top 200 commentsshow all 238

[–]buffalo_pete 11 ポイント12 ポイント

no mass murder, no restriction of freedoms, no gulags, no Orwellian dystopia, just democracy

If you want "democratic" control of my business, you must restrict my freedom to get it. If I refuse to accept this, ultimately you either have to give up or resort to mass murder and gulags. I'm telling you now, I refuse to accept it. What's your next move?

[–]funkeepickle [score hidden]

Seizing your business. No mass murder or gulags required.

[–]Baxaxaxa [score hidden]

So basically you prefer compulsory work over leasure and free shit?

[–]TheDesertFox929[S] [score hidden]

Well you would be breaking the law, you wouldn't be killed, tortured or anything like that, but probably put in jail for a few months or so after being given a warning. I mean since wage labor is basically theft we would probably try you as a thief.

[–]huwat [score hidden]

So.... gulags.

[–]Narian [score hidden]

How can you honestly post such nonsense?!

[–]TheDesertFox929[S] [score hidden]

No, I wouldn't put you in a gulag, they were forced labor camps and there inhabitants where treated very poorly and in an inhuman manner, I wouldn't even think of committing such a crime on humanity. Honestly though I don't think that complete democratization of the workplace is possible any time soon so I'd be willing to simply say that people could keep their businesses as long as workers were allowed to elect representatives to protect their interests or something similar to that.

[–]a-grue [score hidden]

So you wouldn't put him in a horrible prison, just a... less bad prison.

[–]OfHammersAndSickles [score hidden]

The same exact argument was used for slavery.

[–]chunkypants 36 ポイント37 ポイント

Many reasons.

There is no way to get from where we are to there. Means of production isn't communally owed now, and there's no way to make it except to take it from the people who made it. No socialist I've ever met proposed buyouts.

Its obviously difficult to implement. So far, 100% of the time someone has tried, it ended in disaster. Maybe next time it'll be different, but I'm not taking the chance.

Socialism isn't productive. If it was, some socialist style co-op with 100% pure workplace democracy would have out-competed WalMart and McDonalds.

People don't like being forced to cooperate. We're tribal and we don't agree on anything. Suspicious of outsiders and not inclined to give them the fruits of our labor, especially if they're lazy. Humans are not bees in a hive.

Businesses have many different roles. Not everyone should have input in which capital expenditure to make, or which contract to pursue. Frankly most people aren't cut out for the stress of running a business and managing people. Its really hard. I've done it. It cannot be run democratically.

Frankly, socialism to me is just some 19th century philosopher's writings. It hasn't ever worked in practice. Certainly not on the scale of the US. Its enticing to read about, but it can't work.

[–]emnot3 44 ポイント45 ポイント

There is no way to get from where we are to there.

This is false. There are many socialist options for the future of the economy of a nation.

Means of production isn't communally owed now

I'm afraid this is not socialism. In socialism, the means of production is not communally owned - it is worker owned.

...and there's no way to make it except to take it from the people who made it.

And the people who made it rely on taking from the masses of people they employ in order to make a profit for themselves. This is why I do not believe capitalism is very ethical.

Its obviously difficult to implement.

It's difficult to implement any new major socioeconomic system.

So far, 100% of the time someone has tried, it ended in disaster.

Oh, really? I was unaware that socialism produced such disastrous results. Could you define "disaster," and give some examples, please?

Socialism isn't productive. If it was, some socialist style co-op with 100% pure workplace democracy would have out-competed WalMart and McDonalds.

This is false. The National Cooperative Grocers Association estimates that there are roughly 47,000 cooperatives in the United States. The number of businesses in the United States resembling some form of socialism, such as worker co-ops, are vastly outnumbered by those that do not resemble socialism. The fact that socialist-like businesses do not outperform vast, overly-wealthy, and empire-like corporations like Walmart and McDonald's is clearly not due to their business structure.

People don't like being forced to cooperate. We're tribal and we don't agree on anything. Suspicious of outsiders and not inclined to give them the fruits of our labor, especially if they're lazy. Humans are not bees in a hive.

This argument generalizes human nature as if it can be succinctly defined in a few sentences, disregarding the specifics of human evolutionary biology and psychology, which offer less concise and intuitive insights. You're also misunderstanding what socialism is yet again - it doesn't "force" people to cooperate. Socialism doesn't require that everyone agrees on everything; in fact, that's part of what being in a democratic economic system is all about.

Not everyone should have input in which capital expenditure to make, or which contract to pursue.

Why not?

Frankly most people aren't cut out for the stress of running a business and managing people.

Really? People can manage stress - many don't for other reasons. And it is really so stressful to democratically run a business? In some ways, of course, but not to the point where it will ultimately cause the demise of the business. You'll have to do some elaboration on this point.

It cannot be run democratically.

If you're saying it's totally impossible for businesses to be run democratically, you'd be objectively and totally wrong.

Frankly, socialism to me is just some 19th century philosopher's writings.

Then you have no clear understanding of what true socialism is and how it has progressed through the years, and therefore must be taken with a grain of salt in the context of this discussion. Socialism is far, far more than what Karl Marx made of it.

It hasn't ever worked in practice.

Define "work." Too many people like to say, "Socialism hasn't worked in practice," or "It's good in theory, but it can't exist." The fact that many people can't elaborate or substantiate this argument is very frustrating and intellectually dishonest. Can you please explain what you mean by "not working"?

[–]zx7 3 ポイント4 ポイント

This is false. The National Cooperative Grocers Association estimates that there are roughly 47,000 cooperatives in the United States.

Wasn't Google run in a "socialist" style at one point? I mean that employees were "paid" with stocks?

[–]emnot3 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I don't know. That information's new to me.

[–]chunkypants 6 ポイント7 ポイント

There are many socialist options for the future of the economy of a nation.

Name one that doesn't involve stealing people's property. The only acceptable way for this to happen is for socialist co-op businesses to out compete capitalist businesses and either buy them out or run them into bankruptcy. This won't ever happen.

the means of production is not communally owned - it is worker owned.

Congrats on splitting hairs.

his is why I do not believe capitalism is very ethical.

I disagree, obviously. When I owned my own business, I didn't steal anything from anyone.

The fact that socialist-like businesses do not outperform vast, ... not due to their business structure.

Then what is it due to?

You're also misunderstanding what socialism is yet again

Ah, I knew this would come up. The old tried-and-true "you don't know socialism is" canard. There are more varieties of socialism then there are breeds of dogs.

Why not?

Did you even read my post? I answered this in the next sentence. Most people are incapable of understanding that kind of thing. Some people are mouth breathing mopes who wear crocs to walmart and can barely hold a job. You want someone like that running your business?

And it is really so stressful to democratically run a business

Running a business is stressful. Having the janitors write the business plan would chaotic.

If you're saying it's totally impossible

Not totally. But successful, efficient, large businesses cannot be democratic.

Socialism is far, far more than what Karl Marx made of it.

And I don't know what sub-sect of socialist you are. Even if you told me, I have better things to do than keep up on the latest fads in socialism.

Define "work." Too many people like to say, "Socialism hasn't worked in practice," or "It's good in theory, but it can't exist."

As far as I know, no large, successful business has ever run under a socialist system. Every country run by people who called themselves either socialist, marxist, or communist has been a complete disaster. My grandmother was born in 1919 in Leipzig and lived under communist rule and had a Stasi file. Erich Honecker was a socialist, and his country was a complete shithole and a failure. I want no part of it.

[–]lithobolos 5 ポイント6 ポイント

Just stopping by to say regulations and taxes are not generally considered stealing. If you are going to go that far then I'm calling all of capitalism stealing.

Check out John Rawls and Scandinavian countries.

[–]chunkypants 5 ポイント6 ポイント

Do you really think I've lived 38 years on this planet and don't know anything about Scandinavian countries? None of them are socialist anyway, so its irrelevant.

[–]rdinsb [score hidden]

I think Scandinavian countries are relevant since there are no purely capitalistic or socialistic countries in the world - only degrees, we can say that they are far more socialistic than others and very happy and successful.

[–]chewingofthecud [score hidden]

Denmark and Sweden were among the top 5 largest economies in the world up until the 1950s, when they changed to a much more socialized economic model. Since then their economies have been in sharp decline, and they are now #33 and #22 respectively.

The success of "Scandinavian socialism" rests on a foundation of nearly a century of free market growth, and this is touted as a victory for socialism by people who do not know, or wish to know, anything about history.

[–]rdinsb [score hidden]

I don't know about that- its been 60 years since 1950 and they are very happy and I don't agree with your characterization that their economies are in "sharp decline".

[–]yoda133113 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Just stopping by to say that he wasn't remotely referring to regulations and taxes. If you're not going to follow the conversation enough to understand that he's referring to the passing of ownership from himself to "the workers", maybe you should go back and reread the whole thread.

[–]emnot3 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Name one that doesn't involve stealing people's property.

Stealing people's property? Socialism doesn't do that. It merely abolishes private property.

Congrats on splitting hairs.

You'd be surprised at how often the two are confused - and at how they are radically different.

When I owned my own business, I didn't steal anything from anyone.

You may not have felt like you did. However, by the inherent functions of capitalism, all employers and business owners must not compensate their workers in full for the worth of their labor, otherwise no profit would be made.

Then what is it due to?

I have already said why. The reality is, co-ops are vastly underrepresented in the American market.

Ah, I knew this would come up. The old tried-and-true "you don't know socialism is" canard. There are more varieties of socialism then there are breeds of dogs.

Not quite, but like any branch of thought, there are many variants, yes. But I'm not complaining that you don't understand specific kinds of socialism - it's that you misunderstand socialism as a whole, yet try to argue against it.

Did you even read my post? I answered this in the next sentence.

And so did I.

Some people are mouth breathing mopes who wear crocs to walmart and can barely hold a job. You want someone like that running your business?

Better and more comprehensive education, particularly in regards to business-running, is something that many leftists such as myself are very interested in.

Running a business is stressful. Having the janitors write the business plan would chaotic.

There are many socialist models that don't require the laborers to make every single mundane choice for the business. Many include workers' councils, or other forms of democratic representation. Many include a voting system. The janitors wouldn't write out the business plan!

Not totally. But successful, efficient, large businesses cannot be democratic.

This is false.

And I don't know what sub-sect of socialist you are. Even if you told me, I have better things to do than keep up on the latest fads in socialism.

Again, I didn't ask you to familiarize yourself with the various sects in socialism. What I was talking about was that you don't even understand the basics of socialism and leftist economics.

[–]chunkypants 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Stealing people's property? Socialism doesn't do that. It merely abolishes private property.

So my business goes from being mine to not being mine and I'm not compensated for the loss. What would you call that? I own rental property now, and under socialism I would lose my property. That's not stealing?

You may not have felt like you did

Baloney. I hired people at the market price and paid them what I promised them. Not stealing. The business exists because I started it, and poured every nickel I had, and every waking minute for 3 years into it. I created it, the proceeds belong to me. When I sold it, I didn't divy up the equity to people who worked for me, because it was my work that made it possible. Being forced to part with what I created for zero compensation is stealing.

The reality is, co-ops are vastly underrepresented in the American market

Why are they underrepresented, when anyone is free to start a co-op? Why is no co-op dominating an industry?

Better and more comprehensive education, particularly in regards to business-running

Many people are stupid. I was valedictorian of my high school, top 10% in college, my wife was valedictorian of her HS and an Ivy League college and we've had trouble running businesses. You fundamentally do not understand it if you think most people can be taught how to run a successful business. Its a very rare combination of things, some of which cannot be taught.

[–]emnot3 9 ポイント10 ポイント

So my business goes from being mine to not being mine and I'm not compensated for the loss.

How is a business totally yours? You are entirely dependent on your workers, who produce the goods so you can make a profit.

I own rental property now, and under socialism I would lose my property. That's not stealing?

Look here for a quick explanation on land in socialism. For property rights in general, look here.

