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StreamAesop Rock -- None Shall Pass [Rap] (youtube.com)

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[–]no1scumbag -11 ポイント-10 ポイント

I'm not impressed by the artist who uses the most paint. I'm impressed by the artist who paints the best picture.

[–]MCDayC 23 ポイント24 ポイント

I don't think anyone (including the guy who made the study, or Aes himself) is asking you to be impressed by it.

[–]deleighhttp://last.fm/user/LukarioXO -5 ポイント-4 ポイント

Then why is it brought up in every single thread as if having an unnecessarily verbose vocabulary makes him a better rapper than others out there? Just look in that lyrics thread for plenty of examples. Of course, it's only when a rapper redditors like wasn't that high on the list that they all of a sudden realized that vocabulary size has nothing to do with the quality of an artist's work. So whether you think Aesop Rock is trying to impress people or not, tons of stans use it as a selling point for his music. He's the perfect example of a rapper that tries too hard to sound profound but doesn't actually say anything insightful. I've taken away more from a Snapple cap than I have your typical Aesop Rock song.

[–]brewksy 4 ポイント5 ポイント

A snapple rap is more like a tuneful jingle intended to invoke very direct messages. Art isn't always direct and at the very least should invoke thought, not just deliver a singular message as directly as possible. To say you get more from a jingle only means you probably don't understand (or choose not to be thoughtful or insightful about) some of the complexities of the genre, whether it's the sound or the lyrics.

Vocabulary alone does not make a rapper - but if used properly, can invoke far deeper imagery than someone trying to use simpler words. If you look at a complex piece of work and just deride it for being too complex, it's not the musician's fault for not marketing it directly to you.

[–]deleighhttp://last.fm/user/LukarioXO -1 ポイント0 ポイント

If you are trying to deliver a message or make a statement, it should be delivered concisely, not be pointlessly convoluted. Aesop Rock doesn't make good use of imagery and diction in his lyrics, his lyrics are often so needlessly verbose and nonsensical that whatever point he is trying to make is lost in translation. He's no better than many of the current progressive rock bands that feel that noodling on a guitar for fifteen minutes straight makes them the rock equivalent of Mozart—it doesn't.

Complexity for the sake of complexity is bad technique regardless of what genre it's being used in. It's often a mask for poor musicianship, because if your audience can't understand what you're doing, then they can't criticize it. Of course, that doesn't stop the pseudo-intellectual boneheads on reddit from insisting that complexity and technical skill is the end-all-be-all indicator of quality music, which it isn't. As the previous commenter suggested, the best artist isn't the one who uses the most paint, it's one that can make a lot with a little. Aesop Rock is the opposite of that. His lyrics read as though they were written by a high schooler who just discovered what a thesaurus is. Brushing someone's opinion off by saying the reason they don't like something is because they don't get it is the ultimate cop out and just shows you yourself are justifying poor songwriting simply because it sounds intelligent as opposed to actually being intelligent.

[–]deltrons_ 4 ポイント5 ポイント

I don't think there are any "shoulds" in artistic expression. There's no imperative to be simple and no imperative to be complex. Each has its own effect.

This certainly applies to the people you perceive as promoting Aesop primarily because of his complexity/vocab. But it also applies to what you're saying: Aesop is not "inferior" for expressing his messages in a complex manner.

There is no "best artist" based on any question of paint. In fact... there really is no "best artist" at all. But I understand that debates about who the best rapper is are deeply rooted in the culture -- and that brings out the nonsense remarks on both sides of the debate.

[–]deleighhttp://last.fm/user/LukarioXO -1 ポイント0 ポイント

I don't think there are any "shoulds" in artistic expression. There's no imperative to be simple and no imperative to be complex. Each has its own effect.

Of course, but each also has its own purpose, whether implicit or explicit. What is the purpose of Aesop Rock writing the way he does? Is that how he normally writes and talks? I'd take a guess and say no. I'd even go so far as to say that the reason he writes that way lyrically is because he wants to act like he's saying something deep and profound without actually having to say anything at all. I could spend all day analyzing his lyrics and asking people why it's significant, but it's an exercise in futility when I'll just get some copypasted response from RapGenius instead of a personal interpretation.

This certainly applies to the people you perceive as promoting Aesop primarily because of his complexity/vocab. But it also applies to what you're saying: Aesop is not "inferior" for expressing his messages in a complex manner.

I'm not trying to say Aesop Rock is inferior to anyone, simply that he's not superior to anyone simply because he's a lyrically complex writer. Some guy in a garage playing a bunch of random notes on a guitar isn't a better musician than Brian Eno simply because he plays more notes. That much is understandable, but yet we, for some reason, need to have that conversation when it comes to lyrics. Why? Personally, I couldn't care less about lyrics in music, but if an artist is trying to make a statement, then I'm going to pay attention to what they're saying. If I'm lead to believe that what I'm about to listen to is supposed to be full of insight and instead has me running in circles just to try and understand an unnecessarily convoluted message that isn't really that grande anyway, I'm not going to waste my time on it a second time.

