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[–]elmuerte 277 ポイント278 ポイント

This is exactly the anti competitive behavior for which Microsoft was sued by Novell, Netscape, etc.

[–]abeliangrape 82 ポイント83 ポイント

Huh? How is that at all similar?

  • You can define a custom instance of UIView in like 20 lines of Objective C to achieve the same effect in a quick and dirty way.
  • If you want something more robust, you can install and use any number of libraries on github to do the same.
  • Apps on iPhone have used popovers since forever ago (at least Dropbox and Facebook did until iOS 7).

Chances are, they want to discourage the design practice, but are too hypocritical to abstain themselves. "Do as I say not as I do" type thing. If you're going to knock them for stifling their competition, at least point to something substantial like not letting Nitro optimize JS in UIWebViews outside of Safari.

[–]darkpaladin -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

You can define a custom instance of UIView in like 20 lines of Objective C to achieve the same effect in a quick and dirty way.

You can download any browser you want once you have windows set up.

If you want something more robust, you can install and use any number of libraries on github to do the same.

There are any number of other browsers available, no one is forced to use IE.

Apps on iPhone have used popovers since forever ago (at least Dropbox and Facebook did until iOS 7).

Other browsers have been available on windows since forever ago.

Seems pretty damn similar to me.

[–]Jinno 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Yeah, but this isn't about providing a user with a product in an anti-competitive way. This is about a developer producing an application, using a set of libraries that Apple has made for their platform, and denying them access to one feature in one form factor over the other. They're encouraging their HIG by making it a chore to implement popovers, so that applications will hopefully use them sparingly.

[–]immibis 182 ポイント183 ポイント

And somehow all it gets is a "Huh, that's interesting. Let's hope it changes in the next version"?

[–]the_enginerd 79 ポイント80 ポイント

Apple does not have a monopoly in the smartphone space. If they did then regulatory laws would have a say, otherwise it's their device they can do what they like with it.

[–]InconsiderateBastard 11 ポイント12 ポイント

Microsoft was charged with tying for bundling IE with Windows. The case was made that IE and Windows were unrelated and thus shouldn't be tied together. Tying them together was seen as a way to make money off IE while hurting other browser makers.

If IE and Windows are not related, then iOS and its apps may very well be unrelated in the eyes of a judge or jury somewhere. In that case, if they make their bundled apps run better through private APIs or API manipulation, and that hurts 3rd party software makers that rely on Apple because of its market share, then there might be a case for anti-competitive practices there.

This really doesn't seem all that different from what happened with MS.

[–]darkplumb90 11 ポイント12 ポイント

Apple bundles Safari with iOS and OS X, not only this, Safari cannot be unseated from being the default browser in iOS. Tell me that isn't different from Microsoft's situation in the '90s.

[–]giantsparklerobot 10 ポイント11 ポイント

The actions that got Microsoft in trouble are only tangentially related to the bundling of IE with the OS. First Microsoft tried to coerce Netscape into not even developing Navigator for Windows 95. Netscape turned them down so then Microsoft went after OEMs. At the time Netscape Navigator was often bundled with new PCs and it was uncommon for IE to also be installed.

Microsoft offered OEMs better pricing and support contracts if they excluded Navigator and included IE in their bundles. They would also penalize OEMs if they included Navigator in their software bundles. Then they went a step further and built IE into Windows 98 making it impossible to remove the browser from the OS, either for users or OEMs. They also went to ISPs and offered them sweetheart deals for bundling branded versions of IE with their dialers.

It was all of this behavior that caused problems for the DOJ. Bundling a browser is not a major issue. If that's all Microsoft had done they wouldn't have had any problems. What they did however was make every attempt to cut off Netscape's air supply because Netscape was trying to offer a users a way to access programs and services that did not rely on Microsoft platforms. Microsoft used their monopoly to cut off a competitor. In the words of LeVar Burton "Don't take my word for it", here's the Proposed Findings of Fact from US vs. Microsoft.

With iOS there's never been a competing browser and it's also not a general purpose computing platform like Windows. Apple has also never had a virtual monopoly in the same way that Microsoft did in the 90s. Microsoft changed the architecture of their platform to edge out competitors. Apple's platform has always included a browser and API restrictions. They're very different situations.

[–]xevz 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Minor side note: Windows 95 OSR 1 included Internet Explorer 2, OSR2 included IE 3 and OSR 2.5 included IE 4 (also providing the quick launch bar, Active Desktop and IE as file browser).

[–]redwall_hp 2 ポイント3 ポイント

The case wasn't about bundling IE with Windows. It was about Microsoft abusing their monopoly to coerce hardware vendors. I.e. "if you include Netscape with this computer, we'll stop giving you OEM licenses for Windows."

[–]the_enginerd 7 ポイント8 ポイント

Except for when you take a step back and look at the market as a whole. IE at the time worldwide effectively had a lock on consumers browsing the Internet. Apples market share was in the teens at best and *nix was practically nonexistent from a consumer standpoint. My not being a lawyer hurts my ability to argue from any real standpoint but I feel like apple is safe here as long as they aren't the majority access provider to a broader market.

