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On magic and sexism (manaleak.com)

submitted by NOTGRUULTHENDIE

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[–]BatmanGambit 51 ポイント52 ポイント

Great article. Thanks to her for sharing her experiences.

I would argue that some of the things she describes are still just sexism, even if ignorance/arrogance is the reason for the sexism. Getting angry when rejected, calling a woman histrionic, mocking women for dressing up, leering.

But that's unimportant semantic shit compared to the rest of the points in the post.

Especially the most salient point that dickheads won't fix themselves. You have to get in their faces and make them change. Unfortunately that's going to be uncomfortable for a while. :(

[–]mtg_liebestod -14 ポイント-13 ポイント

I would argue that some of the things she describes are still just sexism, even if ignorance/arrogance is the reason for the sexism. Getting angry when rejected, calling a woman histrionic, mocking women for dressing up, leering.

So, in other words, you think we should "take the feminist approach labelling every bad encounter or disagreement as sexist"?

Maybe these individual episodes are motivated by sexism. Maybe they aren't. Usually we'll never know. In many cases it seems uncharitable (or just lazy) to assume sexism, however, and we should seek to be charitable. Even if they are sexist and we suspect them as much, that doesn't mean we should publicly label these actions sexist because all that's going to do is polarize people.

Although it's not like the author is being particularly charitable by assuming that whatever perceived neckbeardy faux-pas are attributable to these guys' literally never having interacted with women before. Social inappropriateness is a bilateral phenomenon. Pity is not some merciful alternative to spite.

[–]BookmarkSaver 21 ポイント22 ポイント

When a category of bad behavior is being applied specifically to one gender (women dressing up to play Magic) then it is sexism. It is not a symptom of sexism, it is sexism. It might be caused by something more complex than simply having a negative opinion of women, but when these actions are being applied only towards women then yes, it is a sexist issue.

[–]jjness 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Why be concerned about polarizing people? It's not like sexism is something we should learn to accept about people. It's not like someone's sexuality, where we all should be treated equal.

Being sexist, willfully or ignorantly, is bad, and people who behave in that way should be made aware of their behavior and why it is bad. If they want to change it, great! Let's help them! If not, I have no problem ostracizing them from my playgroup/friends list/social circles/whatever.

[–]mtg_liebestod 0 ポイント1 ポイント

If not, I have no problem ostracizing them from my playgroup/friends list/social circles/whatever.

Or you might be the one ostracized for being insufferably sanctimonious. Imagine trying to get non-vegans banned from your LGS for being complicit in mass murder. Do you think that would work well? If not, why not? If you considered meat-eating to be murder, would you think that this is a wise or pragmatic strategy?

Polarization is bad because it can just poison or fracture a community. I'm not saying that we have to turn a blind eye to injustice, but that we have to be practical about engaging it and more importantly understanding why the people who consider their acts to not be unjust do so.

It's like the sexy playmat debate. Maybe you can walk into your LGS and demand that these be banned and everyone will clap for you. But guess what, there are plenty of places where that won't work and harrumphing about misogynists would just be a way to console yourself in your frustration without understanding why this is a more-complex issue.

[–]jjness 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Sure, veganism is the same as sexism, gotchya.

Did you not read the part about trying to help someone understand their sexism? If they are blatantly refusing help, stubbornly going to stand on their soup box and continue their sexist behavior (whatever it might be), then by all means I'm going to encourage everybody else to make him feel as unwelcome as he might be making a woman magic player. And if I'm in some god-forsaken hellhole of a shop where EVERYBODY is going to defend some sexist asshole, I'm sure as hell going to ostracize MYSELF from that place and give my business to a shop that doesn't put up with that.

[–]mtg_liebestod 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Sure, veganism is the same as sexism, gotchya.

It illustrates the point.

And if I'm in some god-forsaken hellhole of a shop where EVERYBODY is going to defend some sexist asshole, I'm sure as hell going to ostracize MYSELF from that place and give my business to a shop that doesn't put up with that.

You probably won't be missed. You certainly wouldn't have been an effective warrior against sexism.

There's always going to be marginally-ambiguous cases, and becoming loud and obnoxious about them can backfire.

[–]jjness 0 ポイント1 ポイント

In that place, I won't be missed. And I won't miss it, either.

It's not my personal mission to fix everybody. But where I can make a difference, I will.

[–]jg821 13 ポイント14 ポイント

I do not think you understand what sexism is and how it functions.

Sexism does not exist in the hearts of 'sexists', or in isolated instances of bad behavior/awkward encounters. Sexism is something which permeates the social fabric, and is found in the common expectations of and norms of interaction towards women (vis a vis the same for men).

Someone calling a woman a 'slut' is certainly doing something sexist, but we lose sight of what is important if we focus on their words and actions, rather than what lies behind them. That person is most likely a jerk who would be a jerk regardless, and they happen to be participating in the discourse of sexism. Their insult taps into & draws its force from a set of expectations about women's behavior, as well as assumptions about how a women's style of dress or her sexuality defines her identity. These notions are, to varying degrees, in all of our heads, because sexism is primarily in the social world, not in our hearts. A joke about 'losing to a girl' is only funny when deployed in the context of existing assumptions about the relative strengths of female vs male players, and the sexism lies in those assumptions, not the joke itself. Not telling the joke is certainly better, but surely not sufficient so long as those underlying assumptions are allowed to operate.

There is little to be gained asking whether someone's bad joke about a women's appearance is 'motivated by sexism'. It is more relevant to ask whether their comments are creating a welcoming space, or a hostile one. This is not about identifying and rooting out those supposed sexists in our midst, (although for extreme cases this will surely have to happen). The goal is instead creating a positive environment for a group not well represented currently, and creating that space will require more than just abiding by a list of words and phrases which are off limits. Discerning individual dispositions is best left up to st peter and lady justice. We would do better to interrogate any assumptions we have about how a woman gamer should act, dress, or play, such that individual women have more freedom to define themselves as specific individuals, and not just reducible to some sub-category of 'female gamer'

[–]alxjrvs -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Let me just save you the trouble, kids: All of this guys' comments are super /r/theredpill from here on out.

[–]mtg_liebestod 1 ポイント2 ポイント

/r/theredpill wishes they could be so lucky.

[–]alxjrvs -1 ポイント0 ポイント

See? What does that even mean?

[–]mtg_liebestod 1 ポイント2 ポイント

It means that my understanding of these issues is a lot more sophisticated than what you commonly find on TRP. Not a particularly high bar to clear though.

[–]alxjrvs -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Ah, I see. I remember being 17, too.

[–]mtg_liebestod 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Hey now, cut the ageist bigotry.

[–]alxjrvs -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Oh, but it isn't ageist.