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[–]andlife 222 ポイント223 ポイント

This is a question that should definitely be made illegal. What you were wearing is not relevant to this guy's following you around. You are free to wear whatever you like (or if you're in some places, like my province) you're also free to not wear anything on top. This guy's stalking would not be justified either way.

I mean, if I set a guy on fire, would the police ask him what he was wearing at the time? Maybe he shouldn't have worn such flammable clothing.

[–]ajdnjsdnjsndnwudnuwq -30 ポイント-29 ポイント

Making it illegal would be very silly. For various reasons including freedom of speech. Its a dumb question but it could give the police insight into the situation. It does not mean that they are blaming the person. The actual problem is with society in general & the differences between the way the sexes act & are treated. Removing a question from the people trying to help you is not helpful in the slightest, we will get there eventually.

[–]monnayage 20 ポイント21 ポイント

"Freedom of speech" in no way applies here. It's illegal for many people in various professions to ask certain questions. A job interviewer can't ask if you're married. A landlord can't ask about your ethnicity.

[–]vvomit 56 ポイント57 ポイント

People don't act the way they do because you're dressed a certain way. This is the same philosophy used in victim blaming. Rapists don't rape because you wore a certain outfit that day, stalkers don't stalk because you were dressed differently, they do it because they're rapists and stalkers. It doesn't give insight into the situation whatsoever. The aggressor is still the aggressor and his actions don't become excusable because of the victims outfit.

[–]your_mind_aches 13 ポイント14 ポイント

I'm a guy (sorry, I'm sure there's too much ignorant front page males on your sub now, so I'll try to make it brief) in an all boys secondary school and honestly, some of the things these guys say (not in the company of girls, of course) make me wonder if they could be future rapists. It can't be just teenage hormones right?

[–]619shepard 10 ポイント11 ポイント

It's probably a combination of teenage hormones, socialization and a desire to fit in. While the vast majority are just blowing smoke it does become dangerous because it lets those who will become/are abusers flourish in an environment where their behaviors are seen as right.

It would be super hard, but the best thing you could do is break the mold. A well timed expression of disgust can be the best thing.

[–]your_mind_aches 8 ポイント9 ポイント

Yeah, I'm usually just quiet, studying or watching Person of Interest during the lunchtimes, but sometimes I do speak up and tell them why they are wrong. So I hope I'm doing okay.

[–]durtysox 2 ポイント3 ポイント

I just want you to know. I love that you give a shit. You would be surprised how much effect another boys well-timed opinion or comment has. It's worth being a tiny bit brave over. Thank you.

Yeah, it's a great show.

[–]vvomit 9 ポイント10 ポイント

Yeah there is a huge difference between a spike in testosterone and wanting to actually sexually abuse women. Often you'll hear shit thrown around like "Yo man I got RAPED" in the context of sports or gaming which in itself is problematic, but not necessarily a surefire indicator of someone who is going to be sexually abusive. On the other hand, one that I remember from high school was a dude making a really extensive "joke" about spiking a girls drink and raping her. That's something you should really look out for, it's beyond the point of something that is just said for the sake of being edgy and instead has been thought out to the point of having a "plan" per se. If you have any specific instances of that stuff you want my advice on, feel free to inbox me! Your question wasn't ignorant at all and I'm always happy to help. :)

[–]your_mind_aches 8 ポイント9 ポイント

Oh and yeah, sure! I do have a lot of questions about feminism, teenagers and even some other gender-related stuff and nobody to ask about that really. So I will save your name and PM you if I need to ask anything. I'd just feel embarrassed posting the question in the sub

[–]your_mind_aches 4 ポイント5 ポイント

Meh. In fact everyone says "that test raped me" or "someone bring Vaseline" (which is petroleum-based so is therefore not good for this kind of use I think) or "prepare your anuses" or bullshit like that. ._. Even my friends do it and it is so goddamn irritating!

But what I mean is sorta "In ten years, I'm gonna rape you." both guys smiling and obviously joking, but. It's messed up. Or something about seeing a girl in some scantily-clad clothing being "f*ckable". Rape jokes to me are just distasteful. I hate rape being reduced to such a menial thing in dialogue.