There is no "best artist" based on any question of paint. In fact... there really is no "best artist" at all. But I understand that debates about who the best rapper is are deeply rooted in the culture -- and that brings out the nonsense remarks on both sides of the debate.

My point wasn't to argue that there is a best artist, simply that using the most paint doesn't make the best piece. I find someone who manages to say a little, but inspires many thoughts to be better than the opposite. That's personal preference, sure, but I don't know why anyone would prefer the opposite.

[–]deltrons_ 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I find someone who manages to say a little, but inspires many thoughts to be better than the opposite.

What about someone who says a lot and also inspires many thoughts? Or what about someone that inspires no thoughts but makes an emotional connection or imparts aesthetic satisfaction? Your mileage may vary, of course... but we're talking about highly subjective opinions and impacts.

If Aesop does one of these things for some people, what is the point of discussing how clearly he communicates his message or what amount of meaning or non-meaning can be found in his words?

Yes, you are correct: Aesop Rock does not have stunning intellectual insights encrypted in an elaborate lyrical Da Vinci Code. But calling him a poor songwriter is more than a little harsh -- saying his style choices are purposely designed to confuse people and essentially scam his way to fame is ridiculous assertion.

[–]neyen 2 ポイント3 ポイント

When questioned about his lyrical style in an interview...

"It’s probably because it’s not the most accessible music in the world. It may pose a slight challenge to the listener beyond your average pop song. I'm no genius by a long shot, but these songs are not nonsensical, that's pretty preposterous. I'd have to be a genius to pull this many nonsensical records over people's eyes. It's not exactly fast food but when people pretend I'm just spewing non-sequiturs and gibberish I can’t help but think they simply haven’t listened and are regurgitating some rumor they’ve heard about me. Even if it's not laid out in perfect sentences—is any rap?—you’d have to be an idiot to not at least grasp a few things from these songs. Or have had no interest in pulling anything from them in the first place."

[–]deleighhttp://last.fm/user/LukarioXO -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Of course he is going to say those things about his lyrics seeing as he's the one who wrote them. Very few people have such little faith in what they do that they're willing to immediately discount their own work the second someone criticizes it. The point remains, though, that just because it makes sense to him doesn't mean it makes sense to everyone else. The fact he's not even willing to entertain common criticism just shows he's further up his own ass than his own fans. Sure, some of what he says is understandable, but most of it isn't. It's one thing to write lyrics like The Mars Volta does, which are nonsensical because the sound of the words is what is supposed to be focused on and not the words themselves, but it's another thing to do that and then claim you've actually written something that makes sense and tell anyone who criticizes you that they just don't get it. He may not be a genius, but he's certainly trying to convince everyone that he is. How many great authors and poets wrote like Aesop Rock did? How many of them were one-trick ponies like Aesop Rock who relied on the same gimmick for everything they wrote? How many of them are lauded for intentionally confusing their audience with verbosity? Yet, he seems to think he should be considered the Emily Dickinson of rap music just because he throws in a couple of super-obscure and unimportant references in his lyrics? Yeah, excuse me if I object.

[–]tak08810last.fm/user/tak08820 3 ポイント4 ポイント

You realize that Finnegan's Wake is considered one of the greatest books in the English language by many critics? Ever take a crack at Pynchon or David Foster Wallace Wallace? Or hell Faulkner? Just because the average person finds that the lyrics incomprehensible doesn't mean it actually is.

Also the fact that you're mad he expects to be considered a genius is weird to me and makes me think you're not a big fan of hip-hop. Just about every hip-hop artists talks about themselves as if they're the best - confidence is a big part of the art form. You sound about as silly, to me, as people who complain about the fact that Kanye calls himself a genius as if that takes away from the value of his music or is some horrible character flaw.

BTW I'm not even an Aesop Rock fan you can check my last.fm if you want. I'm just annoyed at the wave of apparent /r/hiphopheads members mad that someone likes an artist they don't and vice versa.

[–]deleighhttp://last.fm/user/LukarioXO -1 ポイント0 ポイント

You realize that Finnegan's Wake is considered one of the greatest books in the English language by many critics?

Finnegans Wake is significant for much more than just Joyce's diction and I hope you can at least realize that. If you want to draw an example between that novel and music, we're going to have to think of a more avant-garde musician than Aesop Rock. Finnegans Wake is comparable to perhaps Varèse or Stockhausen, or the psychedelic and progressive musicians that utilized techniques that were inspired by such composers, elements that go a little deeper than using big words.

