Official Sailor Moon Premiere Party Excludes Unaccompanied Men

Discrimination, I cry discrimination…or sexism, yes it must be sexism. And Strawman wasn’t even nominated.

I don’t have a horse in this race given that I have zero interest in this franchise. With that said, I’d like to hear as much context on this before having any kind of opinion at all regarding the attendance requirement.

Yeah, I just posted how I have nothing to post. So there!

Hmm…this still rubs me the wrong way. If it was gender segregated due to culture, the magazine, etc., I would assume that men would be excluded entirely. Period. To say “no single men” is oddly exclusionary, as it discriminates against a specific subset of the male sex and smacks of “Ewww, we don’t want those weird guys who like Sailor Moon here.”

No this is pretty much a blanket exclusion. You see an “escorted man” supposedly means that the men is the escort of the woman who is the intended attendee.

I feel like this is a little… problematic, but not in the obvious way. It feels like it sort of feeds into that idea that men aren’t able to control themselves, or behave in a public space, and creates an excuse for bad behavior.

Now, obviously I’d expect there to be policies in place to prevent harassment and the like, and the people in charge of making sure there’s no harassment going on would be looking at the men, for obvious reasons. But I feel it’s better to have a policy where men are expected to behave like adults, in contrast to the idea that they can’t control themselves, where there are consequences for failing to be a decent human being.

This is an event that happen in a far off land from where i live with a colture that is practicly alien to my own, so let me give my opinions on it!

I whould guess that the two most likely reasons for that are either:
a. Vivi magazine tries to distance itself from the otaku colture. I can see why somone like Vivi magaszine would do something like this but also why western anime fans would feel offended by this move. This is after all a remake of a classic anime, and the international anime fandom is very differnt than the japanese otakus – not to mention much more diverse in manners of gender.

b. this is stemming form japanese atitudes towords gender. If this is the case than it’s important to note that japan is a rather sexist society in these regards and we should see this desicion as a sexist enabeling of gender expression.

Please, before you Westerners go off screaming discrimination, there is more societal context around this. Vivi isn’t just doing this to exclude men because they are men but to prevent a certain focused group. You may already know them if you are familiar with Japanese culture and media.

In Japan, magical girls series intended for little girl have a huge male following, called otaku. They can be compared to bronies and like bronies they can be extreme and like the series for VERY nsfw reasons… You can read more about them on wikipedia or google, but shortly put, they have a derogatery reputation surrounding them. In the West the term isn’t so bad but it’s cringeworthy in Japan.

Another magical girl series, Pretty Cure, had an event meant for little girls and their parents, only for it to be overrun by groups of otaku, who made the entire event really uncomfortable and creepy. They bought all the toys and raffles meant for the children. There were reports of some of them taking upskirt photos of the girls in costumes……

Those who do the extreme stuff, the “worst” type of otaku dont tend to have female friends so I see the reason why they specifically said the males had to be “accompanied” by a woman. It doesn’t even have to be girlfriends.

Hm. Would this include gay men and mtf or ftm individuals? Not trying to argue that men should be included as several probable reasons for this have been posted. It’s more curiosity than anything else. (As a gay man I love sailor moon and sure a part of me is going “awe, if I was in Japan I would totally want to go”, but as this is taking place in Japan, sponsored by a fashion magazine with its own preferred focus group it has very little to do with me. ) I’m just curious what thier restrictions encompass

I have no problem with this, as a male and a fan of Sailor Moon (tattoos
of Mercury and Saturn’s symbols on my forearms) I do understand where
this show is aimed. So I get why they are trying to make it Female only
without accompanied of a woman I also have three female fans that would
gladly accompanied me to this if we could go because they know I would
be respectful of the fans and families. This for the safety and fun of the fans so I understand why they want to make sure! Trust me I been to a few Anime cons and I have been creeped out by a few of the men there and I am guy!

I am sure that most of the men have friend that are female that are fans as well that would gladly go with them… they are trying to keep the creepers out which as you see Sailor Europa post is a problem.

and will admit no men… unless they are accompanied by a woman.

Isn’t this also the standing policy for swingers’ parties? Just sayin’.

I don’t know the context or the culture of this situation, and I live on the other side of the world, but I feel I have a right to complain that this event is damaging to men’s rights in the country I live in on the other side of the world!

But seriously, if these guys don’t have ONE female friend or relative to go with them, then they probably shouldn’t be let in.

My first thought reading this article was, “Well, there are some fucking creepy otakus who don’t know when to back off. Kind of like bronies.”

Some things never change, distances between oceans and rocks be damned.

I really don’t see why this would be a debate or a problem for the western audience, as it really doesn’t concern us or effect us. A private Japanese company has the right to invite who they want, and exclude who they want. We have events like that in the good old USA all the time.