In short, if the things you own, including land, are communally used, they are communally owned so exploitation is eradicated.

Why are they underrepresented, when anyone is free to start a co-op? Why is no co-op dominating an industry?

Because the United States is not socialist. Many people are also unfamiliar with the concept of cooperatives. But most importantly, the market is dominated by large corporate powerhouses that despise the idea of workers owning the means of production - they much prefer capitalism, where they can get as rich as they want without much thought to the rights of the workers.

I was valedictorian of my high school, top 10% in college, my wife was valedictorian of her HS and an Ivy League college and we've had trouble running businesses. You fundamentally do not understand it if you think most people can be taught how to run a successful business. Its a very rare combination of things, some of which cannot be taught.

It is objectively true that people can be taught how to run businesses well.

Edit: Also, check out this post.

[–]chunkypants 3 ポイント4 ポイント

How is a business totally yours?

I made it. My work, capital, ideas, business plan, energy, and life. Mine. Not theirs. They work for me, at the terms we agreed on. And taking my equity isn't part of the agreement.

In short, if the things you own, including land, are communally used, they are communally owned so exploitation is eradicated.

I subscribe to /r/socialism and I read the first thread when it was posted. The answer is I would lose my property and all the money, time, and effort I put into running and maintaining it. That's unacceptable.

But most importantly, the market is dominated by large corporate powerhouses that despise the idea of workers owning the means of production

You're missing my point. Co-ops are less efficient and less productive. What other companies think of you doesn't matter a bit. Do you think Microsoft cared what Novell, Caldera, and all their other competitors thought of them? No, Microsoft ran them out of business. Someday, someone will run walmart out of business. And it definitely will not be a co-op.

If every company in the whole country is less productive, that means our GDP goes down and our standard of living decreases. I would argue it would go down drastically.

It is objectively true that people can be taught how to run businesses well.

At the risk of getting doxxed, I'll tell you I started a tech company in the hospitality industry. I'm pretty good at that. But I'm not good at running a company once it gets bigger than 20 or 30 people. I spent two years looking for a good CEO, because I don't have the capability to do everything that a good CEO can do. We needed capital, a better vision, better finances and leadership. Someone who can do all those things well is rare, and expensive. When its your company on the line, you're not risking it on some guy who needs to be taught it. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn't learn it. In the end, I sold my company for far less than I could have otherwise, because I couldn't find that one guy to be CEO. The efforts of everyone else didn't matter, because the boat didn't have the right guy at the helm.

One of the smartest guys I know has a business that makes about $12 million a year in profit with 10 employees. He's stuck and cannot grow the business because he doesn't want to give up control. If you met him, you'd assume he is capable of running a successful business. But he's not. Even after 10 years, he hasn't learned everything that it takes to run a successful business.

I'm going to disagree with you and say most people cannot learn to run a business. Its my opinion obviously, but I've never seen it happen.

[–]whatevsusername 5 ポイント6 ポイント

I made it. My work, capital, ideas, business plan, energy, and life. Mine. Not theirs. They work for me, at the terms we agreed on. And taking my equity isn't part of the agreement.

Rome was not built by one. And frankly, the broader society is more important then your ego. Fact is all your little "mine! it's mine!" quips don't mean anything when stacked up against the massive poverty and exploitation that capitalism unleashes on the world.

The answer is I would lose my property and all the money, time, and effort I put into running and maintaining it.

Or you can take part in a more equal and ethical way. If you stop with the boss attitude and actually work with your workers instead of bossing them around then you get to keep all these things. You just have to share a little and take into account the feelings and situations of others. And frankly, if that sounds bad to you then tough luck. If you don't treat the rest of society with respect why should they respect you?

You're missing my point. Co-ops are less efficient and less productive

On a small scale? No, they aren't. And frankly the world can do without giant multinational corporations.

Do you think Microsoft cared what Novell, Caldera, and all their other competitors thought of them? No, Microsoft ran them out of business.

You have to remember that socialists/anti-capitalists want to reshape the economy based on mutual aid, not on competition. The idea is that everybody helps keep the place afloat, other like minded organizations do the same, and so on. This isn't business for money so much as business with a political or creative agenda.

There's been institutions like this that have been just barely getting by for literally decades, but they survive simply because the community considers them valuable.

But I'm not good at running a company once it gets bigger than 20 or 30 people. I spent two years looking for a good CEO, because I don't have the capability to do everything that a good CEO can do.

See, if your company was a co-op then those 20 or 30 people all would have shouldered a bit of the responsibility and all of their individual talents and ideas would have come out. Instead you relied on one individual to boss everybody around. An individual who, as you said, was flawed.

You put all your eggs in one basket, but you could have had multiple baskets, know what I mean?

[–]The_Eye_Of_Adam 0 ポイント1 ポイント

You have to remember that socialists/anti-capitalists want to reshape the economy based on mutual aid, not on competition. The idea is that everybody helps keep the place afloat, other like minded organizations do the same, and so on. This isn't business for money so much as business with a political or creative agenda.

But in utopian socialism there is no state or ruling class. If there is no central authority enforcing this society based on "mutual aid", then how is it supposed to arise? How are you supposed to prevent people from engaging once again in private enterprise, eating up worker owned businesses and creating a system of anarcho-capitalism?

[–]whatevsusername 1 ポイント2 ポイント

If there is no central authority enforcing this society based on "mutual aid", then how is it supposed to arise?

Anarchists/socialists/whatever who cares aren't opposed to organization. They're opposed to centralized, non-democratic, forms of authority. Basically, instead of a representative government you have your town hall and instead of expecting others to speak for you, you can show up and speak for yourself. Issues that effect everybody in a community are dealt with by a community.

That's just one example. Things that need to get done will get done simply because people want them done. Kind of like taking out your trash. Nobody wants to do it, but if you don't it's just gonna pile up. So you might as well do it. Society isn't much different when you take away the red tape.

That aside, mutual aid as a concept has nothing to do with "enforcing" people to do anything. It's people, by themselves, coming to the conclusion that something is worth helping or is valuable and then acting on that. And people do this sort of thing all the time.

How are you supposed to prevent people from engaging once again in private enterprise

If this sort of revolution ever did happen, either the community would gang up on what they see as an unjust institution, or it simply wouldn't get anywhere. Because who wants to work for somebody who treats you like shit?

[–]relevant_thing 2 ポイント3 ポイント

business owners must not compensate their workers in full for the worth of their labor, otherwise no profit would be made.

If I buy a cup of coffee for $1.50, and then drink it and it adds $2 in value to my life, by your logic I've robbed the coffee shop. I have not.

[–]emnot3 2 ポイント3 ポイント

What are you talking about? The worth of a consumed good in a person's life isn't measured in money.

[–]The_Eye_Of_Adam 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Well that's obviously incorrect. If you buy a coffee for $1.50 then the value that brings to your life is expected to be greater than $1.50. At some point, that coffee would be considered "not worth the price" to you. If you would happily buy a coffee for $1.50, but $2.50 is too expensive, then you can estimate the value of the coffee to be equivalent to a number greater than $1.50 and lower than $2.50.

[–]relevant_thing 1 ポイント2 ポイント

First of all, you're pettifogging. I could just as easily resold the coffee, used it as a factor in the production of goods, or gained productivity from the additional alertness, and put a concrete dollar value on that.

Secondly, you're wrong. It is often said that money can't buy happiness. This is patently false. In fact, happiness is the only thing money has ever bought. The only reason to buy something is to better your life, and if we are to assume that bettering your life is a purely emotional exercise, then to better your life is to be happier, and if money can better your life, it can make you happy. Therefore, the ultimate root of the value of money is its ability to make you happy, and this can be reversed to say that you can (and if have ever purchased anything have) put a dollar value on happiness.

Care to make an actual response?

[–][deleted]

[deleted]

    [–]relevant_thing 4 ポイント5 ポイント

    lol

    Why do you laugh? LTV is thoroughly debunked and with it the theory of alienation.

    [–]chunkypants -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

    Could you define "disaster," and give some examples, please?

    I did. The lack of successful socialist businesses or countries.

    Right. They require slave labor

    Are you conceding the point that socialist co-ops aren't competitive with capitalists? And slavery has been illegal since 1860.

    [–]mitravelus -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

    Mondragon. I mean seriously do some fucking research.

    [–]chunkypants -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

    Mondragon.

    They have revenues of $19 billion, which would make them about the 250th largest company in the US. Except that they don't do business in the US, which is why I haven't heard of them.

    And they're not socialist. Many workers are not owners.

    [–]mitravelus 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    They're not socialist in the strictest sense because they have to function in a capitalist system. Adjustments have to be made. But the point remains that it is entirely possible and your arguments up to now, are either uninformed, anecdotal or flat out wrong. If you don't want to spend the time to actually understand the position you're fighting against that is fine, but don't pretend like your opinion on it is equally valid.

    [–]mitravelus 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    And don't pretend you have anything to do here other than being a threadshitting jerkoff. If you don't want discussion, don't come to this sub. You called me names, and take stupid potshots.

    I didn't call you names? That would be you. I mean the only reason I specifically addressed mondragon was because an example hadn't been made yet. An example by the way, you would've found if you'd spent more than 5 seconds googling. The above poster has more or less addressed everything.

    [–]sckausck [score hidden]

    Some people are mouth breathing mopes who wear crocs to walmart and can barely hold a job.

    Jesus. Just.... Egh. This is a very ugly attitude.

    [–]whatevsusername -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Name one that doesn't involve stealing people's property.

    Frankly, who cares? If something benefits the majority the minority shouldn't hoard their wealth. Especially if that wealth was built through the labor of others.

    I will suffer the temporary injustice of stealing from the rich rather then the long term injustice of capitalism.

    The only acceptable way for this to happen is for socialist co-op businesses to out compete capitalist businesses and either buy them out or run them into bankruptcy. This won't ever happen.

    It can. If anything, worker owned and operated businesses are a lot more efficient and less costly. I worked in a co-op once. Everyone actually liked showing up to work and we made even. This isn't that difficult. And like others have said, there are corporations that run on the co-op model and do quite well, though there isn't a such thing as a perfect system. At worst it's still more ethical then the alternative.

    I disagree, obviously. When I owned my own business, I didn't steal anything from anyone.

    The issue isn't that you "stole", it's that you played a part in a system under which you dominate the lower class.

    Running a business is stressful. Having the janitors write the business plan would chaotic.

    You'd be amazed what kind of creative shit can spring from the minds of janitors if you give them the chance. Go down to a local food not bombs event sometime. In my neighborhood they distribute thousands of pounds of food to thousands of people every week, with virtually no cost to any of the people involved. And it's all run collectively. Granted, they aren't running a business. But the idea that people can't come up with solutions to problems collectively is just not true.

    Some people are mouth breathing mopes who wear crocs to walmart and can barely hold a job. You want someone like that running your business?

    And more people aren't "mouth breathing mopes". There's bad and there's good. Why are you so worried about the bad when there's probably just as much, if not more, good?

    , no large, successful business has ever run under a socialist system.

    For a brief period of time during the Spanish civil war pretty much all of the economy in Catalonia was run that way. And it actually worked extremely well despite the war.

    My grandmother was born in 1919 in Leipzig and lived under communist rule and had a Stasi file. Erich Honecker was a socialist, and his country was a complete shithole and a failure. I want no part of it.

    One does not need to be a state-communist in order to be a socialist.

    [–]Fabiantk [score hidden]

    Frankly, who cares? If something benefits the majority the minority shouldn't hoard their wealth. Especially if that wealth was built through the labor of others.

    By that logic if you own something that I value more highly than you do, I apparently have the right to take it.

    Also, if businesses are as powerful and capable of exploitation as you imagine, what's stopping the lower classes from starting their own business and sharing in this wealth? Starting a business is rather straightforward, and in your eyes leads to virtually guaranteed riches. The conclusion is of course that not everyone is capable of succesfully leading a business.