If what you say is true then to me where do you draw the line? Is Google not giving developers their backend API's to Gmail so that others can 'build a better app' anticompetitive? They certainly have a lock on the Gmail marketplace. However they are hardly the majority email provider in the world.

[–]InconsiderateBastard 2 ポイント3 ポイント

I don't know where to draw the line. I would imagine it's difficult to identify when a company is attempting to form a monopoly, but attempting to monopolize is covered by monopoly law too. Not just being a monopoly.

[–]headShrinker 1 ポイント2 ポイント

If you can define the market, the market share, it's scope, and it's geographic area, you are on the path to finding a true monopoly.

[–]slycurgus 15 ポイント16 ポイント

The point of competition legislation is to prevent a monopoly, not to let one take hold and then try to do something about it.

Saying "they don't have a monopoly, they can do what they like" is like saying "well, he's got a knife, but he hasn't killed anyone yet".

[–]thechao 124 ポイント125 ポイント

In the US, monopolies aren't illegal, anticompetitive practices are illegal.

[–]flekkzo 27 ポイント28 ポイント

If you pay enough politicians it stops being anti competitive. see Comcast.

[–]stonedasawhoreiniran 6 ポイント7 ポイント

A.K.A. Regulatory Capture

[–]MxM111 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Whether it is anti-competitive or not is decision to be made by court, not by politicians.

[–]Mithorium 0 ポイント1 ポイント

the court enforces rules made the politicians, if the politicians amend the rule just enough that the practice is technically no longer anti-competitive, then the court cannot help

[–]fzammetti 2 ポイント3 ポイント

True... but is this not the very DEFINITION of an anticompetitive practice? I mean, clearly this gives their apps SOME sort of competitive advantage, otherwise they wouldn't be doing this in the first place, right?

The OP is right: Apple gets a pass on stuff like this where other companies have gotten slammed for it... they're the bell of the ball right now so nobody seems to care very much, but they should.

[–]slycurgus 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Good catch. I should perhaps have said "the point of competition legislation is to discourage companies from engaging in behaviour likely to lead to a monopoly".

[–]thechao 20 ポイント21 ポイント

Anticompetitive behavior doesn't require a monopoly. That's how microsoft got in trouble---they were never technically a monopoly. There are many monopolies in the US, most in areas that are considered "natural monopolies", e.g., the Fed (monetary control), most power, water, and sewage; many roads, etc.

[–]scriptmonkey420 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Intel in the 90's and Early 2000's is another good example

[–]marm0lade 7 ポイント8 ポイント

You mean current day intel. Intel in the 1990s and early 2000s had heavy competition from AMD. That is until they bribed OEMs not to use AMD chips. It worked. The slap on the wrist they got from the feds was soooo worth it.

[–]scriptmonkey420 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Intel in the 90's was sue happy over numbers. Amongst other anticompetitive practices.

[–]nekowolf 1 ポイント2 ポイント

From the Court's finding of fact.

Microsoft enjoys so much power in the market for Intel-compatible PC operating systems that if it wished to exercise this power solely in terms of price, it could charge a price for Windows substantially above that which could be charged in a competitive market. Moreover, it could do so for a significant period of time without losing an unacceptable amount of business to competitors. In other words, Microsoft enjoys monopoly power in the relevant market.

[–]thechao 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Good call. I was mixing legal definitions of monopoly with economic definitions of monopoly. Bad on me.

[–]e_engel 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I should perhaps have said "the point of competition legislation is to discourage companies from engaging in behaviour likely to lead to a monopoly".

Still not quite right. Anti competitive behaviors are always illegal in the US, regardless of the goal. Monopolies are perfectly legal and a normal byproduct of trade in a capitalist market.

[–]doublejrecords 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Well, we do say that too...

[–]sysop073 5 ポイント6 ポイント

That was the worst example ever; carrying around a knife is perfectly legal

[–]aveman101 20 ポイント21 ポイント

How would private APIs give them a monopoly over all smartphones? Particularly UIPopoverController?

[–]obsa 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Mountains, molehills, etc.

[–]onyxleopard 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Hey! I saw this one molehill… Its proportions were quite large.

[–]obsa 0 ポイント1 ポイント

something something your mother.

[–]wretcheddawn -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

It's anti-competitive. There's no way for a competing software package to do the same thing.

[–]ceol_ 7 ポイント8 ポイント

...on an iPhone. It's available on the iPad.

Also, it's not impossible for a competing software package to do the same thing. See: https://github.com/50pixels/FPPopover or any of the other alternatives to UIPopoverController for the iPhone.

[–]Draiko -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

I guess you're OK with classifying gay marriage as a civil union. Same thing, right?

Just because they can't use the term "marriage" doesn't mean they don't have equal rights, no?

It helps keep everything nice and organized, right?

[–]ceol_ 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Yeah man, because those are totally the same thing. I can't tell you how many times I got spit on and harassed because I wanted to use UIPopoverController instead of a custom implementation. Just the other day, someone threw a brick through my window because he saw my GitHub repo used it for a personal app I was working on. It had a note attached that read, "OUR TOWN DOESN'T TOLERATE THE UTILIZATION OF PRIVATE APIS. GO BACK TO ANDROID."

