Monday, June 2, 2014
Sex / LGBTQITSLFA BREAKING: Woman Not Wanted at Gay Orgy! Must Credit HuffPo!
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 3:52 PM
Let's play let's pretend!
Two women are having lesbian sex in a hotel room. I stroll in—let's say their door was open—and I stand at the foot of the bed, quietly observing the action. The women realize I'm standing there and ask me to leave. I inform both women that, although I am an otherwise shy and reserved person, I am standing in their room at the foot of their bed watching them have sex because I am interested in both lesbian sex and the lesbian community. Very sincerely so. The women angrily insist that I leave. Their behavior makes me feel so uncomfortable and unwelcome that I do leave—but then I stand outside the door to their room loudly complaining to anyone who will listen about how rude these women were to me.
Was I the victim? Is this incident—the refusal of these women to let me watch them have sex—evidence that the lesbian community has a problem with exclusion? Is this incident damning evidence of lesbian misandry? Or am I a stupid, clueless, entitled jerk?
Would your answer change if we were talking about four lesbians having sex in a hotel room? Or eight? Or sixteen? Or more?
Eric Barry, writer, comedian, and creator of the "Full Disclosure" sex podcast, has written the dumbest thing I've ever read about sex at Huffington Post—and that's saying something. (I mean, there's some absolutely mindblowing competition for that honor.) I've met Barry, he's written some great stuff in the past, and I've been a guest on his podcast. But Barry attended the International Mr. Leather Contest in Chicago over Memorial Day Weekend and wasn't happy with what he thought he saw:
[The] amount of women I encountered at the event could more or less be counted on two hands, as compared to the thousands of men I saw. But the more time that I spent at the event, the more I had to question whether or not the ratio of men to women I saw was truly representative of those within the leather community, or whether or not there was some sort of institutionalized segregation of women.
You know why the ratio of men to women at IML wasn't representative of the leather community? Because IML is a gay leather/fetish event. Complaining that gay men made up the majority of attendees at your first IML—and insisting that this is evidence of the exclusionary, misogynist rot at the heart of the leather/fetish community—is like going to the Dinah Shore Weekend in Palm Springs and complaining about how few gay men you saw there. Or going to Bear Week in Provincetown and complaining that hairless twinks must have been kept away by the forces of "institutionalized segregation."
IML is a gay leather/fetish contest and convention. All are welcome to attend. Anyone can stroll into the host hotel (although security guards give a heads up to people who 1. look like they might not be kinksters and 2. might be distressed by what they're going to see in the lobby), anyone can go shopping in the Leather Market (where else can you get dolphin-dong dildos?), or buy a ticket and attend the open-to-all IML parties at various nightclubs (they're basically circuit parties and most IML attendees skip them and party at the hotel instead, which essentially becomes the world's biggest leather bar for four days). But, yes, most IML attendees are fags. Because IML is not "one of the biggest leather and fetish events in the world," it's one of the biggest gay leather and fetish events in the world. IML got its start in a gay leather bar and it continues to be a gay contest for a gay leather title. (Although Seattle—always ahead of the curve—sent a bisexual leatherman to compete for the title nearly 20 years ago.)
Women are, however, more than welcome to attend IML. There were women working the doors at IML this year, there were women selling merchandise in the Leather Mart, there were leatherdykes hanging out in the lobby, and there were scores of (sometimes very annoying) straight women at IML tittering in corners with their gay besties from work. But women were outnumbered at IML. And you know what? Just as women are outnumbered at the annual International Mr. Leather Contest, men are outnumbered at the annual Ms. International Leather Contest. Go figure.
Terry and I go to IML every year. We go so we can see old friends, Terry can swan around looking amazing in leather, and I can personally thank people who've been guest experts in "Savage Love" and on the "Savage Lovecast" over the years and line up guest experts for future columns and shows. (Thanks to Jonathan and Skeeter from Mr. S, Tynan from Twin Cities Leather, and Stephan from Oxballs!) We have cocktail parties in our suite and while our parties are mostly gay—just like IML itself—there are always women at our parties. Because women are a part of IML and they've always been a part of our IML.