Sorry guys, you can’t always “Do what you want”.

That being said, I wonder if Vivi will stream some of the event online, I am totally down with that.

Yeah the Pretty Cure incident is 100 percent what came to mind immediately when I thought about why they would make sure this is for women. Even if you look at sites like TV Tropes anything related to Pretty Cure or any other Magical Girl series aimed at young women has a bunch of really nonsensical posts insinuating that adult men are the “real” fans or how even the shows “pretend” to be aimed at little girls they’re clearly really for grown men who find the underage girls hot.

And mind you these articles aren’t written in condemnation but rather in a “You can tell this show is good because grown men like it! It’s not really for little girls!” manner. Which insinuates anything for girls is of lesser value unless grown men somehow approve of it too. Blech.

Exactly what I thought of when I read this article. Right on.

I get that they have done this for the safety of the female fans but it still kind of rubs me up the wrong way.
As a lady I wouldn’t want to be excluded from say, the Watch Dogs launch, or something.

Yeah, I don’t particularly care about the event itself, but watching people turn every principal they have into a pretzel trying to justify this kind of thing is pretty entertaining.

The director of Crystal also worked on PrettyCure, which has a fan base similar to bronies that actively ruined the event by taking prizes meant for young, female fans at the event, and they creeped on female attendees. ViVi also does distance itself from otaku culture quite a bit. Remember that otaku in Japan are not simply the anime fans that we have out of Japan. Otaku are people who are so involved with their fandoms that they have zero social skills and give nothing to society. The event is for women that grew up watching Sailor Moon and their younger female relatives. They figure that any man that has a friend that’s willing to bring them to the event isn’t an otaku who would creep on attendees.

Well I guess you’d better make sure your gender doesn’t send its slimiest representatives to turn any Watch Dogs event into a creepy perv-fest that makes the space feel unsafe to men. :p

As a man, I’ve got to admit that my gender is pretty spectacular at ruining previously-safe spaces.

I have a friend who lives in Japan with her two little girls. They went to their local mall for a Pretty Cure event and there was a lone 40-something dude there dressed up. A lone dude among a bunch of 5 year olds.

Harmless probably, but definitely awkward.

But what are the chances of women flooding a Watch Dogs to creep? I really don’t get how this is still rubbing people the wrong way. It’s a safety precaution for god’s sake. It’s not the same at all as being kicked out of a boy’s club. Remember that this is Japan, where they have to have women’s only train cars for safety’s sake.

I don’t know, I can understand and see why they did it but I don’t like exclusion as a rule I think.
Maybe the guys can take away from it to improve their behaviour and influence their friends to do the same.

This, thank you.

This, thank you.

True, but when possible, we oughtn’t lump the gentle souls in with the pervs.

What about boys? Like, actual children boys?

“Japan segregates by gender — This is how they do things over there. Why are westerners so upset by this?”

Why shouldn’t we be? If feminism’s stated goal is equality, then shouldn’t we be in principle against separating the genders? You might argue that things like this are an unfortunate, but necessary stepping stone on the way to equality, but to oppose equality itself on the grounds that “Hey, Japan is sexist, whaddya gonna do?” seems a bit silly.

I don’t think little children are allowed to go on events on their own anyway, even if they are girls. So they’ll probably have to be accompanied by their parents – mother, father OR older siblings.

MOON CREEPY OTAKU ELIMINATION!
But seriously, there are creepy otaku that have been getting bad press lately and this an event for a girl’s zine. They have every right to want to keep it to there audience and keep out potential troublemakers. Why is this even a big deal. Like half the men complaining won’t be getting on a plane and going to Japan if rules were changed.

But let’s be real: Sailor Moon’s anime run had a well-known amount of fan service, including a studio requirement that each season include at least one “swimsuit” episode. Yes, the show is intended for girls, but the companies involved didn’t make those demands and license those eyebrow-raising products by accident. Even Takeuchi’s manga featured some sketchy content, like Ruruna and Naruru’s panty shots (and Tuxedo Kamen and the other male characters nose-bleeding all over it) and those girls were stated to be in their early teens.

While I agree that the show has a primary intended audience, it’s clear that the powers that be at Toei and Kodansha have a secondary intended audience as well. Those claims about Sailor Moon and presumably other shows in the MG genre aren’t all that unfounded…

I’m always hesitant to chastise the male fanbase of female-oriented media, because I like the line between gender roles blurring, but THIS … this is why something like Bronies aren’t exactly progressive. Because they’re considered the “real” fans and that they somehow redeem the show because otherwise it would have been just a stupid show for little girls.

Just because we want equality doesn’t mean that there can no longer be women only spaces. As people have mentioned, there have been incidences with older male otaku at these events making the attendees, who are the target audience, uncomfortable.

