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A PSA: rape happens...a lot. (self.TwoXChromosomes)

submitted by Langlie

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[–]John_Wilkes -48 ポイント-47 ポイント

That's awful that happened to you. However, I'd just like to raise an example in the other direction, so that we don't automatically discredit those who are falsely accused. My brother in law was at a party and had casual sex with a girl he met there. Three days later he was arrested because she accused him of rape. While he was out on bail her brothers and a bunch of their friends severely beat him up and he was hospitalised, and was lucky not to get brain damage. About a week later she admitted to the police that it had been consensual, but she had a boyfriend and didn't want to admit to cheating on him and that the accusation had spiralled out of control.

Now, I get this is a female oriented sub, and I'm not trying to take away from the point that rape happens far too often and it's terrible. I just want to say that we shouldn't get into the mindset of suggesting even those "falsely accused" are actually really guilty.

EDIT: I only ask for slight balance and I give a personal example of a man that almost got brain damage from an unfair accusation. I caveat this heavily with saying that I'm not trying to diminish any other point. And I still get downvoted to hell.

[–]the-infinite-jester 31 ポイント32 ポイント

this is valid, and shit like this does happen, but not nearly as often. it's terrible when it does, and it hurts the accused and it hurts all future victims who might be afraid to come forward for fear of being called a liar.

there are already so many factors that prevent women from coming out about their sexual assault. I was assaulted at a frat party when I was 19 by an all-American lacrosse player there on an athletic scholarship. I couldn't vocalize it then, but part of the problem was that I was 'just' a writing major, and my role in our collegiate society was nowhere near as valued as his. you see it now in prominent cases like Stuebenville or with Sandusky- these men (especially athletes) are valued so much more in their communities than their victims, no matter how horrible their actions.

this kind of trivialization of a victim's worth along with the personal nature of the crime potentially being exposed to public scrutiny, along with the very real possibility that the victim will be called a liar and ruin their own reputation makes it ridiculously scary. most victims- like me- internalize it. I definitely found it easiest to blame myself, my levels of drunkenness, my stupidly believing he just 'wanted to show me his room', my flirting with him all night. like, of course he forced me to the ground and held my head while he face-fucked me. I was being a cock-tease, and that's not very fair, now is it? also, the kid was a brilliant lacrosse player, I should have been proud that he showed interest in me.

he probably would have said that I wanted it, if I had come forward about it. he probably would have been believed. I probably would have been made out to look like a desperate slut looking for attention. after all, at that point my ex had already distributed a video he had recorded of us fucking without my knowledge that got me black-listed at a couple frats for indecency. I was new to sex and very free about who I slept with- there would have been plenty of guys willing to say I was 'easy'.

ugh, wow, sorry, what a fucking tangent. I just get really into these conversations, you know? totally off-topic, but I'll just leave the whole comment here anyway because I'm sure it applies to a lot of what I wanted to say on this thread anyway. but yeah, false accusations happen. people think they happen more than they do because real victims don't come forward for millions of reasons, so the face value comparison makes it look like all women are lying, manipulative bitches about it. sorry for what happened to your brother-in-law, but his case not nearly as common as people think. you will probably be downvoted heavily for your comment, as it can seem a bit out-of-place and defensive on this thread.

tl;dr: it's super hard for victims to come forward, people who lie about being raped make life harder for all future victims.

[–][deleted]

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    [–]zaurefirem 8 ポイント9 ポイント

    But you are trying to diminish nut only the victims, but other women on this sub. You've read and replied to multiple comments made by women who have been sexually assaulted and you're still thinking that many victims are lying.

    You're also saying that this sub is full of man-hating women, and that's patently untrue. We may have men we hate individually for various reasons (including rape) but to paint this subreddit as collectively hating all men ever...yeah, no. You're wrong.

    [–]dripless_cactus 6 ポイント7 ポイント

    Here's a suggestion for you: Don't ask people to keep an open mind and then in the next sentence make an insulting generalization about the people who disagree with you.

    If you're curious, the reason I downvoted you for your original comment is because your comment matches the same off-base and irrelevant rhetoric that we so often hear on reddit and which was already mentioned in the OP and top comments. We are talking about women who experience sexual violence. That includes rape, assault, street/sexual harassment. This is the vast majority of women. Topics that are not relevant to this discussion include: Men who are falsely accused, men who are raped, or really anything related to men as a subject. This subreddit is about women and women's experiences and realities.

    edit: minor edits for clarity and grammar

    [–]John_Wilkes -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

    Bringing up examples of false accusations is indeed off-base and irrelevant when it's just in response to a story of someone's rape. When the discussion was about false accusations, of course it is relevant.

    Topics that are not relevant to this discussion include: Men who are falsely accused, men who are raped, or really anything related to men as a subject. This subreddit is about women and women's experiences and realities.