[–]bwainfweeze 0 ポイント1 ポイント

When Microsoft got slammed for doing this, they had private APIs that were far faster than the published ones. Nobody could write code that ran as fast, except by reverse engineering.

It wasn't about some UI control you had to reinvent by hand if necessary.

[–]Trizlo 15 ポイント16 ポイント

So, we should put the guy with a knife who has not done anything wrong yet in jail because he MIGHT kill someone with it?

Do you see the flaw in this logic?

[–]mindbleach 7 ポイント8 ポイント

Ah yes, it wouldn't be a computer thread without shitty analogies.

[–]KanadaKid19 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Saying "they don't have a monopoly, they can do what they like" is like saying "well, he's got a knife, but he hasn't killed anyone yet"

Yes, yes it is...

[–]philh 8 ポイント9 ポイント

Are you saying that Apple is in fact violating regulations, or are you saying that the regulations are too weak? If the former, can you point to the regulations that you believe Apple is violating?

At least with Netscape, IIRC the problem was that Microsoft was abusing their monopoly status in one area (operating systems) to get an unfair advantage in another (web browsers). Apple doesn't have a monopoly that it's abusing, so the same regulations do not apply.

[–]BraveSirRobin 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Apple used the iPod to launch iTunes, becoming the most prominent digital music distribution platform today. If the iPod had not been so successful iTunes probably won't exist any more.

But as the other commenters here are saying, the law is against anti-competitive practices, not monopolies. You don't need to have a set percentage of market share to be ruled anti-competitive.

[–]smithandjohnson 1 ポイント2 ポイント

You don't need to have a set percentage of market share to be ruled anti-competitive.

Agreed! Any company can be anti-competitive. A small mom-and-pop shop could start MomAndPop Inc whose premier product is their own smartphone platform.

They'd release it to the public, and then be downright draconian about what apps they allow in their app store or what APIs they allow developers to use.

Apple/Microsoft/Google would look like GNU in comparison to how draconian "MomAndPopOS" is!

But...

But as the other commenters here are saying, the law is against anti-competitive practices, not monopolies.

Other commenters are wrong, and being anti-competitive is not illegal by itself.

What MomAndPop Inc did in my above scenario is perfectly legal; Their brand new platform does not have relevant market share, and probably never will with those policies.

Anti-trust laws are not about "anti-competitive practices" by themselves, but only combined with abusing a monopoly.

It's perfectly okay to act like MomAndPop Inc if you have a brand new product with barely any market share. But the moment MomAndPopOS has a monopoly marketshare (which is a fuzzy definition and decided by the courts in a case-by-case basis) all of the sudden their policies are suspect to high scrutiny and will likely be found illegal.

They'd be directly abusing their monopoly vertically by using their one successful product to perpetuate its own success through anti-competitive behavior.

Another way MomAndPop Inc could go wrong is if they have a monopoly in the baked cookie industry, and perpetuate that monopoly by forcing wholesalers of their cookies to adopt MomAndPopOS in their business, for example.

They'd be indirectly abusing their monopoly horizontally by using a natural monopoly in one area (baked cookies) to perpetuate success in a different area (smartphone OSes).

Since Apple doesn't really have a monopoly in any industry, they can't be guilty of monopoly abuse, either vertically or horizontally.

[–]BraveSirRobin 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I'm sorry but you are just plain wrong on the monopoly part, you do not need a monopoly to be judged to have been anticompetitive. See Kodak verses Image Technical Services, Inc. Kodaks "monopoly" was only within their own servicing, just like Apple has a "monopoly" on iPhone app application development without having an overall monopoly on smartphones.

Eastman Kodak Company v. Image Technical Services, Inc., 504 U.S. 451 (1992), is a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held that a lack of market power in the primary equipment market does not necessarily preclude antitrust liability for exclusionary conduct in derivative aftermarkets.

The Apple App Store is almost a textbook example of a derivative aftermarket.

[–]smithandjohnson 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I'm sorry but you are just plain wrong on the monopoly part, you do not need a monopoly to be judged to have been anticompetitive.

I might be partially wrong, but definitely not plain wrong. Let me explain:

Eastman Kodak Company v. Image Technical Services, Inc., 504 U.S. 451 (1992), is a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held that a lack of market power in the primary equipment market does not necessarily preclude antitrust liability for exclusionary conduct in derivative aftermarkets.

Thanks for bringing that case to my attention! I'd never heard of it. Reading the short blurb you posted here was interesting, as was going and reading through the majority opinion itself.

The Apple App Store is almost a textbook example of a derivative aftermarket.

Possibly, but possibly not.

The "Apple App Store" is a walled garden that a lot of people despise, and a lot of people love. But it is a deliberate entity, not a derivative aftermarket.

The potential "derivative aftermarket" is 3rd party iOS apps. And there is nothing to stop anybody from developing an iOS app using whatever API or SPI they wish.

Using private SPI only precludes you from getting access to the App Store, sure. But you can still develop and run the app on your own personal devices without jailbreaking it, and you can also give away the app to a number of other people who have not jailbroken their device, and you can sell or give away the app to any number of people who have jailbroken their device (which is perfectly legal).

This is in stark contrast to the Kodak case where ITS (et al) were actually excluded from participation in repair market because Kodak prevented all reasonable ways of them doing so (not selling them the parts).