Men are always considered an audience when it comes to female characters – that’s the problem that this woman-only screening is trying to undermine. It’s saying “hey. this is for women” and men are getting their feathers ruffles and pointing to a swimsuit and saying “BUT I’M ATTRACTED TO THAT, SO IT’S MINE, RIGHT????”

Because social stigma doesn’t exist in Japan, apparently? Hopefully no male children who are interested in the series will be excluded.

It’s clear the ban is aimed at stemming the otaku crowd, but come on…you’re going to suggest that males deserve not to enjoy the material if they can’t get a girl to beard them in?

Right, which is a bit aside from my point. It may well be necessary to do things like this, and you’ve basically made the argument why here, as many have.

It’s the dismissive attitude towards westerners having opinions, or finding the whole thing sad or disappointing.

Like, I get that this might be the best way to keep the event fun for the kids, but the fact that we basically have to recognize patriarchal notions of men being uncontrollable sex criminals, or of men being bad for liking girly things makes me sad. How sad is it if this really is what we must do? I’m still not convinced it’s the best way to handle the situation…

From what I’ve seen online, most male (international) fans are like “oh
okay, i get it/yeah sounds logical” while for some reason a lot of
female (international) fans (or at least readers of Mary Sue) are
complaining. I get exclusion is bad, but this is more than just
someone’s gender that is causing a problem. It’s not because of sexism, so get over yourselves.

Japanese otaku are of course causing an uproar over this while “normal” Japanese guys who are interested SM can easily get in, because they have friends and relatives to bring.

Someone in the West don’t understand how big of a problem otakus are for these events and quickly stamp it as a gender issue because they compare it to the “struggle of female fans for male-dominated subcultures”. It’s not. Their only comparable reference to otaku are neckbeards and bronies, but it’s not, otaku are worse and cause a bigger drain on Japanese society than neckbeards and bronies on America. Bronies are just male fans of feminine media who CAN be extreme/nsfw. Otaku are the term for those who are gone so far they are unemployed, have no friends, fantasize about underage fictional girls and shame women who aren’t 2D.

I agree there may be patriarchal notions about but as I said, there have been real issues in the past with otaku at these events. It’s not just unfounded fear and I think the dismissive attitude comes from Western fans getting all up in arms and making it purely “this is misandry” issue when they are completely ignorant of the whole story.

Yeah, normal male SM-fans can probably get in easily. It’s the really far-out otaku guys who will be hit the hardest by this restriction. Super cool you have SM-tattooes!

Well, there is a lot of stigma with Westerners (aka: white people) judging other cultures, as if they’re superior. Also, it’s a case of people undermining something feminist by calling it sexist, which is just ignorant. But more importantly, Japan is its own culture with its own perspective on its own things.

I can’t find the post now, but there was a post on Tumblr going around about how a Westerner gave a speech on how feminist some anime shows were, including Sailor Moon. An actual Japanese woman came in and slammed her for thinking that she can use her culture’s feminism as a measuring stick in someone else’s, because magical girl anime was actually quite oppressive because they strictly enforced gender roles – which is a huge problem in Japan. Really, we need to amplify the voices of the people actually from the cultures we’re criticizing, not speak FOR them or OVER them.

I’m not sure you’re understanding my point. It isn’t the audience that is claiming ownership. It’s that the company producing the material is covertly giving reason for it, which is problematic in and of itself.

It’s one thing if the show is geared toward little girls and is completely sanitary, and creepy older guys are just claiming it for their own.

It’s quite another when a company says that this show for little girls must include a swimsuit episode in every season, will also include various panty shots, and ludicrous side character designs that cross the line of the blatantly sexual.

I love the show to death and the franchise in general, but the reality is that its production is entrenched in a sexist institution, and clearly panders to a secondary audience. It’s pretty hard to explain why those animation stills had to include so many upskirt panty shots when the skirts could have just as easily covered everything despite being short. (And before it even gets mentioned, yes, there’s a different culture about nudity, but that’s not what we’re talking about here.)

To wit:
http://fandomsandfeminism.tumblr.com/post/52303662337/a

“Not at all?”

You don’t say…

Which I guess sucks for gay men who don’t have female friends, or who don’t want anyone to know that they’re gay. I guess I’d have to see how the policy actually works in practice before I can really say that it’s terribly problematic.

A little disappointing, actually. :(

I’m not too concerned about a policy aimed at excluding otaku, but I’d love to be a fly on the wall the next time we hear about social oppression in some other country or other region and have someone say, “I don’t get why this should bother us. It’s not like we live there or are going there any time soon.”

