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If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

I was taking issues with the implications of downvoting personal stuff, not being against all downvoting. I think you're being a bully, but if you're not, sorry for misinterpreting your motives. If you are, I would be fine with not continuing any conversation with you, since you're the one who responded to my post with a nasty comment in the first place. I have been responding to defend against your being accusatory.

I already apologized for mistakingly assuming you downvoted my comment that had personal stuff, and I meant it, and am assuming you were being honest about that. Sorry again for the offense caused. Please stop misrepresenting and twisting my actions to make them seem as bad as possible when they were not meant to be. I am sorry again about my own false accusation of you. Sorry.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Is this a big deal or are you just trying to pick at things you think are wrong with my actions? Like posting in multiple subs, or double commenting, is that a huge violation of something? The comment to you was the only one where I took out a chunk of it. In my most recent comment to you I was trying to be conciliatory but since it seems like you have no interest in honest efforts I make to be conciliatory, I would be ok with your not reading my replies anymore. Sorry for making you angry.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Thanks. Yes, that makes sense. Thanks for explaining. It helps to hear from the people who have actually tried to explain what was going on.

I think my being new here (to SRS but also not regular reddit user) is why I'm not that familiar with the drive-by asshole issue. Well, now it sounds like it's really horrible. Thanks again for your explanation.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Thanks for your responses. I was afraid this was going to get worse, but I appreciate your responding. I'm sorry to have wrongly assumed you were downvoting my comments. I also appreciate your being fair in your responses in the original SRSd post I made that got removed.

I guess my issue wasn't necessarily that I was angry about the post removal, as much as that this is an important issue to me overall, post removal or not (the post removal, however, did seem similar to past issues I've had, and that didn't help). That's why I sought other places to try to find a way to discuss it. Sorry for spamming. I did delete a couple of the other posts I made whether or not that helps, after I found this sub (part of why I kept posting was because I kept discovering new subs that I thought were more appropriate for bringing up the issue. I'm new here, wasn't aware of circlejerk etc. until I found them which was when I posted in them, and I was trying to find a place right for bringing up the issue, not trying to spam as many people as possible).

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Yeah. I totally understand and I think that's fair to allow people's anger.

Thanks for your reply.

I already did post on /r/socialjustice101 and r/SRSdiscussion, but my posts were removed from /r/SRSdiscussion and that's why I ended up coming here. (I did message the mods there but didn't hear from them which is why I assumed they just didn't want to deal with me anymore, but I'm not sure if that was what was up.)

Thanks for the suggestions.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

By the way, I would probably phrase myself better if I knew everyone would understand and believe what I said. I think I have even explained that in different ways multiple times. Just for the record. You can do whatever you want but in this particular case, you and other people who are taking your stance are a big part of why I'm not being clearer. Just fyi.

EDIT 2: removed edit 1.

Can people *involved* in social justice have critical discussions about social justice anywhere on the internet? by [deleted]in circlebrokediscussion

[–]sjfighter 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Sorry, I'm still not sure I understand. You mean, wouldn't it help the cause of anti-SJ people to embrace SJ concept? This is getting way too complicated, ha. What is their cause, anyway, aside from hating SJ?

EDIT: I'm not really sure where you're coming from. You're not really an SJ person it seems.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I'm sort of not willing to get into detail, at least not publicly, esp given the last comment I got from a mod (EDIT: not of SRSmeta) (which makes me want to crawl up into a shell).

I'm definitely not a proponent of casting blanket suspicions onto all members of a group when most groups are overwhelmingly comprised of non-criminals.

I also do not do that. In my experience most people in any racial or ethnic group are fine as people. Every racial or ethnic group also has malicious people.

EDIT: Shortened to include less detail.

To say the vast majority of most groups are non-criminals is different from saying there aren't differences in rates of violence.

I'm also not saying people can't treat others badly while skirting the criminal justice system, as I think that can happen as well. However, for example, if you only are considering violent crimes, there are differences in rates.

Also, I still think it's interesting that everyone thinks I'm fixated with differences between racial groups. That really isn't even my main point, even if differences in rates of committing violence crimes may differ between racial groups.

I'm really not interested in the mods who hate me having more information about me since they're probably going to end up not believing anything I say anyway and end up turning it against me, and since I'm not really fully recovered from that shit, I'm sorry I can't get into more details.