Additionally, on the consumer front of "businesses that own and operate Kodak equipment" they were left with a single choice for repairs - Kodak. Contrast this to the consumer front of "iOS device owners" who still have multiple venues for getting 3rd party apps onto their devices.

But the above arguments are merely theoretical; Legal arguments that could easily be made in court if Apple were ever sued under the same terms as the Kodak case. You may not agree with the above arguments, but they definitely make the theoretical Apple case "plainly" different from the Kodak case.

Now to touch on one point that is not remotely theoretical; The actual opinion in the Kodak case.

While Kodak imaging equipment did not have a monopoly, the majority opinion did find that there was significant information cost and equipment lock-in that prevented a user from easily switching their imaging equipment, and therefore Kodak's scheme was predatory.

Quoting from the opinion:

If the cost of switching is high, consumers who already have purchased the equipment, ... are thus "locked in,"

An iOS consumer does not have significant lock-in preventing them from switching their smartphone platform.

If Apple's approach here is ever tested in court, and they lose, and the Kodak opinion is cited at all during trial, I will come back here and eat my words.

But to say that case is exactly what's going on here and therefore I am "plainly wrong" seems quite disingenuous to me.

[–]d3b105b 9 ポイント10 ポイント

Nope, there's nothing really wrong with having the superior products for such a long time that you almost have a monopoly, it's when you start being anti-competitive that it's a problem.

[–]SurveySaysFuckYou 1 ポイント2 ポイント

The point of competition legislation is to prevent a monopoly

I always understood it as to prevent the abuse from having a monopoly, not preventing the monopoly itself.

[–]frothface 3 ポイント4 ポイント

I'll take it one step further... The point of competition legislation is to prevent an unfair monopoly; one decided by corporate strong-arming instead of user choice.

[–]viceover 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Is there a clear and present danger of Apple becoming a monopoly?

(I mean, I can walk around with a knife in my belt, as long as it's not a government building, airport, etc., and it's just fine.)

[–]slycurgus -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

They're a giant player in the smartphone space, and there is evidence that they are causing their own products to be more valuable to customers than third-party products, via active restrictions.

Whether or not there's a "clear and present danger" (phrasing which I - in my not-a-lawyer estimation - would be surprised to see in relation to this sort of law) of monopoly, there is (apparently) anti-competitive action.

[–]Trizlo 1 ポイント2 ポイント

and there is evidence that they are causing their own products to be more valuable to customers than third-party products, via active restrictions.

Umm, isn't this what all companies do?

[–]viceover 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I used that phrasing because you used a knife analogy.

[–]danvasquez29 0 ポイント1 ポイント

their market share graph would probably tell regulators there's no danger of a monopoly forming

[–]the_enginerd -1 ポイント0 ポイント

So your right and I'm not a lawyer but unless they're in direct danger of becoming a monopoly antitrust law typically just doesn't care what you do in your own little corner of the world. Call it freedom of expression.

[–]Wry_Grin -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

I have multiple knives and guns. I haven't killed anyone yet.

You trying to prevent crime by removing anything that can be used as a weapon?

My grandmother defended herself with an iron skillet. No cooking for you, eh?

[–]fodosho -1 ポイント0 ポイント

You are Sarah Palin retarded.

[–]Wry_Grin -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

And your mother raised a fool. What was your point?

[–]fodosho -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Damn son, that cut deep.

[–]Wry_Grin -1 ポイント0 ポイント

:( I'm sorry bro. Takebacksies?

[–]clrokr 6 ポイント7 ポイント

They do have a monopoly in the iOS app provider market.

EDIT: I meant that they provide the only real "app store"...

[–]awj 4 ポイント5 ポイント

That's like saying that Google has a monopoly on ads shown next to google searches.

[–]jayfehr 2 ポイント3 ポイント

They don't have a monopoly on iOS apps. They provide a service.

[–]Trizlo 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Those monsters!!!!

[–]the_enginerd 0 ポイント1 ポイント

They don't even provide a single percentage point of ios apps. They only approve or deny them.

[–]e_engel 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Apple does not have a monopoly in the smartphone space. If they did then regulatory laws would have a say,

No. Even if they did have a monopoly in the smartphone space, the regulatory laws would have nothing to say. Monopolies are perfectly legal and often necessary.

What's illegal is leveraging your monopoly for other gains.

[–]12Troops 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Don't confuse them with facts, they are trying to get their hate on!

[–]TexasLonghornz -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

Their mobile OS market share is irrelevant here. This is all inside the Apple ecosystem. What they are doing is unfairly giving their own first party application advantages that third party applications cannot use. This is anti-competitive to third party application providers. This has nothing to do with Apple v Google but Apple v Apple Developers.

What they are doing here is illegal. If they were sued they would lose. They can do what they like with their device to an extent but they can't unfairly give themselves advantages over third party developers. Their market share has no bearing on the legality of this.

[–]the_enginerd 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Where is the law that says apple needs to play by the same rules as everyone else inside their own walled garden? I don't think you're on the right track here. If developers sued apple for using private unpublished API's that Apple wrote and didn't publish apple would just laugh at them. Unpublished API are apples intellectual property and absolutely within their right to keep private. I don't understand why you think this is illegal.