    [–]PIE-314 [score hidden]

    Frankly, who cares? If something benefits the majority the minority shouldn't hoard their wealth. Especially if that wealth was built through the labor of others.

    And there is the problem with socialism.

    [–]Narian [score hidden]

    That people are too self-interested and fundamentally greedy to think communally and agree to giving up their established power structure?

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 10 ポイント11 ポイント

    There is no way to get from where we are to there. Means of production isn't communally owed now, and there's no way to make it except to take it from the people who made it. No socialist I've ever met proposed buyouts.

    There is certainly several ways to do so, either by revolution (not preferred), a democratic election that saw socialists gain power who then wrote a law mandating democratic organization of businesses is my preferred method and while it is a long shot it's not impossible.

    Socialism isn't productive. If it was, some socialist style co-op with 100% pure workplace democracy would have out-competed WalMart and McDonalds.

    Several studies on worker owned companies have shown that they are more effiecient and more productive. The reason that they are not the dominate form of business is because that they are socialist and we live in a capitalist society, the same reason capitalist forms of organization didn't occur in Rome or feudal France because it wasn't in the write epoch.

    Businesses have many different roles. Not everyone should have input in which capital expenditure to make, or which contract to pursue. Frankly most people aren't cut out for the stress of running a business and managing people. Its really hard. I've done it. It cannot be run democratically.

    The same could be said for government and be just as if not more true, would you argue for totalitarian dictatorship or monarchy over a representative democracy?

    [–]chunkypants 4 ポイント5 ポイント

    either by revolution (not preferred

    I would hope not. Killing everyone who doesn't agree isn't the way to build a just society. Even so, you ignored my point about compensation. Just because you pass a law stealing someone's property doesn't make it right.

    The reason that they are not the dominate form of business is because that they are socialist and we live in a capitalist society

    I don't believe that for a second. That sounds like an excuse. We have the real world examples of socialist countries with very bad economic output to look at.

    a representative democracy?

    Emphasis on "representative". We don't have illiterate hillbillies and gangbangers voting on the next federal budget. They're not capable of understanding it, and most people are also not capable of understanding business. They can flip burgers and that's the extent of their abilities. Legislation is done by specialists, who we elect.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Emphasis on "representative". We don't have illiterate hillbillies and gangbangers voting on the next federal budget.

    Can we agree that workplaces can be run democratically with representative democracy?

    [–]chunkypants 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    No. Certainly not enforced by the law. If you choose to start a business and then give away your equity and control to your workers, go right ahead. Don't force your beliefs on others. I certainly won't do that when I start my next business.

    [–]Cttam 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Why do you have the right to exploit your workers simply because you have the capital required to start a business?

    [–]chunkypants 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Anyone can save their money for a decade, invent a good product, pitch it to investors, bust their ass for 2 years to make their first dollar of profit and own their own business. I grew up shoveling shit on a pig farm. I didn't "have" the capital, I earned it.

    You and I don't agree on the definition of the word "exploit". When I hire someone, we agree on the compensation. If he does the work agreed upon, and I pay him what was agreed on, there's no exploitation. If didn't pay him, that is exploitation. If I turn around and sell the code he wrote for $500k, I don't owe him anything else. His compensation was already agreed on before he did the work. That's not exploiting anyone.

    If you're asking why I get to keep the profit that the business generates, the answer is because I own it. Its mine. I took the risk to start it, built it, and it exists because of me. That's why. I'm sure you disagree, but I don't agree with your definition of exploitation.

    [–]MrDoomBringer 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    No. A factory floor worker for amazon does not understand the business reasons for not making profit.

    [–]Cttam 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Revolutions aren't necessarily violent... (or at the least, do not involve 'killing everyone')

    [–]chunkypants -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    They frequently are. Sometimes they're a bloodbath. I want no part of anything like it. Once you start something like that, there's no controlling it.

    [–]Cttam 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Frequently? I'm not so sure. Also casualties are very often on the side of the revolutionaries at the hands of violent regimes.

    Sure, sometimes it's unfortunately necessary for lives to be lost. Do you also oppose every way that has ever been fought, regardless of the context then?

    [–]chunkypants 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Your comment has merit, but I can't do multiple threads with you. Sorry.

    [–]whatevsusername 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    And yet I bet you're totally cool with the American revolution.

    [–]whatevsusername 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    I would hope not. Killing everyone who doesn't agree isn't the way to build a just society.

    Revolution need not be violent. Though it often is simply because those in power refuse to give it up.

    Just because you pass a law stealing someone's property doesn't make it right.

    Maybe it's because I'm on the libertarian side of socialist, but I don't think laws are what determines the legitimacy of something anyway. The common good does. If the common good needs your factory, then why should your opinion outweigh everyone else?

    "Because it's mine!'

    Well, frankly, tell that to all the people starving in the street because you won't share your food.

    I don't believe that for a second. That sounds like an excuse.

    Most co-ops are small, local, institutions that have no intention of forming large corporations like Mcdonald's. In fact, they're actively opposed to the idea in most cases. These people aren't trying to dominate the world, which is exactly the point. They'd rather you go form your own co-op somewhere then they themselves open a new one.

    We don't have illiterate hillbillies and gangbangers voting on the next federal budget.

    You give our politicians too much credit.

    They're not capable of understanding it, and most people are also not capable of understanding business

    Well now you're just being a classist dick, frankly. People aren't idiots. If you fuck them over they'll know.

    Legislation is done by specialists, who we elect.

    If you believe this then I pity you.

    Our politicians are idiots who got there because either their families are rich, or they support policies that the rich want. Nothing about them is special. Going to Yale because your daddy paid your way in does not make you anymore of an expert then anybody else who can read a fucking book.

    [–]unkz 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    a democratic election that saw socialists gain power who then wrote a law mandating democratic organization of businesses is my preferred method and while it is a long shot it's not impossible.

    I own a small business. Explain to me how this works with respect to the things that I currently own. How about my house, that I paid for using income that I generated from my company? How about my office and computers? Do my employees simply own my stuff now?

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] [score hidden]

    I would not take your house or any other personal property. I would simply ask you to restructure your small business so that workers get to vote in some fashion and are given a voice in how the business is run. Honestly I wouldn't expect in a hundred years for a full socialist ideal to be embraced by full democratic control by the workers, I would personally be willing to let you keep your business as long as you let the workers elect representatives of some sort to protect their interests, this would be an acceptable compromise for me.

    [–]Zig9 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    There is certainly several ways to do so, either by revolution (not preferred),

    So this?

    a democratic election that saw socialists gain power who then wrote a law mandating democratic organization of businesses is my preferred method and while it is a long shot it's not impossible.

    So, state sanctioned mass theft?

    Several studies on worker owned companies have shown that they are more effiecient and more productive.

    Please cite some. Everything I've seen shows that socialism kills productivity, and kills human advancement by taking away the incentives to take risks to make new/better things.

    [–]Iwakura_Lain 6 ポイント7 ポイント

    I'm not the same person you were talking to, but I thought I'd chime in.

    So, state sanctioned mass theft?

    Private property began as theft and it will end as theft. No way around it.

    Please cite some.

    http://community-wealth.org/_pdfs/articles-publications/esops/paper-kramer.pdf

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/30/magazine/who-needs-a-boss.html?_r=0

    http://dept.kent.edu/oeoc/OEOCLibrary/Preprints/LogueYatesProductivityInCooperativesAndWorkerOwnedEnterprises2005.pdf

    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-26560702

    [–]Zig9 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Private property began as theft and it will end as theft. No way around it.

    How so?

    [–]Iwakura_Lain 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    Land was stolen from everyone whenever someone decided that it belonged to them and no one else could use it, or that people who used it must then give the lord a taste in the case of feudalism.

    You don't even have to go back to ancient times for examples of theft. The entire American continent was stolen from peoples that had no concept of private property.

    [–]Chicken2nite 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Many reasons.

    There is no way to get from where we are to there. Means of production isn't communally owed now, and there's no way to make it except to take it from the people who made it. No socialist I've ever met proposed buyouts.

    See Suez Crisis where Nasser wanted to buy out the French and English governments to fund an energy plan involving hydroelectric power generation, which the French and English lawyers found to be legal, but they plotted with the Israelis behind America's back to try and keep it anyway.

    Alternatively, there is Social Credit, which would turn everyone into a capitalist rather than implement true socialism by essentially printing money and dispersing it equally as a citizen's dividend, enabling them to engage in entrepreneurial activity and growing the economy at a rate higher than that of the return on capital, which would lead away from wealth consolidation.

    [–]chunkypants -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    See Suez Crisis where Nasser...

    Huh? How's this related?

    enabling them to engage in entrepreneurial activity and growing the economy at a rate higher than that of the return on capital, which would lead away from wealth consolidation

    Printing money is stealing wealth from people who have savings. Printing lots of it will wreck your economy really fast.

    Under Social Credit, do people get to own the business they start? Can they sell shares to other people, but not give it away to workers? If so, that's not socialism.

    [–]Chicken2nite 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    Damn firefox eating my reply... Aparently ctr+arrow is to skip from word to word while alt+arrow send you back and forward. Let's try again, shall we?

    Huh? How's this related?

    Nasser proposed nationalizing the Suez Canal Company to fund the startup of a state owned electrical company rather than have to depend on foreign investment which would come with both strings attached and interest payments. Considering this was the 50's and Egypt was still a colonial backwater as it had/has been for more than two millennia, a modern power grid would provide the backbone for the 'means of production' as much as anything else would. While not outright socialism in itself, it is certainly more akin to a mixed economy (ala Canada) rather than a free enterprise one (ala USA) and was used as pretext for the British and French both crying Red to Eisenhower.

    Printing money is stealing wealth from people who have savings. Printing lots of it will wreck your economy really fast.

    Yes, yes, a simple citizen's dividend would be a backdoor tax on wealth and taxation is theft and et cetera et cetera. There is more too it than that to prevent hyperinflation which may or may not work which essentially amounts to buying goods at an inflated price and selling it at a subsidized one, which seems kind of iffy as to whether it would actually pay off.

    Essentially you've summed up the potential downfall for which Gary North spends either 55 minutes out of an hour or 299 pages out of 300 (presumably, I gave up after the first 20 pages) engaging in sophistry against misguided compassionate Christians. Thomas Paine proposed paying for a basic income by taxing intergenerational inheritance and Milton Friedman proposed taxing sales, which others criticize as being regressive, although I would think that a sufficient UBI/NIT could overcome its impact.

    Under Social Credit, do people get to own the business they start?

    afaik

    Can they sell shares to other people, but not give it away to workers?

    I don't understand the question, nor its relevance. There's nothing inherently preventing you from giving your employees shares in the company in capitalism, even under the current rules in the USA afaik (72 owners before you have to file with the SEC iirc from the Facebook IPO news). Again, there wouldn't be anything inherently stopping you from selling shares nor bonds, although the rate of interest would probably be less as there would be more people in a position of saving money (in theory, depending on what would happen with wages assuming that there is no wage floor).

    If so, that's not socialism.

    I didn't mean to say that it would be, hence me starting off with the word alternatively. Sorry if that wasn't clear. When I asked /r/asksocialscience someone did dismiss it as socialism, although I didn't bother to engage and correct him on it.

    I would describe it as being closer to the Star Trek utopia, where people can own a business (Sisko's, the Picard winery) but it is mostly a post-scarcity economy. It was actually an idea that Robert A Heinlein felt strongly enough about in his young adulthood that he wrote an unpublished book on a 21st century world (For Us, The Living [1938]) where it was put into practice, even though he was a libertarian.

    I would think the real trick would be the same that we are going to have to deal with anyways, that is managing our nonrenewable resources and natural capital which will continue to be used up so long as there is an incentive to do so, although with an economy being managed strictly through monetary policy those resources reflect the only drain on the system whereas with our current monetary system it would be interest with the cost of the nonrenewables being largely ignored/externalized. Currently, money cannot be truly created or destroyed outside of the central bank with the exception of the earning of interest on loans (all other debits are matched somewhere in the system with a credit).