I never tried to justify misconceptions towards minority groups. Did you read that in any part of what I wrote?

Can people *involved* in social justice have critical discussions about social justice anywhere on the internet? by [deleted]in circlebrokediscussion

[–]sjfighter 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Thanks (?). What does it mean to concern troll an anti-SJ space? Pretend you're anti-SJ? (?) Sorry for misunderstanding at first.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

I'm sorry, I didn't realize posting to multiple subs was a problem. I did not post again to SRSdiscussion after my last post got removed.

You're welcome to and have the right to think what you want and, since someone else also mentioned it, I'll take note of the problematic username issue.

Anyway, everything you're saying is still treating me like a troll, so I do not really think there's much else for me to say in the way of responses.

Other people can also think what they want, I guess. I just think it's too bad if a person in a position of power will not even consider the possibility of an alternate explanation, though I also understand there were and are many reasons why people assumed I was trolling. I guess that's all.

EDIT: I did not realize I didn't have "permission" to post again to SRSdiscussion just because one of my posts was removed. I didn't realize one removal meant not being allowed to post again, but does it? If so, I'll remember that in the future, and sorry, but I didn't know that.

I did, I guess I now know mistakenly, interpret the lack of response from the mods to mean they weren't interested in responding to me. That is why I wanted to ask about it to other people.

I'm not really sure why posting to multiple subs is a problem if I'm not trolling. If you're still assuming I am trolling, ok, I guess trolling multiple subs can be problematic. But, if I know that was not my intention, not really sure how to keep responding to that, so I'll just leave it to that.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Eh, sorry if I'm sounding like an asshole. Basically, I agree with what you wrote. I just hope the other side can be recognized as well. (Getting argumentative may be one of my defense mechanisms, and I'm not trying to be snarky when writing that, even if I think it can be another example of how other people can be dealing with their own shit without others always knowing it, right?) (But I can, really, try to be less argumentative if it's making me seem like an asshole.)

EDIT: I think you're right, though, I also can't know what other people are going through. Ok, thanks again for being willing to give me the benefit of the doubt and for being willing to engage with me in good faith.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

(As a side note regarding 'arguing in good faith', vagueness can be a red flag of bad faith, which may explain the hostility you're being met with. It's not always like that, context matters, but we are especially sensitive to discussions about situations/ideas/contexts we don't have reasonable information about.)

I can definitely see how that can be the case. I think the interesting thing is, when you're working with victims of trauma, you have to accept that people often have very valid points but just can't talk about them.

I can understand your point. I also think there might need to be a bit more understanding of what trauma entails.

If people can't be sure about whether I'm arguing in good faith, fine. But there were people here who were absolutely convinced I was not arguing in good faith. That level of certainty when you're wrong is just disturbing, I think.

Can we agree it might at least (at least to allow the possibility in some circumstances, even if there are many circumstances where it is clearer what people's intentions are) be helpful for at least some people to recognize there can sometimes be more uncertainty than they're thinking?

The arguer being clearer can help, I'm sure. However, I'm not going to keep arguing when faced with that extreme a level of doubt. I already think I probably argue more than most people want to put effort into. (I'm also willing to argue/converse with people who aren't familiar with social justice 101 but are open enough. With any group, if they aren't open enough, people are going to eventually give up. (I think that's the same reason why SRS chooses not to engage with most people who present differing viewpoints.) I'm only still arguing because I still feel a level of investment in the communities and issues.)

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Ok. Thanks for explaining. That makes sense. Yeah, I guess I could have come up with a more intelligent-sounding username, ha.

As for the tiptoeing around my exact experiences, whether or not my explaining it makes any difference (given that I was more asking for other people's opinions about what people were thinking about me) - this is not the first place in social justice communities where I have felt silenced, and when you've gotten traumatized in the past in similar circumstances, at least I tend to get a lot more guarded when in another similar circumstance. That's probably the best I can explain it, whether anyone believes me or not. (I did explain elsewhere I left social justice communities for about a year, and I'm only now trying to reapproach the issue. Anyway.)

frustration that this is one of the few places on Reddit who doesn't parade around differential crime rates as reflective of minorities' character

Yeah, no. Not what I'm trying to say at all. At all.