[–]TexasLonghornz -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

There are three competition laws in the United States. The Sherman Antitrust Act, the Federal Trade Commission Act, and the Clayton Act. Only the first two are relevant here.

The Sherman Antitrust Act forbids "monopolization, attempted monopolization, or conspiracy or combination to monopolize." By restricting the ability by third party developers to compete with Apple's first party application they are attempting to monopolize certain areas of the application market. Third party developers cannot compete with iBooks therefor Apple has a monopoly on book reader applications.

The Sherman Antitrust Act also expressly forbids any acts that are considered harmful to competition. Can you explain how giving iBooks an advantage over third party eReaders is not harmful to competition?

The Federal Trade Commission Act also bans unfair methods of competition or unfair acts or practices. Providing API access to first party applications but denying them to third party applications and thereby providing first party applications with an unfair advantage pretty clearly meets the definitions above.

And that is in the United States law only. There are various court cases in the US that have provided broader interpretation than the strict interpretation I have provided above.

And then there is European courts who rule on anti-competitive practices far more broadly. American competition laws are incredibly strict when compared to European laws. If Apple is violating American competition laws, which they are, they are most certainly violating European laws.

iBooks is not a built in application in iOS. It is an application available on the application store just like any other third party application. Apple is not competing fairly with third party developers. If they were to bundle the application with iOS you may have an argument but it is not bundled. It is competing directly with third party eReaders and not competing fairly. Apple may laugh but they would lose in court.

[–]the_enginerd 1 ポイント2 ポイント

iBooks isn't the only way to get books on your i-device, and indeed arguably isn't even the primary way most folks do get books on their i-devices. Having private IP that you aren't sharing with others doesn't make you anticompetitive.

I bring back my Google analog: Gmail is available alongside other mail clients in the Google app store. Other developers can't replicate this functionality either as Google uses their own IP in developing and operating it. To your opinion does this mean Google can be sued and have a sure loss too?

I think you're missing a big piece of the puzzle here and it's that just because a developer comes up with his own secret sauce (even if he's the owner/curator of the app store he is 'competing' in. Doesn't make him Anticompetitive it just makes him competitive.

[–]TexasLonghornz -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Having private IP that you aren't sharing with others doesn't make you anticompetitive.

It's not private IP. The API is public. They are simply creating rules which allow them to use the API in ways that other developers cannot so that they can make a better app.

Gmail is built in to Android. It cannot be removed. This is precisely why I made the stipulation about applications as a part of the operating system. If iBooks was a part of the operating system there would be no complaint. It's not. It's offered in the app store as a download.

I'm not missing a big piece of the puzzle. This is not some "secret sauce" that Apple has come up with. The playing field is not level. Apple can utilize APIs that other developers cannot and therefore the playing is not level. This is by definition not competitive. They are competing directly with other developers in the app store and cheating by providing themselves advantages that other developers cannot use.

[–]the_enginerd 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Ultimately you can repeat yourself till your blue in the face but I'm sticking with my opinion that this is a competitive feature not an anticompetitive practice. If say Facebook writes some really cool ios code and doesn't share it but implements it in their apps that doesn't mean that theyre being anticompetitive vs apple.

This really is an example of some developers whining that they were given access to a feature and it's being taken away in some instances, arguably arbitrarily but ultimately for any reason apple pleases would be sufficient so far as I can tell.

[–]TexasLonghornz -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Ultimately you can repeat yourself till your blue in the face but I'm sticking with my opinion that this is a competitive feature not an anticompetitive practice.

It is by definition not competitive if other developers cannot make use of it in any way, shape, or form. You can contend that this does not violate any existing law but whether this is a competitive or anti-competitive practice really isn't up for debate. It's not competitive. The end.

If say Facebook writes some really cool ios code and doesn't share it but implements it in their apps that doesn't mean that theyre being anticompetitive vs apple.

You keep making this same flawed argument. Facebook has access to the same API that I have access to. If they create some really cool feature that is neat but they cannot prohibit me from making a similar really cool feature in my own way. I cannot replicate what Apple has done in iBooks. They have prohibited me from fully competing with iBooks.

[–]the_enginerd 0 ポイント1 ポイント

The library itself is private IP

[–]the_enginerd 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Gmail can be removed and in fact does not come as part of AOSP. It is in the app store for this reason.

[–]TexasLonghornz 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I have a Nexus 7 2013 model. Please post the non-rooted steps to uninstall Gmail.

[–]the_enginerd 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Step 1. Apple writes code library for uipopover Step 2. Apple implements uipopover in their own apps, also gives iPad developers access. Restricts access on non iPad iDevices. Step 3. You say this is anticompetitive. My opinion is still that Apple is totally in their right not to give developers access to any given API at any time. There is nothing stopping a developer from writing their own library and implementing it for their non iPad apps.

Having features no one else has is competitive not anticompetitive. Their apps do not necessarily perform better only differently.

I appreciate that you think apple would lose but I'm fairly confident that you're mistaken here. If you're right I'll eat my words.

[–]TexasLonghornz -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

  1. Apple creates UIPopover.
  2. Apple restricts UIPopover to iPad only thereby banning iPhone developers from using it.
  3. Apple implements UIPopover on iPhone applications in app store despite restricting it to iPad only. No other developers can use UIPopover.