But you know when Terry and I don't have women in our room? When we're fucking. Which brings us back to Barry's piece:
I was with my female friend at the time when we were invited to one such party on the 46th floor (the top floor) in a massive suite. Upon entering we found encompassed in near complete darkness, illuminated only by the glow of the city night's lights which the room overlooked. It was also exceptionally humid—I'd estimate there were about 150 bodies crammed into the suite, doing pretty much everything your imagination will let you. But despite the relative anonymity that darkness afforded, it only took five minutes before my friend was asked to leave.
"You can't be here. You're a woman," she was told.
My friend is a naturally shy and reserved person who's recently expressed an interest in the kink and BDSM community. While IML seemed like an opportune time to explore these interests, she was nervous about doing so—intimidation, internal struggle and fear of rejection are frequent barriers when it comes to people openly exploring their own sexuality.
I stepped in, approaching the man who was kicking her out. It was unclear whether this man was the actual tenant of the suite or one of the hundred-plus strangers who had entered into the room and felt threatened by the presence of a woman.
"She's not causing any trouble. She's with me," I said.
"This is a party for men. Women aren't allowed," he retorted.
Here's a coincidence for you: the party Barry's friend was asked to leave was directly across the hall from our suite. This is a picture of Terry and a friend waiting for the elevator—which is how you spend most of your time at IML—and look! We're on Level 46, bitches, top floor, top drawer:
That party on 46 (and everyone at it) was going down while we were having a fully-clothed cocktail party in our room across the hall—a cocktail party with several women in attendance—and if Barry's friend had come to our party I would've made her drink and introduced her to a few people. But I don't care how curious Barry's friend is about gay sex or BDSM or kink or leather. We wouldn't want a women in our hotel room watching us have sex. And our refusal to allow Barry's friend to stay after the party and watch us have sex isn't proof that we hate women or are "threatened" by them. Each of us gets to decide who we want in our room when we're having sex—whether we're having sex with one person or 149 people.
Which brings me to the gist/j'accuse of Barry's piece: A guy takes a female friend to a gay orgy—because a gay orgy is absolutely the best place for a "shy and reserved" woman to begin exploring her sexuality—and she was asked to leave and this, in addition to how few women Barry spotted in the Leather Market earlier that day, is proof that "misogyny [is] exemplified within the gay leather community."
Puh-leeze.
For the record: I don't go to parties like the one Barry dragged his shy and reserved friend to. They're not my scene. But a gay orgy is the last place on earth I would take someone—male or female—who was "naturally shy and reserved." And I have to call bullshit on Barry. (Whom I've met! And liked!) He says his friend is curious about leather and BDSM and that's why she wanted to attend the orgy on the 46th floor. I promise you that there was no BDSM going on in the suite across the hall from us. People don't have BDSM sex in rooms packed with 150 guys. All Barry's lady friend was going to see in that suite was a Hieronymus-Bosch-esque tableaux of guys sucking each other's cocks and jacking each other off. No one would be getting expertly flogged or elaborately mummified or doing an e-stim demo in a crowd like that. All you see at those kind of parties at IML—all you see at the orgies at IML—are vanilla types in tennis shoes having vanilla sex wearing the harnesses they bought earlier that day at the Leather Market.
My rant is now longer than the piece I'm ranting about. Just two more quick points and then I'll shut up: Barry doesn't just hold up the "men only" rule at that gay orgy as proof that the gay leather scene, as exemplified by IML, is misogynistic. It's also proof that the gay leather scene, according to Barry, is deeply transphobic as well.
Barry? I'd like you to meet Tyler McCormick, Mr. International Leather 2010. Tyler just so happens to be... a trans man:
Are there transphobes in the gay leather/fetish community? Of course there are, just as there are homophobes in the straight leather/fetish community. But the the gay leather/fetish community is less transphobic than the wider culture—wake me when a trans woman wins the Miss American pageant—just as the straight leather/fetish community is less homophobic than the wider culture.