    [–]chunkypants 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Yes, yes, a simple citizen's dividend would be a backdoor tax on wealth

    You're scoffing at it, but its true. I'm depending on the money in my 401k to have value when I retire. I worked really hard to save it and opted to not buy many, many things instead. When you print more dollars but don't increase the amount of goods and services available, you're eroding the value of what I have. You're taking a portion of my life away from me. Because I now have to work more years to replace what was eroded away. That's really unjust.

    I don't understand the question, nor its relevance.

    Can I voluntarily sell shares to people, but not be required to give shares to employees without payment? Basically what businesses do now.

    I'm not familiar with the nuts and bolts of a co-op, but I assume you get a fraction of ownership when you start working. Capitalist companies don't give you equity just because you are an employee.

    that is managing our nonrenewable resources and natural capital

    I agree. The only one that matters is oil. We would literally be living in huts without it. Oil is finite, but I'm optimistic human ingenuity isn't. Some smart guy will get rich off solving that problem (maybe Elon Musk). Having a system that richly rewards extraordinary talent is required. Guys like Elon Musk come here because they can profit from their talents.

    [–]Chicken2nite 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    I'm depending on the money in my 401k to have value when I retire.

    While I can certainly sympathize with such a problem, one of the benefits of a BIG/NIT or citizen's dividend funded through printing money is that it is essentially social security for all so that you wouldn't have to depend on the money in your 401k in order to live when you retire, and people just starting out wouldn't have to borrow money in order to life when they go to school. How big of a 401k would you need to be able to buy an inflation adjusted 30 year $15k perpetuity?

    Piketty proposed a wealth tax for those with over x million dollars, although I'm not sure how feasible that would be given that there are those who make a living specifically hiding that amount of wealth and many others who make a living ensuring that their wealth will survive seizure from any government, be it in a trust or whatever else. If you were able to make SoCred/Citizen's Dividend work as a backdoor tax on wealth without simply making everything more expensive (ie. inflation) then I would think it would be a necessary evil to shrink the size of your 401k and the value of your home in order to make successive generations able to afford to buy a home or get an education without having to live their lives in debt.

    Can I voluntarily sell shares to people, but not be required to give shares to employees without payment? Basically what businesses do now.

    Ah, that's different from what you said:

    Can they sell shares to other people, but not give it away to workers?

    You can give your employees shares of your business. No one is stopping you from doing so. You aren't forced to do so, though, and doing so would count as compensation under current law and thus it would be taxable income afaik.

    There is a co op coffee shop in Winnipeg that is named after a town in Spain which is the name of the co-op which runs essentially every business in the town. At the co op coffee shop in Winnipeg, they pay slightly more than the market rate ($15/hr when the minimum wage was $10 I think). Restaurants don't tend to make good coops though due I would assume to a transitory worker pool.

    There is a Co-Op gas station chain in Manitoba which is a customer co op where instead of getting a discount at the pump ala Petro-Canada with the card, you get a lump sum at the end of the year based on how much you and everyone else bought. I would think that this would be somewhat similar to what a worker based co op would be where a portion of the profit would be split amongst the workers, which is not unlike what happens with the Christmas bonus at my job where it is split evenly amongst the full and part-time staff, although again that is entirely voluntary on the part of the employer.

    The only one that matters is oil.

    I disagree. Currently, still half of the electricity generated in the USA (with Alberta not far behind) is produced by coal. Meanwhile, natural gas is fracking everywhere, pardon the Farscape (edit) Battlestar Galactica (/edit) pun.

    Also, there is the potential for Thorium, although I admit I might have been sold a bill of goods, although my boss who is a nuclear physicist by trade doesn't seem to think so. The main drawback to adoption of nuclear power (and Thorium having the added uphill battle of there being fewer people trained in its adoption and being tested at scale) is the political will to do so.

    Oil is finite, but I'm optimistic human ingenuity isn't.

    I would recommend the Massey lecture series A Short History of Progress which was turned into a subpar talking head documentary (subpar in that it consists of a bunch of talking head experts telling you essentially the same thing) that delves into the history of humanity and how everytime we find a new resource, we get to the point where we exploit it so efficiently that it gets used up, usually leading to a crash. It's region locked I'm pretty sure, but there are ways to fake a Canadian ip.

    iirc, we should've crashed about a century or so ago except we found how to use oil and so we're being taken on a bit of a ride. In my opinion, the reason oil is so important in everything we do is because it's what we are currently exploiting. While we would have trouble adapting to something else, something else could and would fill the void. The way oil/plastic is so prevalent in everything to me reminds me of how the Native Americans of the prairies would utilize every part of the buffalo.

    Meanwhile, we're throwing the planet for a bit of a loop by tossing all of the carbon and methane (I've not seen numbers, but I'm sure there are record population numbers for cows, pigs and chickens now than ever before) which hopefully won't end up making it impossible to grow food.

    Also, Natural Capital is more than just nonrenewables and also includes the renewables that need to be shepherded so that they do renew, the most important of which would be potable water, without which we would have bigger problems than living in huts. Luckily we're apparently developing shit like solar powered moisture vaporator billboards, so perhaps there is hope.

    Some smart guy will get rich off solving that problem (maybe Elon Musk). Having a system that richly rewards extraordinary talent is required. Guys like Elon Musk come here because they can profit from their talents.

    Which is why I'm not an absolute Leveller/egalitarian and am instead in favor of a "floor below which no one is allowed to fall" as either Milton Friedman or FA Hayek would say. A modest wealth tax coupled with a sales tax to pay for it is fine by me. There were plenty of rich folk making money on ingenuity under a 90% top marginal rate, so I don't really see a problem with taxing wealth in order to prevent the consolidation of wealth over time.

    The one example that I brought up that I came across back in university when studying the classics was Athens and Sparta. Athens had the same issue Rome had centuries later, where wealth consolidated into fewer hands, although with Rome it had to do with politically connected families getting large plots of land won by the Roman soldiers.

    In Athens, farmers would borrow money to plant next year's crop and if the harvest was bad, they might not only lose their land, but their 'person,' meaning they would become the slave of the lender and would then essentially have to work their land for the person who lent them the money. In Sparta, it was different. There, the Spartiates would terrorize the helots (part of their coming of age ritual would be killing some of them) into working the land for them. Unlike anywhere else in the world at the time, though, land would not only be inherited by the men, but also by the women. This would be the main reason in my opinion compounded by the men constantly being sent to war that the number of Spartiates would dwindle over the centuries to a number in the hundreds instead of the thousands it had been, where wealth was allowed to consolidate in a class which could only engage in an activity (equestrian sport) that was useless to the economy (fighting wars, terrorizing slaves).

    Anyways, Athens managed to reform. They recognized they had a problem and that they were incapable of fixing it with the current system. So, they appointed Solon to come up with a solution. The arrangement was such that Solon wouldn't live in Athens during the time, so he had no chance to personally benefit from the result, and the Athenians wouldn't be able to change anything until after ten years, so that the reform would be allowed to take hold. Essentially, debt on your person was banned, a limit on the size of your land (wealth, really, in the classical era) was enacted so that you and your family and some workers/slaves could manage it instead of huge sprawling estates, and anyone who was a debt-slave would be freed and their land returned if they could reasonably prove that it had been there's in order to reverse the damage done to the landowning class. Landowning farmers, after all, were the ones who would be called upon when the polis/city-state went to war, and the more fighters the better their chances.

    In a similar sense, I would say that by educating as many people in the world as possible by providing them with the means to worry about greater issues than their day to day survival, we would further our chances of developing the next Albert Einstein, Henry Ford, Elon Musk or Sergei Korolev.

    [–]Gonzzzo 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    The idea that any nation in the world will ever be (or currently is) purely "socialist", "communist", or "capitalist" is ridiculous

    Every major country in the world is using a mix of everything that works best & then calling it whatever fits best politically. I once heard a story a year or two ago where somebody asked a Chinese official about their countries recent implementation of more capitalist economic policy...and the official replied "We'll use whatever works & we'll call it communism"

    In the 90's, Russia adapted more capitalist policies on top of their already-existing policies...more recently, China did the same...they're neither "communist" or "capitalist", but using varying degrees of both ideologies where they're best applied, accordingly...

    In terms of something more tangible - healthcare - Britain has nationalized/state-run healthcare, Canada has socialist healthcare, and France has a combination of the two - You're kidding yourself if you'd call any of these nations "nationalized" or "socialist" --- And it's easily within the realm of possibilities for the U.S. to adapt the best of all 3 (in terms of healthcare) without completely altering our entire economy into something completely new.

    It cannot be run democratically.

    Uh, this is completely false - Tell that to Groupon & Hulu

    There are many very successful democratic-companies in the world today, with a lot popping up or converting in the U.S. after the 08 collapse - http://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-it-pays-to-run-your-company-democratically/

    Yesterday, WorldBlu released its fifth annual list of the world's Most Democratic Workplaces, with Groupon and Hulu as notable additions to the growing community, which also includes Zappos, Great Harvest Bread Company, Orpheus Chamber Orchestra, and others. This year, says WorldBlu CEO Traci Fenton, there are 52 companies from 55 countries on the list with total revenues of $15 billion compared to $3 billion five years ago. "You usually don't equate fast growth with democracy," says Fenton. "People think of democracy as slow and cumbersome. What they don't understand is that it can be that way when you're getting people aligned, but after you build a collective brain trust, you're able to move very rapidly."

    This is from 2011, and groupon has had some short comings in the last year or so (resulting from very non-democratic practices/scheming from it's top employees), but before that, Groupon was widely considered to be the most wildly successful growth company ever - A democratically run company - And Hulu is currently doing better than ever - A democratically run company...and there are many, many more examples I could give which 'democracy in business' = success. Not to mention what is does for the workers in those companies (giving all employees an equal vote in deciding the company's future, a small number of top employees can't exactly vote to give themselves raises/bonuses in that type of work environment...at least not without every other worker in the company thinking they're an asshole for it)

    [–]AccountHaver25 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Socialism is the idea that the means of production should be owned by the workers of a place that produces stuff. Since a lot of socialists would advocate everything in the business especially the means of production should be worker owned. I will discuss that idea.

    There are multiple ways for socialism to be the dominant model of business. You could boycott capitalist businesses in favor of socialist co-operatives. Buyouts are possible too.

    The reason socialism has failed is because people tried to make it a state ideology. Socialism is not a state ideology, it is an economic ideology.

    The movement of people trying to implant socialism as an economic system hasn't been that big. It takes a huge organized effort to establish a new economic system and socialism hasn't had one. If socialists stopped pretending socialism is a state movement there probably would be such an organized movement.

    Isn't that what is already happening even in a capitalist system? One person's labor will still benefit the business as a whole. We all share and help each other especially if it is in our self-interest.

    There are two solutions. Computers have made running a business a whole lot easier. Also, you aren't doing it alone. You will have the help of the other workers. It is a group assignment.

    [–]science_afficionado [score hidden]

    No socialist I've ever met proposed buyouts.

    Perhaps not the ones you've met.

    But FWIW, when Chilean socialists elected to power in the 1970s nationalized key sectors of their economy by buying properties for their stated tax values, the US government responded with economic sanctions, CIA skulduggery, and by supporting a coup d'etat and backing a fascist dictatorship which filled soccer stadiums up with people and tortured and murdered tens of thousands of people.

    [–]greg_lw [score hidden]

    There is no way to get from where we are to there. Means of production isn't communally owed now, and there's no way to make it except to take it from the people who made it. No socialist I've ever met proposed buyouts.

    oh, I got your buyout right here

    [–]Matt5327 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    I think you're making the assumption that socialism necessitates a change in the means of production. This would be true if we assumed Marxist Socialism and its child philosophies, but the term was coined to mean nothing more than the opposite of "individualism" before he came into the picture.