Having features no one else has is competitive not anticompetitive.

This is not what is going on here and you know it.

Apple has included a feature in the API, made use of that feature in one of their app-store applications, and then PROHIBITED other developers from using that feature. This is not competitive.

[–]the_enginerd 1 ポイント2 ポイント

This is not what is going on here and you know it.

No it actually very literally is exactly what is going on here.

[–]Banane9 37 ポイント38 ポイント

Of course, it's apple! >.<

[–]MarshallBanana 42 ポイント43 ポイント

Yes, it's Apple. Who always do things this way: They test new UI features in their own apps through private frameworks first, and then they make the APIs public in a later version.

[–]jayfehr 14 ポイント15 ポイント

This exactly. The private API's either change drastically in the next version or become standard API's. They are only private because they are not set in stone and will break app compatibility when the next OS version is released.

[–]ashwinmudigonda 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Is there a history of this?

[–]jayfehr 9 ポイント10 ポイント

Yep, pretty much all their API's, starting with the first version of iOS. That's kinda a technicality since there wasn't an app store until the second, but still every single API was private before being public.

[–]MarshallBanana 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Yes, a long history of it.

[–]olevaar 3 ポイント4 ポイント

Wait, we're not hating apple anymore?

[–]ebol4anthr4x 9 ポイント10 ポイント

The anti-Apple circlejerk has become the anti-anti-Apple circlejerk

[–]InconsiderateBastard 7 ポイント8 ポイント

There is hate but there is no lawsuit to prevent them from using private APIs or API manipulation to make 3rd party apps second class citizens.

[–]_danada -1 ポイント0 ポイント

It's not like they're profiting off their developers or anything like that.

[–]jewishobo 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Well someone has to sue them, no?

[–]kiddcode 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Because its not, that's why.

[–]Draiko -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

This isn't the first time someone has leveraged hope to prolong harmful behavior.

[–]cyancynic 12 ポイント13 ポイント

This is also how new ui widgets get into the os, Apple pilots them in an app or two, formalizes the API, and makes it available for general use after deciding it is a good design. For instance this is how we got the page curl effect - it debuted in maps, the later was made public as a standard effect for all.

I don't really consider it cheating. I call it prudent engineering.

[–]aveman101 48 ポイント49 ポイント

Good grief, it's just a goddamn user interface element! And not even an important one. Other apps have used popover clones for ages. I can't see how this is anticompetitive at all.

Is Apple not allowed to develop their own APIs for private use?

[–]Googie2149 21 ポイント22 ポイント

Shhhhh, people just want a company to hate after Microsoft stopped being "literally the most evil thing ever."

Seriously though, I really can't figure out why people are causing this much of a stir over it. I wonder if this will start to circle the blogspam sites.

[–]redwall_hp 0 ポイント1 ポイント

When was this? Did Microsoft suddenly stop threatening companies that use Linux with bogus software patents yet? (e.g. extorting Amazon with undisclosed patents, or Android device manufacturers for having 8x3 file naming?)

They're the same old shitty company. They've just gotten better at PR. And the media is too busy hovering over Apple's shoulder to even report on half of it.

[–]Draiko -5 ポイント-4 ポイント

It sets a bad precedent.

[–]jayfehr 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Is every API you've ever written completely available to all your clients?

[–]Draiko -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

It is as long as they license it or comply with open source license terms.

[–]jayfehr 0 ポイント1 ポイント

What does UIPopoverController have to do with anything open source?

[–]Draiko -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

You're trying to compare me to Apple? I'm flattered but I don't think that would be a fair comparison.

[–]headShrinker 6 ポイント7 ポイント

Not really. It's an extremely small IU element, which up until today no one really cared about or even knew about. Apple designs the OS, the languages, libraries, and frameworks we all use to develop our apps on their platform. They are allowed to experiment, they are allowed some privilege, they are allowed to hold out features till the next version.

We don't like it when a company says, 'you can't do that'. That is what this is about.

[–]Googie2149 0 ポイント1 ポイント

We still don't know what this precedent is. Apple might continue to use more private APIs and disallow usage of them for everyone else, or they might actually be testing out the API on iPhones without releasing it quite yet.

Don't be so hasty to condemn Apple yet, WWDC is in less then a week, it's possible they might have an explanation then. It's also possible they don't, and they continue to keep the API private. Then would be a good time to start raising eyebrows.

[–]Draiko -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

They have a nasty history of muscling third parties and partners around.

They also have a nasty history of using dirty tactics (but that's pretty common).

[–]robertcrowther 4 ポイント5 ポイント

IIRC it was WordPerfect Corp who were angry about the secret APIs. Netscape didn't care about APIs, but did care about MS strong-arming distributors into only bundling IE with Windows. I'm not aware of Novell suing MS, but Sun sued them not for secret APIs but for non-compatible public APIs.

[–]oursland 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Distributors didn't have a choice, Microsoft claimed that they were unable to remove IE from the underlying operating system.

[–]dzamir 29 ポイント30 ポイント

No it's not. It's just a private API for an UI component that you can easily recreate.

