1
194
195

Rape Drama/r/MensRights has a level-headed discussion about college rape: "If you're in a US college, don't have sex. Don't enter a woman's room, don't let them into yours, don't drink with them, don't be near them when you even think they could be drunk, don't even flirt with them." (np.reddit.com)

submitted by pedoarchist

top 200 commentsshow 500
sorted by:
best
best
トップ
新着
注目
論争中
古い順

[–]Ask_If_I_Care 37 ポイント38 ポイント

Have sex in public... it's truly the only place you can be safe.

[–]ProbablyThrowaway23 10 ポイント11 ポイント

You're joking but this happened.

[–]_jayjaybee_ 14 ポイント15 ポイント

Is this the case where MRA's had a witch hunt to find the woman in that video, found a girl from the school who looked similar to her, and barraged her with threats and harassment?

In other words, is this the story where MRA's made a false accusation about a false accusation?

[–]ProbablyThrowaway23 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Wow, stay classy MRAs. That's like when /r/Mr flooded some university with false rape accusations because false rape accusations are terrible or something.

[–]sircerx 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Precisely what reddit at large did to the Boston Bomber.

[–]PatriarchalOverlord 0 ポイント1 ポイント

How dare you break the anti-MRA circlejerk and suggest that most of reddit is just as shitty as MensRights! Don't you know that we're shilling for feminists, today?!

[–]katamariroller 83 ポイント84 ポイント

I like how he goes from making the point that one rape case might be false, to making the totally logically consistent conclusion that all college men should remain celibate.

[–]beanfiddler 66 ポイント67 ポイント

There's slippery slopes, and then there's driving your logical fallacy off a mile-high cliff at 80 miles an hour.

[–]stuman89 5 ポイント6 ポイント

I mean obviously that would happen, the slope was slippery. There is no other way that it could end when dealing with a slippery slope.

[–]mach-2 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Well what's the angle of the inclined plane that would require the fallacy to run off at 80 miles per hour given that gravity is constant?

[–]sweetalkersweetalker 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Is it an African or a European plane?

[–]stuman89 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Well, the angle would at least be a bitcoin user rationalizing how something is good for bitcoin. There would be multiple more angles that would work though.

[–]mysanityisrelative 6 ポイント7 ポイント

It depends on the coefficient of friction of the slope (μ), the time on the slope (t) and the initial velocity of the fallacy in question (v):

 θ=ArcCos[1/(  t (1. + 1. μ^2)) (-0.0000192894 Sqrt[t^2(2.68759*10^9 + 2.68759*10^9 μ^2) - 
  2.5921*10^6 (80. - 1. v)^2] + μ (-2.48447 + 0.0310559 v)

Assuming that the slope is very slippery (μ=1), the fallacy starts from a standstill (v=0) and has one hour to develop (t=1) we get and angle of about 57 degrees.

[–]Alex_the_Okay 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Very slippery would mean a μ of close to 0, not 1.

[–]mysanityisrelative 4 ポイント5 ポイント

That's what I get for trying to do physics while tired.

[–]Broccoli_Thief 1 ポイント2 ポイント

/r/theytriedtodothemath ?

[–]cptal 0 ポイント1 ポイント

At what point did subreddits become hastags?

[–]Broccoli_Thief 1 ポイント2 ポイント

There is a subreddit called /r/theydidthemath and since the guy tried to do it but failed, I made a joke out of it.

load more comments (1 返事)

    load more comments (2 返事)

      [–]Lochen9 3 ポイント4 ポイント

      That's the same reason I don't eat food because people choke and die on it.

      [–]Legolas-the-elf 7 ポイント8 ポイント

      he goes from making the point that one rape case might be false

      That's not his point. His point is that there are institutional attitudes in play that have the effect of a) convincing a woman who does not feel raped that she is, in fact, a rape victim, and b) using that to persecute an innocent man.

      By all means, disagree with the point he is making or the conclusions he is drawing, but in order to do so, first you've got to understand the point it is that he is making, and it's not "this case might be false".

      [–]thesubtleshill 0 ポイント1 ポイント

      college men should remain celibate.

      I honestly don't see any thing wrong with that, if they don't wish to engage in sexual activity for whatever the reason and how silly it might be, its their choice, so power to them...i guess?

      load more comments (4 返事)

        [–]Klondeikbar 132 ポイント133 ポイント

        See, the linked comment is what's wrong with all this MRA bullshit. They take something that might be a legitimate false rape accusation, and right towards the end of their analysis they blow it up into this massive conspiracy where being a man in the presence of a woman will get you jail time. The fact that false rape accusations with any traction are so rare and yet MRA treats them like such a common event doesn't help either.

        [–]modd25 70 ポイント71 ポイント

        Guys, if you're in a US college, don't have sex. Don't enter a woman's room, don't let them into yours, don't drink with them, don't be near them when you even think they could be drunk, don't even flirt with them when they're sober. You are not safe near them.

        I think its really interesting how exaggerated this statement is about men taking precaution, yet I hear/read people telling women to have the same severity of precautions to avoid rape/sexual assault, and being 100% serious about.

        Im not saying the MRAs are saying that necessarily, but I just find it interesting that guy is making hyperboles as if that isnt the way some of society views women.

        [–]mark10579 34 ポイント35 ポイント

        And they're both sexist fuckin attitudes, to men and women. Also that dude wasn't exaggerating or making hyperbole, he actually believes it

        [–]cptal 5 ポイント6 ポイント

        Lesse. Don't drink. Never leave a drink unattended. Don't wear slutty clothes. Don't go to parties, bathrooms, bars, public transportation, outside in the dark, places where alcohol exists without friends and mace and a rape whistle. Never be alone with men, never engage men, never engage men alone.

        Sounds about right

        [–]Klondeikbar 12 ポイント13 ポイント

        Because the probability of a woman being raped is much higher than the probability of a man being falsely accused of rape. It makes sense that we'd encourage more caution.

        Also, his precautions are to literally flee from the opposite gender. No one is telling women to avoid all men at all costs.

        [–]fiwer 18 ポイント19 ポイント

        Because the probability of a woman being raped is much higher than the probability of a man being falsely accused of rape. It makes sense that we'd encourage more caution.

        What's the probability of being raped and what's the probability of being falsely accused of rape?

        [–]_jayjaybee_ 54 ポイント55 ポイント

        If you're asking because you're genuinely curious, I'll try to help you out.

        This is a recent study done by the FBI that shows that about 8% of accusations are unfounded. As unfounded does not mean false, it is reasonable to conclude that less than 8% of accusations are false.

        The largest study done was done by the British Home Office in 2003, and it found false accusations to be about 3%, which is lower than the average of other crimes.

        I also found this piece by Buzzfeed. Considering where it comes from, take it with a grain of salt. However, the writer of the piece got his information from the FBI and the Department of Justice, and it does put some things in perspective. I especially think the final statistic, that men are MUCH more likely to be raped themselves (1 in 33) than they are of being falsely accused of it, is pretty eye-opening.

        If you have anymore questions I'll try to help out more.

        [–]SilvioBurlesPwny 12 ポイント13 ポイント

        Thank you.

        [–]_jayjaybee_ 9 ポイント10 ポイント

        Thank you for listening. If you'd like to know more, I found a few more pieces you may find interesting. If not, just disregard the following and have a nice day :)

        This piece elaborates on "unfounded" reports vs. false reports.

        This piece talks a bit more about the British study I mentioned earlier, and also talks a bit about why false accusations, weather legitimately false or just unfounded, happen.