Just because the average person finds that the lyrics incomprehensible doesn't mean it actually is.

This comes down to how strong your command on the English language is and what one considers to be proper use of things like imagery and diction. I, personally, do not find pointlessly verbose language to be a sign of intelligence. I don't know of any academic person who does. Any writer that uses diction in order to intimidate or confuse their audience is a bad writer, especially when what they're saying can just as easily be expressed with simpler vocabulary. The phrase "keep it simple, stupid" doesn't just exist for plebs who aren't intelligent enough to be truly knowledgeable about anything, it's for people who are smart, too. If someone wants to learn about music theory, do you think I'm just going to dump a bunch of jargon on them and assume they understand what I'm talking about? Obviously not, so why does Aesop Rock get a pass for doing exactly that?

I'm not mad at anything. There's a huge difference between writing lyrics full of braggadocio and bravado and actually having that kind of attitude in real life. Aesop Rock doesn't write lyrics about how many thesauruses he used to write a song or about how many words he knows, but he certainly loves to think that people who don't like his music simply don't understand it. Rappers like Lil B and Riff Raff wouldn't be as successful as they are if people didn't at least recognize that mainstream rap has become comically commercialized. Most redditors who complain about Kanye West's music probably can't even name a single album of his, so their opinion is irrelevant.

Again, it has nothing to do with me being mad that people like something I don't like, it's the utterly pretentious attitude that people who dislike an artist's music simply don't get it that makes me angry. It's like people really think that using a bunch of big words makes someone intelligent. Really, what Aesop Rock does lyrically is literally no different than guitar noodling. Aesop Rock just reminds me of a watered-down MF DOOM, but actually thinks what his lyrics are profound and deep. I don't see The Mars Volta trying to act like "chrome the fetal mirage" is supposed to mean anything other than nothing.

[–]tak08810last.fm/user/tak08820 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I don't like getting into long drawn out arguments with people who just argue for the sake of argument, so if you'd be kind enough to just answer this one question I'd appreciate it.

Is there something wrong with someone liking Aesop Rock or even considering him the best (totally subjective opinion) based on the fact that he has one of the biggest vocabs in hip hop?

[–]deleighhttp://last.fm/user/LukarioXO 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Is there something wrong with someone liking Aesop Rock or even considering him the best (totally subjective opinion) based on the fact that he has one of the biggest vocabs in hip hop?

People are free to think whatever they want about music, but if I, in turn, find their opinion to be narrow-minded and immature, I'm not wrong in that idea. So, to answer your question, while there isn't anything wrong with it from an objective standpoint, I think anyone who measures skill based solely on vocabulary size or technical proficiency is musically uncultured and likely wouldn't be able to have an in-depth, intelligent discussion about other types of music.

[–]Stoopid-Stoner 0 ポイント1 ポイント

He's the perfect example of a rapper that tries too hard to sound profound but doesn't actually say anything insightful.

"Just because you're listening to him doesn't mean you're hearing him."

[–]deleighhttp://last.fm/user/LukarioXO 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Just because he says a lot of big words doesn't mean he's saying something intelligent.

[–]Stoopid-Stoner 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[–]SYNTHLORD -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

I completely agree with you. You and that other guy probably wouldn't be getting downvoted if this were hiphopheads. r/music, try not to break an arm jerking yourselves off kay?

[–]deleighhttp://last.fm/user/LukarioXO 1 ポイント2 ポイント

At the end of the day, if people want to act like Aesop Rock is one of the best rappers because of his word choice, they're free to do so. I personally think more dedicated hip hop fans should have a more mature view of the genre than that, but it seems like a lot of Aesop fans are total stans who aren't into hiphop beyond your typical backpacker's essentials. And seeing as I'm in /r/Music, I really can't expect any discussion of music beyond nostalgia and fanboying. People can downvote me all they want, it doesn't make what I said incorrect. An intelligently-written counterargument is worth more to me than any number of upvotes/downvotes.

[–]Pet_Park -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

unnecessarily verbose vocabulary

Do you even hip hop?

[–]skwirrlmaster -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Tagging you as Lil Wayne fan.

[–]BThriillzz 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Have you ever listened to Aesop? It seems to me you are unfamiliar to the vibrant pictures that his words create!

[–]8BitMunkyslbdevil 3 ポイント4 ポイント

True. He isn't just throwing words out there for the sake of it. His lyrics are pretty deep and elaborate. He's a natural born storyteller. I do love the beats too.

[–]wermwouldNOT 0 ポイント1 ポイント

He is a trained artist, after all, with a four-year degree from Boston U... or C.

[–]MustacheEmperor -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

And Aesop's words paint an incredible picture.