Apple did something similar in the past more then once, to test the water for new APIs that got released in following iOS versions (eg iCloud syncing in iBooks before iCloud was announced)

[–]e_engel 8 ポイント9 ポイント

I don't understand all the upvotes, this has absolutely nothing to do with the Microsoft case.

Microsoft was illegally using its monopoly to block competitors and gain entry in other markets while this is just a company using its own private API's. There's really nothing illegal here.

I'm no Apple fan but come on.

[–]paranode 14 ポイント15 ポイント

Aaaaand the irrational anti-Apple circlejerk is out of the gate with speed.

[–]trecht 1 ポイント2 ポイント

The super sensationalized title doesn't help.

[–]napster-grey 5 ポイント6 ポイント

Can you provide a source/some background? Google didn't really bring up anything valuable

[–]BonzaiThePenguin 1 ポイント2 ポイント

That's been happening a lot in this thread.

[–]mithrandirbooga 50 ポイント51 ポイント

Actually, this is worse. Microsoft was only ever accused of having undocumented API's. Here, Apple is literally denying access to them to anyone but themselves.

[–]atrain728 67 ポイント68 ポイント

Is a company legally obligated to disclose all of it's APIs?

This particular control may work on the iPhone, but my guess is that Apple feels it only works well given a somewhat narrow set of parameters. If they simply hadn't determined that as a strict ruleset yet, you could see why they'd want to keep it out of the hands of the general public of developers.

You may not agree with Apples curation of the App marketplace, but if I had to guess this API being private goes to keeping third-party app quality high - which is a core feature of iOS in my estimation.

[–]mccoyn 23 ポイント24 ポイント

Is a company legally obligated to disclose all of it's APIs?

No. A company can't use a monopoly in one area to gain an unfair advantage in another area. Microsoft got in trouble because they had a monopoly in operating systems and they created an undocumented API to give them an advantage in office software.

Apple doesn't have a monopoly, so I don't think they are in legal trouble. This is perfectly fine. If you don't like that Apple does this, go somewhere else.

[–]CrossCheckPanda 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I know little about the law here (so feel free to correct me) but your logic doesn't seem to follow. At the time Microsoft was sued surely there was UNIX and Linux and Apple were competing OSes. How is Android and black Berry different

[–]jayfehr 0 ポイント1 ポイント

marketshare. Windows had 98%+ marketshare at the time. Other Os's existed, but they weren't really viable options.

[–]Jumba -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Doesn't Apple have a monopoly on the iDevice marketplace? As far as I know their App Store is the only one. So they do have an unfair advantage over all other companies with apps in the app store.

[–]jayfehr 1 ポイント2 ポイント

iOS is their product. You can't have a monopoly on your own product.

If iOS apps were the only apps you could run on any platform, including Android, WP and Blackberry, then they would have a monopoly.

[–]RollingGoron 1 ポイント2 ポイント

A monopoly on i products? They own them and are the sole producers of the OS code and hardware, they can do what they want with it.

That's like saying Nintendo has a monopoly on Nintendo products.

[–]TwistedPerson 10 ポイント11 ポイント

In this case, you're using the term company, but the iPhone is obviously a platform with competition, and unfair advantages are given to the owner.

The fact that Apple owns the platform does not mean they get to redefine competition laws.

[–]atrain728 12 ポイント13 ポイント

Which laws are they, per your estimation, trying to redefine?

Microsoft/Windows was embroiled in an anti-trust suit, which makes them party to a completely different set of rules. Apple/iOS is involved in no such suit.

[–]InconsiderateBastard -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

Which laws are they, per your estimation, trying to redefine? Microsoft/Windows was embroiled in an anti-trust suit, which makes them party to a completely different set of rules. Apple/iOS is involved in no such suit.

Product tying is the bundling of unrelated products. In the case of Microsoft, the unrelated products were Windows and IE. In the case of Apple products, the bundling of apps with iOS might be tying (I'm no lawyer).

Apple built a platform, iOS, and there is a market for iOS software. They are in a position to use their control of the platform to influence the market in favor of their apps. You could argue that they don't give the apps away for free because you have to buy iOS and the money you spend to do that can also cover the cost of the unrelated apps that are bundled with it.

By using their control of the platform through private APIs and API manipulation to make their apps perform better, making their apps first class citizens and 3rd party apps second class citizens, they may be running afoul of anti-trust law. Anti-competitive behavior can be illegal. Attempts to monopolize can be illegal.

I would guess those are the sorts of laws he's talking about.

EDIT: I bolded the mention that attempting to monopolize is included in the anti-trust laws. You don't have to be a monopoly to run afoul of monopoly law.

[–]coob 3 ポイント4 ポイント

I'm no lawyer

No shit. Why do people fail to realise that once you're a (government defined) monopoly, it is only then that they get to define how you do business?

[–]InconsiderateBastard -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

You should google "Attempts to monopolize" to see why you are wrong.

[–]flekkzo 2 ポイント3 ポイント

If you built your own control doing the same thing I'm sure it would be allowed in. There might already be one at cocoapods.org. I'm pretty sure all this were done because of time constraints. The iOS engineers are few and work hard.