I understood what you meant. The producers, the artists, everybody involved is guilty of considering how their characters could best appeal to men. It’s no miracle that something that could appeal to men was allowed (yes, allowed) to become so popular. If Takeuchi had not drawn or written her characters to conform to gender roles – to not have sexy heels, swimsuits and panty shots – would it have even gotten published? How far would it have gotten if the people with the money (mostly men) didn’t want to have sex with the characters? That’s what I’m talking about. While the media is still controlled by men, the media will still be groomed for men.

I think the major point here is. . . Naoko created Sailor Moon for girls, and the anime had lots of men working on it and injected fanservice and male gaze into it; given that the new anime though is aimed at women strongly (and perhaps solely), it won’t be like the first anime.

Japan doesn’t expect men to change or to do anything and never asks them to. Men are men and men will treat women in a certain way so Japan’s solution is to make “women only” trains in the subway instead of addressing the serious patriarchy present in their culture. It’s a lot bigger than this incident and Japan is struggling to reconcile these issues. So while it’s not the ideal situation, I think keeping men out of a women’s even, in light of previous issues, is way better than risking harassment to the girls who want to attend the event because there hasn’t been any steps towards addressing the entitlement of men (not just otaku but otaku are a part) who behave that way.

The male children won’t be excluded because they’ll likely be accompanied by an older (female) relative. But this sounds like it’s aimed at older audiences in general (given the anime and the magazine).

That’s a fair statement, and I think it speaks to one of the more problematic parts about the patriarchy. It’s a vicious cycle. You teach men that they don’t need to try and behave themselves and they don’t behave themselves. The ways of dealing with it that reduce risk the most reinforce the idea that men can’t control themselves.

No one wants to be the person to put themselves at risk to try and break the cycle. And… that’s understandable. I can’t really blame the organizers here. That’s why it’s important to have awareness campaigns to get to a point where it is safe to have more inclusive events. I can’t really blame the event organizers here. I don’t like it, there’s problems with it, but I think there’s work that needs to be done before it can necessarily be fixed.

I really don’t get this “But exclusion!” issue people are having. It’s good exclusion, which shockingly happens. You don’t want dangerous people mixing in with others, which is exactly what this is. It isn’t about gender so much as them knowing exactly what kind of men would be trying to get in without a female invite.

People somehow don’t get how scary a *real* otaku is in Japan. The word is written with the character for “house” because otaku don’t leave theirs for anything other than their fan interests. And as you said, they contribute nothing to Japanese society, except more anime in the case of anime otaku. Which is actually starting to become a problem in the industry, because the only people then buying within Japan are other otaku. Miyazawa even had a thing to say on this, and Miyazawa’s films are all about peace and acceptance.

If that doesn’t give you a good idea of how bad otaku are, I got nothing.

And little boys going to the event would need to come with their mothers. Which I don’t think would be a huge issue there. The whole event is for nostalgic adult female fans, and I bet a good deal attending have kids they’ll want to bring.

I agree. I am not Japanese, but I have lived there and I would also like to see this changed. However, they have a very different view of gender and identity politics than we do in the West which alters how they deal with these things. The organizers here are doing it for girls/children and they want to avoid incidences and this is really their only way to deal with it without a pretty big cultural shift. Plus, male otaku always have Akihabara which very much caters to their interests. This is a good chance for young women and kids to be involved with a show they like without going down an Otaku road.

I am not interested because of http://bit.ly/Rx7VEu

That makes sense. Now, I do think Japan needs a pretty big cultural shift, but not Japan specifically. The US needs a massive cultural shift. When it comes to women and minorities, pretty much everywhere needs a cultural shift.

And I’ll say this as well: They aren’t ignoring the issue. That’s a lot more than I can say for a lot of events here. I may not think their solution is optimal, but I’m speaking from a place where there’s huge uproar over basic anti-harassment policies at conventions. I’d take their solution over the preferred solution here, which seems to be “pretend the problem doesn’t exist.” That’s been working out REAL great for us.

Every place needs a huge shift when it comes to the patriarchy. But I disagree that Japan is approaching it better as their approach is pretty much “pretend it doesn’t exist”. Instead of making an effort to stop men from groping women on public transport, they put women into special cars and acted like that was the big solution.

We need to stop addressing male entitlement towards women and things that involve women. Keeping men out is good for the girls who just want to attend an event, but it’s really just a bandaid on a cultural problem. “Cosplay is not consent” is a much more direct, though not deeply nuanced, approach.

I see. I have heard horror stories about Japanese Otakus, and i can definatly understand why both the producing company and ViVi would want to bar access for them.

Though I would like to say that as someone who ran with several fanbases, I can attest Bronies are a lot closer to other westerner geeks than Japanese Otaku. They whould best be described as a midpoint between furries and comic book fans.

Wait a second. I thought that woman could choose weather to use the woman only car or not. Weren’t they suppesed to be an optional safe space? are woman there in a situation where they have to use them?

