1
133
134

Bitcoin... (i.imgur.com)

submitted by BrownShed

sorted by:
best
best
トップ
新着
注目
論争中
古い順
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]Rogges 10 ポイント11 ポイント

You can be your own bank with bit coin? Gee, I thought you'd need billions and financial experts but I guess if you have a few bitcoins you're good to go.

[–]Krivvan 9 ポイント10 ポイント

I'm not condoning what that person was doing, but that statement refers to being able to transfer money worldwide and secure your money with backups and keys cryptographically without relying on security services like a bank does. As in some of the services that a bank does for you normally.

It obviously has nothing to do with actually being in the business of being a bank."

The tradeoff is that some people want a third party to take care of those things, but "being your own bank" appeals to some people who don't want any third party to have control.

[–]mrspiffy12 1 ポイント2 ポイント

I think I'll keep my nice federally insured deposits.

[–]Krivvan 2 ポイント3 ポイント

That's fine, and encouraged by everyone but some of the more idiotic of /r/Bitcoin.

The advantages and potential success of Bitcoin don't come as a replacement to traditional banking, but as a system to be integrated or used in parallel.

The amount you keep in Bitcoin would be analogous to the amount you keep in Paypal. You don't keep anywhere near all your wealth on Paypal.

[–]mrspiffy12 -2 ポイント-1 ポイント

Just so long as you understand that in order for bitcoin to function as any sort of legitimate currency or parallel to currency, it will have to shed its speculative value, which is almost all of the value of bitcoin as it currently has almost no intrinsic or utility value.

All of those people who who've invested their life savings in bitcoin will still lose it, even if it still retains some utility as a strangely redundant e-currency.

[–]Krivvan 1 ポイント2 ポイント

The question of whether there is any intrinsic value is interesting because it currently acts as a sort of hybrid between commodity money and fiat money. Fiat money also has no intrinsic value, but people trust that it will keep its ability to purchase goods and services. It will be interesting to see whether Bitcoin (or any other similar cryptocurrency) can maintain that trust while remaining decentralized. There is no previous example we can point to as to how this will work out, so I try not to make any strong predictions.

As for it being redundant or not, some people see it being decentralized as being reason enough to consider it superior to existing systems, but the fact that the it is programmable and the blockchain is flexible provides a variety of applications that no one has really implemented or even thought of yet. For example, the Bitcoin payment system can currently be used to write contracts that are permanently embedded within the Bitcoin blockchain where it cannot be modified and can have very specific Bitcoins tied to that contract.

You can also create systems where you need multiple private keys to enact a transaction. So you can implement some form of third party consumer protection while keeping the third party from having full control of your funds.

There has also been some talk and experimentation at using the computational work done by Bitcoin miners to prevent fraudulent transactions and maintain network consensus for other purposes simultaneously solving mathematical problems and etc.

The fact that it significantly saves on costs previously directed to manual fraud prevention and general administration means that the basic technology could also be integrated into existing companies and systems.

But yeah, anyone who invests their life savings into Bitcoin is a complete idiot.

[–]mrspiffy12 0 ポイント1 ポイント

The question of whether there is any intrinsic value is interesting because it currently acts as a sort of hybrid between commodity money and fiat money. Fiat money also has no intrinsic value, but people trust that it will keep its ability to purchase goods and services.

Wrong, current currencies are tied in value to the wealth, political power, institutional integrity, and future revenue streams of the government that issues them.

As for it being redundant or not, some people see it being decentralized as being reason enough to consider it superior to existing systems, but the fact that the it is programmable and the blockchain is flexible provides a variety of applications that no one has really implemented or even thought of yet.

Its only current utility is tied to conversion to the dollar. I can't comment on future applicability as a sort of e-currency, but it will still require massive price correction. You may be right, but I mainly advocate that you don't hold it as an investment, it will only go poorly for you.

There has also been some talk and experimentation at using the computational work done by Bitcoin miners to prevent fraudulent transactions and maintain network consensus for other purposes simultaneously solving mathematical problems and etc.

The current risk is still insane.

But yeah, anyone who invests their life savings into Bitcoin is a complete idiot.

I would agree. Again, I can't predict whether it might have some applicability or positive impact in the future as you suggest, but do not hold it as an investment. Very bad idea.