    Men are not welcome to add any personal experiences at all about women's issues. Got it.

    [–]dripless_cactus 2 ポイント3 ポイント

    Don't act all pissy and pouty. Men are welcome to add their personal experiences about rape as it relates to the women they know. But most of time the issue of false accusations and male rape are a derailment to the fears and reality sexual violence that women face.

    [–]John_Wilkes [score hidden]

    But most of time the issue of false accusations and male rape are a derailment to the fears and reality sexual violence that women face.

    Yes, they are. Which is why I was very careful to make clear that mine was not doing that and to acknowledge how awful the prevalence of rape was. If I was an unpleasant person I could say that all sorts of posts on here are "pissy and pouty", but those posts are by women, so that is (rightfully) considered rude and "invalidating our experiences". Guy does it? Fair game.

    [–]dripless_cactus [score hidden]

    Guy does it? Fair game.

    Always the victim I see. That comment about "pissy and pouty" was not about gender. There are women who are pissy and pouty and there are men who are also pissy and pouty. That is a comment on behavior and tone, not your penis.

    [–]whatwatwhutwut [score hidden]

    A few things to consider:

    1) Rape is under-reported. If you speak to your peers you might be surprised about their experiences and whether or not they reported the events.

    2) False accusations are greatly over-reported. I think that in just about every single instance of rape, the perpetrator denied the events.

    3) False accusations are frequently cited on Reddit. This post was created explicitly with the intent to educate/counter the prominence of this viewpoint.

    In light of this post being made to counter the dismissal of the frequency of rape, the presence of rape culture, etc. Your response to the post was to cite one instance when a rape was falsely reported. This may have seemed the appropriate place to share this story (after all, both involve rape), but that was a mistake. This isn't a discussion thread about rape. It's a discussion thread for women to share their experiences with rape, sexual assault, harassment, etc.

    It's more a public-service announcement than anything else. Your comment(s) are dismissive no matter how you try to phrase it/them. It effectively says "Your experiences are all horrible and while I acknowledge that, false-accusations can be horrible too." The problem is that one is common (and not recognized as such) and the other is uncommon (and woefully over-emphasized on this site).

    Edit: Frankly, your response to the downvotes stinks of an entitled attitude. Did you consider for even a moment that that chestnut might not be appropriate in a forum where people are sharing their very real rape experiences?

    [–]catch-24 3 ポイント4 ポイント

    First I thought you didn't deserve the downvotes...until I saw you call a whole sub (or most of one) man-haters. That's untrue and uncalled for, even if you got a few harsh downvotes.

    [–]John_Wilkes -1 ポイント0 ポイント

    I'm sorry. That was partially a response to the number of private messages I got telling me that this was a women's sub and I should take my male views elsewhere. I connected that with the mass downvotes for a personal story with a male victim. It was probably unfair.

    [–]heatheranne 1 ポイント2 ポイント

    If you are receiving harassing PMs, you can click the report link under them to bring them to the attention of the admins.

    [–]mightyflynn 22 ポイント23 ポイント

    There is a lot of balance in this thread. This whole post was to balance it the other way. and you posted in direct response to a moving, sad story from an actual rape victim. I think that explains the votes. We all have badly ruined comments now and then.

    [–]Slyndrr 30 ポイント31 ポイント

    But they are really guilty a big part of the time. That is what the whole "rape culture" is about. It's about normalising rape. In some cultures it's about how "you can't be raped if you're married to the guy", in other cultures it's "you can't be raped if you previously had sex with the guy", or "you can't be raped if you're unconscious" or "you can't be raped if you and your rapist were seen drinking together and laughing" or "you weren't raped, I saw you smile last week", or "he didn't rape her, I know him he's a great guy"..

    Some of those examples may not have been rapes, no. But going by statistics and not gut feeling, the vast majority will have been. Yet the voices we listen to as a culture and give more space to are the voices crying it's a false accusation, that it's impossible, that it wasn't a "real" rape anyways..

    [–]whatwatwhutwut 6 ポイント7 ポイント

    People are aware of the fact that false rape accusations exist, but I think that the larger issue isn't the false accusation but the vigilante response to the accusation. Rather than waiting to see what the courts decided (wherein she would have retracted her accusation and it would have been resolved), the accuser's brothers took it upon themselves to dole out punishment. If they had let the system do its work, they would have avoided assaulting and innocent victim.

    Now, here is why this isn't the best post to share this view: This view is already out there. The point of this particular post is to educate people on the frequency of rape. It happens. It is very, very common. That false rape accusations exist in a tiny minority of cases is irrelevant to this point. The number of people denying the veracity of rape accusations is disproportionately greater than the number of people supporting rape victims when you account for the number of rape accusations that actually turn out to be false.