        I tried searching for a few more things by googling "unbiased rape statistics," but one of the search choices was from an abomination of a website called chimpout.com (don't go there oh my god please don't go there) so I think I'll stop for now.

        [–]SilvioBurlesPwny 1 ポイント2 ポイント

        I appreciate these too. It is something I am aware of. I just finished law school and studied a lot about sexual assault and institutional barriers that prevent women (and men) from reporting sexual assault. That was just very articulate, well placed, and substantiated by empirical data.

        load more comments (2 返事)

          [–]BolshevikMuppet 0 ポイント1 ポイント

          It's important to note that the definition of "unfounded" in that study can be argued to be both under-inclusive and over-inclusive. You're correct that some number of true accusations will lack even some baseline of evidence. But you're ignoring that there would also likely be some number of false accusations which would have that baseline of evidence. The amount of type-one versus type-two error in that number is debatable

          And that's without getting into the rate of true/false accusation in anything other than forcible rape. That study only considers forcible rape. I won't speculate as to a change in those numbers if other forms of rape were included.

          Note as well that in the same study, 0.07% of women were victims of forcible rape in the years studied. Which actually means the chances of a rape accusation being false in that time period exceeded the chances of any individual woman being raped in that period.

          men are MUCH more likely to be raped themselves (1 in 33) than they are of being falsely accused of it, is pretty eye-opening.

          Hang on. The crime index definitions given in the FBI study cited say that 77/100,000 women were victims of violent rape in the years studied. The lifetime likelihood of being raped would not significantly exceed that. Are we really saying that men were more than four times as likely to be raped than women?

          I'd be willing to bet that the difference is in how the studies define rape.

          [–]_jayjaybee_ 7 ポイント8 ポイント

          No, I was saying that men are more likely to be raped than to be falsely accused of it, not that they're more likely to be raped than women are.

          load more comments (6 返事)

            [–]Klondeikbar 2 ポイント3 ポイント

            Are you legitimately asking for those numbers or are you going to lead this into some ridiculous assertion that men are falsely accused of rape just as often as women are actually raped?

            load more comments (5 返事)

              [–]Roshambo_You 7 ポイント8 ポイント

              You not heard about those poisoned M&Ms?

              [–]Peacefulzealot 3 ポイント4 ポイント

              Okay, I'll bite. Will someone explain what the heck is going on with the M&M's thing? I'm a bit in the dark here.

              [–]ShameHider 11 ポイント12 ポイント

              I think people are referring to this poster maybe?

              [–]HashTag-YoloSwag 14 ポイント15 ポイント

              It's not a very good analogy because it implies that women want to eat entire fistfulls of men at once. To devour them with no regard for individuals because the only thing that matters are their delicious innards running together as one chocolatey lump.

              [–]Peacefulzealot 9 ポイント10 ポイント

              Well, that certainly does look relevant. So it's saying that 10% of folks are going to be monsters? Sorry, really not seeing what it is right off the bat. Thank you for the help though!

              [–]Kiwilolo 12 ポイント13 ポイント

              I believe it's referring to rape statistics, ie, 1 in 10 men in the US has raped before. Not sure where those statistics are from, but I have heard them before.

              [–]dodecadan 3 ポイント4 ポイント

              1 in 10 men in the US has raped before.

              Sounds like bullshit to me. I forget where I read this, but even if we assumed that all rape accusations were true and only men committed rape, it would only be 0.05 (0.5? I don't remember) percent of men.

              [–]Kiwilolo 3 ポイント4 ポイント

              Well, I think it is fairly agreed upon that many (most?) rapes are not reported to the authorities. But it's impossible to tell with certainty with these self-reported things.

              load more comments (2 返事)

                [–]Roshambo_You 10 ポイント11 ポイント

                After Elliot Rodger and all the hating women stuff a popular tumblr blogger and basement dweller who goes by the handle "The Frogman" made a statement that went along the lines of: "You say not all men are bad? Well here's a bowl of M&Ms but 10% are poison, go ahead eat a handful." It got turned into a poster by some marauding SJWs and is getting flak for being a fucking stupid statment/poster.

                [–]eubravic 13 ポイント14 ポイント

                MRAs are SJWs too.

                [–]Junoh315 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                Some are, but some do not appear to be. It's like saying that feminists are all SJWs when this is not true. People who advocate social equality instead of social justice seem to exist in both groups which means there are at least some that aren't SJWs.

                There are definitely some MRA SJWs though. They fight hard against their opposition instead of realizing that they can work together to make the world a better place. They fight injustices that they perceive everywhere, even if it's only a minor issue(or not even a real issue). Every once in a while they fight for a decent cause but a broken clock is right twice a day.

                [–]Doshman 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                And MRAs are quoting it incessantly, which is just typical, really

                [–]Roshambo_You 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                This is true, it's a bullshit statement that requires no debate.

                [–]chwyrligwgan 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                It's not about avoiding all men; it's that the bell curve of behavior over pleasantness to violence is fatter. #Yes, all women deal with unpleasant behavior from men on a regular basis. The law of averages spills that into extreme unpleasantness for a great many.

                [–]deliaaaaaa 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                Hell, men are also more likely to BE raped than be falsely accused of it.

                [–]crackeraddict 14 ポイント15 ポイント

                You make a good point here.

                What actually happened to this case and everything else surrounding it? Did the guy go to jail? Is he currently serving his time? Is he living in a shoe? All the other information?

                You'd think that would be the top comment.

                And then after they gave out all the information you would think they would attempt to suggest to people to maybe call up the school in question or the DA or whoever. You know organize to help this person out, if they really believe he was wronged.

                Instead it's a circlejerk conspiracy about evil wymynz.

                [–]SanchoMandoval 17 ポイント18 ポイント

                Yeahh I'm always suspicious when people are raging over quotes and snippets and nobody seems concerned with the overall context of what happened.

                After some Googling, it seems that Occidental College investigated the incident and expelled the male student. However, the police concluded no crime occurred and he was never even arrested.

                [–]crackeraddict 9 ポイント10 ポイント

                After some Googling, it seems that Occidental College investigated the incident and expelled the male student[1] . However, the police concluded no crime occurred and he was never even arrested.

                See, now that should have been the top comment.

                And that is what mensrights should be complaining about. Expelled him but police found no crime. I could see them taking an issue with that.

                Instead it's a circlejerk without the full information.

                Get pissed at the expulsion when police didn't even arrest. Suggest looking to help the kid. Anything. Not say don't have sex in college, that's just straight up stupid.

                [–]Lawtonfogle 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                Get pissed at the expulsion when police didn't even arrest. Suggest looking to help the kid. Anything. Not say don't have sex in college, that's just straight up stupid.

                Except the advice pretty closely fits. He had consensual sex, with plenty of evidence, such as the text, showing it was consensual. The woman didn't even think she was raped at first.

                And he ends up expelled, his academic career in ruins, his reputation in ruins. Oh, we wasn't arrested or jailed, but he still took a very big blow. From consensual sex, which even the police called consensual.

                So if you are in college, you can get expelled for what is legally considered consensual sex.

                load more comments (5 返事)

                  load more comments (1 返事)

                    [–]cited 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                    You know, I'm not losing sleep over these guys not getting laid.

                    [–]eubravic 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                    Goddamn misandrist.