[–]vvomit 4 ポイント5 ポイント

You're well beyond your years and that's a good thing. Those kinds of jokes are really immature, misogynistic, and they trivialize sexual abuse. They are absolutely distasteful. The best thing to do for now would be to surround yourself with like-minded individuals, and if you feel comfortable, speaking out when people say those kinds of things. From my experience, men tend to be less on the defensive when another man calls them out on something problematic. The ones targeting girls and calling them "f*ckable" and are especially worrisome in that it's objectifying and, well, frankly it's really creepy.

Although not all people will grow out of edgy humor, once you graduate and move on from high school you'll probably be able to meet a lot more people who come from the same viewpoint as you. I've found that a lot of artists are cool, and a lot of punk and noise scenes are really GSM friendly, female friendly and try their best to create a community devoid of "tough guys" and misogynistic stuff like that. Again, if you have any questions don't hesitate to inbox me. I had a lot of similar folks to tolerate on a daily basis when I was in high school and I know how stressful it can be.

[–]your_mind_aches 2 ポイント3 ポイント

First question: what is GSM? Not a type of mobile network, I'm assuming?

Also, I'm not really interested in "punk" culture. The music is nice, mostly. But yeah. Also I'm in a different country... one that's biggest cultural event has tons of sexist, yet... possibly anti-sexist (you'll see what I mean when I PM you) values. But not much of a punk culture.

Secondly, I am surrounded with people I am comfortable with. These are (mostly) good guys but the "that exam was rape!!!111" is just so goshdarn stupid to me! I think there would be no problem if they weren't my friends/people I'm on good terms with. I think they'll grow out of it.

Oh and they didn't call the girls that to their face. In case you thought that. They were apparemtly apparently very polite to them, just noting their atrractiveness in an... unsavoury way.

EDIT: The girl was a friend of theirs, apparently. That invited one of them to her house. Not just a random girl on the street. Again for clarification. I heard that conversation years ago.

[–]vvomit 2 ポイント3 ポイント

GSM is gender and sexual minorities, basically LGBTQA+ with less letters.

Even if they aren't saying it to the girls, they're still talking about them in a way that's really fucked up. If you feel confident enough to call them out when they say things of that nature about girls, or when they make those kinds of rape jokes, I totally encourage it. It seems like you are pretty good friends with them anyways so they probably wouldn't be super upset about it, and if you're able to help them realize that the things they're saying are really problematic it will only help improve the environment you surround yourself with. :)

[–]your_mind_aches 1 ポイント2 ポイント

Nah, those guys were some older guys who were talking near me when I was like 13. So they were different. Can't even remember what they look like.

And oh, okay about the GSM thing. I don't think that's possible in my country. Our LGBT community is small and not vocal. And the one gay person (that I know of) at school is someone I don't like. Also, it shames me to say that gay is still used as an insult left, right and centre. It's sad because polls showed that our population is less homophobic than the U.S. on average (U.S. is about 52%, we are about 38%) yet there are no LGBT clubs at schools and homosexuality is still technically illegal (though the law is completely disregarded). Hell, people I know who are not homophobic are still always "lol gay" or whatever. Just. Gah. I need to rant about this aloud.

And hm. Maybe I will voice it. But I don't think that'll stop them. They'll grow out of it.

[–]jefecaminador1 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I mean, context is always key. Words hold multiple meanings depending on the context in which they are used. So while you may find certain words distasteful or disgusting, the person uttering those words, may use them to express an idea completely different from what you are picturing.

[–]warmarrer 1 ポイント2 ポイント

The only reason I could see to ask is to establish a pattern if there are reported rapes/assaults/stalking incidents where the man isn't found. If a guys has a "type" it can allow police to stage a sting operation or warn the public.

[–]durtysox 0 ポイント1 ポイント

But that's never the reason it is asked. It just never ever ever ever is. It never is. It isn't. That's not why they are asking.