    Yes, you are trying to provide a counter-point, but the problem is that it's not necessary. It's already out there. I can't tell you how many times I've spoken to people who were in absolute denial of the frequency of rape. Furthermore, those same individuals cite REPORTED rape statistics while even just talking to my female friends suggests far too many women leave the incidents unreported.

    [–]StandardGirl 18 ポイント19 ポイント

    I think the reason you are being downvoted is because you playing devils advocate is something we see ALL the time here... not in this sub as much but all over Redditt. That story you just told, I see it all the time. We know there are false claims that ruin people, we admitted that a lot in here, but your comment is so out of place and main stream Redditt and it's not at all helpful to what we are discussing. It's that standard 'men get hurt too.' comment that most woman find obnoxious and usually downvote in threads where you can't notice it, here, where woman reign, you get what you get.

    [–][deleted]

    [deleted]

      [–]StandardGirl 5 ポイント6 ポイント

      We argue. Different groups disagree. People have a hard time with empathy for someone so different from themselves. I hope you aren't put off and think that it's all because you are a man. That's not fair. I think it's strange to transition from an all female community to the spot light. You did validate her pain. You did offer an alternative. I think a statement rather than that story may have had a better outcome. You are correct in saying people place blame to quickly, but in those examples given above, those men all assumed guilt the moment they raped. The stories you responded to were 1st hand accounts of rape. The blame is exactly where it belongs.

      [–]klueit [score hidden]

      where john posted his story was a bit harsh, it was right after many personal stories of women being abused. Definitely should have held off on his story for another place or time, too sensitive of a moment for sure. I think alot of people downvoted it because they where touched by the stories before it and didn't want his comment to take away from that. Not because they don't care about the sadness in his story.

      [–]klueit [score hidden]

      I think alot of people downvoted it because they where touched by the stories before it and didn't want his comment to take away from that. Not because they don't care about the sadness in his story, these are women not monsters =P

      [–]John_Wilkes [score hidden]

      I think alot of people downvoted it because they where touched by the stories before it and didn't want his comment to take away from that. Not because they don't care about the sadness in his story, these are women not monsters =P

      It was actually a horrible time for us as a family during the time he was in a coma. I still remember my wife crying each night, and I should never have brought this up on reddit. I made very clear I wasn't taking away from her story and specifically said that rape happens too often and is terrible. Yet my experience has been completely invalidated here.

      I was not simply replying to a rape story with a false accusal story. We were specifically talking about false accusals. I get that they happen a lot less often than actual rapes. That doesn't mean you can just dismiss a horrible personal experience as something that shouldn't be shared. I really hate most of this sub right now.

      [–]theastrosloth [score hidden]

      I made very clear I wasn't taking away from her story and specifically said that rape happens too often and is terrible.

      Just because you say you're not taking away from her story doesn't make it so. See also "I'm not racist but..."

      I'm very sorry for what happened to your family but you told the story in a totally inappropriate place, got downvoted, got butthurt about it and continue to post about it with zero understanding of why it's offending people.

      [–]klueit [score hidden]

      i am not trying to say that you where taking away from their stories, I'm saying that is how they probably felt. which is why you got downvotes. Don't feel sorry for yourself that your story did not get heard the way you intended. It deserves just as much compassion as their's. It's just that the timing was off. Don't get upset that I am saying that either, this thread is for women to share women stories and for these women to receive healing compassion. You and your family also deserve this compassion, so please, I encourage you to share your story again sometime where there is an audience more open to hearing it, I know I was.

      [–]dauthik -4 ポイント-3 ポイント

      I agree with you for what it's worth and I don't think it derails to the conversation, it contributes. Just because rape happens too often with too much surrounding silence does not mean not assuming guilt is not just as critical of a point. But I think it's important to keep in mind that you should listen to whoever is telling you their story, whether it's an accused aggressor or a victim. It hurts when people don't believe or listen to what happened to you, from both sides.

      [–]WHATEVERS2009 [score hidden]

      The issue for me is that when I hear a story about rape, I do not focus on the guilt of the accused. I focus on the well being of the victim. There is a reason that person feels the need to be open about their experience. Getting to the root of that is more important than yelling at some other person that, chances are, will never see the rammifications of what they have done (whether it was a false accusation and some other issue is at stake or it was a true one and the victim does not want to/can't take legal action). It is up to the accuser/victim whether or not the accused should face any kind of action, in my mind. It is more important to work with and empower the victim than anything else.

      Edit: Sorry ran off with that idea a little bit-context being that I feel these kinds of discussions happen more often when people focus on the accused as opposed to the victim. /u/John_Wilkes over here responded to a story about a victim (which was in a series of comments with stories about victims) with a story about an accused man, somewhat invalidating and subverting the point of the original story imho.