I apologize. I was being colloquial when I used “put”. Women are not forced to take women only cars.

Hopefully not. Though, again, Takeuchi added some seedy stuff herself. Off the top of my head, I can think of Sailor V having her skirt lifted and stared under by otaku, and the entire Hammer Price side comic story, as well.

What I mean to say, specifically in regards to the wider issue, is that making women-only cars isn’t a GOOD solution. And ignoring the problem after tossing a half-assed solution at it certainly isn’t a good thing. But it did show that there was, at least briefly, awareness of the problem, which is good.

Newer convention harassment codes are better than they were, but in society at large, we seem to have trouble even tossing half measures at the problem. I don’t know how bad our public transportation is in comparison, but I think it’s fair to say that it’s not safe for women. But we don’t even toss a half measure at it, we just pretend it’s not there.

Neither approach is good, I think it’s safe to say. And it’s certainly not a good idea to hail gender segregation as a solution rather than a safety measure. But I think it’d be nice if we implemented a few safety measures, in addition to dismantling the root of the problem that isn’t being addressed.

I guess my point was that the use of women only cars on the subway only addresses the problem of “women are groped by men” and not at all the problem of “men think it’s acceptable to grope women on the subway”. Now this certainly does happen in the US, I have been harassed on the DC metro before. However, in DC and also NYC I have seen campaigns to encourage women to speak up and for men to stop other men from bothering women which I feel better addresses the problem from the “men do this to women” standpoint even if it’s perhaps less effective. Because overall, the issue of men groping on the subway in both cultures comes from a larger sense of entitlement to women.

ViVi is indeed, a Women’s fashion magazine (targeting late teens to early twenties).

I think people upset by the entry policy lack the right perspective on that type of event, which seems more a publicity stunt with celebs, limited seats, and most tellingly, no minors allowed, than a bona-fide viewing for fans. It’s a select party, y’all, and the no guys allowed unless accompanied by a woman is less an anti-otaku ploy than a “you can come, but you’ll have to pay an extra ticket if you want in” way to cash in on the event.
Said event will include a fashion show by various models from the magazine and secret guests – possibly celebrities picked among the ones currently making the variety show rounds, no doubt professing an undying love for the original series, whether it’s true or not – and the entry fee for the event will be 3000 yens.
As I said, the no minors allowed is pretty telling on what kind of show this will be anyway.
If you’re wondering where I get all the details, it’s simply from the venue’s schedule itself, over there :
http://hall.zepp.co.jp/divercity/schedule.html?year=2014&month=06

So it’s the old trap where a temporary solution prevents a permenent one?

Definitely so. And I do acknowledge that safety features are a duel edged sword as well. While it can help, it can also swing around to victim blaming, if someone chooses not to utilize all of them and be completely paranoid at all times. I absolutely agree that addressing patriarchal entitlement is really the only solution that effective in the long term.

By the way, I think this is the longest discussion I’ve ever had on the internet that I wouldn’t classify as an argument. So… thanks! I wish this happened more often.

For the most part, Bronies are more harmless than otaku, yes, but it’s the closest comparison we have to Big Friends.

I think in a sense because it allows for the issue to be seen as “solved” instead of still running rampant in the system. But admittedly, the real solution of breaking down patriarchal norms is extremely difficult. But it also doesn’t mean that Japan cannot and will not ever address it. Just like how the US is finally starting to address these things, albeit slowly and with much resistance.

…Miyazawa ?

Oh, yeah. It’s not as though Naoko doesn’t have some stuff she added herself, but what she did was in much different contexts altogether than what the anime does.

For instance, her lingerie and nude art of Usagi has a totally different air than anything the anime ever did. I also like that SailorFailures pointed out that in the manga, Usagi matures and grows sexually whereas in the anime, you get fanservice of her (and the others) but she never has that aspect of her and remains pure, which is the moe/otaku ideal. Interesting aspect I never realized and considered that’s also important.

I don’t disagree that there was a lot of fanservice. Even in the early episodes you had stuff like Umino flipping up his teacher’s skirt so we get a shot of her panties while she’s blushing and embarrassed.

But I was specifically talking about the mindset that because there is fanservice or because some men find the underage middle school girls attractive, the show is actually intended for them as though they are the primary audience. That is what I took issue with and why I mentioned in light of some of the controversy around Pretty Cure, I can see why they’d want to highlight the premier as being something for women.

No minors allowed? Well, that puts the entire even’t in quite a differnt light.

“Big Friends”?

Things that might happen to you are unpredictable, so be prepared for http://tiny.cc/6pajgx f

I agree that her nude/lingerie art of Usagi and the other characters are a different concept. But I mean things like these:

http://www.serenitatis.de/charaktere/weitere/naruru_ruruna.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii28/jadebear2/55-56.png

(There’s also one of a breeze of wind lifting up Ruruna and Naruru’s skirts, causing Tuxedo Mask to act super pervy, but I can’t find a scan of it.)