                    [–]AlamedaSlim 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                    Exactly! I personally feel like that about both sides of the spectrum. It feels like it's mostly hate, anger, conspiracy and very little actual 'good work'. IMO MRA's and feminists fight the same cause, gender equality and the ability to choose and live the life you want. But I mean it's the internet... I just really hate how men and women on reddit dislike eachother.

                    [–]ryegye24 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                    I'm gonna end up posting this every time gender wars drama gets posted here. http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2939

                    load more comments (1 返事)

                      [–]kogeth -1 ポイント0 ポイント

                      Yep, that's pretty much my entire problem with MRA. No one's disputing that this ONE guy in this ONE instance got railroaded unjustly... but there's no larger message here, just anomalies that people who should be on medication spend for too much time on.

                      load more comments (13 返事)

                        [–]Sarandana 167 ポイント168 ポイント

                        Guys, if you're in a US college, don't have sex. Don't enter a woman's room, don't let them into yours, don't drink with them, don't be near them when you even think they could be drunk, don't even flirt with them when they're sober. You are not safe near them.

                        That guy's got it right. All of us evil feminist wimminz salivate at the thought of entrapping a guy in a sexual encounter and then falsely accusing him of rape. It's been our ultimate goal all along, really.

                        What if the roles were changed, and it was a feminist who said:

                        Girls, if you're in a US college, don't have sex. Don't enter a man's room, don't let them into yours, don't drink with them, don't be near them when you even think they could be drunk, don't even flirt with them when they're sober. You are not safe near them.

                        There's no way the MRAs wouldn't start crying and screaming about misandry and feminist fearmongering. They'd be crying for weeks.

                        [–]pittsnoggle 68 ポイント69 ポイント

                        There's no way the MRAs wouldn't start crying and screaming about misandry and feminist fearmongering. They'd be crying for weeks.

                        That's what struck me as odd. Isn't attitude the exact thing that sub complains about?

                        I honestly rolled my eyes when I saw the title because I was sure the link had to be sarcasm/tongue-in-cheek, but it appears it isn't.

                        [–]SpermJackalope 64 ポイント65 ポイント

                        They whine about "fearmongering" and "creepshaming" while simultaneously being the people who claim women need to learn to avoid being raped - which can only be achieved by, you know, never trusting men.

                        [–]Danimal2485 36 ポイント37 ポイント

                        Because they are purely a reactionary group, there is no overarching ideas or philosophy that guides them, which makes them hilariously inconsistent.

                        [–]BenIncognito 45 ポイント46 ポイント

                        The only response to this is "not all women..."

                        [–]dsklerm 39 ポイント40 ポイント

                        God I would just love that. If someone were to burst into this conversation and say. "Excuse me, but allow me to give the female perspective... Now I know there are some bad apples out there, but not all women..." Followed by paragraph after paragraph of explanation, citing "evolutionary needs", cultural demonization, etc etc

                        [–]_jayjaybee_ 20 ポイント21 ポイント

                        I remember when I started seeing every discussion of rape (every. fucking. discussion.) on reddit get derailed by "women can be rapists too you know!" Once false rape accusation conversations started getting more popular, it was so hard not to derail the fuck out of them with "men can be false rape accusers too, you know!"

                        [–]Alexandra_xo 9 ポイント10 ポイント

                        I always wonder why that never gets mentioned. When hypothetical false rape accusations are talked about and gendered pronouns are used, it's always "she can accuse him at any time!" Never gender-neutral, or god forbid, the other way around. It's kind of like how most hypothetical rape is discussed with the woman being the victim (though I think that's thankfully changing more and more).

                        [–]mincerray 87 ポイント88 ポイント

                        if you're REAL lucky and get pregnant, you could get the chance to take care of another human being for 18 years!!!

                        [–]bjossymandias 40 ポイント41 ポイント

                        pft who needs luck when you can spermjack?

                        [–]sleepy55 37 ポイント38 ポイント

                        Spermjacking is literally the most clear and present danger towards men in the 21st century, after being registered as a sex offender for peeing in public of course.

                        [–]E_pluribus_scrotum 23 ポイント24 ポイント

                        This happened to a friend of a friend's cousin's uncle in some midwestern city once, I heard about it from one of my frat bros. So you know it happens all the time.

                        load more comments (2 返事)

                          [–]BEZthePEZ 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                          >spermjack

                          beautiful phrase/10

                          [–]Thai_Hammer 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                          That requires skill my friend.

                          [–]Doshman 21 ポイント22 ポイント

                          if you're REAL lucky and get pregnant, you could get the chance to take care of another human being never have to work and sponge of the efforts of a man for 18 years!!!

                          le ftfy

                          [–]ewat85 53 ポイント54 ポイント

                          Girls, if you're in a US college, don't have sex. Don't enter a man's room, don't let them into yours, don't drink with them, don't be near them when you even think they could be drunk, don't even flirt with them when they're sober. You are not safe near them.

                          Isn't that something that girls and women get told all the time? Like, I am absolutely dead serious here. I feel like women are told not to go into strange men's rooms, not to let strange men into their rooms, not to drink with strangers, and not to put "yourself in dangerous situations"

                          [–]chmodugo-wx 10 ポイント11 ポイント

                          The adjective 'strange' changes the statement completely.

                          [–]TheOneFreeEngineer 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                          agreed, but even without the strange addition, many girls from socially conservative families do indeed get told that.

                          [–]ewat85 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                          I didn't mean strange as in "weird" I meant strange as in "unknown/strangers"

                          [–]Baggel 25 ポイント26 ポイント

                          not to let strange men into their rooms

                          Unfortunately statistics prove that it's men who aren't strangers that you've gotta watch out for. :/

                          [–]evilbrent 11 ポイント12 ポイント

                          Rape culture

                          [–]10z20Luka 8 ポイント9 ポイント

                          told not to go into strange men's rooms, not to let strange men into their rooms, not to drink with strangers, and not to put "yourself in dangerous situations"

                          Honestly, dead serious here. Don't stereotype me as a SJW or a MRA or anything.

                          Why is that statement above unreasonable? Forget implications regarding slut shaming and double standards. That specific statement, no underlying tone.

                          [–]Dietastey 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                          I think the difference is between "strangers" as was used in the above example, and people you might know. Yes, it is usually better to avoid being alone with a complete stranger in a possibly dangerous situation, regardless of your gender. However, man or woman, it is kinda ridiculous to be told "never" to be in a room alone with the opposite gender, because they will rape you/accuse you of rape.

                          [–]evilbrent 10 ポイント11 ポイント

                          Because it's a part of uni life.

                          You meet some of the coolest people and have some of the most exciting, sexual or otherwise, adventures with new and interesting people at university. Thankfully I made it through university without having to have any sexual adventures (sarcasm) but I slept on the floor of at least four females college rooms. Just friends. Fucking awesome nights getting blind drunk and stumbling about until dawn climbing up into the rooves and taking huge road trips for no real reason.

                          Part of rape culture is to make young women needlessly afraid of the harmless young men around them and it puts that seed of fear into their heart. Yes, be aware, yes be in control of your own drink, yes avoid places and situations... but just make sure to separate the message about looking out for the fuckheads from the message to enjoy yourself while you're young.

                          I think that actually a good deal of the enduring valuable friendships I have now as an adult are women I bonded with during those crazy days of hedonism and enthusiasm. If rape culture had been as prevalent then as now I worry that those friends I now have would have kept their distance - but it wouldn't have changed the actual fact of rape in universities, it would have only increased the paranoia.

