was this jackass when Apple and book publishers were jacking up the price of e-books again??
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