Is that a stereotype, or an absolute? Even a lot of social recluses have a friend or two, don’t they.

As for me getting over myself, huh? Like, I have mixed feelings and suddenly I’m an MRA?

From what I’ve seen, “big friends” = older, predominantly male fans of Precure. I’ve seen other posts indicating that the term is used to describe older fans of child oriented media as a whole, but it seems to be mostly associated with Precure.

True, but then there are others cases of clear injustice. Honor killings may be seen as necessary and moral in some parts of the world, but it’s hard to argue that they’re anything but awful. The difficult part is actually trying to solve issues like this, and by and large it’s beyond the purview of anyone who isn’t very familiar with the surrounding context.

On the flip side, I think we SHOULD be discussing what forms feminism can and should take worldwide, but we should first be humble and honest about our own knowledge. This, ultimately, is why I’m ambivalent. Perhaps it really is necessary that thos event be handled this way. Even so, it still makes me sad. Equality is the goal. It’s sometimes necessary to mandate an apparent inequality on the way there, but it’s a reminder of how far we have to go, and I don’t like it.

Perhaps it’s because we know what it feels like to be excluded. Like I said I understand it, it’s logical, but it also makes me feel sad.

I understand what you mean but this is more than just a gender thing, so please don’t feel sad. It’s a wonderful thing to want an equal world where no one is excluded but this isn’t exclusion based on gender alone despite the phrasing (as guys can still join the event), this is a preventative action towards a cankerous social group of which gender is a nominative, but not the cause…

I meant Miyazaki. I was listening to the KareKano OST recently, so the names got crossed in my head.

That’s what grown male otakus who love mahou shoujo titles are called, particularly titles aimed at younger audiences.

I can’t believe on it because of http://goo.gl/QBaHdV

I can’t believe on it because of http://goo.gl/QBaHdV

Not to mention this is the last place on the web I thought I’d ever see, “remember… it’s their culture” thrown out.

Not to mention this is the last place on the web I thought I’d ever see, “remember… it’s their culture” thrown out.

Given how Naoko Takeuchi has gone on record as saying she appreciates ALL fans, even the ones who draw hentai porn, I genuinely wonder what her thoughts are on this.

The problem is that the next time women are excluded from something “for men”, this will get pointed to, and so far the posts defending it end up just sounding like, “Well of course it’s okay when WE do it!”

So, “It’s okay when we do it, because reasons!”?

“I really don’t get this “But exclusion!” issue people are having. It’s
good exclusion, which shockingly happens. You don’t want dangerous
people mixing in with others…”

As someone who’s watched their friends be assaulted and beaten by the police because of what they were wearing, or because they were in “the wrong neighborhood”, and those actions were defended by people who want to “feel safe”, please understand that even though you didn’t intend it to be so, your post and its wording is by far the creepiest and most disgusting thing I have seen all day.

Except women already get excluded from a lot of things, it just rarely gets explicitly stated.

Nah I think a fairer comparison would be adult female fans flooding into a Transformers event geared at little boys and pulling out the NSFW slash fanart. I’d be curious to know if that’s ever happened.

I know for a fact that if something similar happened with MLP, the entire Brony fandom would explode.

“as though those two things are mutually exclusive”

This, unfortunately, tend to be the case more often than not.

“A private Japanese company has the right to invite who they want, and exclude who they want.”

Legally?

No, they’re the midpoint between furries and Japanese Otaku.

Under this logic, it would be perfectly acceptable for a conservative restaurant to bar gays from entering their joints. After all, they wouldn’t want to upset their conservative costumers :B

I’d have to disagree here. Maybe I just frequent different parts of the fandom, but from my experience, they seem to be midway between general geeks and furries.

Why would this not be legal? Read the word ‘private’ again.

Thank you for this.

I was just asking as to wether this was something that IS legal, or SHOULD BE legal.

Why’d this get downvoted? ._.

Did you in all honesty just compare homophobes throwing gay people out of restaurants for such daring transgressions as “sitting down to eat while gay” with a company trying to keep out people taking away merchandise and prizes meant for children and doing such nice, “harmless” things like trying to take up-skirt pictures of underage girls? (Sailor Europe’s post(s) for more details).

No. Learn to read.

And lovely strawman as well.

I think that did happen in Japan. A lot of young boys series are really popular with teen-20s female fans for slash reasons, stuff like Kuroko, Prince of Tennis, Naruto/Bleach etc. I heard something about a girl asking male voice actors to say very inappropriate love lines to each other in an audience of mostly guys and young boys.