                          [–]alukima 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                          I'm from a slightly different age group than many redditors (30's) and when I was a pre-teen/teen it was:

                          told not to talk to strange men, not to wear your bathing suit in front of men, not to hang out with men, and not to put "yourself in dangerous situations"

                          The unaddressed issue in all of this is that most attacks/rapes are perpetrated by someone who knows the victim. The even scarier thing is that sometimes the perpetrator doesn't realize it's rape. So all of this is a dance around telling men what constitutes rape and allowing women to realize and confront all types of rape.

                          load more comments (3 返事)

                            load more comments (1 返事)

                              [–]PyreDruid 36 ポイント37 ポイント

                              That guy's got it right. All of us evil feminist wimminz salivate at the thought of entrapping a guy in a sexual encounter and then falsely accusing him of rape. It's been our ultimate goal all along, really.

                              Then they aren't going nearly far enough.

                              Don't even go to college. Drop out of high school. Buy a shovel. Build a bunker in the back yard and move in. Don't forget the "No Girls Allowed" sign.

                              [–]PunxsatownyPhil 16 ポイント17 ポイント

                              You're the last sane man in an insane world, Kenji.

                              [–]Doshman 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                              Kenji was the best character and he should have had an ending.

                              [–]Sarandana 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                              Don't forget to wear a Hazmat suit to keep the cooties out

                              load more comments (2 返事)

                                [–]beanfiddler 37 ポイント38 ポイント

                                Depends on the day, honestly. I'd say about 50% of them would say it's good advice, because women need to be "responsible for their actions."

                                It helps to remember that they really don't have a coherent ideology other than feminism is bad and women are probably out to get them.

                                [–]Brotistic_Savant 10 ポイント11 ポイント

                                don't teach men to avoid false accusations of rape, teach women not to make false accusations of rape!

                                [–]daho0n 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                To be fair (not that MRA deserve it) that does sound an awful lot like some feminists, especially in TwoX.

                                [–]sandmaninasylum 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                See the bright side: all you evil feminists are making it easier for us evil gays to rape our dorm mates.

                                And since rape isn't real we only showed them how beta they truly are.

                                [–]StrawRedditor 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                                Actually, the feminist version would be exactly the same as the first. "Teach men not to rape" amirite?

                                Not to mention that literally the only reason this was even possible (being expelled despite being found innocent by the actual legal system) was because of Title IX (and the dear colleague letter)... it reduced the standard of evidence from "Beyond a reasonable doubt" to "a preponderance" That was basically 100% introduced and supported by feminists/feminist lobbies... like, it's not even the least bit debatable, not even close.

                                So why don't you think feminism/feminists should be criticized for this? Are you being serious right now?

                                Criticize MRA's all you want, but at the end of the day, they aren't responsible for passing actual nationwide legislation as shit as that... can't really compare to a few mean comments from some anonymous MRA's.

                                load more comments (28 返事)

                                  [–]E_pluribus_scrotum 41 ポイント42 ポイント

                                  And nothing of value was lost to any college women anywhere.

                                  [–]HardEctoCooler 35 ポイント36 ポイント

                                  How long before we have gendered colleges? Ofcourse then the womyn will complain that they are being segregated.

                                  non-ironic use of womyn

                                  I agree. Men shouldn't have to live in fear like this. Giving up and jerking off alone in your dorm room doesn't solve anything; it simply avoids the problem. We gotta fight! For our right! To paaaartaay!

                                  BROS! BROS! BROS! BROS! BROS!

                                  Yes! If all guys on college campuses did this, then there would be an outcry from all the "blueballed" women to the feminists to knock off all the rape hysteria because nobody's getting laid anymore. Ahhh, if only that would work. What a brilliant backlash.

                                  I'm pretty sure no one wants to have sex with someone who writes like they're pretending to be an evil genius super villain. That didn't work well for Elliot Rodgers.

                                  Reminds me of an old Greek tale where the women withheld sex from their husbands until they stopped waging war... I don't really remember that much of it but I think it was along those lines at least. I also think it kind of backfired too, not sure.

                                  Women can't survive without male sexuality. They straight up need our dicks.

                                  I'm an attorney. I should be getting on the suing colleges. Man this looks like there is bank to be made on these cases. That's really the only way this will stop.

                                  As an actual internet lawyer, I should construct revenge fantasy and possibly tie up courts with frivolous lawsuits for my own personal gain.

                                  Why do people think MRAs misogynists again? Oh right, shit like this.

                                  [–]Binky_has_spoken 26 ポイント27 ポイント

                                  Women can't survive without male sexuality. They straight up need our dicks.

                                  I know you're joking, but IIRC in ancient Greece they seriously believed this. They believed women could go crazy from having a dry uterus, and that's where we derive the word 'hysteria'.

                                  But of course we know today that that's not true, and MRAs using it as the basis of a conspiracy are just another example of the banality that makes people unable to take them seriously.

                                  [–]crm14250 16 ポイント17 ポイント

                                  Still, I'm pretty sure that dude's referring to the play, Lysistrata. It never backfired on the women, the guys were the ones desperate for sex by the end, in addition to not being able to cook themselves food, or look after the kids. Without their wives, they were completely clueless. It's a pretty feminist play, I find it funny an MRA would bring it up to try and support his point.

                                  [–]Lykii 8 ポイント9 ポイント

                                  The fact that he didn't know much about the plot, characters, or even point of the story probably shows he paid attention to roughly 5 minutes of that particular topic in a classic lit course.

                                  [–]HardEctoCooler 15 ポイント16 ポイント

                                  I'm pretty sure there are portions of the world that still believe this, and some of them post on reddit.

                                  [–]Klondeikbar 19 ポイント20 ポイント

                                  I see you've been to the defaults lately.

                                  [–]missandric 13 ポイント14 ポイント

                                  Not just Ancient Greece, up til 19th century. It did give us dildos however, so yay?

                                  [–]drmephesto 8 ポイント9 ポイント

                                  I'm feeling hysterical! Where do I get my prescription?

                                  load more comments (1 返事)

                                    [–]Takuza 11 ポイント12 ポイント

                                    That use of womyn was pretty clearly ironic.

                                    [–]HardEctoCooler 8 ポイント9 ポイント

                                    Maybe it would be more accurate to say they were trying to use it as a slurr?

                                    [–]Takuza 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                                    Yea, but, ironically? Like "This is a term of empowerment some of the more radical people in your camp use/used, let's make fun of you with it".

                                    [–]HardEctoCooler 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                                    Semantics. he was using it to denote a class of people he finds objectionable.

                                    [–]pfohl 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                                    "Womyn" and "wimmin" actually arose from the separatist movement in the 70s. Women who started that convention would have been fine with women's only colleges.

                                    [–]MikoMido 13 ポイント14 ポイント

                                    This is the second time today I'm saying this: I feel sorry for people who are this paranoid.

                                    [–]strugle 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                    Honestly, I'm tired of feeling sorry for misogynists.

                                    load more comments (1 返事)

                                      [–]flirtydodo 43 ポイント44 ポイント

                                      You got no argument from me here, I am all for MRA staying the fuck away from women WOMYN

                                      I guarantee you that a smart guy is NOT the type of guy who gets the most lays in college.

                                      i like this dude, because he focus on the real important issues

                                      Don't pay any attention to him. Your advice is sound. With this hysteria sweeping through educational institutions, it's better to be safe than extremely unlucky.