Final point: I don't know how Barry identifies. But I've been reading him for a while and he seems to date women exclusively. So I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Barry is a straight guy. Which would make his IML piece another example of a purported LGBT ally barging into a queer space (a queer space he knows nothing about), encountering the limits of his straight privilege in that queer space ("What do you mean I can't bring a woman to this gay orgy?!?"), and then spending the rest of the night self-righteously lecturing queer people about what bad queers we are.
It tells us more about him than it does about us.
I hope she isn't dissuaded, and has better luck next time.
Straight people is so dumb sometimes.
The operative phrase seems to be "when we were invited". Who invited "them" and what was that person's connection to the all-male orgy? Was he alone when he was invited, whether or not the invitation was expanded to include his friend? Was his friend present and clearly presenting as female when the invitation was extended? My guess would be that at best there was a misunderstanding and he didn't realize that the person who invited him and said to bring his friend along thought his friend with a non-gendered name to be male.
The piece itself sounds like a cross between classic straightsplaining and post-gay Utopianism in which we just can't have segregated things any more.
Have a nice day.
Ragu? Meet Ramien Pierre, Mr. International Leather 2014:
http://chicago.gopride.com/news/article.…
The glare of his white privilege is nearly blinding, isn't it?
How the fuck is a private suite a semi-public space? How is it misogynistic to politely explain to a woman that she has happened upon a male-only sex party to which she was clearly not invited? Private sex parties, even ones with lots of people, are not semi-public.
" Each of us gets to decide who we want in our room when we're having sex—whether we're having sex with one person or 149 people. "
Isn't it kinda the nature of an orgy that you DON'T get that much say in who joins in? If there's someone who is a total turn-off to you do you get to vote him out? And did they poll the crowd for bisexuals who might've been into a woman joining in?
I'm mostly joking but I have no idea of orgy etiquette so it's a somewhat genuine question.
I'd guess there are probably a few gay misogynists who are just trying to get Manly Points by slagging off women (just like there are probably some girls who hang out with straight bros who like to score One of the Boys points with homophobic jokes), but I haven't met any.
I don't think the guy who wrote the Huffpo article has met either type, at least not in the course of researching this piece. What an asswipe.
Although IML welcomes voyeurs to enjoy the multitude of exhibitionists, IML is not a gay zoo for straight men or women to visit for their misguided amusement, especially when expressed through alternating giggles and gasps like silly, rude and ignorant adolescents and religious prudes.
Second, if you come to a play party, you came to play, whatever role you choose. Play parties really aren't for casual observers.
If you want to watch without being involved, the IML sells some of the best BDSM and leather porn found anywhere for you to watch in the safe and completely uninvolved space of your own hotel room.
If you want to observe BDSM demonstrations, several sessions are held by vendors in the IML market; they welcome you to observe, to learn and, if you're lucky, to participate.
If you want to experience a fetish community for the first time, seek out a friend or sponsor who is a member of the community to help introduce, interpret and acclimate you. If you don't know anyone who will serve as your "buddy" at IML, perhaps, you shouldn't attend until you better understand the community. Perhaps, you need to start by making that friend or group of friends back home or online before you make the jump into the deep end by attending IML or a play party.
I mean, not like that isn't how the world acts already, though. Lesbians are about as invisible as straight women, so big surprise if Dan the Gay Man is going to go stomp all over gay women the way straight men do to, you know, everyone else.
Poor girl.
Read some history, then blog indignantly. Not the other way around.
I was just coming up with the best case I could deem plausible for the writer. He does manifest fairly classic post-gay thinking typical of the straight man who kinda sorta thinks the world would be a better place if nobody were an exclusive same-sexer, and so that's what his grasp of post-gay leads him to project, that there is no more icky exclusive homosexuality and no segregated-by-orientation spaces.
Only thing worse that a word nazi is a stupid word nazi.
After already stating you do not attend these orgies I am not surprised you said that.
The play parties I attend are amazing hard core fun and intense..
HELP HELP, I'M BEING OPPRESSED!
Shit, I spend more time hanging out in the smoking area out front catching up with friends I only get to see once a year... or hanging out with the bootblacks because bootblacks are awesome.