Tnuoc= Banning men without female company is acceptable when done to protect the female audience.
You= By that logic (aka let me show you how silly your point is) it should be perfectly acceptable for conservatives to ban gay people from restaurants.
Yes. Yes you DID just compare two completely different things. And should this not be what you MEANT, then maybe learn how to write.

In sorry it was taken that way at all. But do realize in not talking about racial profiling at all or anything regarding public spaces and empty accusations. I’m not white myself, been in the wrong neighborhood and assumed I was doing something illicit, so I understand the offense. But that’s not even close to what I’m talking about, and you even say you know it. I’m talking about situations like keeping registered sex offenders away from school zones, women’s only shelters, etcetera. The exclusion at this part in particular is 1) a private event and 2) put in place because men who actively post pornographic material to fan forums for children came in a ruined a similar event.

We’re seeing this from two different perspectives here. You’re seeing it from a subject POV, in which case you’re correct. I’m seeing it from a ‘how vile can they get’ POV.

I lurk in the furry fandom and have experienced a lot of bad things from furries and Bronies alike, and when both groups are denied porn, they go a bit crazy. Bronies though, seem to be so much worse. Bronies will stalk, harass, and just overall say vile, horrible things to artists who dare not draw pony porn. This is especially true if the artist is a woman. Women artists have sworn off the fandom entirely because the sense of entitlement and backlash is so extreme.

Furries react about the same as comic book fans do whenever their is controversy (which is already horrible), but Bronies…just seem so much worse. A lot of them love preaching the show’s message of love and acceptance but then they turn around spout sexist, racist, and transphobic shit while creeping on con-goers. I’d say this the same as other fandoms to, but honestly, I’ve met far more horrible Bronies than I have good ones. Actually the goods one’s I’ve met were desperate to declare that they weren’t “cloppers” and didn’t do all that horrible stuff.

Actually, no, I amend this: avoid like crazy the Bronies who look a pony porn. Bronies who don’t seem to be okay.

Said the kettle.

I’m woefully not surprised.

Yeah, but it’s again about a specific type of recluse. These are men that literally prefer 2D women who are often underaged or look underaged and treat real women as inferior, filthy sluts. They every now and then have a friend (probably long distance at that), but they very very rarely would have a real, flesh and bone female friend.

Like, I thought these were exaggerations in manga and doujin. Then I had friends come back from Japan and have gone to manga/anime related events and report back that it actually isn’t an exaggeration. A lot of otaku are that extreme, and the ones that would try to get into these big special events are almost always the extremes.

See, I love Sailor Moon and what can be taken away from it in terms of a feminist manifesto and queer visibility, but it’s still done from that very problematic climate of Japan. Remember that all the queer pairings have clearly gendered roles and there’s a lot of, “This and that because we’re girls and that’s how all women feel,” repeated throughout. They do it with family and marriage a lot, in particular. The best blurring of gender-perception in the manga or anime really is in the Amazoness Quartet’s pet/minions, and they were 1)villains and 2) transformed animals.

And I haaated that extra with the two classmates of Chibi-Usa in the manga that were brand obsessed. They did not look or act like elementary school girls, and characters around them didn’t treat them as such, either.

Yeah, I’m lucky in that the majority of the bronies I know are actually relatively well-adjusted. For them, the show is just fun with a bright message and it’s not much different from watching Teen Titans or the latest TMNT. And the same level is okay when it’s guys watching mahou shoujo.

But BIg Friends are like Those Bronies, and both enjoy disturbing fan porn and will not hesitate to share it with people who don’t want to participate and ask to be left out of that sort of fandom. You know, among other troubling behaviors.

Yea, your second paragraph is unfortunately the type of Bronies I usually meet, which is kind of weird since I don’t look at porn. Hopefully I’ll meet some cool Bronies at other places.

I was replying specifically to “The point is the company wishes to ensure a good experience for its primary viewers”.

I’ve seen many a right-winger say things like that to justify bigotry and discrimination.

Apologies if I misunderstood the comment.

“Actually, no, I amend this: avoid like crazy the Bronies who look a pony porn. Bronies who don’t seem to be okay.”

I can’t upvote this enough.

You would be surprised. There are quite a few notable instances in American history (I don’t know enough world history to be more expansive in my statement) Where specific events and institutions were catered to men specifically and outright banned the opposite gender to participate in which had women rights movements en masse flooding to show their own interest.

Still, were talking about a different country and culture. The sort of place where they hire people with sticks whose job is to push and shove people into trains so they can all fit in literally as sardines due to how crowded things get.
The congestion issue there is insane.

Im not really clear on how these premire events work. Is it like a private showing/first screening of a clip or a first episode?

Ignore my previous comment, I had misunderstood Tnuoc’s post.

accept that When the third season of MLP ended Hasbro had a special concert event that was for children only.
Sure some grumbled about it, but as a whole the fans understood.