                                      he said, without an ounce of irony

                                      [–]Kiwilolo 14 ポイント15 ポイント

                                      You got no argument from me here, I am all for MRA staying the fuck away from women WOMYN

                                      My first thought precisely. Him not interacting with any women is a win-win for everyone.

                                      Alright, it's not really a win for him, but he has a chance to mature out of it and in the meantime isn't bothering anyone with his nonsense.

                                      [–]thousanddaysofautumn 6 ポイント7 ポイント

                                      Im all for the MRA's here, don't have sex in college. Actually, be REALLY safe, just never fucking talk to women. Your logical fallacies will never be debunked, tons of women won't possibly lose a contact lens rolling an eye at them.

                                      load more comments (5 返事)

                                        [–]Dajbman22 55 ポイント56 ポイント

                                        You know, maybe telling a bunch of disgruntled, selfish, entitled guys to avoid having sex may not be such a bad thing. At least the blanket statement was directed at its intended audience.

                                        [–][deleted]

                                        [deleted]

                                          [–]Cuddle_Apocalypse 6 ポイント7 ポイント

                                          I'm actually pretty positive that the last survey they had in April was brigaded to hell and back. I hate the subreddit, but it was pretty obvious considering the massive, massive difference between that poll and the one they did before that.

                                          [–]Klondeikbar 36 ポイント37 ポイント

                                          Maybe they'll someday understand their fear of rape charges is pretty unfounded, and that fun, consensual sex is a real possibility with women.

                                          This is the biggest reason I think MRA and TRP are the same thing. They both have this weird toxic and adversarial understanding of sex that infects all of their interactions with women.

                                          [–]dsklerm 21 ポイント22 ポイント

                                          Well that and according to the May 2014 drill down red pill has the 3rd largest overlap with mra (187/2531 active users.) behind askmen and tumblrinaction.

                                          On the may 2014 red pill drill down mra had the 4th highest overlap (behind asktrp, askmen, and seduction) with 198/3526 overlap users.

                                          [–]Klondeikbar 15 ポイント16 ポイント

                                          They'll try to tell you that overlap is actually really small. I'm with you in thinking that's not a small overlap (especially considering how many of them use alts and throwaways) but either way both subs have very warped views of sex that make them two sides of the same coin.

                                          [–]Doshman 12 ポイント13 ポイント

                                          Something that AFAIK I'm the first person to note: /r/MR has roughly 7% TRP posters, whereas /r/thebluepill, a subreddit dedicated exclusively to mocking TRP, has only 6%.

                                          If that isn't telling I don't know what is

                                          [–]dsklerm 15 ポイント16 ポイント

                                          Like honestly, it's like they're paralyzed by the fear that their dick will lead them astray.

                                          Here's a novel concept. Make good choices. You don't have to fuck anyone you don't want to, and if you're concerned about rape accusations... Maybe you SHOULDN'T FUCK THAT PERSON.

                                          I mean really it's not that hard. Does she want to have sex? Do you think she's in the right mental state to make that choice? Do you know enough about her to trust her with something as intimate and personal as sex? Unless all the answers are yes... You probably shouldn't fuck them.

                                          Jesus guys just make good choices. You don't have to let your dick make all your choices for you. Oh but wait, something something men have evolved to hunt for sex something something biotruth something something women are conditioned to deny...

                                          Yea it's probably for the best these guys don't breed

                                          [–]eyes_on_the_sky 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                          That actually makes me feel a bit better. If a lot of the crazies are just posting on several different subs, there are less of them to worry about.

                                          [–]dsklerm 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                                          Oh it's a super small sample size. Reddit is considered one of (if not the) largest hubs of the MRA community, as well as the Red Pill. Yet MRA just cracked 90k subscribers (and lets be real, how many of those are alts/1 time posters/etc). Also it should be noted that the MRA/Redpill crossover is 7%, while the Blue Pill/Red Pill cross over is 6% (Blue Pill is a parody/mockery subreddit). There aren't many out there thankfully.

                                          I think the biggest reassurance is real life anecdotal evidence. I am fairly social, lots of friends... tough guys, badass chicks, professionals and artists. I know dozens of self identified feminists, but I've never even met an MRA member or Red Piller. I doubt we run in the same circles, but still... it's a little comforting.

                                          [–]double-happiness 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                                          They both have this weird toxic and adversarial understanding of sex that infects all of their interactions with women.

                                          Perhaps some of them were sexually abused or raped.

                                          load more comments (2 返事)

                                            load more comments (3 返事)

                                              [–]phreaklegion 22 ポイント23 ポイント

                                              Sorry ladies, fedora hunting is going to be much more difficult next semester.

                                              [–]mincerray 22 ポイント23 ポイント

                                              ugh, a SOCIOLOGY PROFESSOR!!!!

                                              [–]HardEctoCooler 32 ポイント33 ポイント

                                              Really? I'm not going to say that all of the "liberal arts" practitioners/professors put out BS and bunk ideology, but most of the BS and bunk ideology is espoused most fervently by "liberal arts" types. You know exactly what that was about.

                                              Sociology is not liberal arts. Your ignorance and unfounded arguments baffle me. Good day.

                                              The last post got massively down-voted. So uh... just willful ignorance? Guess MRAs don't like Liberal Arts OR Social Sciences. Which is odd, cause you'd think they'd be interested in people who researched things like gender dynamics in western society.

                                              [–]tomorrowistomato 10 ポイント11 ポイント

                                              Everyone knows the only good degree is a STEM degree. Duh.

                                              [–]mincerray 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                                              also, i'm fairly sure that many MRA talking heads have sociology degrees.

                                              [–]beanfiddler 15 ポイント16 ポイント

                                              I think Farrell has a PhD in Political Science. That's the only MRA talking head I can think of with academic backgrounds.

                                              load more comments (15 返事)

                                                [–]double-happiness 6 ポイント7 ポイント

                                                I have a degree in sociology and I'm a former social science teacher and lecturer, but I can actually understand the disdain. A fair proportion of the more theoretical social research is quite opaque and in some cases downright condescending. Even full-time sociologists recognise that the subject has an image problem and can suffer from being divorced from the population it seeks to study and inform.

                                                [–]HardEctoCooler 16 ポイント17 ポイント

                                                A group that purports it's self to be about social issues shouldn't snub their nose at the people that research social sciences.

                                                [–]double-happiness 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                                                Absolutely, I agree. I just think the general population often feels more criticised than helped by social scientists.

                                                [–]mincerray 16 ポイント17 ポイント

                                                I'm sure that there are problems, but I found his remark funny because it reminded me of all of those grandma email forwards where the comically evil badguy is a liberal college professor.

                                                [–]iSanddbox 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                                                In the context of false rape allegations in college, though, it's pretty relevant.

                                                In three departments, more than half of faculty signed the statement. The department with the highest proportion of signatories was African and African-American Studies (AAAS), with 80%. Just over 72% of the Women's Studies faculty signed the statement, Cultural Anthropology 60%, Romance Studies 44.8%, Literature 41.7%, English 32.2%, Art & Art History 30.7%, and History 25%.

                                                No full-time law professors signed the document. Other departments that had no faculty members sign the document include Engineering, Biological Anthropology and Anatomy, Biology, Chemistry, Computer Science, Economics, Genetics, Germanic Languages/Literature, Psychology and Neuroscience, Religion, and Slavic and Eurasian Studies.