[–]PoliticalDissidents 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Yes bitcoins value right now is mostly speculation. But last I checked the dollar has no intrinsic value. It is only used because others are willing to accept it. This same things applies to bitcoin. Except unlike the dollar bitcoin isn't just a currency, it is a free open source payment platform thus bringing us back to OPs post in that you are your own bank as you now have the ability to participate in a global economy and transfer funds anywhere in the world. Like a bank, only for free and by yourself.

[–]mrspiffy12 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

  1. The dollar is not an investment per say.

  2. The dollar is a currency with high utility. Hence the difference.

  3. The dollar is backed with the full might, faith, wealth, and future revenue streams of the US government.

you now have the ability to participate in a global economy and transfer funds anywhere in the world.

You can do that with the dollar with far less risk and lower implied transactions costs. There are reasons we have controls in place for moving money, and most of it is to protect the owner of that money or the person receiving it.

Like a bank, only for free and by yourself.

Sure, If a bank had no utility in its deposits and insane risk entirely held by the depositor.

[–]PoliticalDissidents 0 ポイント1 ポイント

The dollar is a currency with high utility. Hence the difference.

Bitcoin does have a huge set of uses for international payment so it got the utility. Transferring USD is far from instant unlike with bitcoin.

The dollar is backed with the full might, faith, wealth, and future revenue streams of the US government.

Yes. In fact people like bitcoin because it is not backed by a government but you are right in that there is no economy backing it (well there is but its real small)

The dollar is not an investment per say.

Yep With dollars you will loose money if you just sit on them. Bitcoin is only viewed as an investment because people see it filling the above desires.

[–]mrspiffy12 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Bitcoin does have a huge set of uses for international payment so it got the utility. Transferring USD is far from instant unlike with bitcoin.

You can transfer it around all you want in some sort of strange, pointless game of old maid, but you can't actually use it for anything beyond the rare novelty item. Any current use is tied to conversion to the dollar, very minimal utility in that sense not to mention high implied transaction costs and high risk.

Yep With dollars you will loose money if you just sit on them. Bitcoin is only viewed as an investment because people see it filling the above desires.

The dollar is not really an investment because it's value is in utility/representation. Bitcoin has nothing on the dollar.

[–]schristoph92 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I don't think you really know all that much about bitcoin... While I do think that a large portion of bitcoin's current value may be speculative, it has both intrinsic value (the electricity and time put into solving mathematical functions to "mine" bitcoins) and massive utility value (financial instruments, security, escrow, all sorts of things that can be linked to the bitcoin protocol). That said, I may be in the looney group that advocates cryptocurrency (not just bitcoin), and other means of individual ownership of the product of my labor, as a total replacement to "traditional" banking and a solution to the gross violence that is government.

[–]MistakeNotDotDotDot 0 ポイント1 ポイント

it has both intrinsic value (the electricity and time put into solving mathematical functions to "mine" bitcoins)

The fact that $X was spent in creating something doesn't mean that it has any intrinsic value.

[–]mrspiffy12 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

it has both intrinsic value (the electricity and time put into solving mathematical functions to "mine" bitcoins)

No. Just no. Not as an investment. All value based on this is speculative. Effort put into something does not equal value.

massive utility value (financial instruments, security, escrow, all sorts of things that can be linked to the bitcoin protocol).

Utility value is almost nil. You can't use it for anything. Everything else you mentioned is tied to the dollar, but you have to deal with the insane risk/transaction cost associated. Just use the dollar.

to the gross violence that is government

Lol, ancaps.

[–]schristoph92 [score hidden]

Please explain to me what intrinsic value is, as it seems like is am confused on the concept. And in terms of utility value, none of the things I mentioned are tied to the dollar... Sure, you can do those things with the dollar, and they might be more widespread in state governed markets, but they are not solely done in the dollar. That is the main point to bitcoin, it's not tied to some other centrally planned currency.

Before you "lol ancaps" do a little bit of research on the things you are dismissing as useless.

[–]mrspiffy12 [score hidden]

Please explain to me what intrinsic value is

Fair enough, perhaps intrinsic is a poor way to put it. A stock has value because it represents a share of ownership in a company. The pricing of the stock represents a variety of things, most commonly future cash flows, but depending on philosophy and circumstances, it can reflect things like the value of the companies assets etc.