It’s really comes down to where do you hang out. The brony fandoms is very discentralized and differnt centers of it can be wholly differnt from each other.

The worse Iv’e sen form a fandom is in the Video gamers crowd. But this could stem from the fact that pretty much everyone is a gamer now.

I think that conflict comes from the fact that the original manga was written for girls, by a woman, but the anime was done by men for a slightly more general audience.

March in protest ≠ coming in to creep on the menfolk. I specifically said to creep. Protests are a completely different breed of animal here. I do think men are entitled to their own spaces, but when I say boy’s club, I’m talking pigtail pulling childishness of no boys allowed. And that’s not the case with the ViVi event. Men are allowed with female accompaniment, and the rule is there not just for exclusivity but safety.

If kinoumenthe (from a comment) is correct then I’d like to know how she feels about the fact that Kid’s are excluded from a sailor moon event as well.

Actaully there seems to be a “no children allowed” policy but from google translate I can’t understand what ages are they restricting is this to:
※未就学児童の入場不可

Im not really a fan of ‘X group specific spaces’ myself, though I can understand your viewpoint.

The whole ‘safety’ thing just baffles me though. I mean, how is that much safer? If safety was such a large priority, they would have some decent security to deal with troublemakers. Not expecting chaperoning to be an effective deterrent. I mean, sure this was a common practice in Europe back in the day, (It is unsafe for a woman to go alone so take a chaperone to keep them out of trouble) But it just hinges on whomever is accompanying to be responsible.
And since this event is bound to have SOME sort of security anyway…..It just seems kinda pointless if safety is the reasoning.

It still doesn’t explain some of the otaku-pandering things that Takeuchi added into the manga herself, though they were largely in comedic sections rather than interspersed throughout the medium the way they were in the anime.

As true as that is, I feel like the otaku scans are a statement on them (given how horrible the otaku came off). There isn’t much to say about Naruru and Ruruna though. x’D

I am reminded that I need to read that story again though~.

I can say, from both sides of the coin that I’m on both ends (an ethnic that would be wrong neighborhood, and gender group that makes it so I wouldn’t be safe because of certain groups), I don’t think that was written inappropriately.

And I don’t mean this in a “I speak for my gender way,” and your comment can apply plenty of ways to plenty of groups, but from a female perspective, we are often threatened in spaces and I felt right away that I knew what they meant. At the same time, I entirely had all of the context of the article, but it still rung a bell that, “wow, not having to worry about my safety would feel good.”

I get your angle, but I kind of take contention with you saying that even, because that is less gross, disgusting and creepy than some of the justifying for the otaku side happening here. (Defending male fans’ invasion of a female space is already problematic as it is.)

I like your taste!

I won’t say anything for the first paragraph, because I don’t know too much of the state of Japanese feminist movement for that time or now, but in reference to the second paragraph and those two characters. . .

They didn’t look like elementary school girls (though I’m guessing all of them were supposed to be 6th grade maybe, and I can kind of give that a pass) but how they acted wasn’t off. They were based on kogal, and it wasn’t unpopular for middle school girls to be kogal so I assume give or take that age range is fine. I don’t know how appropriate it is to be discussing a subculture (of another culture) like this, especially in terms of how that subculture is in relation to the larger culture (from what I understood, it both bucks/subverts and kind of plays on some of Japan’s expected norms).

I think a good example of (ko)gals is. . . GALS. Or Super Gals, for the anime.

But yeah, every guy that saw them got a nosebleed (which I get and see the meaning, but it is fairly inappropriate).

I don’t know for in general, but this sounds like the first ep~.

My Japanese so rusty that I can’t remember all the Kanji.
But anyway, that makes sense to me too. ViVi is for girls 19-25. Not really for children. And this wave of Sailor Moon, while probably for children too, is also being created to make bank on the nostalgia of women who were fans when they were children. I still think it makes sense to protect them from otaku who may want to attend the event and cause issues like they have at other events.

Oh no, I didn’t mean the gyaru aspect. I’m into j-fashion and I have a lot of friends that are into gyaru fashion and subculture. I’m talking about the fact they were driving a jeep…

Oh, well that’s good then. :)

Yeah. Until then, we have…BronyCon.

*violent shudder*

Ohhh! Lol, okay. I am too, and I get a bit worried when people talk about it. x’D
I noticed someone was driving for them, but I know that wasn’t Naru and Naruru’s mom, so I was wondering about that. It seemed fitting in a way though.

I met a self-titled brony in real life who did the exact same thing. When I side-eyed him, he insisted, “I’m not a clopper, don’t worry.”

Then he said some homophobic stuff.

I feel there’s no winning with any who take on that title.