                                                [–]Junoh315 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                                On one hand I don't like the idea of telling a man not to ever be in private with a woman but on the other I do understand why both parties would be afraid. It seems like both sides have something to worry about by being alone on campus with the terrible way colleges treat rape accusations against both parties. This is why I think that the rape accusations should be handled by the police and not a college. Colleges do not have the necessary resources to handle criminal cases such as rape.

                                                [–]JoTheKhan 17 ポイント18 ポイント

                                                A better suggestion is, if she's so drunk that you have to help her back to your room. Then help her back to her room and immediately leave when you verify she is ok.

                                                Especially if you met her that night. Atleast thats my humble opinion.

                                                [–]beener 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                                                Not to be argumentative, but the consent posters at my school say that any amount of alcohol means no consent.

                                                [–]conan93 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                                                What do they say about consent and alcohol if both are drunk?

                                                [–]beener 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                                Doesn't mention that.

                                                [–]Teraperf 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                                They never do.

                                                load more comments (36 返事)

                                                  [–]Dirtybrd 27 ポイント28 ポイント

                                                  It must be tough going through life thinking every woman in the world wants to sperm jack you or claim you raped them.

                                                  [–]buildingbridges 37 ポイント38 ポイント

                                                  Because women can't change their mind about having sex and the world is awash is false rape reports? Most days it feels like /r/mensrights is a spinoff of /r/conspiracy.

                                                  [–]WatchEachOtherSleep 26 ポイント27 ポイント

                                                  There are a lot of people pointing that out in the thread, happily enough. A lot of them criticise the OP's post while praising the top comment.

                                                  [–]buildingbridges 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                                  Maybe the sub is trying to tone down the angry rhetoric, is it bad that I want to see a backlash about tone policing because that whole conversation would be buttery and delicious?

                                                  [–]iSanddbox 12 ポイント13 ポイント

                                                  Because women can't change their mind about having sex

                                                  Wait, are you saying that woman can change their mind after having sex, or not?

                                                  In the context of the linked thread, this is a woman who clearly had consensual sex and then later "decided" that it was rape.

                                                  [–]greatGoD67 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                                                  "was convinced" which in a way almost makes it worse.

                                                  load more comments (2 返事)

                                                    [–]Cuddle_Apocalypse 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                                                    Isn't there a pretty decent overlap of MR and /r/conspiracy? Or was that TRP and /r/conspiracy?

                                                    [–]MrNecktie 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                                                    All three, really

                                                    load more comments (1 返事)

                                                      [–]HardEctoCooler 7 ポイント8 ポイント

                                                      There's a post in the full thread that likens rape to insurance fraud.

                                                      [–]buildingbridges 12 ポイント13 ポイント

                                                      They act like there is money in making false rape claims.

                                                      [–]royboh 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                                      I can think of one famous example...

                                                      [–]pizza_rolls 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                                                      Wait so if a woman consents to sex and changes her mind after it is rape now?

                                                      [–]ghostchamber 12 ポイント13 ポイント

                                                      I guarantee you that a smart guy is NOT the type of guy who gets the most lays in college.

                                                      Sounds like someone that thinks he is smart is butthurt because he can't get laid.

                                                      [–]the_bae 12 ポイント13 ポイント

                                                      MRAs staying away from women? fine by me

                                                      [–]DT1559 6 ポイント7 ポイント

                                                      Honestly, using Occidental to complain about the way college rape is handled is just cheating.

                                                      [–]royboh 14 ポイント15 ポイント

                                                      http://www.avoiceformalestudents.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/John-Doe-Full-Lawsuit-against-Occidental-Part-1.pdf

                                                      Respondent notified Petitioner that Jane Doe engaged in conduct and made statements that show she consented to intercourse and that there was no force, no threat of force, nor coercion involved, Respondent would hold petitioner responsible for Sexual Assault and Non-Consensual Contact.

                                                      ...

                                                      I'm starting to think their paranoia isn't completely unfounded...

                                                      [–]ShameHider 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                                                      As of my posting, 49 minutes old with 29 comments. Note to self for future, MRA drama very popular.

                                                      [–]SapSuck 18 ポイント19 ポイント

                                                      Generally this kind of drama gets a lot of replies, since the argument often continues in the comments. Also, the whole MRA v feminism thing has really been boiling over lately.

                                                      [–]HardEctoCooler 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                                      It also gets MRA defenders coming into the sub, which means all of the fun of popcorn pissing, without breaking any of the rules.

                                                      [–]KamensPoltergeist 8 ポイント9 ポイント

                                                      And on hearing this from MRAs, college women all over breathe a collective sigh of relief.

                                                      [–]Simpleton216 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                                      Because who needs friends?

                                                      [–]MittRomneysCampaign 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                                                      sorry guys I know this is controversial but I'm going to have sex

                                                      [–]BaadKitteh 6 ポイント7 ポイント

                                                      I suppose a simple "Don't rape, and that includes if she is too drunk to legally consent" is too much? I mean really.

                                                      [–]Non_Social 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                                                      I subscribe to /r/mensrights, but I don't feel they always focus on the actual issues. Rather, it becomes an echo chamber for bitter voices who resent women. There is good discussion in there, but there's also good discussion on 4/chan too. Too many times the focus is moved off of what's important, to just blaming others.

                                                      [–]Hindu_Wardrobe 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                                      MRAs not ever coming anywhere near me?

                                                      I'm really fucking okay with that.

                                                      [–]thisbaseball17 9 ポイント10 ポイント

                                                      Wow, Subredditdrama really has a hate-boner for Mens Rights

                                                      Edit: Hard truths are offensive. Here's another one. This isn't actually drama, it's just a top post from a subreddit that SRD tends to target (inb4 shilling calendar), and the comments aren't about the drama. They're just circlejerking about how bad Mens Rights is. I'm not even an 'MRA' but goddam people ...

                                                      [–]turgid_wang 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                                                      Just like /r/tumblrinaction has a real boner for Men's Rights?

                                                      Bias is ok folks, but only if it fits my worldview.

                                                      [–]Cuddle_Apocalypse 19 ポイント20 ポイント

                                                      To be fair, they make it really easy.

                                                      [–]thisbaseball17 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                                                      True, but I liked when SRDrama was about ... Drama

                                                      [–]Cuddle_Apocalypse 12 ポイント13 ポイント

                                                      It's not like the front page is nothing but shit from MR, you know. Or even mostly. Or even like...more than this post, actually.

                                                      [–]Tredoka 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                                      The best way is to just not view MRA/SRS threads. There are plenty of non MRA/SRS threads, you're just choosing to come in here and make yourself mad and post. MRA threads attract SRSers, SRS threads attract MRAs, it's how it goes

                                                      [–]comradewilson 9 ポイント10 ポイント

                                                      Yea dude people just sitting around in SRD thinking about who they're gonna fuck with their hate boner today.

                                                      [–]thisbaseball17 9 ポイント10 ポイント

                                                      No, but they definitely target certain subreddits with an agenda in mind instead of finding actual drama.

                                                      [–]HashTag-YoloSwag 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                                                      There isn't much of a "crazy feminist" presence on reddit. There is some, but it seems to be pretty isolated. Most of the gender drama on this website seems to be generated by MRAs.

                                                      posts with an obvious feminist slant get downvoted to oblivion with only a few comments. Posts with an obvious MRA slant get a bunch of MRAs working themselves in to a froth over it in the comments. It's not our fault that they're a bunch of drama queens.

                                                      Sure there are feminist subreddits, but I usually don't really see them outside of those subreddits evangelizing their views in the same way that MRAs do.