I guess part of the issue might be that I didn't feel the need to express how I agree with what I think are the "basic issues" in social justice, because I was assuming being in an environment where everyone agrees, so why explicitly explain what I agree with. It's almost like if I explained it, it would make me seem more like a newbie.

But yeah. I'm not advocating for using crime rates to reinforce the idea that people of certain races are better or worse than people of other races. No. I mean, I'm not really sure what else I can say about that.

I can understand how that is an argument that is used against equality.

EDIT: Shortened to include less detail.

There are clear causes within the communities I've been a part of, including social justice-oriented communities, that helped make me who I was, including ignorantly naive of certain realities and ending up getting traumatized. That wasn't only me.

EDIT: Maybe I'm among a minority of people who grew up not knowing anything about danger. But I have also read about other victims of violence who grew up being taught to treat everyone with equal amounts of respect and not being taught sufficiently to project themselves.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント

To be a bit more clear about the last bullet point:

If you know of social justice communities that are (more) open to internal criticism, I would love to have any suggestions.

I'm also interested in finding a community where I can bring up observations or ideas about the issues (not even just criticizing the community, which is more meta) that I think are valid ideas but that, at least in SRS, get interpreted to be opposing what most people think, even though I'm not opposing what most people think - those are the types of things I've felt silenced about. I guess I would like to be able to talk about (not sure how to put this) observations and experiences I've had, that I think would be good to incorporate into thinking about social justice, that I have not heard really discussed in social justice circles, whether or not they directly align with the main framework of thinking about systems of oppression. Eh not sure if I'm being clear about that.

Or, not sure if that means I need to leave social justice communities, but I would hope not, which is why I'm posting here.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Thanks. Sorry for not being clear, and thanks for asking me to clarify instead of making wrong assumptions about what I meant. I guess I might not always be great at expressing what I mean, and I'm sure that has been happening here.

  • The only community I'm currently experiencing difficulty bringing up stuff with is the SRS community. However, my concern about feeling silenced much precedes my posting here (I only started posting here a couple of days ago). That's because I have felt this silencing in the other social justice communities I've been part of as well. (But I have not been involved with them recently, largely because I felt I needed to take a break because of problems like this. But now I'm wondering if I can try to re-approach the issue.) Yes, if people have suggestions about how to approach bringing up what I think of as internal criticism to any social justice community, whether SRS or not, I'm open to such suggestions.

  • The nature of my concern. I think it stems from past experiences of having felt silenced if I want to discuss certain things and gaslighted. Is that interpersonal? Maybe it's more ideological. Or political. I have disagreements with what I think are common approaches that people take within social justice communities when faced with ideas that seem not to align with what most people in these communities think.

  • Yes, I would be interested in finding a community that is receptive to healthy internal criticism. However, I'm also interested in asking about how common or uncommon being receptive to healthy internal criticism is within social justice communities in general. I have spent a lot of time in social justice communities, but it has been limited to a few communities, so I'm interested in what other people have to say about their experiences in social justice communities as well.

Thank you for clarifying about the concern trolls. That's helpful. I wonder if the issues I'm bringing up are irrelevant problems or non-problems? If you have any thoughts about that, I'm open.

Thanks again for your comment.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Thanks. I appreciate that.

I think I did see that thread but hadn't read it completely.

I also wonder what the OP asked about what are "basic concepts." I'll go read the whole thread.

EDIT: I'm glad the question the OP brought up was brought up, and obviously they did it in a way that was much more positive about SRSdiscussion than I sound (having only been here two days, and having my only two posts there removed). I guess they get to decide what the space is. However, if how SRS is reflects social justice communities at large, I would find that sad. If not, and if there are places where people are more open to the questions I'm asking, I'm glad (and would be interested in finding out where those spaces are).

P.S. I did think it was interesting that the same moderator who removed my first post in SRSdiscussion admits in the thread that you link to that they were too heavy handed about removing someone's comment, when someone who sounds more friendly to SRS asked about it.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

That's pretty patronizing. I'm not looking for a confidant and I never said I was. I'm looking to have a discussion. That's all.

You have no obligation to give me advice or respond at all if you have no idea what I'm talking about. In fact, if you do not know what I'm talking about, I'd prefer you not to keep responding to me.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント

What you summarized is not really what I meant. I have not really heard much of an answer for the question about why certain things aren't talked about, and not only not talked about, but virtually denied if people try to bring them up as observations. You're saying the things I think aren't talked about are talked about? And people here are willing to discuss them? In which case, why does it seem like nobody here wanted to discuss what I brought up? People's answers didn't tell me anything I wasn't familiar with. But I guess it at least seems like I do not know enough for people to think it'll be worth trying to talk with me?