And he has the fucking gaul to call himself a "sex-positive, GBLT ally."
Sorry... Barry... you're not an ally. You like your gays like you like the fish in a tank. They're pretty to watch and funny to laugh at. But no... you are not an ally if you come to one of our events with the OBVIOUS intention of calling us "woman haters" because we wouldn't let your girlfriend watch us fuck.
Hadn't known that Dinah Shore is a lesbian icon. Actually, I hadn't really known who she was at all. I am a friend of a friend of Dorothy, though.
Ragu & Raku aren't the same person. Most of Ragu's work is easily recognized as a satirical parody of Raku. It's actually worth checking out Ragu's profile and reading through their comments. It's really well done and pretty freaking funny.
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
But, seriously, ladies, the line has to be drawn somewhere, and the men's play party door seems more than reasonable.
Frankly, it's just too creepy and weird for you to be there or to want to be there.
We love you, but we have to have some boundaries that are respected.
Gay men are way more tolerant of straight women in their spaces or at their events than lesbians ever would be of straight men (men, period) at their spaces and events.
Lesbians wouldn't let a straight man near the covered dish club meeting, much less their BDSM event.
Hell, even with all of my lesbian family and friends, I've never even heard of an annual lesbian event with group play parties (orgies). Is there such a thing? No, stop, don't tell me; I don't want or need to know that about my lesbian sisters.
Why can’t there be just one place where GAY men can go to be away from women? Why do women have to insert themselves into every corner where GAY men go? NEWSFLASH: Ladies, gay men are GAAAAYYY. They don’t want your tities or vaginias. Got it? They don’t WAAAAAAAAANNNNNTTTT YOU!
Last weekend at Bearracuda (the Seattle Eagle event where larger “bear” type men strip down to their underwear to enjoy each other’s company) I counted at least FOUR (4) fucking women. Who the hell is so goddam stupid that they drag in their gal-pals to ruin an event like Bearracuda? Yes it is illegal to bar women from the premises. They DOES NOT mean you girlies were welcome there. Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing KILLS the GAY erotic energy in a room faster than a fag-hag screeching at the top of her lungs for attention. And yet, there she was, with her piercing cackle and everything was so GODDAM FUCKING FUNNY!
I loathe women in the Eagle. It’s a gay bar - do you get that? There isn’t another Eagle for 1000 fucking miles and you idiots have to drag your snatch to the Eagle to scream her head off and be the loudest bitch in the room. There are literally thousands of bars in Seattle that cater to women, but that’s not enough. No - you have to go to the Eagle, too. {insert C-word here}
I would not dream of going to a Lesbian bar. Ever. Not because I don’t think I would be let in, because I don’t want to be the asshole who so ignorantly fouls an all-lesbian space with my male energy. To this day I have never been to the Wild Rose or any other lesbian space because I’M NOT A LESBIAN! But that sort of consideration is WAY beyond you ladies (you don’t give a fuck, do you?).
Go to the Cuff (you ruined it a long time ago). Go to Pony - with their gay porn on the walls and the nearly naked bio-hazard tattoo boy dancing on the bar if you have to (after all, what better place to find early twenty-something girls with ponytails more than Pony?). Even go to Diesel if you absolutely, positively have to brush your filthy pillows against a bunch of bears, but stay out of the fucking Eagle!
I totally agree. I'm not into a lot of the gay bar scene but even I've seen that there is nowhere where a guy can go and just be with the guys. Maybe there should be a members only club or something to bar women. Nothing against women, but if they can have lesbian clubs galore, why can't we have just one club of our own?
Actually, there was this one gay bar in NYC that NEVER had women in it...it was a gay sports bar. No shows, no loud music, just us regular guys who like sports and are also gay/bi. Gay and a sports bar...what incentive do women have to go there?
Why couldn't there be a gay sports bar in Seattle? Add that to the list of why this city sucks.
But in all honesty, this is indeed the dumbest thing I've read in awhile. Why can't women get that sometimes gay men want to be gay men and the "fag hags" or "fruit flies" or whatever you want to call them aren't always welcome?