    There are a good many branches of socialism - most inspired at least in part by Marx, admittedly - but others take a vastly different approach. Just as one example, take Ethical Socialism. Especially if we take Thomas Green's approach, making the appropriate changes is not at all difficult. Communities decide to support local small businesses instead of large ones. Cities build public housing for unable to afford private property. And only when things cannot be handled by the smaller units by their nature (like health care), does the state (a state if referring to the USA) act instead.

    This is a rough and quick overview, I'll admit (I just started studying Green recently). As it stands, however, this version of socialism is highly implementable if enough people are willing.

    [–]chunkypants 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    We already do a lot of those things. I'm not willing, nor would I ever be willing to give up my property nor control of my work or earnings to the collective.
    You bring up a good point about socialism. Its impossible to say what definitively is or isn't socialist. We could have a revolution led by "ethical socialists", only to then have the Stalinists or the Maoists take over.

    [–]Matt5327 [score hidden]

    We do indeed (though certainly not quite to the extent Ethical Socialists would desire). But my point is that it is indeed still considered a branch of Socialism, and that implementation is still practical (if unlikely).

    [–]Cttam 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    There is no way to get from where we are to there.

    There are actually two ways, both with pros and cons. Reform and revolution.

    Its obviously difficult to implement.

    And therefore, not worth trying?

    So far, 100% of the time someone has tried, it ended in disaster

    Many of those 'disasters' were either not even socialist (National Socialism) (North Korea), were betrayed (USSR) ( a few elements of Cuba I'm uncomfortable with), or suffered from counter revolutionary activity and yet still managed to function extremely well in many areas (Paris Commune) (Revolutionary Catalonia) (today: Cuba - despite, as I said, some issues).

    Socialism isn't productive. If it was, some socialist style co-op with 100% pure workplace democracy would have out-competed WalMart and McDonalds.

    These companies 'do well' only in respect to our warped view of what constitutes as success. They also achieve it through awful exploitation. Co-ops are generally small and are difficult to set up in some places. When comparing them to other small businesses that serve as genuine direct equivalents, Co-ops actually function better in many ways.

    People don't like being forced to cooperate. We're tribal and we don't agree on anything. Suspicious of outsiders and not inclined to give them the fruits of our labor, especially if they're lazy. Humans are not bees in a hive.

    If you don't like giving up the fruits of your labour... Guess what! Socialism is for you! Capitalism is the system actually robbing you of that. Socialism has a lot of good ideas about reward for effort, including 'For each according to their contribution'.

    Businesses have many different roles. Not everyone should have input in which capital expenditure to make, or which contract to pursue. Frankly most people aren't cut out for the stress of running a business and managing people. Its really hard. I've done it. It cannot be run democratically.

    No one is saying people with no expertise in a certain area absolutely have to have a say in how those decisions are handled. In this case, the workers would simply elect directly recall-able administrators who democratically represent the interest of the entire staff. You can still have managers and so on.

    Frankly, socialism to me is just some 19th century philosopher's writings. It hasn't ever worked in practice. Certainly not on the scale of the US. Its enticing to read about, but it can't work.

    Are you talking about Marx? Socialism predates Marx...

    I would argue that it hasn't ever truly been attempted properly! Pretty difficult for it to work in practice when we don't give it a chance.

    [–]LeftExtremist 7 ポイント8 ポイント

    People bitch about our democracy being broken all the time, why the fuck would we entrust our livelihoods to a flawed system? Second, you have to be a fucking idiot to still believe that embracing socialism through the state will some how lead to a fantasy stateless utopia that Marx talked about. If you want socialism, resist government expansion at every point even if that means aligning with the borgeuise and share your surplus with other socialist individuals champ

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] [score hidden]

    People bitch about our democracy being broken all the time, why the fuck would we entrust our livelihoods to a flawed system?

    No one said that democracy is perfect, only that it is a better system than monarchy or totalitarianism, would you not agree?

    Second, you have to be a fucking idiot to still believe that embracing socialism through the state will some how lead to a fantasy stateless utopia that Marx talked about. If you want socialism, resist government expansion at every point even if that means aligning with the borgeuise and share your surplus with other socialist individuals champ

    The argument is not about fantasy stateless utopia's and whether or not they can exist, what I am arguing is that democracy is a better system of organization than totalitarianism.

    [–]Rayc31415 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Some people see the government as the biggest threat to our freedoms, and so try to rein it in. Others see corporations as the biggest threat, and try to give government the power to rein in the corporations. This give and take of power from the government basically cancels out each other, leaving no protection for our freedoms from either...

    [–]righthandoftyr 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    Because there nothing preventing it from happening now. There is exactly no reason that such a company can exist now...and yet hardly anyone organizes that way. People have the option right now and don't take it, so forcing the issue with some kind of political or socioeconomic reform would be the exact opposite of democracy. Why not socialism? Because by and large people don't want it. If you want socialism, go have it. Right now. Nothing at all is stopping you. Get together with others and start your own corporations. More power too you. All I ask is that the socialists of the world quit trying to badger everyone else into doing it with them. Seriously, they're like the economic equivalent of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    [–]chewingofthecud [score hidden]

    As a right-libertarian, I have no problems with socialism... as long as its voluntary. In other words, if a group of people want to start a business and allow the workers 100% control, I am all for that.

    One of the reasons I prefer capitalism as an economic model, is that this type of socialist arrangement can exist within it, whereas the reverse is not true. The thing is, you don't see this type of business flourish, not because there is something inherently violent or unethical about capitalism, but because a business model where the workers control and preside over the company is a demonstrably less successful business model. Giving such control over to people who are experts in management, logistics etc. is just a far superior arrangement, for obvious reasons (see: division of labour). The syndicalist business model just can't compete and so these companies go under, grow to only a limited extent or are bought out by larger rivals.

    Marx knew what he was talking about in at least one respect - the only way to make the socialist model work in the long term, is to abolish private property. My guess is that if that were really to happen in reality, most people here would not make it past day one before they incite a revolution, even if they currently allow themseves to entertain the idea in principle.

    [–]Mojammer [score hidden]

    The free rider problem. When you own something yourself you take good care of it, invest in it to make the most of it in the long run. When a community owns something everyone tries to get as much out of it as they can without putting into it what is required to maintain it. Community controlled production would be far less productive than the worst market-based economy.

    Also people talk up the positives of democracy but I think democracy is the least important element of the western world. The number one source of modern prosperity is property rights being more strictly enforced than ever before. And the number one source of liberty is a constitutionally limited government. Democracy rates below both of those in importance.

    [–]jk54321 5 ポイント6 ポイント

    Socialism entails a restriction on private property, freely fluctuating prices, and profits/losses. Without all three of these, one cannot engage in the economic calculation necessary to efficiently engage in production; socialism is tantamount to flying blind. As such, resources are wasted on unproductive activities and wealth is destroyed.

    [–]Dave1962 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    IMO, it is part of human nature to value ourselves, our friends and our loved ones more than complete strangers. Dunbar's number suggests that our brain's physiology limits our ability to form stable social relationships with more than a couple hundred people (~100 - 250). So, by nature, we're more inclined to act tribally than nationally or globally. Biologically, I am predisposed to work harder to provide my children with better clothing, food, or a college education because I want my genes to prosper and make it into the next generation. Since we live in a world of scarcity, it makes no sense for me to give the product of my efforts to competitors.

    Capitalism works in concert with human nature while socialism works against it: Ayn Rand said it well, "America’s abundance was created not by public sacrifices to ‘the common good,’ but by the productive genius of free men who pursued their own personal interests and the making of their own private fortunes. They did not starve the people to pay for America’s industrialization. They gave the people better jobs, higher wages and cheaper goods with every new machine they invented, with every scientific discovery or technological advance—and thus the whole country was moving forward and profiting, not suffering, every step of the way," but Adam Smith said it better, “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.” A man will work much harder to take care of himself, his family and his friends than he will to make money for the state, which will then waste most of it before redistributing it to people who aren't working as hard as the man who earned it in the first place.

    "We're all in this together?" Isn't that what Socialism is all about? I suggest you read what happened at the 20th Century Motor Company when they tried that.

    [–]AncapPerson 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    I suggest you read what happened at the 20th Century Motor Company when they tried that.

    Can you link to some information? All I can find is a wikipedia article about a con-artist that got a sex change started up a business, tricked some investors in to giving her money, and going in to hiding.

    If you want examples of worker-owned/managed co-ops that are prospering, there are plenty...

    Mondragon corporation
    Zapatista coffee cooperatives
    Forja auto plant
    Crimethink

    as well as many others.

    Edit: Also, socialism isn't necessarily at odds with markets, just capitalism.

    [–]Dave1962 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Also, socialism isn't necessarily at odds with markets, just capitalism.

    I disagree because a market is based on competition (and therefore, ability); the better product or better price wins, and results in a better allocation of resources.

    Socialism's philosophical base is collectivism & altruism, while capitalism's philosophical base is individualism & egoism. Under the system that you're promoting, ability is not the "coin of the realm", need is.

    Here's an excerpt that explains what happens to people when need is emphasized over ability:

    “We’re all one big family, they told us, we’re all in this together. But you don’t all stand working an acetylene torch ten hours a day – together, and you don’t all get a bellyache – together. What’s whose ability and which of whose needs comes first? When it’s all one pot, you can’t let any man decide what his own needs are, can you? If you did, he might claim that he needs a yacht – and if his feelings are all you have to go by, he might prove it, too. Why not? If it’s not right for me to own a car until I’ve worked myself into a hospital ward, earning a car for every loafer and every naked savage on earth – why can’t he demand a yacht from me, too, if I still have the ability not to have collapsed? No? He can’t? Then why can he demand that I go without cream for my coffee until he’s replastered his living room? … Oh well … Well, anyway, it was decided that nobody had the right to judge his own need or ability. We voted on it. Yes, ma’am, we voted on it in a public meeting twice a year. How else could it be done? Do you care to think what would happen at such a meeting? It took us just one meeting to discover that we had become beggars – rotten, whining, sniveling beggars, all of us, because no man could claim his pay as his rightful earning, he had no rights and no earnings, his work didn’t belong to him, it belonged to ‘the family’, and they owed him nothing in return, and the only claim he had on them was his ‘need’ – so he had to beg in public for relief from his needs, like any lousy moocher, listing all his troubles and miseries, down to his patched drawers and his wife’s head colds, hoping that ‘the family’ would throw him the alms. He had to claim miseries, because it’s miseries, not work, that had become the coin of the realm – so it turned into a contest between six thousand panhandlers, each claiming that his need was worse than his brother’s. How else could it be done? Do you care to guess what happened, what sort of men kept quiet, feeling shame, and what sort got away with the jackpot?"

    [–]AncapPerson 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    I disagree because a market is based on competition (and therefore, ability); the better product or better price wins, and results in a better allocation of resources.

    Markets are a system of allocation based on exchange.

    Capitalism and socialism are systems of ownership.

    Capitalism uses absentee property, enforced by the state or an entity that serves the same functions('private security'), as its main form of ownership. Socialism sees absentee property as illegitimate due to its parasitic and derivative depriving nature and, therefore, uses personal property(ownership based on occupancy and/or utility) as its main form of ownership.

    How exactly do those two conflict one another?

    Also, market socialism.

    [–]Dave1962 [score hidden]

    I'm not interested in a conversation related to the myriad definitions related to the exact classifications of the different types of economic models.

    I don't consider the concept of "absentee ownership", as defined by collectivists, legitimate. If I own something, then I own it, whether I am physically present in the same geographic location or not. This includes the "means of production".