The concerns I have are not only because of a personal problem I've had. Part of why it's a criticism or concern is because I think it's a real issue, not only about my feelings or lack of support or "betrayal" or whatever, as you put it. It's not only about me, and it's sort of offensive that you seem to think that's what I meant.

I think that if you accept it as perfectly fine as things are, you're basically saying it's perfectly fine to alienate people by gaslighting them if their experiences happen to not be part of systemic oppression. I'm not just talking about not supporting people. I'm talking about actively denying their experiences are real and telling them they're wrong about how they think about their experiences.

Maybe that's not what's supposed to happen, but it also doesn't seem like it's an uncommon thing within social justice circles. Denial of certain aspects of reality.

It sounds like you're saying conversations about what I asked about happen? In that case, how am I supposed to know at what level of knowledge I need to be at to be able to have these conversations with other people involved in social justice, if (as it sounds like you're saying) I'm not at the point where I currently know enough?

I think what you're saying is possible and I'm really asking that.

You're saying I just have to demonstrate that I know enough for people within SRS to be willing to have this type of conversation with me, but I seem not to be at that point yet, but otherwise this would be the right space for that type of conversation?

Can you be certain that I do not know enough? I mean, does not knowing how to use language well mean I do not understand these things sufficiently on a more unconscious level, i.e. more from lived experience and observations and thinking and reading and hearing about other people, than from learning to put the correct words to things?

Maybe I have difficulties expressing myself because I have a disability and that's why what I write sounds wrong?

Or if I really do not know enough, where can I go to either read or ask questions of people who will be willing to answer my questions at the level I seem to be at? If you have any suggestions for what else I should go learn or where to learn it from, I would be thankful for any suggestions. You're not obligated to give me any, but if you're willing to, thanks. I already did ask questions at /r/socialjustice101 but I didn't feel my original question was totally answered, and the second question was answered but with an answer that had gaps in its logic.

It sure looks like your criticisms are based in a flawed understanding of the point of all this.

What is the point of all this? Maybe I did start off with a flawed understanding of it all, and it would help me if I can have a better understanding of it to not have unrealistic expectations in the future. Thanks if you're willing to share any more thoughts.

Sorry if I sound combative. I certainly think it's possible what you're saying is true that I might not know enough. However, on the other hand, nobody has told me anything that I'm not familiar with in answers to questions I've asked, except in an answer to the second question I asked in /r/socialjustice101 (but I thought the answer, again, had gaps in its logic, which made me consider it less credible as a full answer). That makes me more inclined to think I am mostly familiar with what I should be familiar with to be asking these questions. However, if these conversations are happening within social justice circles, I am indeed not knowledgeable about where they're happening or how to approach having them.

Can people *involved* in social justice have critical discussions about social justice anywhere on the internet? by [deleted]in circlebrokediscussion

[–]sjfighter 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Thank you! Wow, this is the only response I've gotten thus far that acknowledges any issues within SJ communities from someone within those communities. (Now I sort of wish I hadn't already deleted this post.)

Thank you for the suggestions. The thing is, I've spent most of my life not in echo chambers. Whatever movement I've been a part of, I've always been critical of, and I always had friends who weren't part of it. I would just hope I would be able to bring any criticisms I have to people within the communities, because I feel like it's not like I can fix any issues I think are real completely alone. That is the reason I wish such conversations could happen within social justice communities. Have you seen such conversations happen within social justice communities?

I'm not familiar with Tumblr. I'll check it out. What is the hype about Tumblr?

I guess I tend to hope for a world where everyone can discuss things honestly and try to achieve a world where everyone has a nuanced view of reality. I can understand how internal criticism can become fodder for your enemies (or opposition, whatever :)) or sow doubt among people you're trying to win over. I would just hope that over time, being more transparent will help the cause of "good" better than anything else.

Not acknowledging problems also creates barriers between you and potential allies/supporter, and I think I agree with what you said about how calling out bad behavior within your movement is better than ignoring or embracing it (I think that's what you meant).