I can't stand the way some of these women are towards us...like we're cute fucking puppies or something who exist just so they have someone "fun" to hangout with.
I've been to my fair share of play parties (women only and mixed) and I know that *I* would feel uncomfortable at a men's play party even if I had been invited (which I can't imagine why I would be invited...)
Barry, it wasn't a wine and cheese party, it was an orgy. Did *YOU* really even want to be there? Or did you really just show up to prove a point?
I think a lot of women just have difficulty believing that every man, regardless of sexual orientation, does not desire her 100% presence in all things, all the time. It really doesn't matter how many times I use all-caps to clarify how serious I am, there will always be women who aggressively want to ruin the mood gay men have for each other as a way to punish them for being gay.
We still have two gay bath houses we can go to and be away from the feminist hordes, although we must risk STD's in order to enjoy that privilege (which is exactly what women want us to have to deal with). Yea yeah, that masoginsitic (intentionally misspelled). Whatever.
And Dan, seeing you're
In voice here today, giving @31 an earful( calling her an idiot? Cause she's not up to date with 70s Feminism?), perhaps you could jump in here.. @53.. Point out his delusional mind/ as if ALL women
Desire 100% attention.
Also, women who have sex with women still do call themselves gay/ guess they missed the directive coming thru the pipeline from those earlier Feminist Hordes..
There is some anti-male bullshit going on here. Some weird lefty feminist agenda that hates all men.
The FH term was generally not negative at one point in time, although it seems to have become so recently. It could be a reflection of how old-fashioned someone is, although, of course, where you are things might be different.
As for Mr JJ's point, speaking as a gay man with a narrow majority of friends in the F column and assorted female role models, of course gay male misogyny exists. It's a major reason why I couldn't seriously go full-on separatist. (Maybe I could in a matriarchy, in which the counterpart would have the systemic backing it lacks here.)
I think Dan has made it very clear over the years that he's an important leader for the whole GLBT community. Let's not get so caught up on semantics that we forget that and end up attacking someone who is doing all he can for the rights of the whole community.
However, if you are invited to a private party in someone's suite and then you get their and are told no women it is the up to the person who rented the suite.
This article is the stupist thing I have in a veryb long time.
The only reason you may have thought iml was a gay event os that so many of us go to iml. But it is a leather for everyone.
That being said: no gay guy wants a vagina anywhere near where they are fucking or trying to hook up with someone to fuck. I'm glad that women who try to are made to feel uncomfortable because they should be.
1.) There are women like me who are into crossdressers, and that was the one place I could go to meet them. Bisexual crossdressers will go to gay bars if they have crossdresser nights, like the gay bar I went to did.
2.) Going to a gay bar is a blessed relief because it is the one bar where men are not constantly hitting on you. Although even there, one time a straight guy who had come to meet a friend tried to pick me up. Sometimes a woman just wants a drink in peace.
3.) Women have gay friends, and it would be unfair if they always went to straight bars to drink. I want to reassure montex that we don't want to have sex with you. Bars are a place to be social, they aren't just a place to find hookups.
4.) Yes, there is the curiosity factor, but that's a damn good thing. I remember as a young college student thinking the Ramrod here in Boston was a place of disturbing mystery--gay men were The Other and more than a bit scary. 25 years later I became a weekly regular. And it's straights like me, who saw gay men, even gay men in a group, as ordinary who helped get LGBT rights expanded.
I want to make it clear that I totally agree with Dan. There are places that women are welcome and places they are not. Gay orgies are no place for a woman, but I would hope that gay bars are, or at the very least if the gay bar is in actuality a place for orgy, that they at least have a front room with a bar where men can come up for air, where women can have a drink.
Now, the following comment has nothing to do with the point of your editorial, but just for the record I would like to point out, that IML technically is NOT "a gay leather/fetish contest and convention." At least, not by IML's contestant criteria. It IS a men's leather contest, to be sure, and both the contest and weekend is most definitely vastly populated by gay men. But it is not a gay contest. Straight men, bi men, trans men, gay men -- all may compete and the contest has always been open to such (that being said, trans men might be a newer admission... I'm not sure about that).