    Nor do I accept the collectivist definition of the "parasitic" relationship between an "absentee owner" of a factory and the "wage slavery" that results in someone working for him. Since working at someone else's factory raises my level of productivity by a factor of 1000 (for example) it's perfectly legitimate for the owner to extract some percentage of that wealth since it is with his help that I'm producing that much, rather than my level of production being based on my level of physical or mental effort alone.

    IMO, the idea that some retiree is a capitalist because their income includes dividend income from a company that they are "absent" from, while someone like Elon Musk isn't a capitalist because he actually shows up for meetings at the companies that he owns is ridiculous.

    [–]mathurin1911 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Combining democracy with socialism will be a nightmare, because the people cannot make up their minds or make good decisions, but the politicians will pander to them to get their votes anyway.

    You will end up with a nation that treats its people like children, providing for their needs while they expend the rest of their resources on toys and fun.

    I am not a child to be coddled and protected from my own decisions.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント

    Combining democracy with socialism will be a nightmare, because the people cannot make up their minds or make good decisions, but the politicians will pander to them to get their votes anyway.

    I ask you then, why haven't democracies all around the world crumbled and collapsed if people are incapable of making practical decisions democratically.

    [–]mathurin1911 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    I ask you then, why haven't democracies all around the world crumbled and collapsed if people are incapable of making practical decisions democratically.

    Because their ability to make business decisions is usually limited by property rights. They cannot demand free pudding Wednesday because the government doesnt make pudding. At least until government is granted too much control over private property and they can just take their free pudding.

    Even then, in all reality, have you looked around, because they kinda are crumbling, they manage to stumble on because their leaders manage to keep the nations within their constraints despite the will of the people.

    [–]Worstdriver -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Canada.

    We are a far better country because one of our three major political parties is a socialist party. They've never run the country but they often influence policy.

    [–]zoidberg1339 4 ポイント5 ポイント

    I think much of Canada's success is due to the fact that the Socialists haven't ever had a chance to run the country.

    [–]Worstdriver 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Likely. However, they make a truly excellent party in opposition to the government of the day. If we didn't have the NDP and its precursors we would just be 'America Lite' today.

    [–]Chicken2nite 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Combining democracy with socialism will be a nightmare, because the people cannot make up their minds or make good decisions, but the politicians will pander to them to get their votes anyway.

    There's no reason why the current democratic structure would need to be retained. You could have election by lot (sortition) where representatives are chosen at random rather than having to pander for votes.

    [–]Rayc31415 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Home solar panels/heating, 3D printers, hydroponics, rain barrels. Cut the nasty politics out and just give everyone the means of production. Once everyone is self-sustaining, the rest of things people want is just access to information (wikipedia?) and egotistical control of other peoples lives and/or freedom from control by other people.

    [–]DevonWeeks [score hidden]

    I have no beef with socialism as general concept. For that matter, I don't even have a problem with socialsim in practice, at least the limited sense. Socialism is simply an opposite to capitalism. Capitalism is the private ownership of the means of production. Socialism is the public ownership of the means of production. I can see a place for both. In most cases, I think capitalism serves people better. If I invent something new, let's say a new type of wall hangar that doesn't require nails and doesn't mark up your walls, why should society own the means of production for that good? I think if I invented that, then I should own it. I should be able to produce it and profit from it.

    Now, what about socialism? I think socialism has its place when society has a compelling interest in owning the means of production of a product. One example that immediately comes to mind is drug production. If there is a wildly successful new drug that essentially cures Alzheimers, yes, I think the inventor(s) should be compensated, substantially. But, going forward, I think society has a compelling interest in producing that drug for the general good of the population. I think it's more than reasonable to pay the original individual or team for their discovery, time, and efforts. I'd want to pay them well, to the tune of millions! But, after they are paid, I think it's time to take the drug and produce it in sufficient capacity to address the problem society has with Alzheimers. I think generics of the drug should face little or no barrier to producing it. That's a case where I think there is an obvious public interest and an area where I could see using some socialist elements to better the nation.

    So, I think both systems have their merits. For general goods and services, most things in life, I think capitalism works best. I ought to be able to wake up one day and decide to invent something then succeed or fail base on the merits of my idea. I should own my invention and the means of producing it. But, when there is a compelling public interest, I can see the benefits of a socialst approach. There's no reason for society to own the means of producing my family brownie recipe, none whatsoever. I should be able to produce that and sell it for whatever the market will bear. If I invent the magic pill that stops obesity and eliminates diabetes, society should certainly compensate me well for the discovery, but as for owning further production, I can understand it being owned publicly.

    The question is this. Why must a society be exclusively one or the other? Why do people approach the conversation as though a mixed economy isn't a real thing or that it's impossible to conceptualize one that works well? If anything, I think something like a 70/30 capitalism/socialism type of economy would stand the potential to give you the best of both worlds and the opportunity to mitigate the worst of both reasonably well. As for tyrants, systems are not defined by their abusers, as I've said in here several times. We should not discuss them in that way.

    [–]ali__baba -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

    Having the janitor have the same amount of say as the CEO seems to not be the best way to run a company....Or an economy.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 14 ポイント15 ポイント

    That's not what socialism is. The Mondragon corporation, which is democratically controlled by workers has around a 5:1 pay ratio for the average worker and the highest payed employees.

    [–]ali__baba 9 ポイント10 ポイント

    The Mondragon corporation, which is democratically controlled by workers has around a 5:1 pay ratio for the average worker and the highest payed employees.

    I wasn't commenting on the pay ratio. I was commenting on the notion that the janitor has as much say as the CEO in company decisions.

    And virtually nobody has a problem with companies who voluntarily choose to organize themselves in a socialist fashion.

    [–]DeShawnThordason 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    What about subcontracting? If the worker-owned widget-making company outsources its janitorial needs, to a worker-owned janitorial services company, that could work, right?

    [–]noziky 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Don't both the widget-making company and the janitorial services company also need / have CEOs?

    The widget makers know how to make widgets and the janitors know how to clean, but do the workers in the widget factory know how to negotiate a contract with the janitorial subcontractor? Or make the determination whether it's better to have in-hour janitors or contact out to a janitorial subcontractor?

    [–]ali__baba -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Sure...Subcontracting out all labor isn't effectively different than just hiring the person to begin with in this regard.

    [–]DeShawnThordason 5 ポイント6 ポイント

    Isn't it though? In a socialist factory, each worker has a say in the company, but the janitors don't work for the factory, they work for the janitorial company. So the janitors have an equal say in their own company, but none at the factory.

    That way the widget-makers could lock out of decision-making the people who aren't directly involved in the production. Like some sort of market socialism.

    [–]psychicsword 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    The janitorial company would still have CEOs and management. They have people who know how to negotiate contracts but don't actually clean. The only way you can truly merge all those roles is if you have everyone in the company do primarily cleaning and be trained in all aspects of the company(terrible waste of skills and time) or have 1 person organizations which kind of what an employee acts like under a capitalist system.

    [–]urnbabyurn 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    That's like saying renting a house is the same as buying it.

    Or that buying a cake is the same as buying sugar, flour and eggs.

    The whole Marxist critique of capitalism is that workers are alienated from their production, and thus are not the residual claimants to the Surplus of production.

    [–]yoda133113 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    That's like saying renting a house is the same as buying it.

    No, it's not.

    What's he's saying is that hiring a group of people as a sub-contractor that doesn't own the company isn't really different from hiring a bunch of individuals as employees that don't own the company. Either way, you're paying someone for work, and they don't own the company.

    [–]urnbabyurn -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Yes, but who owns the capital used in production? Who is the residual claimant to the returns?

    [–]yoda133113 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    In both cases...not the janitors.

    [–]urnbabyurn 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    If janitors are independent contractors, they are residual claimant.

    [–]ali__baba [score hidden]

    That's like saying renting a house is the same as buying it.

    If we were arguing that people shouldn't live in houses.

    Or that buying a cake is the same as buying sugar, flour and eggs.

    I don't follow the comparison. Could you explain more? I don't see how what I wrote is similar to that at all.

    The whole Marxist critique of capitalism is that workers are alienated from their production, and thus are not the residual claimants to the Surplus of production.

    Yea...Being a worker or "contractor" doesn't really make a relevant distinction in this instance.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Well if you did it in a representative form of democracy he wouldn't. Either way what's wrong with a janitor having a vote? The workplace is where he spends a significant amount of his time after all.

    [–]ali__baba 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Well if you did it in a representative form of democracy he wouldn't.

    You would just get a similar problem.

    Either way what's wrong with a janitor having a vote?

    Nothing really is "wrong" with it. Giving him the same amount of power as the CEO just seems to be an ineffective way to run a company. Save, Good Will Hunting.

    [–]griff-labarum 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    He doesn't have as much of a stake as an owner who has put his whole life's savings into the company to start it from scratch. And in your system, that man is robbed of his property.

    [–]Dave1962 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    ali_baba was speaking about the janitor's and CEO's respective SAY, not PAY. Don't the janitor and the CEO each have a single vote when it comes time for the workers to make decisions regarding how the business should be operated? What makes the janitor as qualified as the CEO to make complex business decisions?

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    He wouldn't make complex business decisions, he would elect people who made sure his interests were considered. Kinda of like democratic countries elect politicians to represent them.

    [–]Dave1962 5 ポイント6 ポイント

    Wouldn't that result in the best politician (most convincing, smoothest talker) being installed as CEO, rather than the best businessman?

    Just how much weight does a worker's vote carry? Does the democracy extend to entire industries, rather than just within companies? Why or why not? What happens if the majority of the people within a company vote themselves raises to the exclusion of competing business interests because they're more interested in short term gain? After all, what's to stop them from doing so, since they have the majority?

    Also, wouldn't the smarter, harder working, more business savvy people tend to group together and form their own companies to compete against the lesser qualified companies? What happens to those less qualified people when their company is unable to compete against the more capable companies? Or, is the entire industry going to vote and decide which companies are allowed to succeed and which aren't?

    Since business decisions are made according to political considerations (popularity), rather than economic ones, why won't all aspects of productive capacity (product amounts, quality, efficiency of operations, etc.) be reduced?

    [–]noziky 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    How is that any different than the current system where the stock holders of a company vote for the board of directors? Do you just want the employees to vote rather than the shareholders?

    At many companies, the employees have enough money to buy the company or at least a substantial portion of it, they just want to diversity their investments. Having all of your savings and retirement portfolio invested in the company where you work is a really bad idea. If the company goes under, you're not only out of a job, but you've also lost all of your savings.

    [–]mathurin1911 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Because of my best friend in High school.

    He didnt show up often enough and dropped out, got a GED and started college, which he didnt show up for and dropped out, then he started mechanic school, which he didnt show up for and dropped out of, then he got a decent industrial labor job, but got fired when he didnt show up.

    In a just world those people end up in menial service jobs that remind other people why working hard is important. They usually wind up as socialists of some sort, (I know he did) but mainly because they are lazy and want something for nothing.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 6 ポイント7 ポイント

    If you're lazy in a socialist society you can still be fired, the government will not pamper you, you still have to work. You're confusing socialism with social democracy.

    [–]mathurin1911 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    If you're lazy in a socialist society you can still be fired, the government will not pamper you, you still have to work. You're confusing socialism with social democracy.

    Or, rather, with a welfare state (may be the same thing), they always call themselves socialist so its hard to remember they arent really.

    [–]Loco970 5 ポイント6 ポイント

    Yeah welfare state and social democracy are the same thing.

    [–]Rayc31415 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    welfare state (may be the same thing)

    I think the primary problem is that no one has defined socialism. Most places that call them self socialist are normally Scandinavian luxury states or dictatorship where if someone points out that it isn't socialism, the dictator writes a book and say "well, it's really just mylastnameism"

    Just give everyone the means to produce whatever they want without buying it from the government or a multinational corp, and call it whatever -ism you like, but that is what I support.

    [–]noziky 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    You're confusing socialism with social democracy.

    Every socialist seems to have a slightly different definition of socialism. They're all similar and often start off with the same general ideas, but the specific implementations are all very different.