[–]bondagepadowan -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

I hate to throw myself in to the lion's den here but (please correct me if I'm wrong!) are you saying that someone who is already messed in the head won't be additionally fueled by an appearance that he/she finds attractive? I'm not saying it's the victim's fault for wearing whatever she was or was not wearing at the time. It's just something that makes me wonder. Wouldn't someone who has motivation to stalk/rape a person be at least slightly motivated by physical appearance? That's all they have to go on in choosing a victim in the first place. It's a load of bull that the question is asked in the way that it is, but it helps police make profiles and identify serial criminals. They often have a "type" or a trigger appearance that they go for. It should never be used to shame a victim.

[–]throwwaaay 27 ポイント28 ポイント

Rape and harrassment isn't actually about attraction. It's about exerting power over someone else. Physical appearance doesn't have nearly as much to do with it as you think.

[–]throwwaaay 16 ポイント17 ポイント

Also: "Around 1980, Nicholas Groth, director of Forensic Mental Health Associates, established a typology of rapists. Groth arrived at his conclusions by distilling his observations of more than 3,000 sex offenders over the course of 25 years of practice. (Most of his patients, Groth points out, were not sexually deprived at the time they committed rape, thereby exploding that most common of rape myths: that men rape because they're unable to get sex any other way.)

In a general sense, rapists fall into three motivational types: anger, power, and sadism. In anger assaults, the rapist is getting even for "some wrong he feels has been done to him, by life, by his victim at the time. He's in a frame of rage and attacks someone sexually." The anger rape is usually unpremeditated and impulsive, but the impulse drives the rapist into excessive force: the victim is punched, choked, and kicked into submission. Most such offenders derive little pleasure from the act, says Groth, but "they want to degrade their victims, and sex is something bad, dirty, the worst thing you could do to someone. That reflects a lot of our values in society."

An anger rapist could be discouraged by a potential victim who yells at him or puts up a physical struggle, thanks to the unpremeditated nature of the attack. Because the aggressor may not yet have fully decided to pursue this course of action, resistance may well change his mind. Here, even a half-hearted attempt might prove to be all it takes to end the assault. On the other hand, the rage the attacker is feeling might well be further fed by active resistance — this could be taken as yet another instance of one more person trying to deny him something he wants.

Power rape, according to Groth, is a form of compensation, committed usually by men who feel unsure of their competence. Rape gives them a sense of mastery and control. Power rapists usually hunt for victims or seize opportunities that present themselves unbidden. A power rapist is unlikely to be discouraged by resistance because his whole self image is wrapped up in his attempt to prove mastery. A woman who chooses to fight one of these had better do a darned good job of it, because she could well end up fighting for her life.

Groth defines his third type, sadistic rape, as eroticized aggression perpetrated by those whom the very act of forcible sex excites in ways that consensual sex can't. "If the anger components of aggression are eroticized," he explains, "then you see sadistic acts, such as deliberate sexual torture, using an instrument to rape the victim." A sadistic rapist is interested in inflicting pain and lasting harm. Any countering aggression on the part of the victim could well add to the attacker's enjoyment of the experience, prompting him to further acts of depravity in an effort to provoke further resistance."

[–]bondagepadowan 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I appreciate the input! Could you tell me more or link me to where I can find out some statistics or studies?

[–]feistyceratopsidae 10 ポイント11 ポイント

this was posted in this sub the other day.

EDIT: I also just found this nice summary/collection of information. Relevant portions: only 4.4% of rapes involve "provocative" behavior on the part of the victim. And most convicted rapists don't even remember what the victim was wearing. All of which leads me to believe that the clothing questions are more of a distraction than anything.

[–]throwwaaay 5 ポイント6 ポイント

Here's a fact sheet from a rape crisis page. Here's an interesting link citing multiple studies; the last bullet point on the page flat out says that 89% of rapists themselves say that attractiveness was not a factor in their choice of victim.

[–]throwwaaay 2 ポイント3 ポイント

Another link - the first section on typology does a good job explaining what I'm talking about, also scroll down to the "research on convicted rapists" section and "social factors". Reference links included at the bottom (obvs).