What I'm trying to say, is that there's nothing about bitcoin itself which makes it valuable. It represents no store of value, it has no utility in generating cash flows or revenue streams etc., it can't be consumed. It also has very little utility in this sense as well.

It's only real use is as some sort of alternate e-currency - which would make it a poor investment, yet it's hyped and speculated off of as if it was a worthwhile investment. (of course, it also currently has extremely limited use as an e-currency as well... so...) You want to use it to buy.... whatever novelty items you want to buy with bitcoin? Go ahead. I can do the same far easier and with far less risk using cash. If you want to speculate off of it to make money? You're going to have a seriously hard time unless you're smart enough to dump everything you have on the next poor sod before it goes to shit.

And in terms of utility value, none of the things I mentioned are tied to the dollar...

Well, I'm not entirely sure you know what the things you mentioned actually are. Regardless, you can be involved in each of those elements with the dollar, and you do so far more securely and with a bare fraction of the risks and implied transactions costs. Bitcoin is far worse to use, so why bother?

That is the main point to bitcoin, it's not tied to some other centrally planned currency.

And if you want to take that absurd risk for little to no gain due to your ideals, have at it. I'm just saying it's probably a bad idea.

Before you "lol ancaps" do a little bit of research on the things you are dismissing as useless.

You just dismissed thousands of years of human social and political development with that "lel, government is gross violence" nonsense. Ancaps may have some legitimate complaints or ideals which I'm sympathetic to, but in general, you just end up spouting nonsense.

[–]PoliticalDissidents -1 ポイント0 ポイント

I agree that bitcoin won't be a replacement to fiat. Though it will change traditional banking it isn't a kind to paypal. With paypal they hold my money. With bitcoin I have the entire ability to hold my money in full reserve securely with several encrypted backups. No one can freeze it or seize it. I like that.

Also if you live in a country with hyperinflation Bitcoin is a lot better as a currency than the Zimbabwean dollar as the supply of bitcoin is fixed.

Bank accounts cost fees to use bitcoin doesn't so it is a payment network but it's implications are far huger than you realize.

[–]Krivvan 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Similar to Paypal in regards to utility and how it may be treated, not with how it works.

And I understand that it's possible that the effect will be far larger, but that's not one of my expectations in at least the short term.

[–]PoliticalDissidents 0 ポイント1 ポイント

My point is paypal only serve as a payment network. I do not ever intend to hold my money there nor does anyone. Yet plenty will hold money in bitcoin as it serves two purposes.

[–]PoliticalDissidents 0 ポイント1 ポイント

I think I'll keep my nice federally insured deposits.

Why do you need federally insured deposits? Oh right, because your bank runs a fractional reserve and could default any day now.

In the mean time if you hold cash you won't face this problem. But cash can burn in a fire, you can loose it with your wallet. Bitcoin you can keep it safe, secure, password encrypted all without trusting a 3rd party holding it independent of any bank or nation state. It can be held on a USB stick which never interacted with the internet. It can be held on a paper wallet also.

[–]mrspiffy12 -1 ポイント0 ポイント

Why do you need federally insured deposits? Oh right, because your bank runs a fractional reserve and could default any day now.

Very wrong, plus even with banks and the issues they have had, they are FAR FAR more secure than bitcoin in so many ways.

fractional reserve

Fractional reserve banking is one of the greatest capital innovations in the history of finance. Join a credit union or invest your money yourself if you're so concerned over the minimal risk of default.

Bitcoin you can keep it safe, secure, password encrypted all without trusting a 3rd party holding it independent of any bank or nation state.

Yes, and then you assume all of the risk yourself (and the risk is far more substantial than with a bank for a large variety of reasons). One of the points of banks is so you don't HAVE to assume the risk yourself. So you don't have to hide your money in your mattress.

[–]Lookin4Coons -5 ポイント-4 ポイント

when will you sheep learn?

[–]cdelongo 5 ポイント6 ポイント

When BTC doesn't fluctuate $500 in 6 months and $50 a day.

[–]Krivvan 0 ポイント1 ポイント

Please shut up, you aren't helping Bitcoin's image whatsoever.

[–]Lookin4Coons 0 ポイント1 ポイント

geez you guys are so sensitive. it's a touchy subject try and just dont mention it