    [–]Iwakura_Lain 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    That's because socialism is as broad of an idea as any other political and economic philosophy.

    The idea that a person must work is the very core of the philosophy though. Anyone who tells you that people could just slack off not go to work under socialism has never read anything about it.

    [–]psychicsword 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Yea someone else defended the idea by saying the means of production wouldn't be collectively owned but then OP suggested that he supports government owned and managed. That once change would drastically change how this socialist plan would work.

    [–]noziky 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Exactly. Socialists want worker/employee owned/controlled companies, some of which exist already. Others want government or collective control of major industries.

    I've personally always been amused by the different groups different socialists want to control a company. I used to spend a bunch of time asking various socialists a bunch of specific questions about their proposed systems on reddit. Some insist a company/industry has to be run by the employees, others want everyone involved to have a say while others want everyone in country to have control.

    [–]OMGDidHeJust 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    The definition of socialism is rigid: worker control of the means of production. With that being said, socialism is compatible with a number of other ideologies, which is where you get a whole slew of different -isms and sectarian in-fighting. What you described in your last sentence ("everyone in [the world] to have control [of the means of production]") is also tenet of communism (which tends to focus more on the national global level), not just socialism (since, in theory, we're all workers contributing as much as we're capable of contributing based on our access to the means of production). Socialism, from the perspective of communists, is a transitional system that leads to communism which is a moneyless, classless global society where the means of production are controlled by the global community. Socialism and communism are related in the same way that squares and rectangles relate to one another. All squares are also rectangles, but not all rectangles are also squares. All communism is also socialism but not all socialism is also communism. I hope that clears some things up, I apologize if my formatting choices made this tough to read.

    [–]noziky 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    The definition of socialism is rigid: worker control of the means of production.

    That's fine, but it doesn't clarify which workers and which means of production. All workers controlling all means of production? Workers controlling the means of production they work with? Workers in a country controlling all of the means of production in that country?

    Even once you answer those questions, it's easy and relatively black and white when we're talking about a widget factory. But, what about something like a school or university? The teachers and professors are the workers, but would a socialist university mean that the students wouldn't have any input? Most socialists students at universities push for more student control over the decisions at the university, not less. However, students at a university are more analogous to the consumers, not the workers.

    I used to live in a town that had a co-op grocery store that was very popular for many of the socialists and far left people in town. For something like $50 or $100 a year (I forget the exact cost), you could become a member of the co-op which permitted you to shop there and to have a vote at the monthly co-op meetings where decisions about the store were made. In that case, it's not so much the workers at the store who control it as it is the customers.

    And then there is the question of what constitutes control. Do workers get to vote on decisions? Or do they get to elect the CEO and other executives and management who then make the decisions? If the workers have that kind of decision making power, do they need to own the company? If workers have to own the company, do all of them get to own equal shares or does their ownership share increase the longer they work there? Some of these kind of questions can conceivably be left up the company and not all of them have to be the same, but there has to be some kind of line about what makes it worker control.

    [–]cassander 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    ll. Seriously that's all it is, no mass murder, no restriction of freedoms, no gulags, no Orwellian dystopia, just democracy.

    Marx explicitly called for revolutionary terror in his writings, i.e. mass murder, gulags, and restrictions of freedom. So have many other socialists. Please stop denying this.

    [–]Iwakura_Lain 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    No he didn't. Cite it.

    [–]cassander 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    the very cannibalism of the counterrevolution will convince the nations that there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror.

    Neue Rheinische Zeitung No. 136

    We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

    Suppression of the Neue Rheinische Zeitung

    So please, stop apologizing for tyrants.

    [–]Iwakura_Lain 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Marx's 'The Victory of the Counter-Revolution in Vienna' is in reference to a bloody and brutal counter-revolution being carried out by the bourgeoisie during the Spring of 1848. Marx is saying that the only way to fight terrorism is with equal force, and he isn't wrong. That is not a writ of approval for mass murder, gulags, and restrictions of freedom.

    [–]cassander 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Marx's 'The Victory of the Counter-Revolution in Vienna' is in reference to a bloody and brutal counter-revolution being carried out by the bourgeoisie during the Spring of 1848.

    And? He is claiming that the counterrevolution will drive people to revolutionary terror, and that this is a good thing. He is gleeful at this prediction, not somber.

    Marx is saying that the only way to fight terrorism is with equal force, and he isn't wrong

    And you go and demonstrate my point by revealing how shallowly buried your own tyrannical streak is. The correct response to oppression is liberation, not oppression carried out in a different uniform. Revolutionary terror is never a good idea, under any circumstances.

    [–]Iwakura_Lain 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    I disagree. If it is war they want, then they shall have it. This applies to the past as much as it applies to the future. Civil wars end, and with them so does the violence.

    The goal is to avoid it, of course, but I wouldn't stand idly by while bourgeoisie insurgents chip away at progress.

    [–]cassander 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Great, more power too you and your delusions of power. Just stop claiming that marx never endorsed terror. He did, repeatedly and explicitly.

    [–]Iwakura_Lain 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Yeah, because saying that I would fight for something I believe in if there was a civil war with clear sides is totally a delusion of power.

    It takes one heck of a bias to read Marx's stance that one must respond to counter-revolutionary terror with equal force as an endorsement of mass murder and terror in general. You could read those same words by just about any other author in just about any other book about revolution, and you wouldn't come to the same conclusions.

    [–]cassander 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    It takes one heck of a bias to read Marx's stance that one must respond to counter-revolutionary terror with equal force as an endorsement of mass murder and terror in general

    If you truly believe that it takes bias to translate "when our turn comes we will not apologize for the terror" into a promise of revolutionary terror, then I cannot help you. Marx promised revolutionary terror, pure and simple, contrary to your original claim.

    You could read those same words by just about any other author in just about any other book about revolution, and you wouldn't come to the same conclusions.

    Feel free to quote me any other author who said "when our turn comes we will not apologize for the terror" and I will denounce him just as fiercely as I do marx.

    [–]Iwakura_Lain 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    All it takes is context to know you're wrong in your interpretation. Too bad most people don't have that, and can be more easily persuaded by your rhetoric.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] [score hidden]

    I am not obliged to endorse every word that escaped Marx's lips. I do not support calls of murder, terror, torture or any other kind of inhuman tyranny whether it be in the name of the "revolution" or not. That being said I still do believe that a democratic organization of the workplace is a better, fairer, more efficient system than the top down hierarchical system of capitalism.

    [–]Baxaxaxa [score hidden]

    Why is it that everytime you post it is something bigoted and dishonest?

    [–]paulja 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Because I want a chance to invest in businesses that make a profit, return that to me in money, so I can retire and live in luxury.

    [–]jakenichols2 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

    The last thing I would want is the sports retard dipshits I work with making business decisions. Not to mention the lack of private property leads to the lack of actual freedom, you are enslaved to everyone around you LITERALLY. I think you've read the idealists version of what they want you to believe it would be, Stalin didn't call people "useful idiots" for nothing...

    Marxism has something called the law of opposites, that everything is itself and its opposite, I think this applies to Marxism as well, "freedom" in communism/socialism is actually the opposite.

    [–]Gnome_Sane -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Very many people today have little to no idea what socialism is, they believe that socialism is government control of everything and that the USSR, DPRK, and China are examples of it. This is obviously untrue to anyone who has read Marx or pretty much any other socialist writer

    According to Marx, Socialism is the step between Capitalism and Communism.

    Socialism is actually democratic worker control of the economy, not government control. The whole point of socialism is to take the democratic process that gives people a voice in there governments and put it into businesses and give people a voice in the workplace as well.

    Actually it is to control how you redistribute the wealth amongst the workers - and the government can do this for the workers. If a government is instituting a socialist economic policy - then that is a socialist government.

    The whole point of socialism is to take the democratic process that gives people a voice in there governments and put it into businesses and give people a voice in the workplace as well. Seriously that's all it is, no mass murder, no restriction of freedoms, no gulags, no Orwellian dystopia, just democracy

    I'm really confused by your idea that there should be a democratic component to the way a socialist society structures the economy. Could you reference where you read that?

    You should read Why Socialism By Albert Einstein. I was thinking your title for this thread may have been inspired by it.

    Yes, him.

    So I echo my title, why not socialism?

    But even Einstein explains that he doesn't see how you can institute it without the restrictions you list. Its not possible to re-distribute wealth without taking from one group and redistributing to the rest.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    I don't want to tax the rich and redistribute the wealth to the poor, I want workers to run the factories democratically. I think that this is much more fair and efficient that the capitalist mode of production where the rich own almost everything and the workers have to work to make them even more rich or suffer.

    [–]Gnome_Sane 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    I don't want to tax the rich and redistribute the wealth to the poor, I want workers to run the factories democratically.

    But what about the person who owns the factory?

    You do want to redistribute wealth if you think that workers of a business should run a factory democratically.

    I think that this is much more fair and efficient

    So when you implement the policy... how is it fair to take a company away from an individual and give it to the employees? And why does that democratically run factory become more efficient? Why don't the most popular but not necessarily most business savvy people win some kind of a democratically chosen position as CEO or on a board or something and have efficiency plummet?

    the capitalist mode of production where the rich own almost everything and the workers have to work to make them even more rich or suffer.

    Eeesh. The class warfare bit is right on the money! Eat the rich! Kill Capitalism! Only Socialism is the answer!

    [–]DeShawnThordason 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Well if you kill all the bourgeois factory owners and their families, then there's no practical obstacle to worker ownership of factories ;D

    [–]Zoltar23 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    And people wonder why socialism is disliked ever so.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    But what about the person who owns the factory? You do want to redistribute wealth if you think that workers of a business should run a factory democratically.

    If that is what you mean by redistribute wealth then yes. Why would that be a bad thing? Giving democratic power to workers instead of concentrating power in a few peoples hands, how can the democracy not be the better option?

    [–]mathurin1911 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    I don't want to tax the rich and redistribute the wealth to the poor, I want workers to run the factories democratically.

    That is a marvelous idea, and guess what? YOU cant do it.

    You, yes you, can form a company and let the workers run it. How you ask?

    Well, first you need to aim a bit small, figure out something that someone else needs that you can deliver and start providing it, then, as you do it well and grow your company, you can start hiring people to do it with you, and give them a say in what happens. Keep it up, and let your business keep growing until you reach the large factory stage.

    Of course more likely, after several decades of hard work have led to success, you wont want to hand the reigns to a bunch of workers who dont understand how to run a business at all.

    Alternatively, crowdfund it, surely there are a few million people in the world willing to hand you a buck to build such a factory. I will laugh as you burn it to the ground

    I think that this is much more fair and efficient that the capitalist mode of production where the rich own almost everything and the workers have to work to make them even more rich or suffer.

    Did you just get out of college?

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

    Well I don't think that when people wanted political democracy that it would have really given people a voice to simple establish it in one or two towns, it needs to be in every town and in every government institution otherwise the people would still be voiceless.

    [–]mathurin1911 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    Well I don't think that when people wanted political democracy that it would have really given people a voice to simple establish it in one or two towns, it needs to be in every town and in every government institution otherwise the people would still be voiceless.

    Uh no, thats exactly how it started, it grew from there because it had benefit.

    [–]griff-labarum 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    How will you get the owners to relinquish control? Guns?

    [–]11l1l1l1l1l1l11 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Because it uses violence to redistribute other's property.

    [–]MDZX 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Not in all schools of thought... but where did property come from in the first place? Capitalism has always been about using violence to take property. Enclosure Laws in England, colonialism, the genocide of Native Americans... where has capitalism not been about violence?

    [–]DevonWeeks 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    You just listed systems of imperialism, not capitalism.

    [–]MDZX 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    And when has capitalism not existed side by side with imperialism? You even see it with China's State Capitalism as it invests billions into Asia and Africa while often upsetting the inhabitants of those areas.