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    [–]onceastreetrat 7 ポイント8 ポイント

    This is still about power, corrective rape is still about power and not about clothing.

    [–]theastrosloth 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    In Africa or the middle east, short skirts are uncommon & considered inappropriate. Women get raped more often when they dress in this fashion

    Do you have a source for this? I'd like to know more.

    [–]PWL73316 -3 ポイント-2 ポイント

    It's about both. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of men have had an intrusive thought or two about forcing sex out of sexual frustration.

    [–]serra_avenger 8 ポイント9 ポイント

    I read recently that women wearing 'conservative' clothing are slightly more likely to be targeted by rapists--because women wearing that type of clothing are more likely to be passive and easier to manipulate, making them better targets (particularly for date rapists).

    I can't remember the source, does anyone know what I'm referring to? I think I saw it posted on this sub.

    [–]LordSpaceTaco 7 ポイント8 ポイント

    There are actual articles that suggest victims are chosen for more clothing, not less. Something to do with picking someone who seems docile, because women who are more likely to show skin tend to also be more confident (or so they said.) I will look for the article now.

    [–]vvomit 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    You make an interesting point, but I think most serial abusers who have a "type" don't necessarily base their type on clothing and instead on things like body type, race, etc. I also think the "what were you wearing" comment is almost always asked in an accusatory manner because we as a society understand certain garments to be seen as "provocative" - clearly an item of clothing can't "provoke" someone to commit sexual abuse. It's definitely something to explore in the case of serial abuse, but maybe more as a last resort than an initial question.

    [–]bondagepadowan [score hidden]

    Wow! Thank you all for the positive and informative replies. I have a lot of reading to do!

    [–]mastermalinger 0 ポイント1 ポイント

    So what kind of clothing universally attracts a rapist/stalker/abuser? What clothing would be considered a trigger and what clothing would be deemed "not relevant"?

    [–]bondagepadowan [score hidden]

    I'm not saying that there is a universal answer for this. It's very much dependent on the aggressor. The question seems justified in my mind if it is used only for profiling aggressors, not victims. Something like "This woman was attacked by a stranger on the street. This is what she was wearing. We'll file it away and if another woman gets attacked in the same area wearing similar clothes we may have a serial attacker on our hands."

    [–][deleted]

    [deleted]

      [–]kochipoik 2 ポイント3 ポイント

      Someone who is genuinely asking a question like that isn't a victim blamer

      [–]bondagepadowan 0 ポイント1 ポイント

      I'm prepared. I know that I'm not. Hopefully I'll gain some knowledge in the process!

      [–]mastermalinger 8 ポイント9 ポイント

      Yeah freedom of speech is not about that at all. There are plenty of questions that are illegal for professionals to ask in.their dealing with civilians. Such as a landlord/employer asking, "What religion do you practice?"

      [–]andlife 15 ポイント16 ポイント

      Ok. I'll give you that. If the question helped the police do their jobs, I'm all for it. But the context of the story doesn't make it sound that way. It sounds more like a judgement call.

      [–]sunny_bell 19 ポイント20 ポイント

      It really serves no purpose other than to slut shame. There is no way what she was wearing (especially since she is free to wear whatever she wants because she's, you know, grown). It's a stupid question and serves no actual investigative purpose. It's irrelevant to his poor behavior. I have guys creep on me whether I'm wearing short shorts and a tank top, or baggy jeans and a giant hoodie, it's irrelevant to the situation.

      And considering there are questions that are illegal to ask in INTERVIEWS (like "do you have children?") then yeah, they could ban this question. Easily.

      The only time "what was this person wearing?" is a relevant investigative question is if the person is MISSING and you are trying to find them.

      [–]kimmers87 1 ポイント2 ポイント

      I'm leaning this way with you, I'm curious if he followed others and if they were trying to find a trend based on general dress and appearance. There could be other ways to word the question but I don't think cops are always out to victim blame however they also can't share the details of other investigations.