                                                      [–]00191 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                                                      http://i4.minus.com/i3qYP4k1u1tIj.png

                                                      You can thank the SRD mods for letting all of their friends in this screenshot brigade this subreddit every day. SRS took this sub over this time last year and it's been destroyed by them.

                                                      [–]Tredoka 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                                                      those SRS tags seem pretty broken

                                                      wait TPB is SRS now? You guys are just refining the list down further and further until the only people who aren't SRSers are SRSsuckers and MRAs?

                                                      [–]shakypears 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                                      Seems so.

                                                      [–]shakypears 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                                      Wait a minute. You tag transgender folks with the same tag you do for SRSers and other folks you don't like? What's up with that?

                                                      Oh, by the way, yes, this is my dramasphere account. My only dramasphere account, if your tag is implying what I think it's implying. I really do actually most of my time on reddit on SRD and conspiratard. I like it here.

                                                      [–]Enleat 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                                      You are aware that the biggest overlap with /r/SRD is /r/TiA?

                                                      It's not /r/SRD's fault if MRA's keep acting like fucking idiots and causing drama....

                                                      No, must be an SRS conspiracy, only logical explanation.

                                                      [–]thisbaseball17 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                                      The 'gender wars' need their own meta Subreddit. Too many people use SRD to push their gender-agendas instead of pointing out drama.

                                                      [–]Dharmasatya 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                                                      Yeah, the concept of not being a rape-y douchebag is just SO oppressive to the average person. I mean, how else are you gonna get some, amirite? Threads like this just prove that normal sexuality is totes under attack. Fucking people who might not be able to give informed consent is just BIOTRUTHS, man.

                                                      /s

                                                      [–]iSanddbox 11 ポイント12 ポイント

                                                      Did you read the linked comment? This is a case of clearly consensual sex that is being treated as rape. It really is an issue of normal sexuality being under attack.

                                                      [–]Tredoka 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                                      I think people are reacting to the comment made by the poster about fearing all women and not the actual piece of news the thread is discussing overall.

                                                      [–]ArstanWhitebeard -1 ポイント0 ポイント

                                                      Damn.

                                                      And you left out /u/boom_shoes, who would fall under "circlebroke" as well as /u/rokkaku_police, who would fall under "SRS."

                                                      load more comments (1 返事)

                                                        [–]Tredoka 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                                                        I haven't been able to treat MRA's as reasonable people with reasonable concerns since they spammed all those false rape allegations to that college. Since then I've kinda stopped having any sympathy. They focus on the issues that effect us the least, such as financial abortion (aka how can I be a total douchebag to my future child?) or false rape accusations (which are 3% or 8% of all rapes according to two studies Iv'e seen).

                                                        load more comments (15 返事)

                                                          [–]Dr_Worm88 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                                          fits the profile of other rapists

                                                          Do you know whats the problem with criminal profiling is that it really hasnt been proven to be scientifically valid.

                                                          Sorry its one of my pet peeves major psychotic moments, like the CSI effect and such.

                                                          [–]caesarfecit 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                                                          Before people freak out understand this.

                                                          Universities under the law, have to treat all rape cases as serious, conduct their own investigations, and use the lowest standard of evidence (preponderance of the evidence).

                                                          In 2011, the United States Department of Education sent a letter, known as the “Dear Colleague” letter, to the presidents of all colleges and universities in the United States stating that Title IX requires schools to investigate and adjudicate cases of sexual assault on campus.[33]The letter also states that schools must adjudicate these cases using a “preponderance of the evidence” standard, meaning that the accused will be responsible if it is determined that there is at least a 50.1% chance that the assault occurred. The letter expressly forbid the use of the stricter “clear and convincing evidence” standard used at some schools previously.

                                                          Which means, as a man, if you get accused of rape, your university career is over.

                                                          Even if the cops don't press charges, even if it's just a he said, she said, even if there's no physical evidence. What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty" and "beyond a reasonable doubt"? And who in their right mind thinks universities are qualified to try criminal offenses? Note also:

                                                          The Obama administration’s approach toward sexual assault on campus has been widely criticized for not taking into account the issue of false allegations and wrongful convictions. Critics claim that the “preponderance of the evidence” standard is not appropriate for a violent crime and leads to students being wrongly expelled for crimes that have not been clearly proven. Campus tribunals have also been criticized for lacking the necessary experience in criminal justice and for failing to provide many of the due process protection that the United States Constitution guarantees in criminal trials, such as the right to be represented by an attorney and the right to cross-examine witnesses. The American Association of University Professors and the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education have publicly opposed the “Dear Colleague” letter. In early 2014, RAINN, the nation’s largest non-profit dedicated to preventing rape, wrote an open letter to the White House calling for campus tribunals to be de-emphasized in favor of the criminal justice system. According to RAINN, “The crime of rape does not fit the capabilities of such boards. They often offer the worst of both worlds: they lack protections for the accused while often tormenting victims.”

                                                          So while you certainly complain about /men's rights hysterical and paranoid tone, they're right to be mad about the treatment of rape on colleges. The solution advocated by the "rape culture" crowd and cynically appropriated by Obama and the Democrats is to set up unconstitutional kangaroo courts that are leaving colleges open to justified lawsuits from the boys they screw over.

                                                          Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campus_rape#Prevention_efforts_by_the_Obama_administration

                                                          [–]greedo_posted_first 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                                                          Without agreeing with either of you, this back-and-forth was very informative on both sides.

                                                          [–]mincerray 11 ポイント12 ポイント

                                                          preponderence of the evidence standard is completely fine. that's the same standard used in wrongful death cases, and almost every other civil cases including defamation, fraud, negligence, and breach of contract. the fact that the "clear and convincing" standard was previously used is somewhat of an aberration.

                                                          a simple accusation doesn't meet this standard. if it did, then every single civil action could be decided simply on the four corners of the complaint.

                                                          "innocent until proven guilty" and "beyond a reasonable doubt" are the standards for the state taking a person and putting them in jail. that's it. decisions to keep someone in university isn't the same thing as a criminal offense. you can be fined $100,000,000 for very heinous, reputation damaging behavior under the preponderance standard in federal court, or be kicked out of university.

                                                          if the DA charge these people, they would be entitled to their full constitutional protections as criminal defendants.

                                                          so yeah, i think you're being paranoid and hysterical.

                                                          [–]caesarfecit 3 ポイント4 ポイント

                                                          Sexual assault is a criminal cause of action, not a civil one.

                                                          Even civil cases where the matter at hand is an alleged sexual assault, the tort involved is something else like "intentional infliction of emotional distress".

                                                          Using a balance of probabilities to decide a matter involving a criminal act is inappropriate. Either its rape, and it should be pursued and settled by the criminal justice system or its not.

                                                          To wit, using preponderance of the evidence to decide a matter of sexual assault means the only way for a man to exonerate himself from the accusation would be to not be alone with a woman. Otherwise, a he-said, she-said situation gets decided on incredibly flimsy evidence, even subjective impressions of the adjudicating parties, who are most certainly not judges.

                                                          And also, even if we set the issue of standards of proof to one side, there is still the questions of standing/competency of a university to adjudicate these investigations, and with it, the question of ensuring due process.

                                                          Edit: I also believe preponderance of the evidence is only appropriate as a preliminary standard, such as in grand jury indictments or evidentiary/preliminary hearings.