[–]BadgerRush -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

If they are using those secret APIs on another product, to give this product an unfair advantage over the competition, then they are abusing their market power (as the OS owner).

Edit: Since IOS is not the only mobile OS in town, i.e. Apple doesn't have a monopoly, then their market power is limited and abusing it is not a crime.

[–]payco 0 ポイント1 ポイント

If this control were created wholesale in the iTunesU app, would you be complaining about Apple creating a control that it's not releasing into the wild?

If this were any other big player in the iOS market adding this control onto the private version its company-wide framework of reusable components (some of which are released under open source) would you be complaining about it?

The only difference between this UIPopover case and the first example are that Apple is sharing the control among a few of its internal apps.

The only difference between UIPopover and the second example is that the code being curated for public access is part of a larger framework that contains code needed for fundamental access to the hardware's functionality alongside convenience code to provide idiomatic functionality and UI elements. The popover is a clear example of the latter. It doesn't provide anything fundamental to creating an app, and it's easy and accepted to create your own version of the control or pull in a third party's.

Indeed, the fact that this control is included in UIKit and is being used internally on the iPhone means that there's a good chance it will eventually be made publicly usable to all iOS developers, which would not necessarily be the case if it were contained solely in each Apple app that used it, or created by another developer and placed in their company-wide platform framework with this same combination of public-with-runtime-check.

[–]Draiko -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Why bother having a strict and largely subjective app approval process?

[–]JiveMasterT 10 ポイント11 ポイント

Who gives a shit? It's a basic UI element and if Apple feels it's ready to share with 3rd party developers, they will. If they bundled it into each app individually, people would be crying about the code duplication and space it takes up.

[–]omgsus 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Actually, no it still isn't. 1) it IS documented, so just stop trying to contribute when you dont know what you are talking about. Anyone can use the class on ipad, a different method is supposed to be use don smaller devices. Apple made a small change so they could use the same class for their apps. 2) Apple is re-using code for some of their small platform applications, in an obviously non-competitive way (well, obvious to people who know what they are talking about, see 1) and 3) Anyone can, and many have, written their own popover class when it was necessary for them to do so. If you want to break HIG, you can, and you can do it in a tasteful way, no one will bitch at you. If the author put in as much effort into just writing a quick compatible popover class as they did looking up this silly crap for the article, they would have 15 different ways to legally implement their own popover UI.

[–]JSON_Voorhees -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Jesus Christ you're stupid. You really have no idea of what Microsoft was found guilty of, do you?

[–]trecht -1 ポイント0 ポイント

You've clearly got no idea what this is about.

[–]mithrasinvictus -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

They sabotaged competitors with fake incompatibility errors.

[–]hackingdreams -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

The accusation was proven in a court of law.

[–]urection 11 ポイント12 ポイント

it's literally nothing like it

congratulations

[–]ebbv 13 ポイント14 ポイント

No it isn't. Not remotely. Using private APIs is standard practice, totally normal and not anti-competitive at all. It's obvious you know nothing about software development whatsoever.

[–]omgsus 5 ポイント6 ポイント

Actually, it's not at all. What's wrong with you?

[–]hackingdreams 4 ポイント5 ポイント

To be fair, this isn't stopping your app from actually functioning, but from getting flashy stylish popups.

That being said, it's a pretty low move from Apple to hardcode their app identifiers into the API to prevent it from being used.

[–]samebrian -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

You mean to prevent having to revise their Apps.

[–]kiddcode -1 ポイント0 ポイント

No it isn't.

[–]trecht 0 ポイント1 ポイント

This is not at all similar. Apple locked down this API for the iPad only because it only fits the larger screen size. If it's called by an iPad it's OK, if it's called by an iPhone it's not. Apple wanted to use this API for their iPhone version of iBooks, so they made one exception. A dev can make this exact function in like 20 lines. Big fucking deal.

But hey! LE APPLE IS LE BAD!

[–]samebrian -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Maybe you can explain to my why my PDF locking software stops right-click functionality in MS Office programs in Windows.

Oh right, it's because MS uses their own internal APIs instead of their published public APIs.

[–]incident_report -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Microsoft never got any hurt for any suing, they just giggled their way around courts laughing with those tiny fines.

[–]nobodyman -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Not really. Microsoft's behavior only harmed competition because they had over 90% market share of desktop operating systems in their heyday. By any measure Apple does not have that kind of dominance.

  • Do they have a majority marketshare in mobile operating systems? No.
  • Do they have a majority marketshare in ebook readers? No.

[–]headShrinker -1 ポイント0 ポイント

While it was the behavior, the market impact is completely different. MS controlled a devastating amount of the OS market. Apple has a majority but no where near a monopoly.

Also MS was controlling entire browsers, not just small feature sets.

[–]cowardlydragon -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Apple is much prettier than Microsoft was, so people put up with the drama more.

Thank god for Android. I realize Google is its own soup of monopoly problems, but at least it prevents Apple from having a death grip.

[–]darkplumb90 -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

I'm amazed Apple has gotten away with so much anticompetitive shit in the past 8 years or so, it's kind of ludicrous how they get a free pass. So much of their iOS activities have been textbook illegal it isn't even funny.

[–]jayfehr 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Please cite the actions Apple took that were illegal from any textbook please.