If you want to cite a strictly gay contest, I'll point you to American Brotherhood Weekend (ABW) and the titles of American Leatherman and American Leatherwoman. www.americanbrotherhood.com In order to compete for those titles, you must identify and operate as gay/homosexual/lesbian. And be biologically male (American Leatherman) or female (American Leatherwoman). Contestants for the American Leatherboy title, which rounds out the American Leather Family, can be any gender, but must identify as a boy. That event happens in October.
Sexuality is a very personal thing and women need to respect that gay men do not want them around when the cocks come out.
I love women and have many female friends but being able to go to a place like the Eagle and have it just be guys is not any different for the same reason that straight guys don't ask women along on their 'boys weekend camping trip'. Guy energy needs to flow sometimes and it absolutely changes the atmosphere when that female energy is around.
I would ask this of Barry, the author; What is a straight guy doing there? If you do not identify as gay then get the f*** out of a gay orgy and take your tour group with you, please. I suspect that whomever asked Barry to drop in on the 46th floor did not invite the female companion and also presumed that Barry was gay (he was, after all, a man at a gay man's event).
This message is as important for straight men as it is for women to understand: Unless you are going to 'go gay' and whip out your cock, or you're gonna suck some, go away, we don't want you as a spectator. It's not a zoo, it's an invite only gay orgy. Apparently an invite was extended to you in error.
What great commentary on the article that pissed a lot of us off! I'm female, a long time member of the "Leather Community", a former international title holder, and yes, I was at IML with my hot (female) fiance. And guess what-- I was hugged, kissed, and welcomed by hundreds of gay leathermen. While, it is true that there aren't a lot of females present at IML, it has never been a "hostile" environment for me-- mostly because I don't try to go where it would be stupid to visit. A bit of a correction-- it's International Ms leather (IMsL), but otherwise your response was spot on.
Pony
International Ms Bootblack 2009
He had an article he wanted to write when he walked in the door. He wanted to write it on the backs of women and gender nonconforming people and he thought he would get away with it in Chicago. He learned otherwise.
Thank you, Dan, for using your voice to clarify the truth of the matter. And for the record, I'm a skirt-wearing Leatherwoman who never has trouble finding a party that I am welcome at during IML - of course, I'm also not trying to attend the men-only orgies because, you know, I'm not a man.
2.) "Going to a gay bar is a blessed relief because it is the one bar where men are not constantly hitting on you. Although even there, one time a straight guy who had come to meet a friend tried to pick me up. Sometimes a woman just wants a drink in peace."
Yes I am sure it is really tough to have men approach you, a single woman sitting in a bar, and seeking out your company.
But don't you also see the humor: A straight woman dresses so straight men are aware of her tits, her ass etc and then complains about it. Or even just sits there looking demure and proper but she is female. But she gets "hit" on because the guy responds and says "hello." That's cause for complaint. Funny in a weird way. And I don't believe it.
(Obviously if a guy is being obnoxious and unpleasant and not taking no for an answer, that is a different matter. But that is not what you said. You said I am just so tired of men approaching me. Bullshit.)
Sometimes I wish I were gay so I wouldn't have to bother with crazy women.
This woman was taken somewhere that her inexperience would not have prepared her for. i think Dan is quite right in laying the blame at the feet of the experienced dood who took her there. *HE* should have known better.
As for women in gay male spaces, remember that not every where has a strong lesbian community. In my city, there's *a* lesbian bar, and it's often populated by straight men. So, I and other queer women will go to the gay men's bars. Is it so wrong that we want to be surrounded by other members of our community?
But sometimes...I just want to have a drink at a bar by myself, undisturbed. A gay bar is a nice relief because those social expectations are missing. I can have a drink the way a man might at a straight bar.
It's too bad that social expectations aren't switched around the other way, where women are expected to do the asking and men are expected to wait quietly and look pretty. I think men as a gender would have an easier time of it being sex objects, being pursued, etc. My two gender cents.
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