                                                          [–]mincerray 6 ポイント7 ポイント

                                                          sexual assault is a criminal cause of action if it's being prosecuted by the state and can lead to penal punishment. it can also be a civil one. a sexual assault victim can sue the person who sexually assaulted them for damages, in civil court, under the preponderance of the evidence standard. that's because sexual assault is a battery.

                                                          you're right. they can probably successfully sue a person for intentional infliction of emotional distress. this is also under the preponderence of the evidence standard.

                                                          and you're right. it would be inappropriate to use this standard to decide a criminal matter. except we aren't talking about a criminal matter here. it's simply not being adjudicated as a crime.

                                                          he-said / she-said would be just as effective as it would be in ANY other civil matter. flimsy evidence would be just as effective as it would be in ANY other civil matter. like, if i sued you for defamation, and my evidence was simply that i said that you defamed me, i would lose. if i sued you for negligence, with no evidence except my word that you hurt me because you were careless, i would lose.

                                                          you're acting like "preponderance of the evidence" is this meaningless, kafkaesque thing when it's actually something that's been used successfully, for decades, to decide many important issues.

                                                          and no, there is no issue of standing. and there's no due process issue unless it's a public university...in which case, the necessary due process wouldn't be the same as that of a criminal action BECAUSE IT'S NOT BEING ADJUDICATED AS A CRIME. being kicked out of a school because of a disciplinary matter and being sent to jail by the government are substantially different!

                                                          [–]caesarfecit 5 ポイント6 ポイント

                                                          Now we're getting into a critique of the civil law system.

                                                          Part of the problem with rape cases is this:

                                                          All the plantiff/prosecution needs to prove is

                                                          a) sexual intercourse occurred

                                                          b) it was nonconsensual

                                                          So if the victim denies giving consent, how can the accused possibly exonerate himself, without attacking the credibility of the accuser, which is not kosher under rape shield laws.

                                                          This is why a lot of feminists call for the "preponderance of the evidence" standard. It means that, with the rape shield laws, a man has to affirmatively prove a sexual action was consensual (something easier said than done) or he's fucked, at least civilly.

                                                          And this still doesn't address the issue of competency. Part of the reason why preponderance of the evidence hasn't totally gone pear shaped is because civil cases are overseen by a trained legal professional (a judge). Who said universities were qualified to try these cases? How is due process ensured?

                                                          [–]mincerray 4 ポイント5 ポイント

                                                          you can definitely attack an accuser's credibility. you can attack for bias, and you can impeach if it seems like the accuser is lying. none of these things are prevented by rape shield laws. they vary, but rape shield laws prohibit the defendant from bringing in information concerning every single person the accused has had sex with in order to paint them as promiscuous.

                                                          look at the federal rape shield law F.R.E. 412:

                                                          In a civil case, the court may admit evidence offered to prove a victim’s sexual behavior or sexual predisposition if its probative value substantially outweighs the danger of harm to any victim and of unfair prejudice to any party. The court may admit evidence of a victim’s reputation only if the victim has placed it in controversy.

                                                          so here's what i would do if i were representing someone who was falsely accused. i would investigate. i would find things to attack the accuser's credibility. i would look into the accuser's record, and find evidence of other crimes the accuser has committed, or other times when the accuser has lied (be it cheating on a test, or committing fraud). i would bring this information to the tribunal's attention. i would get character witnesses that would paint the accuser as a liar. i would submit evidence that the accused has had sexual relations with the accuser before. i would submit evidence that would give the accuser a motive to lie. i would evidence that the accuser was flirting with the accused.

                                                          all of this evidence would be proper in a court of law in a so called he said / she said situation.

                                                          a man has to affirmatively prove a sexual action was consensual

                                                          no, it's the plaintiff who has the burden of proving the case. and please don't say "man" because many men are raped and this sort of shit you're pulling hurts them from coming forward.

                                                          i would have to look into the particular disciplinary practices of the particular university, but the supreme court has upheld liberty/property deprivations that were adjudicated by those without legal training. but that wouldn't even be the sole procedural protection that the accused has.

                                                          [–]caesarfecit 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                                                          You have waay too much faith in the proper interpretation of the rape shield laws.

                                                          In 1999 in the case of People v. Jovanovic, the New York Court of Appeals ruled that a lower court had improperly ruled as inadmissible e-mail in which the plaintiff/witness in a rape case expressed her consent to, and later approval of, the encounter. The lower court ruled these e-mails inadmissible on the basis of rape shield laws; however, the Court of Appeals ruled that the previous court had misapplied those laws.

                                                          That is direct exculpatory evidence being kicked out of court because of the rape shield laws.

                                                          Furthermore, this

                                                          In a civil case, the court may admit evidence offered to prove a victim’s sexual behavior or sexual predisposition if its probative value substantially outweighs the danger of harm to any victim and of unfair prejudice to any party.

                                                          Is so subjective its practically begging to be abused by any lawyer worth their salt. It would definitely result in this:

                                                          i would submit evidence that the accused has had sexual relations with the accuser before

                                                          Being ruled as inadmissible or prejudicial.

                                                          Futhermore, what about feminists going on and on about victim blaming. And yet, as you've implictly agreed, the only way for a man to clear his name is to attack the credibility of his accuser under current construction of the law. And the means for him to engage in his only legal defense would be made thinner and thinner if feminists had their way.

                                                          [–]mincerray 2 ポイント3 ポイント

                                                          great case find! check out People v. Hauver, 129 A.D2d 889, where the court admitted the accuser's statement that she was "out to get laid" that night. or People v. Harris, 132 A.D.2d 940, where the court admitted evidence concerning other accusations made by the defendant.

                                                          in NY, this evidence can come in when it:

                                                          "1. proves or tends to prove specific instances of the victim's prior sexual conduct with the accused; or

                                                          "2. proves or tends to prove that the victim has been convicted of [prostitution] within three years prior to the sex offense which is the subject of the prosecution; or

                                                          "3. rebuts evidence introduced by the people of the victim's failure to engage in sexual intercourse, deviate sexual intercourse or sexual contact during a given period of time; or

                                                          "4. rebuts evidence introduced by the people which proves or tends to prove that the accused is the cause of pregnancy or disease of the victim, or the source of semen found in the victim; or

                                                          "5. is determined by the court after an offer of proof by the accused outside the hearing of the jury, or such hearing as the court may require, and a statement by the court of its findings of fact essential to its determination, to be relevant and admissible in the interests of justice".

                                                          and it's ridiculous to call that balancing standard as being "so subjective." evidentiary tests where courts balance the probabativeness of evidence against its prejudicial effect are commonplace in evidence law.

                                                          Futhermore, what about feminists going on and on about victim blaming.

                                                          what are you talking about? i'm simply saying that the due process rules are more than adequate, and that preponderence of the evidence is a fair standard. i'm a feminist and i don't think the standards should be lower. the current standards work is most every other civil action, yet you're acting like they're something absurd that was recently invented.

                                                          [–]ohyouknowhangingout 1 ポイント2 ポイント

                                                          All I hear:

                                                          No guys. I don't think you understand. I never got laid in college (tho I desperately wanted to) because if I had sex then some female would tell everyone I'm a rapist and my life would be over. It certainly wasn't because I was socially awkward, had a terrible personality, and never left my dorm. No. I'm not bitter. Why do you ask?

                                                          [–]redditbots 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                                                          SnapShot

                                                          (mirror | open source | create your own snapshots)

                                                          [–]theherps 0 ポイント1 ポイント

                                                          Well, that does make having allegations levelled against you pretty unlikely.

                                                          load more comments (45 返事)