As for crazy people (I try not to use the word crazy like that because I have mental health issues myself but it's ok, I totally know what you mean :)), I think they're on every side. I think malicious people are probably on every side. However, I'm not sure we should stoop to self-censorship for fear of how malicious people will act, you know? Who knows, maybe it can help. But again, I would hope more for a world where transparency helps more than anything. At the very least, I would hope that people would try not to become like the malicious people who are causing the problems, which feels like is part of what's happening as I've been having these exchanges about SRS - the people just seem mean, which sort of turns me off from wanting to be around them or participate with them in whatever the cause might be.

Thank you again for the thoughtful comment.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

If anyone sounds like a troll, you sound like one. So, I'm not really interested in engaging with someone who seems not to be actually interested in conversing in good faith.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

So if I had traumatic experiences in social justice circles, and you're telling me it's because I'm not up on the 101, not because there were actually problems within these communities, that's not victim-blaming? Well, it feels like you're blaming me for the traumatic experiences I had, whether or not it's called victim-blaming.

Even if I do not know how to use the language of feminist theory perfectly, it doesn't mean I do not understand it from a very personal perspective. In fact, maybe it would make me be able to think about it more from the perspective of lived experience than what I've been taught in school or from books or through language.

Besides, whether I use the language perfectly, it doesn't change what you did, which is, as the other commenter said, invalidate my feelings. You're wrong in your actions, whether or not you know more about feminist theory than me. I think your actions speak much louder than your knowledge or your words. It was perhaps my fallacy to think people in social justice circles are overall better people than other people, but I think I've gotten proved wrong about that enough already.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Thanks. Honestly, I think that's true. I'm not sure which side of social justice you're on, and I'm assuming you're not trying to be mean when you're suggesting I have mental illness (I guess after a while it does become hard to evaluate people's intentions, even if what they're saying sounds like it's on your side), but I find what you're saying to be true. Thanks for calling it out.

EDIT: I upvoted you. I think RedErin probably downvoted you.

Can people *involved* in social justice have critical discussions about social justice anywhere on the internet? by [deleted]in circlebrokediscussion

[–]sjfighter 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Thanks. If you're being serious, I think this is the only serious answer to the question for referrals I've gotten.

If I have actual concerns, not troll concerns, as someone who is part of social justice communities, how or where can I bring them up? by sjfighterin SRSMeta

[–]sjfighter[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

It's possible. I did go there, too, but didn't find any answers that answered my questions. I'm open to the possibility that I am missing something, even if I think I'm up on the 101.

Do you think it's impossible that I've thought of something that most people in SJ communities haven't thought about much? And that I might have valid internal criticism? That the "so much trouble with SJ communities" I've had could at least partly be from them, not only me? It still seems like everyone thinks that is impossible, and as such, you didn't answer the question I was asking. It would also be victim-blaming if you're actually wrong, so maybe you should try not to do that. If I had valid internal criticisms, where could I go to talk about them or how should I approach bringing them up? Or is it essentially impossible? Or would I basically have to stick with people I know?

I'm sure people who aren't up on the 101 think they know the 101 all the time, so I'm sure I sound the same as them to a casual reader. It just seems unfair that people would immediately assume that without even trying to entertain the thought that I might have any valid criticism as someone who is familiar with the 101.

There have been other times when I've brought up questions to friends that they clearly hadn't really thought about. However, even if they could see what I was talking about, the conversation didn't go much further. The friends didn't think I was being an asshole for bringing up the questions, but it did seem like a wall.

I'm hesitant to repost in /r/socialjustice101 given the reaction I got in r/SRSdiscussion, but I guess I could try to. At this point I'm sort of ready to give up. I guess I have a lot of emotional defenses against people misunderstanding me en masse, and yes, misunderstanding has happened so I know it isn't only me, but it still isn't fun.

Can people *involved* in social justice have critical discussions about social justice anywhere on the internet? by [deleted]in circlebrokediscussion

[–]sjfighter 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Ok, is this an anti-SJ space? If so, sorry. I didn't know that. I only discovered SRS three days ago, and then circlebroke two days ago. Maybe I should have checked it out more to get a better idea of the leanings of people here. I did not want to be speaking to an anti-SJ space. I'm actually trying to reach an SJ audience. I'm not concern trolling on either count, but if this is the wrong space, sorry. (What would it even mean to be concern trolling an anti-SJ space?)

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