    No True Capitalism, of course. If you read the history of capitalism you'll see that it was always accompanied by State violence against those who resist.

    [–]DevonWeeks 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    You're defining capitalism by how a nation handles money and the principles of investing and pursuing their financial interests. That isn't capitalism at all. Capitalism is simply the private ownership of the means of production. Capitalism is simply my ability to decide for myself that I want to produce a good or service and compete with other producers of the same good or service and reap the benefits of my labor. That's it. What you've laid out is corruption or unethical actions of nations pursuing their own interests. People are getting too quick to assign all of these negative aspects of world history to capitalism when it seems apparent they don't even know what capitalism is. I feel for the OP because it's obvious that he understands what it means to try and discuss an issue beyond most people's wrong perception of the concept.

    [–]MDZX 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Capitalism is simply the private ownership of the means of production.

    No, that's not true. Capitalism has only existed since 1600 or so while private business has existed for millennia. There is an important difference: one of the characteristics of capitalism is wage slavery (or actual slavery, depending on the capitalist), and heavy state involvement. In short, capitalism is market behaviour with certain restrictions and regulations. There are other possible sets of restrictions and regulations which have been the basis of other societies.

    No True Scotsman doesn't work here - what we know as capitalism has never been heralded with anything resembling free choice or peaceful means.

    [–]DevonWeeks [score hidden]

    You have adopted an idealogue's perception of capitalism, not an objective one. As a matter of fact, your entire resonse reads like an article I read recently from World Socialst Movement. But, I digress. Capitalism is private ownership of the means of production. That's all. I'll source the claim.

    an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capitalism

    Capitalism is an economic system in which trade, industry, and the means of production are controlled by private owners with the goal of making profits in a market economy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

    An economic and political system in which a country’s trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/capitalism

    I could go on.

    You can keep saying "No True Scotsman," but the fallacy only applies if you're actually making a correct reference in the first place, which you're not. Your point essentially reads like this...

    You: Men are bad because Rosie O'Donnel ran over a dog last year.
    Me: Rosie O'Donnel is not a man.
    You: No True Scotsman does not work here! She's a real man, and her transgressions are reflective of the species.
    Me: No. Real men have male genitalia. She does not.
    You: No True Scotsman doesn't work here - what we know as men has never been heralded with anything resembling kindness or caring for small animals.
    Me: ???

    This is what you're doing. You've chosen a personal, derogatory opinion of capitalism as a concept and are trying to say that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion, even those who hold the correct opinion in the most academic sense, that they are guilty of a fallacy. Your assertion about capitalism is incorrect. Capitalism is a relatively new term as you said, so you are correct there. Where you are wrong is in its definition. It is and was even at its conception a reference to a system of economic organization in which most of the economy is privately owned and controlled. That's it. Different subsets of capitalism have different degrees of regulation and public intervention, but coneptually it is all still based on that simple principle.

    [–]MDZX [score hidden]

    Ok, you have some dictionary references, that's nice.

    So capitalism has been around for what, 5000 years, by your view?

    [–]mspk7305 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

    Because governments don't implement anything properly. Plus, democracy is bad & can be abused to violate rights of those deemed less desirable. Humans are fickle and pissy beings, they need the structure of a republic to keep them in line.

    [–]Arkene 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    i beg to differ, the us government doesn't implement anything properly as it likes to tack on unneccessary legal requirements to make it inefficient. Us europeans have some very well run socialist programs.

    [–]mspk7305 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    How's Greece doing these days?

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 8 ポイント9 ポイント

    Do the workers in Greece control the businesses democratically? If not then Greece is not socialist, the big government spending, welfare state that many people think is socialism is actually social democracy which is just a center-left position not a far left one like socialism.

    [–]mspk7305 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    You are confusing forms of government with types of economy.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 5 ポイント6 ポイント

    No, I'm just stating that Greece is definitely not socialist and that it is social democratic at best.

    [–]rdinsb 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    There are exceptions - but look at northern Europe: Germany, Switzerland, Denmark, Austria, Finland, Netherlands, Norway - all on the top 10 best countries to live in - all provide education and some kind of healthcare for all people, crime is low and poverty is low. They are not purely socialist - but they have a strong safety net.

    [–]mspk7305 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    The real economic powerhouse in your list is the least socialist among them.

    [–]rdinsb 6 ポイント7 ポイント

    You mean Germany right? Consider the following:

    Unions in the US are considered socialists even though they represent the working class. In Germany, it’s required for worker representation to be half of board members of companies. In Germany, the industrial and financial sectors are highly regulated keeping jobs from being outsourced and ensuring main street benefits rather than just wall street. According to conservative ideology, this kind of socialist practices and union power should destroy the economy and destroy innovation and yet the complete opposite is the result.

    From: http://benjamindavidsteele.wordpress.com/2010/08/27/capitalist-us-vs-socialist-germany/

    [–]Arkene 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    that would be a country plagued with corruption...rather then say a socialist program..such as free education, free healthcare...

    [–]fuckingidiotjunky -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    The more capitalist European countries (Germany, Switzerland) are doing well. The more socialist ones (Spain, Greece) are doing horrible.

    [–]Arkene 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    I didnt say countries. I said programs. Socialism like capitalism doesnt work in the real world as a pure model. We use hybrid models a mix of both to get the best of both with as few drawbacks as possible. As to your choice in countries you nicely cherry picked there.

    [–]ajness 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    The more socialist ones (Spain, Greece) are doing horrible.

    As long as you ignore France, Norway, Sweden, Denmark...

    [–]chipsandmics 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    They may have large welfare programmes and high tax rates but they all rate quite highly on indexes of economic freedom.

    [–]ajness 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Because the Heritage Foundation (which publishes that freedom index) deliberately gives them a pass, knowing that they blow a gaping hole in their political position that +capitalism= +freedom. Imagine if the USA tried to pass a 70% tax law...

    [–]Modex14 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Social Democratic ideals are not socialist ideals.

    [–]ajness 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    You can try to wriggle away from it all you want, the fact is that they are more 'socialist' in the modern sense of the word than Spain or Greece ever were. 70% tax rates, universal education, universal health care, a robust safety net- and it's going just fine, thank you very much.

    No state in existence today is truly socialist, it's a continuum. But the poster trying to claim that socialism breaks stuff is being selective in his examples, and ignoring the real picture.

    [–]fuckingidiotjunky 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    France just froze all public employee salaries and are forecasted to not meet debt targets this year. There are protests going on right now.

    [–]ajness 5 ポイント6 ポイント

    The French protest when their baguettes are more than 30 minutes old. That's no indication of actual unrest or a drive for capitalist reforms.

    [–]wipetheblood 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    Currently, most of the protests in France are against the FN, a far-right party, not really about the salaries of functionary, most of the non-functionary people are totally ok with it. But /u/ajness is right, there's basically always protest in France (and i don't think it's a bad thing, not at all).

    [–]noziky 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    What makes Denmark and Sweden so socialist? They're arguably in the 10 best examples of free market capitalism in the world.

    [–]ajness 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    Sweden:

    60% top tax rate, universal healthcare, joint parental leave lasting 480 days, fully funded pensions

    Free College

    Denmark: Same benefits as Sweden & same tax rates.

    The US gets about 18% of its GDP in taxes versus over 50% for the Nordic countries. Again- try passing free University and a 60 or 70% tax bracket here in the USA and see if you don't get labeled socialist.

    [–]noziky 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Again- try passing free University and a 60 or 70% tax bracket here in the USA and see if you don't get labeled socialist.

    I'm not asking what will get you labeled a socialist in the US. I'm asking what makes those countries so much more socialist than the US.

    You're citing levels of taxation, government spending and universal health care. That sounds more like how the average Republican voter in the South would describe socialism than how an advocate of socialism would describe socialism. OP is talking about socialism meaning that workers have democratic processes to give them control in their workplaces as well as government. Those are related, but not really the same thing.

    [–]ajness 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    I'm not asking what will get you labeled a socialist in the US. I'm asking what makes those countries so much more socialist than the US.

    And I answered that. You are conveniently ignoring the second part of my statement, that there is no such thing as a socialist country in the world today. So we are left with comparative socialism, and my examples are more socialist than they are capitalist, and that's the only claim I'm making. Trying to say they rate as pure socialist is like comparing Athens to Atlantis; one exists, the other is mythical.

    [–]noziky 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    I don't know how you're getting that from what I said. I don't disagree with anything you just said.

    I don't think that the things you cited are particularly good measures of relative socialism, especially for contrasting socialism with free markets / capitalism. They're all outcomes of government policy that don't speak to the underlying decision making structure and ownership of the economy that separates socialism and capitalism.

    A worker controlled, socialist economy might be more likely to have those aspects than a capitalist plutocracy, but those features that you mention aren't what makes a country a worker controlled socialist one rather than free market capitalism.

    [–]Rx16 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Germany is just as socialist* as Norway, Denmark, Sweden, and France.

    *European "socialism" is hardly socialism as it is described in 20th and 19th century academia, it is Social Democracy, sometimes called the welfare state. It is the dominant political philosophy of our time period.

    [–]Cttam 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    State ownership and control of society is not the only form of socialism and is actually not preferred by most socialists.

    'Democracy is bad' sounds pretty ridiculous to me...

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

    Of course the minority opinions rights would be respected to the fullest extent, but honestly do you really think that a system where a few rich people at the top, interested only with making higher profits, control almost all the economy and leave the workers who build society powerless and voiceless is a good, fair or efficient system?

    [–]mspk7305 5 ポイント6 ポイント

    And how exactly do the rights of the minority and unpopular have protection and respect ensured in a direct democracy where the mob can simply vote those protections away?

    The system you describe with "a few rich people at the top, interested only with making higher profits, control almost all the economy and leave the workers who build society powerless and voiceless" is neither a trademark of a capitalist economy nor is it of a republican form of government.

    A capitalistic republic is not the problem, but it is the solution.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    Democracy has existed for a long time in many countries and while it is not perfect and people have been oppressed it has also allowed for people to break free from the oppression that they faced in totalitarian civilizations. So I will ask you, why is the totalitarian form of production under capitalism better or less exploitative than the democratic form of production under socialism?

    [–]mspk7305 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Your question is a logical fallacy.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    Could you explain?

    [–]DeShawnThordason 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    Why is the totalitarian form of production under socialism better or or less exploitative than the democratic form of production under capitalism?

    Same question, basically, just as meaningless.

    [–]TheDesertFox929[S] 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Not the same question as socialism is democratic control of the means of production where capitalism is where a few rich, powerful, people control them to their own benefit.

    [–]DeShawnThordason 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    Socialism is a brutally-forced egalitarian control of the means of production, to the end of stifling individual ambition and creativity. Capitalism is where anyone can benefit from their own labor, instead of being chained to the productivity of their compatriots.

    If we're going to misrepresent these economic systems, I can do this all day. Socialism is interesting, I'm studying it now, but capitalism isn't some evil bogey-man you're painting it as. You're defining it by its worst associations and socialism by its best.

    You've got this idea of what Capitalism is, and you're wondering why it's so much worse than your idea of what Socialism is. This conversation simply isn't grounded in reality

    [–]mspk7305 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    Your question is based on the presupposition that production under a capitalist economy is by nature totalitarian. In fact, totalitarianism and capitalism are diametrically opposed forces.

    [–]kilgoretrout71 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    No, they are two different things that can work in concert with, or in opposition to, each other.

    [–]The_Eye_Of_Adam 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    Democracy has existed for a long time in many countries and while it is not perfect and people have been oppressed it has also allowed for people to break free from the oppression that they faced in totalitarian civilizations.

    This is true of REPRESENTATIVE democracy, but DIRECT democracy has been implemented on very few occasions, and in it's purest form direct democracy (eg: socialism) does pose a risk of regressing into tyranny as the majority opinion could allow the rights of individuals to be violated.